[ringo]

Great to see all the recent political discussion here. Anyone want to weigh in on India v/s Pakistan? I'll be back after work to see if there are any takers.
Agree or disagree, I think the dialog is important. Expressing (and defending) our views makes us examine what we really think.

So, what's the real problem here, and how would you fix it?

[daimoni]

.

[Agasthya]

Originally posted by ringo:
<STRONG>Great to see all the recent political discussion here. Anyone want to weigh in on India v/s Pakistan? I'll be back after work to see if there are any takers.
Agree or disagree, I think the dialog is important. Expressing (and defending) our views makes us examine what we really think.

So, what's the real problem here, and how would you fix it?</STRONG>

I'm pretty biased on this (I am originally from India), but what the Pakistanis are doing doesn't seem to make sense at all. They didn't claim the land in the split and now they claim that it rightfully belongs to them to reap the financial benefits of Kashmir? Also, that governement encouraged terrorism in Pakistan isn't helping their cause.

[argod]

The real problem is that Muslims just like the Christians do not
respect hindus. For some reason the one god concept really goes to their head. Until they acknowledge their past history of genocide in
the land of the hindus. Pakistan thinks it is an extension of the mughal empire. Mughal empire is long gone. Never again.

Until recently, this was the policy of the US.
When she was US ambassador to the UN, Mrs. Jean Kirkpatrick once said that "the break-up of India is one of the goals of the American foreign policy." Patrick Moynihan, who had held the same job, said more recently, "After the break-up of the Soviet Union, the artificial state India is also bound to break up."
Only reason this is changing is because the Indian diaspora in US is
starting to pay off the politicians. If it does not change, they will
exercise their material power.

Pakistan think it can compete with India. We will do what the US did to USSR, bankrupt them in any weapons race.

Most in this forum do not have historical knowledge to make an intelligent comment. So let this thread end here.

[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: argod ]

[TNproud2b]

Most of us don't use proper grammar, either, but we let you keep posting.


Back to the question at hand: The US should nuke Afghanistan and India before it escalates into a real problem over there.

[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: TNproud2b ]

[argod]

Originally posted by TNproud2b:
<STRONG>Most of us don't use proper grammar, either, but we let you keep posting.


Back to the question at hand: The US should nuke Afghanistan and India before it escalates into a real problem over there.

[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: TNproud2b ]</STRONG>

You better kick them out of US first. Better bomb before you loose your status quo. You don't even have guts to bomb North Korea, or Iran.

[TomCondon]

Argot,

How do Christians not respect Hindus? I was raised Catholic and do not recall ANYTHING even remotely anti-Hindu. Do not make such broad generalizations.

I tend to think that American policy is pretty balanced between the two countries. Develop better ties with India and try to help the Pakistanis to put down the extremists.

And above all, discouage these two from making war with the nukes!

[TNproud2b]

whoa.

You're the first to say the US wouldn't have the nuts to bomb another country.

History proves you to be very wrong.

[argod]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>Argot,

How do Christians not respect Hindus? I was raised Catholic and do not recall ANYTHING even remotely anti-Hindu. Do not make such broad generalizations.

I tend to think that American policy is pretty balanced between the two countries. Develop better ties with India and try to help the Pakistanis to put down the extremists.

And above all, discouage these two from making war with the nukes!</STRONG>

You need to go talk to your pope. What the f are the missionaries doing
in India when it is illegal to do so. What the f was Mother Teresa doing
in Calcutta. I do not want to recount entire history of India vis-a-vis christendom since 1500.

[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: argod ]

[argod]

Originally posted by TNproud2b:
<STRONG>whoa.

You're the first to say the US wouldn't have the nuts to bomb another country.

History proves you to be very wrong.</STRONG>

So why did the US not bomb pakistan. When the Bush has said we will
attack anyone helping the terrorists. There is plenty evidence for it.

[TomCondon]

Originally posted by argod:
<STRONG>

You need to go talk to your pope. What the f are the missionaries doing
in India when it is illegal to do so. What the f was Mother Teresa doing
in Calcutta. I do not want to recount entire history of India vis-a-vis since 1500.</STRONG>

I am sure the Pope is too busy to see me.

