[Stegabot]

Originally Posted by Athens

If thats how the system is setup its hard to blame the Feds. Sounds like the system itself needs to be changed. Most countries its not setup like that which is why its soooo hard for all us outsiders to understand the mess.

Athens
It's easy to understand if you know how the United States works.Read the United States constitution for a change and with an open mind,then read America's history,again with an open mind.Then see how this type of government prevents the Federal government from encroaching it's will on Individual States of the Union.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by besson3c

This is a perfectly valid argument based on procedures, rules, and normal bureaucratic methodologies. However, my only argument is: why didn't an official at least fly over, try to connect with what was going on, and then break with the normal policies and procedures once they found out that things weren't working right? This is one of those cases where I think it would have been impossible to have too many hands in the kitchen (or however that expression goes).

I think this is why Bush feels apologetic and has taken some blame by saying that the rescue efforts were unacceptable. I was shocked to hear him say something like that... definitely unusual.

Once again, at what point are you ready, eager and straining at the bit to assume the locals are incompetent so you can take over?

You respect their ability to properly assess and guage THEIR OWN NEED. Liberals ALWAYS assume THEY know best and when there is a situation which calls for local management and local resources but with some help from the feds, you liberals would have the feds second guessing every fricking decision the locals might make.

NO ONE COULD POSSIBLY KNOW BETTER THAN THE FEDS HOW BEST TO DEAL WITH A SITUATION SO EVERY TIME ANY DISASTER TAKES PLACE ON A LOCAL LEVEL YOU WOULD SEND UP A PLANE TO SECOND GUESS THINGS, huh?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Stegabot

Athens
It's easy to understand if you know how the United States works.Read the United States constitution for a change and with an open mind,then read America's history,again with an open mind.Then see how this type of government prevents the Federal government from encroaching it's will on the states and the states on the Federal government.It prevents a president from becoming all powerful despot.

I guess Terry Schiavo was the anomaly here...substitute the will of the courts for the state/local governments of course, but it is still encroachment. They were doing what they thought was right...

I don't want to provoke anybody or get into Schiavo again, I just find this particularly peculiar right now.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Athens

Being on a roof top isnt a position of drowning, thats a position of being stranded.

Only as long as the building holds. If the building fails -and this has happened many times over the past few days- then you get dumped into the water with no warning, and then you are in a position of drowning. Is it not better to get people out of danger before that occurs?

And the Coast Guard should be used for rescuing people, they are trained and equipped for that. The military should have been there in 2 days to drop soldiers into the areas needing policing, and no later then 3 days food and water drops.[/quote]
We have been over this time and again: they could not get there. They did not have vehicles capable of getting past floodwaters. How would you suggest bringing them in?

The Coast Guard had the necessary craft to bring troops in. It would have been a very slow process, because those kinds of craft aren't designed to carry a lot of people at once, but they could have gotten a few soldiers in. To do this, however, they would have had to stop rescuing people. Is this an acceptable trade? Is the Coast Guard's first duty in a disaster to rescue survivors or to transport troops? This is a very real question, and there are powerful arguments for both sides.

There is no reason why food and water was not dropped at the 2 places that had thousands of people waiting for something.

I have given many reasons. You have not refuted them. You cannot honestly continue making this argument unless you can address the concerns I have cited.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I don't want to provoke anybody or get into Schiavo again...

but that's EXACTLY what you're doing.

[deej5871]

Originally Posted by Stegabot

Athens
It's easy to understand if you know how the United States works.Read the United States constitution for a change and with an open mind,then read America's history,again with an open mind.Then see how this type of government prevents the Federal government from encroaching it's will on Individual States of the Union.

I see what you're saying here, but Athens makes a good point in this situation. Most governments are unitary rather than federal. He's right that this is probably why most foreigners continue to blame the feds rather than the state or local governments, because in their countries it would be the feds' fault, but here they couldn't help because the state refused.

While I realize that if foreigners want to go assigning blame they should know how the system works, but I also don't expect them to know the ins and outs of another country's government just to make a few comments on a huge event like this disaster.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by deej5871

I see what you're saying here, but Athens makes a good point in this situation. Most governments are unitary rather than federal. He's right that this is probably why most foreigners continue to blame the feds rather than the state or local governments, because in their countries it would be the feds' fault, but here they couldn't help because the state refused.

While I realize that if foreigners want to go assigning blame they should know how the system works, but I also don't expect them to know the ins and outs of another country's government just to make a few comments on a huge event like this disaster.

Well, they are free to say what they will. Even if they DON'T understand the govt. system. But if they say something and they are wrong they should understand that the SMACKDOWN they get is merely the price of education.

I wasn't replying to you. Check the time stamps much?

Originally Posted by Millennium

Originally Posted by asmack

Spin, rationalize, justify.

Rinse and repeat as desired...

If you disagree with anything I have said, then refute it. If you can't, then make concessions as necessary or at least drop that particular issue. I afford this courtesy to those who argue against me, and I expect the same.

You seem to be responding in particular to my explanation as to why air drops could not have occurred in the places indicated, such as the parking garages. If you believe that air drops could have taken place, then please show where they could have been dropped. If you believe that I am mistaken in any of my explanations, then please suggest ways around the problems. For all I know, maybe there is some method for assessing the structural integrity of a building from the air. If there is then I've never heard of it, and I've no clue how it would work, but I'm willing to admit that there is a nonzero possibility that there might exist such a method. If there is, please inform me.

