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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > And she's back! (Doctor Who Season 9, not Ca$h)

And she's back! (Doctor Who Season 9, not Ca$h) (Page 2)
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subego
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Jul 18, 2017, 10:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Well, regeneration itself was made up to keep the show alive. I don't think it's any big deal.
What can be thrown in without breaking everything three seasons in is different when the show is over 30 seasons.
( Last edited by subego; Jul 18, 2017 at 11:26 AM. )
     
Thorzdad
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Jul 18, 2017, 11:06 AM
 
Meh. Once regeneration was invented, there's never been a defensible reason for not having a female or minority Doctor beyond the conservative corporate culture of those times. It didn't happen because the culture wouldn't hear of it.

It's sci-fi/fantasy, fer chrissakes. By definition, anything is possible. That the Doctor can regenerate into a different sex fits right in. In my mind, it makes the character even fuller and deep. It breaks nothing. It only adds to the possibilities.
     
subego
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Jul 18, 2017, 11:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Meh. Once regeneration was invented, there's never been a defensible reason for not having a female or minority Doctor beyond the conservative corporate culture of those times. It didn't happen because the culture wouldn't hear of it.

It's sci-fi/fantasy, fer chrissakes. By definition, anything is possible. That the Doctor can regenerate into a different sex fits right in. In my mind, it makes the character even fuller and deep. It breaks nothing. It only adds to the possibilities.
This is why I said I'm fine with the idea. I agree with all your observations right up to whether it breaks things.

It breaks the years of world building, which is still world building, even if it's corporate who decided what bricks got used. Corporate gave them grey, so they built a greystone. It was a greystone for decades. It's a brownstone now, but it sure looks like a greystone over the hundred-plus episodes I've seen.


As an aside, in terms of the suits wrecking things, one need look no further than the pilot for An Unearthly Child. So much better than what they settled for. Really quite the revelation about how progressive Lambert tried to be. In fact, I have a sneaking suspicion the plan was to stealthily turn Susan the lead.
     
Paco500
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Jul 18, 2017, 01:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Stuff
Dude.

A few things.

1. The BBC is not a regular broadcaster. They are publicly funded and by their charter they are required to serve the public interest as well as provide entertaining content. Doctor Who was originally commissioned with the charter to be educational as well as entertaining. Ok, so they borked the educational things for more than a half a century, but by making the new Doctor a female that are serving the public interest of roughly 50% of the population that they have not addressed until now. Beyond that, viewership has dropped for D.W. This shakeup will get more eyeballs- hopefully they will sustain them.

2. How are you so confident they will not work the new regeneration into the existing framework flawlessly? Sure they could screw it up and make it clumsy, but all we know at this point is the person who will take on the role. The 'reality' of Doctor Who has always shifted to fit the plot (see capabilities of the Sonic Screwdriver, etc), and there is no reason to suspect that with some good writing, this regeneration will fit perfectly into established norms. We already know a regeneration can be 'guided' to suit the needs of the time (see War Doctor)- there is an out right there.

You are sitting on both sides of the fence, and I get it suits your persona, but it's weak sauce. If it does't bother you, don't bitch about it. If it does, own it. But own it with logic.
( Last edited by Paco500; Jul 18, 2017 at 04:39 PM. )
     
starman
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Jul 18, 2017, 01:57 PM
 
I'm stealing your "own it with logic"

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Paco500
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Jul 18, 2017, 02:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
I'm stealing your "own it with logic"
You've already stolen my heart (on several occasions), so why not?
     
andi*pandi
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Jul 18, 2017, 03:10 PM
 
awww.

Given the Romana regen scene where she briefly was an alien, I think Time Lords and Ladies (yes they used the term) have the ability to regenerate however. It does raise interesting questions about their families and how they propagate, which we've never really seen. If Susan is the doctor's Granddaughter, he must have had children in his first regeneration... but none since in thousands of years. Could fertility only limited to whatever you're born as? Or do Time Lords do some genetic incubator voodoo?

Anyway, if the doctor and the master are any indication, forcing your kids to face down the abyss at the age of 8, well... not nurturing parents regardless of gender.

She could be interesting. Let's hope the writing supports that.
     
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Jul 18, 2017, 05:08 PM
 
Given that both the remaining Timelords have gender swapped close together, its hardly unthinkable that there is some external influence causing it to happen (or could be) as a plot point. Some of the lead up even hinted towards this maybe. Some species in real life have been known to switch gender to female when there are no females left in order to continue to propagate. Could be as simple as that.
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Doc HM  (op)
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Jul 18, 2017, 06:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
awww.

Given the Romana regen scene where she briefly was an alien, I think Time Lords and Ladies (yes they used the term) have the ability to regenerate however. It does raise interesting questions about their families and how they propagate, which we've never really seen. If Susan is the doctor's Granddaughter, he must have had children in his first regeneration... but none since in thousands of years. Could fertility only limited to whatever you're born as? Or do Time Lords do some genetic incubator voodoo?

Anyway, if the doctor and the master are any indication, forcing your kids to face down the abyss at the age of 8, well... not nurturing parents regardless of gender.

She could be interesting. Let's hope the writing supports that.
Time lords are born in "looms" and grow up in Ling houses away from their parents. According to the books anyway.