I am surprised that you do not have freedom of religion in India. I always thought that India was an advanced society. I alway say: "Let the free market decide".

[TomCondon]

Originally posted by argod:
<STRONG>

So why did the US not bomb pakistan. When the Bush has said we will
attack anyone helping the terrorists. There is plenty evidence for it.</STRONG>

There are certainly people in Pakistan helping terrorist. I am sure there are Muslims in India helping terrorists. By your logic, we should bomb India.

I am glad you are not running our miltary.

[argod]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>

I am sure the Pope is too busy to see me.

I am surprised that you do not have freedom of religion in India. I always thought that India was an advanced society. I alway say: "Let the free market decide".

</STRONG>

There is freedom of religion just not missionarism.
Not through coercion and by denigrating the other religion.
Coming from someone who has not clue of other religion but want them
to be converted any way.

[argod]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>

There are certainly people in Pakistan helping terrorist. I am sure there are Muslims in India helping terrorists. By your logic, we should bomb India.

I am glad you are not running our miltary.</STRONG>

It was not just the people but the government policy. Obviously
you don't know the details to understand my logic.

[cognoscenti]

It is in my opinion wrong for any subscriber of any religion to enter into another civilization simply for the reason of converting people to their ways. However, religions have a sort of 'natural selection'�i.e., only the ones which are strong, arrogant, and agressively pursue domination and conversion. This is just a simple way to test which religions survive and thus no powerful religion can ever be truly 'peace-loving' as to become powerful you cannot simply conquer the world with a butter knife ...

[ringo]

I'm a little biased on the side of India as well, I have friends in the Indian community in NJ who I've spoken with about this in the past. I'm afraid that these two countries will end up nukeing the hell out of each other.
I'm suprised that the US isn't more concerned with Pakistan's nuclear capabilities given it's support of terror in the past/present.

However, religions have a sort of 'natural selection'�i.e., only the ones which are strong, arrogant, and agressively pursue domination and conversion.

Hinduism is far older then Christianity and Islam. It's roots were aggressive, but It's done OK for a few thousand years without being too agressive (Seiks aside).

[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: ringo ]

[argod]

Originally posted by cognoscenti:
<STRONG>It is in my opinion wrong for any subscriber of any religion to enter into another civilization simply for the reason of converting people to their ways. However, religions have a sort of 'natural selection'�i.e., only the ones which are strong, arrogant, and agressively pursue domination and conversion. This is just a simple way to test which religions survive and thus no powerful religion can ever be truly 'peace-loving' as to become powerful you cannot simply conquer the world with a butter knife ...</STRONG>

Or Is the weak religions who combine with politics and use aggression to
pitch their weak ideas that could not stand on their own. I am glad you don't buy into the separation of church and state because there is no such thing in US foreign policy.

[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: argod ]

[cognoscenti]

Originally posted by argod:
<STRONG>

Or Is the weak religions who combine with politics and use aggression to
pitch their weak ideas that could not stand on their own. I am glad you don't buy into the separation of church and state because there is no such thing in US foreign policy.

[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: argod ]</STRONG>

I agree...the United States is most definitely a Christian state. Our leaders are all Christian (and no non-Christians ever have a chance), our anthems and songs reflect it, our state-sponsored prayers reflect it, and of course our foreign policy is based upon it. Call it secularism if you like but just because our government is very good about letting other religions have their freedom means nothing in the way of separation of church and state.

[MacGorilla]

Both sides need to realize that Kashmir will not be an easy problem to solve:

First, India Claims it, Pakistan claims it. China claims parts of it. There are groups in Kashmir that want to be part of India, part of Pakistan and some who want to be independent.

I have no doubts both Pakistan and India are sponsporing terrorist groups in the region.

My solution: Let the voters of Kashmir decide between India, Pakistan or Independence.