But if you intend to debate or argue with people on these boards, then argue with them. Dismissing things as "spin" without trying to counter them is very poor argumentative technique. I'd expect to hear it from a PR specialist spin-doctor, but not in an honest debate.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by asmack

I wasn't replying to you. Check the time stamps much?

Hahaha! That reminds me of the TV commercial.

COMEDYZINE.COM

TV COMMERCIAL
REVIEW

HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS

BY
SCOTTY KOWALL

This commercial begins on a skydiving plane. A man that appears to be an instructor at an open door guiding first time jumpers out the door. He yells, "Give me a clean exit and a good arch, go!" The diver jumps as others follow out the door. The man again yells, "Pay attention, right, heads up, at 4,500 feet, look, reach, pull. Go, come on you can do it." The divers jump while listening to his instruction. A woman about to jump stops and asks the man, "How many times have you done this?" He answers, "None but I just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night." The woman dives out the door. The commercial cuts to a black screen with the message, "It won't make you smarter. But you'll feel smarter." Then on a blue background the Holiday Inn Express logo is displayed with following changing messages,
Smart = Breakfast Bar
Smart = Priority Club Rewards
Stay Smart:
This is one of a series of Holiday Inn Express commercials showing people doing things they shouldn't be doing, including performing a medical operation on another man.
Getting a breakfast bar included with your hotel room may make some people feel smart. However chances are the sky divers and the man on the operating table died due to a man that stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. The next sequel to this commercial may be based on the Orlando SWAT team shooting a hostage by mistake. Ever shoot an armed kidnapper? No, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. There are enough morons in society without giving them the idea that they can jump out of a plane or perform a medical operation. Most dumb people walk around with a smile on their face feeling good about themselves. Now we know they probably stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.

And some of them seem to post on online forums.

Originally Posted by mojo2

Hahaha! That reminds me of the TV commercial.

And some of them seem to post on online forums.

Yup, that's right. Keep quoting Tom Cruise movies and silly commercials to get your point across.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by asmack

Yup, that's right. Keep quoting Tom Cruise movies and silly commercials to get your point across.

I fights fire wif fire!

[Athens]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Do you EVER stop and think before shooting off your posts?

Ya I do, do you?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Millennium

We have been over this time and again: they could not get there. They did not have vehicles capable of getting past floodwaters. How would you suggest bringing them in?

Guess you dont know about this wonderful invention called a Helicopter, here let me show you what one looks like



Troops can be dropped in to secure the location, take control then supplies can be dropped in and distributed.



Now if the US military isnt capable of this, its not as advanced as we are all lead to believe. Oh its funny how the media can get in there but the mighty US military cant. Go figure eh.

Guess you dont have anything like this either


The Military couldn't get in because they couldnt get permission to go in. They could have gotten in otherwise. Had nothing to do with the damage to the city. Thats total BS.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Athens

Ya I do, do you?

What you seem to insist upon doing is to take a cursory look at a situation and insist that the APPARENT view, the OBVIOUS view is the ONLY view.

You seldom take into consideration that there MAY be GOOD reasons something IS or ISN'T done, SHOULD or SHOULDN'T be done.

Well, from now on I will respond to your posts in which you employ this elementary and simplistic way of viewing things in that self same manner in order to point out to you the folly that can sometimes result from your doing so.

It will be fun to play this game the OBVIOUSLY APPARENT POINT OF VIEW game.

Get ready, here it comes!

[Athens]

...

[Athens]

well then give a good reason why it couldn't be done. You are not exactly proving your points.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Athens

Guess you dont know about this wonderful invention called a Helicopter, here let me show you what one looks like



Troops can be dropped in to secure the location, take control then supplies can be dropped in and distributed.



Now if the US military isnt capable of this, its not as advanced as we are all lead to believe. Oh its funny how the media can get in there but the mighty US military cant. Go figure eh.

Guess you dont have anything like this either


The Military couldn't get in because they couldnt get permission to go in. They could have gotten in otherwise. Had nothing to do with the damage to the city. Thats total BS.

Athens is right. In fact, Athens, why didn't you stop your helicopter that you were piloting when you took these photographs to go and fly down there to help out in NOLA? You were OBVIOUSLY the pilot. This shot shows you were able to just go with all your men in these shots but you seemed busy doing something else. Hmph! One would think since you were the pilot you would be the one to decide where to fly, right? I mean the Private sitting in the back of the helicopter isn't going to order you where to go! That's silly.

And the rubber boat that is coming to pick you up in the third photo you could have told them to sling it underneath your helicopter and helped those poor folks!

Shame on you.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Athens is right. In fact, Athens, why didn't you stop your helicopter that you were piloting when you took these photographs to go and fly down there to help out in NOLA? You were OBVIOUSLY the pilot. This shot shows you were able to just go with all your men in these shots but you seemed busy doing something else. Hmph! One would think since you were the pilot you would be the one to decide where to fly, right? I mean the Private sitting in the back of the helicopter isn't going to order you where to go! That's silly.