I don't think going female breaks any existing rules. Was bound to happen, works for many of the fans as well as giving the young girls a positive role model. I'm all for it in every way. Apart from not liking it myself personally. Which is annoying.
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starman
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Jul 18, 2017, 07:40 PM
 
Yeah, if you're going to talk about canon, then this scene makes regenerating seem a bit flippant.


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subego
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Jul 19, 2017, 01:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Dude.

A few things.

1. The BBC is not a regular broadcaster. They are publicly funded and by their charter they are required to serve the public interest as well as provide entertaining content. Doctor Who was originally commissioned with the charter to be educational as well as entertaining. Ok, so they borked the educational things for more than a half a century, but by making the new Doctor a female that are serving the public interest of roughly 50% of the population that they have not addressed until now. Beyond that, viewership has dropped for D.W. This shakeup will get more eyeballs- hopefully they will sustain them.

2. How are you so confident they will not work the new regeneration into the existing framework flawlessly? Sure they could screw it up and make it clumsy, but all we know at this point is the person who will take on the role. The 'reality' of Doctor Who has always shifted to fit the plot (see capabilities of the Sonic Screwdriver, etc), and there is no reason to suspect that with some good writing, this regeneration will fit perfectly into established norms. We already know a regeneration can be 'guided' to suit the needs of the time (see War Doctor)- there is an out right there.

You are sitting on both sides of the fence, and I get it suits your persona, but it's weak sauce. If it does't bother you, don't bitch about it. If it does, own it. But own it with logic.
It looks like I managed to convey exactly the opposite of what I was going for.

I don't object to the idea of a female Doctor in any way. I like my science fiction turbo-progressive. That's one of the things it's for.

Since these are my politics, as a writer I'm going to want to interject them. When presented with the scenario of a species who can swap genders, this isn't merely going to be the oft-used trope of an advanced society leaving petty gender squabbles behind, it's one where those squabbles don't even make sense anymore. That's where I want it to go. That's what I want people to put in their pipe and smoke. Tear it all the **** down.

This is where my problem is. If I do that, I break a ton of shit, so chances are they won't let me. I'm going to need to play it on a continuum between it being "unusual" (q.v. Waragainstsleep's idea), and just left unexplained.

To put it another way, my beef is this idea is dynamite, and it's going to get nerfed into a firecracker.
     
starman
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Jul 19, 2017, 03:05 AM
 
Well, Patrick Troughton just pwned all that.


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subego
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Jul 19, 2017, 06:46 AM
 
Except for the part where no one really did anything with it until after he was dead.
     
Paco500
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Jul 19, 2017, 08:04 AM
 
Subego-

Apologies on not understanding your position. That being said, I still take issue with your assertion that it will not be gracefully handled or does not fit the established mythos as you nor I have any idea how they are going to handle it.

The only thing we know is name of the actor they have hired to portray the Doctor. That is it.
( Last edited by Paco500; Jul 19, 2017 at 03:59 PM. )
     
subego
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Jul 19, 2017, 12:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Subego-

Apologies on nit understanding your position. That being said, I still take issue with your assertion that it will not be gracefully handled or does not fit the established mythos as you nor I have any idea how they are going to handle it.

The only thing we know is name of the actor they have hired to portray the Doctor. That is it.
No apologies needed, my point was expressed poorly, and perhaps not even fully formed beyond a gut feeling when originally made.

And that's the thing... I'm not worried about the grace or fitting established mythos. It's not a hard job. Not explaining it at all even works in that regard, and it could be argued to be the most graceful choice and one which best fits the mythos.

I'm arguing there's an inherent tension between established canon and squeezing maximum progressiveness out of the idea. They'll do fine with canon, and hence not do as well with the progressive part.
     
Doc HM  (op)
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Yesterday, 06:49 PM
 
I also feel that there's not as much "progressiveness" in casting a generic BBC newsreaderalike middle class woman as people are saying.

I was more excited back when Tilda Swinton was a favourite.
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subego
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Yesterday, 10:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
I also feel that there's not as much "progressiveness" in casting a generic BBC newsreaderalike middle class woman as people are saying.

I was more excited back when Tilda Swinton was a favourite.
Are you arguing Tilda is a more progressive choice, or would be a better Doctor?

If it's the latter, ****, let's throw Cate and Meryl into the ring.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Today, 06:40 AM
 
Dr Who jumps the shark. Bleh, I'm out.
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Doc HM  (op)
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Today, 06:51 AM
 
A more progressive choice would have been an actor who didn't look like a safe middle class BBC clone-a-like. Female actors are still squeezed (literally) into a one shape/look fits all. A normal looking, normal sized woman.
And yes I know hats not Tilda Swindon who looks like she last ate in 1965. And is pretty well posh. But she's at least an "interesting" character.
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Today, 06:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Dr Who jumps the shark. Bleh, I'm out.
I'm sure the show has legs. It just needs better care taken with the scripts. The last two years have been heavy on the rubbish. Capaldi should go down in history as he least well served by scripts Doctor of them all. His efforts to salvage any dignity from some of the shows (moon eggs, Forrest world, Robin Hood et al) have been nothing less than heroic.
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Today, 07:07 AM
 
It's far too *insert current progressive movement here*-pandering, and people are sick of it. I don't know a single person who isn't tired of all the forced diversity, because it hasn't been handled well in media and feels anything but organic.
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