[TomCondon]

Originally posted by argod:
<STRONG>

There is freedom of religion just not missionarism.
Not through coercion and by denigrating the other religion.
Coming from someone who has not clue of other religion but want them
to be converted any way.</STRONG>

Now I am not very actively religious, but how exactly can missionaries coerce free people in India to "submit to Christ"? Maybe these missionaries, who help feed the very poor, like Mother Threresa, can convince the poor that the generosity inherent in their religion points to a better way. Or at least better from their viewpoint.

Perhaps if India did a better job feeding their poor, the spread of Christianity would be halted in its tracks. For me, people should be free to choose their religion and promote their religion. Unless, of course its scientology. Now thats evil! Jest kidding. Sort of... Uh oh.. Tom Cruise and John Travolta are pounding on my front door!

[TomCondon]

Originally posted by argod:
<STRONG>

Or Is the weak religions who combine with politics and use aggression to
pitch their weak ideas that could not stand on their own. I am glad you don't buy into the separation of church and state because there is no such thing in US foreign policy.

[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: argod ]</STRONG>

You are smoking crack if you think the Pope or Jerry Falwell run American foreign policy.

[theolein]

Most in this forum do not have historical knowledge to make an intelligent comment

I must admit that I was wrong. The US must be an amazingly free country to allow people with such incredibly arrogant, narrow points of view, such as those in Bellevue, WA, the freedom to express themselves.

[TomCondon]

scenti:
<STRONG>

I agree...the United States is most definitely a Christian state. Our leaders are all Christian (and no non-Christians ever have a chance), our anthems and songs reflect it, our state-sponsored prayers reflect it, and of course our foreign policy is based upon it. Call it secularism if you like but just because our government is very good about letting other religions have their freedom means nothing in the way of separation of church and state.</STRONG>[/QUOTE]

As the French would say, you are being simplistic. The majority of Americans are Christians, but by and large, our foreign policy is pretty secular. Otherwise, the US would do much more to prevent Christians from being slaughtered in the Sudan or from being persecuted in China.

There are many philosophies in our law and culture that are derived, in part, from the traditions of Christianity. There are many more influences than that. You must look a the whole of the Judeo-Christain influences, as well as those of the Enlightenment to see where our American beliefs come from.

America is by far the most secular nation in the world, apart from the remaining communists countries. You want religion-based politics, go to Iran.

[cognoscenti]

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
<STRONG>Both sides need to realize that Kashmir will not be an easy problem to solve:

First, India Claims it, Pakistan claims it. China claims parts of it. There are groups in Kashmir that want to be part of India, part of Pakistan and some who want to be independent.

I have no doubts both Pakistan and India are sponsporing terrorist groups in the region.

My solution: Let the voters of Kashmir decide between India, Pakistan or Independence.</STRONG>

I don't see how letting the Kashmiris decide themselves could possibly help�you pointed out yourself how diverse the groups of Kashmir are; certainly you know that if the majority went one way there would be at least enough people who disagreed to restart the violence.

[TomCondon]

Originally posted by theolein:
<STRONG>

I must admit that I was wrong. The US must be an amazingly free country to allow people with such incredibly arrogant, narrow points of view, such as those in Bellevue, WA, the freedom to express themselves.</STRONG>

Yep! We let pretty much any idiot open their mouth. Ain't America great? But do not blame him for his postings, I think 394 days a year of rain does something bad to your brain. Also, living so close to MicroSquish must destroy your ability to think clearly.

[argod]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>

Now I am not very actively religious, but how exactly can missionaries coerce free people in India to "submit to Christ"? Maybe these missionaries, who help feed the very poor, like Mother Threresa, can convince the poor that the generosity inherent in their religion points to a better way. Or at least better from their viewpoint.

Perhaps if India did a better job feeding their poor, the spread of Christianity would be halted in its tracks. For me, people should be free to choose their religion and promote their religion. Unless, of course its scientology. Now thats evil! Jest kidding. Sort of... Uh oh.. Tom Cruise and John Travolta are pounding on my front door!</STRONG>

the word is propaganda, you should be familiar with it since you see it
everyday in your TV. WTF is inherent generosity, Christians were real generous with Native Americans, Africans, Chinese, Incas, Aztecs, Mayans, and other. By choosing christianity they did not become automatically civilized, rich, or powerful. All you have to do is look at the current state of Philippines, Ethiopia, south america, south africa, and other.

you don't have a better viewpoint. If you actually learn the other side. you would change your religion, not that I want you to do so. Perhaps if you get off your high horse, you might actually know something.