And the rubber boat that is coming to pick you up in the third photo you could have told them to sling it underneath your helicopter and helped those poor folks!

Shame on you.

so what you are saying is you cant provide valid reasons why it could not be done and are resorting sacasim. Come on give it a good shoot, give valid reasons other then red tape which is the only one I see as to why they couldn't get in there faster.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Athens

so what you are saying is you cant provide valid reasons why it could not be done and are resorting sacasim. Come on give it a good shoot, give valid reasons other then red tape which is the only one I see as to why they couldn't get in there faster.

Tell me WHY you couldn't fly your helicopter and your men and the rubber boat to go and help them out.

See, this is what YOU do. You assume that the obvious and apparent view of things has to be the way things are. The flaw in your way of looking at a situation is that your view is ALWAYS going to seem to be the one which is right.

WHY?

Because from afar, without knowing any of the little inconsequential details as to why something is the way it is, why something is done or not done a certain way it is EASY to look at a situation and say, "well, it's OBVIOUS what needs to be done."

Then, when someone criticizes your point of view you can challenge them to disprove your assertions and they can't.

WHY?

Because they don't have the details then they can't disprove your view of things.

And why can't they?

Because you don't have the details in the first place.

And no one has called you on this BS before so you just keep getting away with it.

The day has come for you to find a new way of looking at things, Athens.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Tell me WHY you couldn't fly your helicopter and your men and the rubber boat to go and help them out.

See, this is what YOU do. You assume that the obvious and apparent view of things has to be the way things are. The flaw in your way of looking at a situation is that your view is ALWAYS going to seem to be the one which is right.

WHY?

Because from afar, without knowing any of the little inconsequential details as to why something is the way it is, why something is done or not done a certain way it is EASY to look at a situation and say, "well, it's OBVIOUS what needs to be done."

Then, when someone criticizes your point of view you can challenge them to disprove your assertions and they can't.

WHY?

Because they don't have the details then they can't disprove your view of things.

And why can't they?

Because you don't have the details in the first place.

And no one has called you on this BS before so you just keep getting away with it.

The day has come for you to find a new way of looking at things, Athens.

So why could they not get troops in there with helicopters. Whats your theory please.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Athens

So why could they not get troops in there with helicopters. Whats your theory please.

The question of IF that was the best way to procede is one question we can't know yet because we don't have the details.

The question of WHETHER the necessary troops were ready that quickly (the troops, even when on ACTIVE duty, have to have SOME amount of time to prepare to even be ready for deployment, then the actual deployment takes time, both of which would be delayed by some little things called HURRICANE KATRINA AND THE FLOODING) we don't know yet because we don't have the details.

MY theory is that until you know the factors that go into making a decision it's very unfair to try to play "armchair quarterback." Until the details come out we just don't know. We WON'T know.

Let's take an example that comes from your neck of the woods to try to illustrate the principle.

http://www.news1130.com/news/local/a...02_223507_6212

Local News
Queen of Oak Bay back in service
September 02, 2005 - 7:35 pm
By: Niki Upton
Islanders and tourists are on their way again, now that BC Ferries has fixed a mechanical problem on the Queen of Oak Bay. Some passengers were forced to sit in line for around six hours this morning. People grew more and more frustrated, some let their tempers get out of hand. Passengers were taunting ferry workers, and in some cases, threatening them with violence. But Andrew did his best to stay calm until the ferry finally left over the noon hour. This is the third vessel taken out of the fleet in less than a week. Some passengers say its time for something to be done about BC Ferries old boats.

In the above story service was disrupted due to a mechanical problem of some sort.

If I used your way of looking at the situation I might ask/say any of the following:

"Why didn't they use another ferry?" "Why didn't they find the person who knew how to fix the thing?" "Why didn't they just go to the part store and get the needed part?" "Why don't they buy a whole new fleet of ferries?"

And, of course ANY of those questions may SEEM reasonable ones except that what one MUST assume in each instance is that there was a good reason for not getting another ferry, for not finding another mechanic, for not going to the part store and getting the needed part and for not buying a whole new fleet.

What is the right answer?

We don't know because we don't have the details.

However, if I want to gain control of a discussion what I will do is jump onto an OBVIOUS solution, which in this case might be to simply buy new ferries, and until someone gives me a good reason why that won't work I'll always be in control of the dialogue.

Then, if someone says a reason (not THE reason, but a reason) why buying new ferries isn't a good idea is because it would raise the tax rate, I can add one little twist to my argument, which may be a ridiculous argument in the first place, but since I'm controlling the conversation and I have someone willing to play this game with me, why not play it?

The one little twist might be, "well, they don't have to raise the tax rate, they can just raise the fare for riding the ferry!"

That will send people scurrying to find reasons for or against THAT idea and it could go on indefinitely.

But the underlying truth is we STILL don't know the REAL reason for the ferry being delayed six hours and what's the best solution to the problem and what are the possible solutions.

So, in conclusion...

MY theory is you want to be part of a conversation and you like being at the center of the conversation so you have found this tactic which makes sure you can quickly and without bothering to do much reasearch, come up with a hard to dispute point of view and you can get others to dance about and scurry trying to line up their facts and do their homework and if they do you simply modify your position enough to send them away or send them scurrying again to do even MORE research.

Athens, I think that is lazy and manipulative. I have seen examples of your intellect and I know you are capable. But this game is beneath you and anyone who plays it with you is a dupe.

Find another game. Oh, and by the way, I will keep a copy of this post handy and when I see you doing this sort of thing again, I will post it so the poor innocent poster who is unaware of your game will know what you are up to.

That's my theory.

[Athens]

so you can't find any reason why the Military was not deployed faster except for Red Tape. And because of this you are huffing and puffing.

Btw the Answer is new Ferries, they been overdue for a long time. And they couldn't pull another ferry to take over. There are no more ferries avaible, they just cant magically pull one out of a hat. I assume they could possible rent one from Washington State but it could not go into service until it was inspected and approved and blah blah blah. Your example is pretty poor. And the only one playing games is you right now.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Athens

so you can't find any reason why the Military was not deployed faster except for Red Tape. And because of this you are huffing and puffing.

Btw the Answer is new Ferries, they been overdue for a long time. And they couldn't pull another ferry to take over. There are no more ferries avaible, they just cant magically pull one out of a hat. I assume they could possible rent one from Washington State but it could not go into service until it was inspected and approved and blah blah blah. Your example is pretty poor. And the only one playing games is you right now.

Why would you INSIST on speculating on something that is UNKNOWABLE at this point in time but WILL BECOME KNOWN at the right time???

That is pathologically aberrant thinking.

It is ok and quite normal to accept a situation as unknowable and to wait until the answers come out.

Do you look at movie trailers on TV and INSIST on speculating what the story is about and how the story resolves before even VIEWING the film???

Same thing.

[Y3a]

Why did the Mayor of NO not use the 15 thousand plus school busses for an evacuation, and instead let them become flooded and usless? There is enough blame to go around.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Why would you INSIST on speculating on something that is UNKNOWABLE at this point in time but WILL BECOME KNOWN at the right time???

That is pathologically aberrant thinking.

if that was the case, 99% of all posts in the politics section would be no good. Point is with out debate, with out questioning things or challenging things, things never change.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Y3a

Why did the Mayor of NO not use the 15 thousand plus school busses for an evacuation, and instead let them become flooded and usless? There is enough blame to go around.

Well, that is one obvious question and until he is asked the question and has a chance to answer, we won't really know. By the way, I saw the photo of all the buses sitting parked in the flooded bus yard and wondered the same thing you do, Y3a.

Fox News' Greta van Susteren interviewed a young man of no more than 21 years of age (maybe younger) who broke into a school bus yard and *ahem* commandeered a school bus, rounded up 70 or so survivors and drove them to the Houston Astrodome and safety.

They stopped three times along the way for gas, which the passengers all pitched in to buy.

If he ever runs for elective office I think he's guaranteed a good number of votes just by virtue of his seeing what needed to be done and without worrying about or waiting for permission he simply did what was needed.

Will the other local elected officials be able to say the same?

We'll see.

[Sky Captain]

Morning. I JUST wlaked in the door,
I'm beat. No one here has ANY idea of the scope of the devistation. Any clue whatsoever.
The closer I got to Baton Rouge, the more it looked like the aftermath of Hiroshima.

KBTR is covered in debris. But the runways are clear.
And filed to capicity with transport/rescue aircraft.
I had to fly heave(Full of fuel) as they have none to spare.


I will make another run Tuesday. I get to sleep now.


No one here has a clue as to how much maintenance an rotary wing aircraft has to have after 4 hours of operation. And the manhours it takes to inspect it, replace parts then get it airborn again. And the limited weight one can carry. A rescue bird with a crew can only snatch up 2 170 pound adults. That's it, just 2.

I spoke to a few of the rescuers, I informed them of the leftist discontent of their efforts.
Man I wished I had brought my DV Cam(vorboten for me to carry on the plane as PIC)
But I will quote one of the heros there.
Get off your whiny ass and actually do something.

Goodnight.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Athens

if that was the case, 99% of all posts in the politics section would be no good. Point is with out debate, with out questioning things or challenging things, things never change.

There is a difference between debating points of view based on facts, one side has fact and the other side has facts.

What you are doing is assuming a point of view WITHOUT KNOWING THE FACTS and INSISTING that others debate you by getting them to support their position with facts you aren't bothered to produce OR you get them to debate you by staking out a position which ALSO can't be proven or disproven.

Another example of your position...

"The BACK side of the moon IS made of green cheese."

Disprove my theory. Debate my assertion.

You can't. Why not? Because, although it seems unreasonable to assume it is true, no one has taken samples of the soil from the back side of the moon and so the answer is 99.999% knowable, that NO part of the moon is made of cheese, but we can't be ABSOLUTELY SURE.

And until the answer is absolutely known I can have you debate my assertion from now until forever.

That is NOT debate. That is manipulation.

EDIT: Or mental masturbation.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

Morning. I JUST wlaked in the door,
I'm beat. No one here has ANY idea of the scope of the devistation. Any clue whatsoever.
The closer I got to Baton Rouge, the more it looked like the aftermath of Hiroshima.

KBTR is covered in debris. But the runways are clear.
And filed to capicity with transport/rescue aircraft.
I had to fly heave(Full of fuel) as they have none to spare.


I will make another run Tuesday. I get to sleep now.