I don't want to be your teacher. Go study for your self. This is not very
fruitful because you are not bringing anything to the table

[argod]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>

Yep! We let pretty much any idiot open their mouth. Ain't America great? But do not blame him for his postings, I think 394 days a year of rain does something bad to your brain. Also, living so close to MicroSquish must destroy your ability to think clearly.</STRONG>

All you know how to do is attack rhetoric a.k.a flame and call names. No one has contradicted the substance of my message.

[argod]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>

You are smoking crack if you think the Pope or Jerry Falwell run American foreign policy.</STRONG>

Go call the state department and see if they contradict me.

Where is KellyHogan when you need him.

[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: argod ]

[TomCondon]

Originally posted by argod:
<STRONG>

the word is propaganda, you should be familiar with it since you see it
everyday in your TV. WTF is inherent generosity, Christians were real generous with Native Americans, Africans, Chinese, Incas, Aztecs, Mayans, and other. By choosing christianity they did not become automatically civilized, rich, or powerful. All you have to do is look at the current state of Philippines, Ethiopia, south america, south africa, and other.

you don't have a better viewpoint. If you actually learn the other side. you would change your religion, not that I want you to do so. Perhaps if you get off your high horse, you might actually know something.

I don't want to be your teacher. Go study for your self. This is not very
fruitful because you are not bringing anything to the table</STRONG>

Yes the word is propaganda. I suspect that reading lots of proaganda is how you developed your world view. You use the word Christians like it was some sports team. History is much more complicated than that.

Christianity did wonders for Europe in the long run. Sure there was war, some religious. But considering the state of Europe in the year 1 A.D., they came a long way with this horrible religion.

What is the other side? I had no idea things were so clear cut. I have no horse. You seem to have a really big chip on your shoulder. Take a Xanax and relax. You will live longer.

[TomCondon]

Originally posted by argod:
<STRONG>

Go call the state department and see if they contradict me.

Where is KellyHogan when you need him.

[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: argod ]</STRONG>

I just got off the phone with the state department. The priest I spoke with said that in no way was US foreign policy being run by the Pope. He also reported that the covert missionary operation in India is going well. The bible publishers are very excited about the emerging markets. He told me that if I said ten Hail Marys and three Our Fathers, I wouldn't have to pay taxes this year. Praise Jesus.... I mean God Bless Ammerica!

[cognoscenti]

I fail to see how Christianity was a good thing for Europe. If you understand history even in the vaguest of terms, ancient Europe went from a marvellous pinnacle of culture and art in the Greek Golden Age and Hellenistic Periods to a great empire in the Roman days to a backwards, feudal, religious tangle of tribes in the Dark Ages following the fall of Rome. Next to no progress was made for the next several hundred years. Things had to be rediscovered. I don't mean to sound like a teacher but thinking that Christianity was a golden light of prosperity over Europe is seriously misguided thinking ...

[argod]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>

Yes the word is propaganda. I suspect that reading lots of proaganda is how you developed your world view. You use the word Christians like it was some sports team. History is much more complicated than that.

Christianity did wonders for Europe in the long run. Sure there was war, some religious. But considering the state of Europe in the year 1 A.D., they came a long way with this horrible religion.

What is the other side? I had no idea things were so clear cut. I have no horse. You seem to have a really big chip on your shoulder. Take a Xanax and relax. You will live longer.</STRONG>

Oh ya know history is all of sudden complicated when it is written by West
for the West.

Did I even mention europe. I gave the example of all non-white countries
that converted to Christianity and how the west was generous with them.
You did not contradict that example of generosity with your example of europe.

Don't tell me to relax. It is none of your concern.

[cognoscenti]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>

I just got off the phone with the state department. The priest I spoke with said that in no way was US foreign policy being run by the Pope. He also reported that the covert missionary operation in India is going well. The bible publishers are very excited about the emerging markets. He told me that if I said ten Hail Marys and three Our Fathers, I wouldn't have to pay taxes this year. Praise Jesus.... I mean God Bless Ammerica!</STRONG>

Damn ... I don't get nearly that much honestly when I speak to John Ashcroft


* Yes, I know he's not in State. But Colin Powell's not so bad of a guy.

[TomCondon]

Originally posted by cognoscenti:
<STRONG>I fail to see how Christianity was a good thing for Europe. If you understand history even in the vaguest of terms, ancient Europe went from a marvellous pinnacle of culture and art in the Greek Golden Age and Hellenistic Periods to a great empire in the Roman days to a backwards, feudal, religious tangle of tribes in the Dark Ages following the fall of Rome. Next to no progress was made for the next several hundred years. Things had to be rediscovered. I don't mean to sound like a teacher but thinking that Christianity was a golden light of prosperity over Europe is seriously misguided thinking ...</STRONG>

Rome and Greece, the good old days. Infanticide, brutal wars where women and children were slaughtered. Slaves. Whole conquered nations of them. Damn that Christianity! It ruined all of the good times!

[Macfreak7]

arrr, for a second i thought theres probably a cricket discussion... baah.


All that India was asking before we could resume "talks" with Pakistan was that they should act on the camps and terrorist groups sitting there in parts of Kashmir and Pakistan, and where ever else - that are killing innocent people.
IF the two countries do go to war, all we have to do is cut off their water supply.

i would type more, but i gotta go eat.

{btw, the recent spur of religious violence has been rumored to be blamed on the ISI.}

[argod]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>

Rome and Greece, the good old days. Infanticide, brutal wars where women and children were slaughtered. Slaves. Whole conquered nations of them. Damn that Christianity! It ruined all of the good times!</STRONG>

Is is very convenient that Christianity is declared Good where
as everyone else is evil. Since the West wrote the history. It is
very surprising that Romans were so evil. But not too much evil to steal their ideas on democracy, technology, philosophy.

Hurry up and change the Bible where is says that weak/meek shall inherit
the earth because next time it won't be white christians.

[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: argod ]

[TNproud2b]

I believe that was 'meek' not 'weak'.

[argod]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>

I just got off the phone with the state department. The priest I spoke with said that in no way was US foreign policy being run by the Pope. He also reported that the covert missionary operation in India is going well. The bible publishers are very excited about the emerging markets. He told me that if I said ten Hail Marys and three Our Fathers, I wouldn't have to pay taxes this year. Praise Jesus.... I mean God Bless Ammerica!</STRONG>

I am in a secret mission too. Before long you will be cursing the day US opened the immigration policy. You think that jews control everything,
wait till we take over.

[argod]

Originally posted by theolein:
<STRONG>

I must admit that I was wrong. The US must be an amazingly free country to allow people with such incredibly arrogant, narrow points of view, such as those in Bellevue, WA, the freedom to express themselves.</STRONG>

How is this arrogant and narrow to say to understand the problem, you
need to know what happened in the past. All you get is platitude.

What, everyone in Bellevue is suppose to be a Microsoftee or something.

From our last debate on this exact subject, you did not. Freedom of expression, you must be confusing with some other thread.

[Face Ache]

At what point do the informed people start posting?

[argod]

Originally posted by Face Ache:
<STRONG>At what point do the informed people start posting?</STRONG>

any time they have something intelligent to say.

[TomCondon]

Originally posted by argod:
<STRONG>

I am in a secret mission too. Before long you will be cursing the day US opened the immigration policy. You think that jews control everything,
wait till we take over.</STRONG>

I assume you are Indian. My technical lead is Indian. Another coworker on our team is Indian. All the Indians I have met are intelligent nice people. I do not think Jews control everything. I think Americans control everything in this country. Some are Jewish, some are Christian, some are woman, some are Indian, some, probably not enough, are black. This is America. Understand?