No one here has a clue as to how much maintenance an rotary wing aircraft has to have after 4 hours of operation. And the manhours it takes to inspect it, replace parts then get it airborn again. And the limited weight one can carry. A rescue bird with a crew can only snatch up 2 170 pound adults. That's it, just 2.

I spoke to a few of the rescuers, I informed them of the leftist discontent of their efforts.
Man I wished I had brought my DV Cam(vorboten for me to carry on the plane as PIC)
But I will quote one of the heros there.
Get off your whiny ass and actually do something.

Goodnight.

Good night and thanks Cap'n!

[Athens]

Originally Posted by mojo2

There is a difference between debating points of view based on facts, one side has fact and the other side has facts.

What you are doing is assuming a point of view WITHOUT KNOWING THE FACTS and INSISTING that others debate you by getting them to support their position with facts you aren't bothered to produce OR you get them to debate you by staking out a position which ALSO can't be proven or disproven.

Another example of your position...

"The BACK side of the moon IS made of green cheese."

Disprove my theory. Debate my assertion.

You can't. Why not? Because, although it seems unreasonable to assume it is true, no one has taken samples of the soil from the back side of the moon and so the answer is 99.999% knowable, that NO part of the moon is made of cheese, but we can't be ABSOLUTELY SURE.

And until the answer is absolutely known I can have you debate my assertion from now until forever.

That is NOT debate. That is manipulation.

Actually I can disprove your theory, the moon has no atmosphere, and cheese requires bacteria to cultivate, hence it is impossible for the moons backside to be made of cheese as bacteria as we know it can not live in the vacuum of space at those temperatures.

Next poor example please.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

I spoke to a few of the rescuers, I informed them of the leftist discontent of their efforts. Man I wished I had brought my DV Cam(vorboten for me to carry on the plane as PIC)
But I will quote one of the heros there.
Get off your whiny ass and actually do something.

Goodnight.

You certainly had some time to turn this thing into something political...



Did they need to know that? These guys work their ass off and you had to bring them into a discussion they don't have the slightest idea about except your own conclusions???

These guys need to be supported but because you had a few rants with some ignorant lefties on this board you had to make it a political agenda to look good, right?

Opportunist. No better than the lefties you blame for their stupidity.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Athens

Actually I can disprove your theory, the moon has no atmosphere, and cheese requires bacteria to cultivate, hence it is impossible for the moons backside to be made of cheese as bacteria as we know it can not live in the vacuum of space at those temperatures.

Next poor example please.

Hahaha!

You fell into it.

You can't seem to help yourself. You so crave attention that you manipulate people into interacting with you.

You showed your intellect in disproving my intentionally flawed example but then, as you frequently do, invited continued interaction by goading me into coming up with yet ANOTHER ("poor") example, even though you understand the point.

Outrageous behavior and ostentatious attitudes often work to attract people's attention but those who are complex and flamboyant don't wear well. I don't wear my Elton John high heeled sneakers around the house, even though they once attracted my attention. Why not? They aren't comfortable.

[RobOnTheCape]

It seems to me that the "Emergency Preparedness" department in Louisiana wasn't up to the task, but I'm thinking "Who could've?" Some other country, some other State could've waved a wand and done things much better? I'm not sure. I saw an exchange the other day with a meteorologist who was explaining about storm surges. cat 4 brings up to 15' surges, but a cat 5 brings up to 18' surges, this with waves on top of the surges.

Katrina brought estimated surges of 30' in some areas, plus waves. Even the worst case scenario would've been crushed by this storm. How do you effectively deal with a catastrophie the size of Great Britain, and do it within hours after the storm?

The biggest hit was not getting the people out of there, and that falls on the local administrations, not so much federal. But what do you do. How many people just didn't want to leave since they had ridden past storms out, or felt that storms got hyped and they got rain and 45 mile an hour winds.

I'll wager that if they had those yellow buses now in a few feet of water out at pick up points to haul people out we would still have thousands who were going to rideit out.

We'll sort through this in hearings probably, and then prepare a little better next time, but if another Katrina happens in the same place, then the same thing is probably going to happen. This was one helluva act of God.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

You certainly had some time to turn this thing into something political...



Did they need to know that? These guys work their ass off and you had to bring them into a discussion they don't have the slightest idea about except your own conclusions???

These guys need to be supported but because you had a few rants with some ignorant lefties on this board you had to make it a political agenda to look good, right?

Opportunist. No better than the lefties you blame for their stupidity.

I'm often amused and at other times astounded at how people will disconnect from reality and appeal to an obviously flawed attack and really think the opponent will go there with them.

Pendergast, your argument only bears weight if people normally work a whole shift without talking to each other about anything but the job at hand and/or if there are never any idle moments during that time.

People talk and share things and points of view and other conversations and interactions. That's normal. Furthermore, in a live situation (not like here on MacNN) you are only likely to share your point of view with those who are close to you and/or those who share that same point of view.

Your characterization of Sky Captain's BOTHERING those other hard working relief personnel with his unusual and fringe political point of view is funny to me because it's MORE likely that this is EXACTLY the reception you are used to getting because YOUR point of view is the one that most people object to and find to be out of favor.

As Zimphire might say, you are projecting!

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by RobOnTheCape

It seems to me that the "Emergency Preparedness" department in Louisiana wasn't up to the task, but I'm thinking "Who could've?" Some other country, some other State could've waved a wand and done things much better? I'm not sure. I saw an exchange the other day with a meteorologist who was explaining about storm surges. cat 4 brings up to 15' surges, but a cat 5 brings up to 18' surges, this with waves on top of the surges.

Katrina brought estimated surges of 30' in some areas, plus waves. Even the worst case scenario would've been crushed by this storm. How do you effectively deal with a catastrophie the size of Great Britain, and do it within hours after the storm?

The biggest hit was not getting the people out of there, and that falls on the local administrations, not so much federal. But what do you do. How many people just didn't want to leave since they had ridden past storms out, or felt that storms got hyped and they got rain and 45 mile an hour winds.

I'll wager that if they had those yellow buses now in a few feet of water out at pick up points to haul people out we would still have thousands who were going to rideit out.

We'll sort through this in hearings probably, and then prepare a little better next time, but if another Katrina happens in the same place, then the same thing is probably going to happen. This was one helluva act of God.

I agree with every point you've made here.

It was someone looking to bash Bush who even brought up the question of who was to blame for this. The Bush supporters and those who are objective have been responding to the premature and inaccurate accusations that the Federal govt. was at fault.

Personally, I was willing to wait until AT LEAST the dead had all been picked up before looking to blame someone. But the blame game started early and so...

[dreilly1]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Personally, I was willing to wait until AT LEAST the dead had all been picked up before looking to blame someone. But the blame game started early and so...

Even though I think this thread has been lost to the trolls sometime ago, I wanted to at least address this point. I think it's very important to start assessing what went wrong, and start assessing it right away. Only because the details are fresh in people's minds right now, and the spin machines haven't had a chance to go into action. It's vitally important that we keep track of facts as best we can, as they happen, and create a truthful picture of what happened. If we wait until everyone is OK, we'll miss key information.

There's only so much I can do sitting here. I have none of the specialized training needed to go and physically help. I can donate money and blood, and help out the organizations here in Rochester that are gathering supplies and even looking for places for displaced people, but some will always be in a position to do more. I'm interested in finding out what failed in the relief planning because I'd like to make sure I do what little I can to make sure this situation never happens again, and make up for what little I can do now.

[art_director]

New Orleans hit by hurricane Katrina, Condi Rice gets new pumps.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/na...7LFfrjssFhSVCQ

That's what we need from the federal government, better footwear.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

You certainly had some time to turn this thing into something political...

*THIS JUST IN... THREAD TITLE CLEARLY READS 'KATRINA PROVES FEDERAL GOVERNMENT INCOMPETENT'.
(AP) leftist boob indicts conservative poster for replying to an overtly political thread with a political counter-point and in consistent leftist boob fashion, allows for the leftist political statements, quick to call out only those points made by one with an opposing view.

Did they need to know that?

Do our soldiers need to know how you and Michael Moore feel about our actions in Iraq? I suppose by your reasoning we should probably shut he, Athens, and Witness 2005 up then.

These guys work their ass off and you had to bring them into a discussion they don't have the slightest idea about except your own conclusions???

What's there to know? The usual suspects will point fingers at the Reuters column on their G5 while the movers and shakers prepare to roll up their sleeves. This doesn't surprise them and their statements of calling for them to get off thier a$$es doesn't surprise me.

These guys need to be supported but because you had a few rants with some ignorant lefties on this board you had to make it a political agenda to look good, right?

Is that not exactly what this thread was intended to do? Yet, not as surprising was your unwillingess to call this thread starter to task. At least in that, you are consistent. There are many more involved in this, not just the Federal Government. By indicting the Federal Government when there are a great many to point a finger at, you are attempting to indict the Bush administration failing to realize the incredibly complex nature of logistics involved with this rescue and recovery effort. The ones doing the dirty work realize how incredibly complex it is, the ones in their gated communities eating Ben & Jerry's do not.

Opportunist. No better than the lefties you blame for their stupidity.

Again, thread title is 'Katrina proves federal government incompetent'. Not "slow", not "caught off guard", not "caught unwitting", not "surprised or overwhelmed by the magnitude of the effort", but "incompetent". When you try to use a tragedy wrought by a natural disaster never-before witnessed in this country to bolster your political view on the Federal Government, you are in fact a leftie. When a leftie screams "quit exploiting tragedy for a political agenda", it really means; "Don't offer counter-points to my fellow leftie who exploited tragedy for a political agenda!"

Thread summary;

- poster authors thread exploiting tragedy in an attempt to illustrate Federal incompetence.

- Pendergast remains silent and allows the thread to continue. Afterall, he feels the same way.

- someone responds by saying; "I've talked to some of the folks involved in the cleanup effort and asked them what they thought of the criticism of the efforts and actions of those involved. As to be expected, they said; "Get off your whiny, lazy a$$ and help out."