[theolein]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>

I assume you are Indian. My technical lead is Indian. Another coworker on our team is Indian. All the Indians I have met are intelligent nice people. I do not think Jews control everything. I think Americans control everything in this country. Some are Jewish, some are Christian, some are woman, some are Indian, some, probably not enough, are black. This is America. Understand?</STRONG>

Man is Bellevue, WA, some kind of breeding ground for the hindu version of Al Qaida?

[Macfreak7]

Originally posted by theolein:
<STRONG>

Man is Bellevue, WA, some kind of breeding ground for the hindu version of Al Qaida?</STRONG>

i cant believe i just read that.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Macfreak7:
<STRONG>

i cant believe i just read that.</STRONG>

It was bad, and I'm sorry. I've been trolling quite a bit tonight and if you read Argod's rants further back in this thread, you'll see why I got bothered with his endless lunatic ranting.

[TNproud2b]

Originally posted by theolein:
<STRONG>

It was bad, and I'm sorry. I've been trolling quite a bit tonight and if you read Argod's rants further back in this thread, you'll see why I got bothered with his endless lunatic ranting.</STRONG>

good grief...don't apologize!

That was the funniest thing I've seen you write all week.

I was starting to think you had no sense of humor.

[argod]

This is for the Indians in this forum:

- What does "Hindu Kush" (the mountain range) means - It means Hindu massacre.
- How many temples were destroyed by the muslims - 10,000+
- How many masque destroyed by the hindus (which was previously a temple) - 1
- How many died in the Hindu Holocaust - 80 million+.
- Who created the Aryan Invasion Theory - missionaries. Even though dis-proved, still not one history book has changed.
- Who coined the term caste - portuguese.
- Who wrote the history being taught in Indian schools. Western Scholars (a.k.a. missionaries, marxists).

- Oldest Civilization, does the history book say so.
- India had democracy before the greeks. Does any history books acknowledge it.
- Is secularism needed when hinduism allows all views.
- What secular country allows muslim code in their laws.
- It was british plan to create an Indian elite sympathetic to England and not Indian civilization. It still exists today.
- Any other country gave their territory to an invader bent on their destruction.


Don't let the Apologists win.

[ringo]

Um, I need an education here. If the Aryan Invasion Theory is wrong, why are northern Indians lightskinned compared to the southern? And why are the higher castes lighter then the lower?

Just curious. Agreed with most of the last post.

[argod]

Originally posted by TomCondon:
<STRONG>

I assume you are Indian. My technical lead is Indian. Another coworker on our team is Indian. All the Indians I have met are intelligent nice people. I do not think Jews control everything. I think Americans control everything in this country. Some are Jewish, some are Christian, some are woman, some are Indian, some, probably not enough, are black. This is America. Understand?</STRONG>

I don't give a shit how many Indians you know. It does not matter, I don't care what platitude you use to describe America.
My comments reflect your defense of missionarism and ignorance of pope's view on hinduism. Or even the statements made by the state department
regarding missionarism.
I understand perfectly. Why don't you try converting them.
Make my day.

[Agasthya]

Originally posted by theolein:
<STRONG>

Man is Bellevue, WA, some kind of breeding ground for the hindu version of Al Qaida?</STRONG>

um. ok.

You're comparing argod's posts about Christianity's dominance in the world and the India/Pakistan conflict with running planes into buildings.

Honestly, even if you were trying to be funny, it was a shitty job.

I have a question for all your Christians out there. If you saw a commercial on TV with Hindu activists running around the United States giving poor people money/food/shelter and saying "If you accept this, you agree that Hinduism is the greatest religion and you will worship Ganesha as God and denounce any affiliation to Christianity." would you not get angry? Even if there was freedom of religion...

This is basically what is going on India and other non-Christian parts of the world with so called "missionairies". You have every right to think that your religion is superior to all, but why in the world would you tell people that they can only accept this food if they agree that Jesus Christ is the savior. Almost seems like a good portion of the world was fed Christianity.

And I have a quick question about the Middle Ages/Crusades. What exactly was the point of the Crusades? I'm really not educated on this, so I'd really appreciate if someone can clear it up for me. From what I know, Kings and Knights ran around the world telling people that if they didn't convert to Christiantiy then God gave them the right to kill them. Am I totally off base here?

Thanks.