- Pendergast, purely in the interest of political anonymity (or so he tries to say), calls the above poster an opportunist for offering perspective given by those who have rolled up their sleeves. Proving nothing other than his own leftist boobery.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

Again, thread title is 'Katrina proves federal government incompetent'. Not "slow", not "caught off guard", not "caught unwitting", not "surprised or overwhelmed by the magnitude of the effort", but "incompetent". When you try to use a tragedy wrought by a natural disaster never-before witnessed in this country to bolster your political view on the Federal Government, you are in fact a leftie. When a leftie screams "quit exploiting tragedy for a political agenda", it really means; "Don't offer counter-points to my fellow leftie who exploited tragedy for a political agenda!"

I started this thread and, yes, I used the word 'incompetent.' Why? Because the initial response by the federal government was terrible, or as they say, the government was proven to be incompetent.

The act of criticizing the federal government does not make one a 'leftie.' To make such an accusation only reveals profound ignorance.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by dreilly1

Even though I think this thread has been lost to the trolls sometime ago, I wanted to at least address this point. I think it's very important to start assessing what went wrong, and start assessing it right away. Only because the details are fresh in people's minds right now, and the spin machines haven't had a chance to go into action. It's vitally important that we keep track of facts as best we can, as they happen, and create a truthful picture of what happened. If we wait until everyone is OK, we'll miss key information.

There's only so much I can do sitting here. I have none of the specialized training needed to go and physically help. I can donate money and blood, and help out the organizations here in Rochester that are gathering supplies and even looking for places for displaced people, but some will always be in a position to do more. I'm interested in finding out what failed in the relief planning because I'd like to make sure I do what little I can to make sure this situation never happens again, and make up for what little I can do now.

I suppose you have a point. I just thought if we waited a bit some of the silly speculation and completely irrational and emotion based and/or partisan politicking would be avoided. I guess it's going to happen no matter when the process begins and the collection of information as it happens really is to be valued as memories here are so manufactured and subject to spin.

I concede.

[art_director]

According to CNN ten bodies were recovered at the SuperDome. On the one hand I think ten deaths isn't bad given the number of people temporarily housed there. On the other hand, I look at all the high tech helicopters and such that we, as a nation own, and wonder, WTF? Why didn't they get supplies, doctors and equipment in place ASAP? It's obvious from the images in the media that helicopters could have landed / dropped everything to the evacuees at that location.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

*THIS JUST IN... THREAD TITLE CLEARLY READS 'KATRINA PROVES FEDERAL GOVERNMENT INCOMPETENT'.
(AP) leftist boob indicts conservative poster for replying to an overtly political thread with a political counter-point and in consistent leftist boob fashion, allows for the leftist political statements, quick to call out only those points made by one with an opposing view.

Listen. Or read.

Say you are busy saving people in a rescue operation. Do you need to know about the ramblings of some debaters who have no clue about what you are doing or do you want to feel supported in what you do?

Having been in rescue missins, I don't care about the political debate; I want to be supported in my job so I can focus on what counts.

My point is that SkyCaptain, while doing some work to rescue people, (honorable action and I admire him for that), takes time to debate about what some ignorant debaters supposedly think about the job of the rescuers.

That was not necessary, or appropriate.

Rescuers need support, whatever anybody else is thinking. That was my point.

The idea is not to shut up dissent; I welcome dissent and I think it has its place in a democracy. But do rescuers have time for that? Do you want to burden their time with a stupid irrelevant debate?

Well if you like that, fine. I would not.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by art_director

The act of criticizing the federal government does not make one a 'leftie.' To make such an accusation only reveals profound ignorance.

No you're right. To criticize the government at a time like this only because it's the Bush administration we're talking about, makes you consistent with leftist boobery. There have been several natural disasters in this country. From tornado destruction in the midwest, to snowstorms in the south, and flooding on the east and just about everwhere else. Many states, including my own have acknowledged a superior response and level of support to our State over the prior administration. It's really easy to point fingers when the most severe natural disaster that has ever happened, happens on the watch of the man you despise. This most recent natural disaster caught a great many by surprise. I dare say, mostly the local government and the people of NO. Truth be told, you are ignorant.

The Mississippi River experienced severe flooding of historic significance early in the Bush Administration- the river rose to its highest level since 1965 affecting residents in 4 states and causing billions in damages. The victims' reports of Federal aid in this instance were extremely favorable. Didn't hear much about it did you? Educate yourself.

One of the worst winter snowstorms in 100 years leave ice and snow from Texas to New York. The victims' reports on Federal Aid during this example were extremely favorable yet you no doubt heard none of that either.

The Federal Government's reactions during the above examples were unprecedented in their swiftness and level of support, yet you were no doubt silent because they didn't get the coverage this recent storm is getting and because you were unable to exploit those tragedies for your personal convictions. Your response still does not make you appear less petty in your attempt to use this natural disaster to disseminate your general distaste for the current administration. Your indictment falls on deaf ears because the administration was not proven to be incompetent during relief of this storm as it had been proven competent by it's relief of storms prior. The humanitarian nightmare did not begin until 32 hours after the storm had left the region, when the levies were breeched. You can pretend to forget this, but that takes us into Tuesday, and major operations were underway by Thursday.

It's quite possible our own reaction to this tragedy is delayed. Have you given anything to help yet?

[art_director]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

No you're right. To criticize the government at a time like this only because it's the Bush administration we're talking about, makes you consistent with leftist boobery. There have been several natural disasters in this country. From tornado destruction in the midwest, to snowstorms in the south, and flooding on the east and just about everwhere else. Many states, including my own have acknowledged a superior response and level of support to our State over the prior administration. It's really easy to point fingers when the most severe natural disaster that has ever happened, happens on the watch of the man you despise. This most recent natural disaster caught a great many by surprise. I dare say, mostly the local government and the people of NO. Truth be told, you are ignorant.

The Mississippi River experienced severe flooding of historic significance early in the Bush Administration- the river rose to its highest level since 1965 affecting residents in 4 states and causing billions in damages. The victims' reports of Federal aid in this instance were extremely favorable. Didn't hear much about it did you? Educate yourself.

One of the worst winter snowstorms in 100 years leave ice and snow from Texas to New York. The victims' reports on Federal Aid during this example were extremely favorable yet you no doubt heard none of that either.

The Federal Government's reactions during the above examples were unprecedented in their swiftness and level of support, yet you were no doubt silent because they didn't get the coverage this recent storm is getting and because you were unable to exploit those tragedies for your personal convictions. Your response still does not make you appear less petty in your attempt to use this natural disaster to disseminate your general distaste for the current administration. Your indictment falls on deaf ears because the administration was not proven to be incompetent during relief of this storm as it had been proven competent by it's relief of storms prior. The humanitarian nightmare did not begin until 32 hours after the storm had left the region, when the levies were breeched. You can pretend to forget this, but that takes us into Tuesday, and major operations were underway by Thursday.

It's quite possible our own reaction to this tragedy is delayed. Have you given anything to help yet?

Get this straight: Federal government reactions to earlier disasters does not save the victims of this event.

As for the rest of your comments – I'm criticizing the entire federal government – Republicans and Democrats – they all fooked up. Yes, I dislike Bush, but I'm able to give credit where credit is due (ie. His leadership after 9-11). In this case he failed.

[art_director]

Regardless of your political beliefs, this is sad:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04/kat....ap/index.html

[art_director]

Hmmm...


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...ationworld-hed

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by art_director

Get this straight: Federal government reactions to earlier disasters does not save the victims of this event.

You get it straight: reacting to the nation's single largest natural disaster is going to require more than you indicting a Federal Adminstration as incompetent when it's reaction to disasters prior does not suggest incompetence, but an unprecedented natural disaster.

As for the rest of your comments – I'm criticizing the entire federal government – Republicans and Democrats – they all fooked up. Yes, I dislike Bush, but I'm able to give credit where credit is due (ie. His leadership after 9-11). In this case he failed.

I disagree. I believe the actions of the local government failed and that many people failed themselves. As evidenced by those that hung back with the express intent of looting an abandoned city. This unfortunately, leading to it's civil defense taking their own lives out of depression over a lost city and a lost humanity. The humanity they sought to protect when they first put that badge on.

I work for a local communications firm and while it's been several years since I've worked in the field, I volunteered to do so in helping rebuild communications infrastructure in our New Orleans system.

In getting it straight I hope you understand that picking up a shovel is what is needed, not picking up your hand to point a finger. What have you done to help?

[art_director]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

You get it straight: reacting to the nation's single largest natural disaster is going to require more than you indicting a Federal Adminstration as incompetent when it's reaction to disasters prior does not suggest incompetence, but an unprecedented natural disaster.

It should be recognized just the same. The federal government let these people down.

Originally Posted by ebuddy

As evidenced by those that hung back with the express intent of looting an abandoned city.

Let me get this straight, you're suggesting that people stayed behind and weathered the storm specifically to loot?

Originally Posted by ebuddy

I work for a local communications firm and while it's been several years since I've worked in the field, I volunteered to do so in helping rebuild communications infrastructure in our New Orleans system.

I applaud your initiative. If my experience and skill set would be f help I'd go immediately.

Originally Posted by ebuddy

In getting it straight I hope you understand that picking up a shovel is what is needed, not picking up your hand to point a finger. What have you done to help?

At this point they are asking for trained emergency personel, which I am not. If there were a role I could play I'd be there already. In the coming days and weeks, if there's a call for volunteers I'll go.

I believe a few fingers need to be pointed at the city, state and federal officials who were elected to protect the citizens. They all failed – the Democrats running the city and state, the Democrats and Republicans running the federal government, and, most specifically, the one man who could have mobilized more rescue efforts immediately after the storm left the region.

It amazes me that Reps can circle the wagons around incompetence.

[Sky Captain]

And it amazes me the Dems can't even circle the wagons.

Just the ordinary citizens who have learned to be self sufficent.
People are not to rely on the federal government to "take care of them".
That's not it's job. And until a few here understand that, all that will happen is a whole bunch of armchair quarterbacks will continue to point fingers and bitch.
While the rest of us actually do something.
I go back Tuesday.

And I don't believe anyone else here will participate. Other than bitching.
You make me sick.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

And it amazes me the Dems can't even circle the wagons.

Just the ordinary citizens who have learned to be self sufficent.
People are not to rely on the federal government to "take care of them".
That's not it's job. And until a few here understand that, all that will happen is a whole bunch of armchair quarterbacks will continue to point fingers and bitch.
While the rest of us actually do something.
I go back Tuesday.

And I don't believe anyone else here will participate. Other than bitching.
You make me sick.

Trouble carrying a thought through for multiple sentences?