[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by Salty

The significance of Christmas is not simply that God was born as a human, the significance is that He was born as a human so that He could empathize with us in our condition, and so that He could die for our sins.

I'd say all that is definitely worth celebrating and worth having a happy Christmas.

And the ownership of one's own sins is a very necessary aspect of Christianity.

Ownership, I hear you. Ownership is not guilt or morbidity, just the opposite.

[maxelson]

Originally Posted by boots

That's certainly one popular interpretation. Don't get too caught up in the blood theology. Be thankful, and live with lots of grace.

Another interpretation is that "blood sacrifice" really had nothing to do with it. a) it doesn't fit the pattern. God didn't kill him, we did - so god wasn't making any promise to us. (See God's covenant with Abraham for an example.) And we didn't do it because we were sealing a covenant. There was no formal understanding of "terms" of the new covenant. b) how do you explain this, the ultimate act of child abuse, to those who live in or have just emerged from abusive situations? There is hardly any hope in hearing that even God abuses his kids. c) Jesus rose in spite of what we did to him. That's how much God loves us.

I don't expect you to change your views. I just ask that you think about why the interpretation of events might need to be reconsidered. Yes, God may have know what was coming...and allowed it to happen (so he did "give his only begotten son). Perhaps, though, he wasn't all happy about it. But he gave us new hope anyway.

What he said. See HUGE contextual differences between accounts of the crucifixion in the Gospels- i.e. Jesus' own reactions and voice- very distinct differences in character.
Interesting read: Misquoting Jesus. I'm pretty sure it can be gotten at Amazon. Put it on your Easter list.

[chris v]

Originally Posted by maxelson

What he said. See HUGE contextual differences between accounts of the crucifixion in the Gospels- i.e. Jesus' own reactions and voice- very distinct differences in character.
Interesting read: Misquoting Jesus. I'm pretty sure it can be gotten at Amazon. Put it on your Easter list.

I heard that on NPR today, too. Guy claimed the "Cast the first stone" chapter didn't appear in writing until the 12th century. Definitely adding to the list.

Christmas is about the birth.

Easter is about the resurrection. The resurrection would not have taken place if not for the crucifixion.

Being angry about the crucifixion seems absurd to me, because the resurrection, which is the cornerstone of Christianity, would not have taken place without it. When people holler "Christ Killer," it befuddles me.

What if they'd stoned him? makes you wonder how the iconography would have turned out.

[maxelson]

I actually read it a little while ago (remember my little reading jag this summer? This was on the top of the list) and was reminded of it this afternoon when I heard it. The guy makes some very sound arguments. I'd like to hear counters, but I've a feeling the arguments would take an ugly turn. The guy all but proves what he's saying.
Of course, the only counter I have eve heard is "God inspired Man". I'm pretty inspired. When do I get to write the book of Max and have it included? And who decided (since Constantine) that the Nag Hammadi are still apocryphal? Who decided they were not inspired by God? And how? Same author did a book called Lost Scriptures. Have not gotten that one yet. Its on my XMas list. My wife won't get it. She does not often listen to the reply when she asks what I want for birthday, XMas, what havee. So I'll have to get it meself.
At any rate, he tackles this stuff from the linguistic and historic POV.
Oh. And he's a Born Again reborn as an Agnostic. His research began as a Born Again and led him to have faith in God and none in religion.

[Salty]

Originally Posted by maxelson

If the significance is as you say it is, well, then, you need to point that out because your idea is not the perception most folk hold. You're not pointing that out. What you say above is not a part of your piece.

Seems to me, Salty, you did not want a critique after all. If you did, you'd respond in kind. Is it true, then, what folk are applying to this? That you have your ulterior reasons for posting this? If it is, have to courage of your conviction and point that out. You put it here and expect to be pinioned. Is it your wish for this to happen so that you and others may respond in a certain way?

Please let me know if this is true. I won't waste my critique if it isn't wanted.

I was not asking for a critique of the poem, I was asking if it felt Christmasy. Asking if you get that feeling, not if you'd like to tell me how I could go about making you feel that way by altering the poem.

I rarely ask for advice on MacNN, especially for anything truly important to me, because quite frankly the people here really don't have the best interests of anyone else in mind most days. That said, again was I using this as some sort of direct witnessing tool or something? No, frankly most of you have chosen your paths and you're welcome to walk them. I may challenge poorly thought out points of view but that's more so because I would do that with any poorly thought out point of view be it Christian or non, the problem is many of the things people say here are poorly thought out .

Again, I don't think you will find anywhere in my posts a request for you to make my work better, it was one specific question which very few people bothered to answer. Of course this may be because so many people would much rather speak to answer, than make sure they understand the question.

[isao bered]

Originally Posted by Salty

I rarely ask for advice on MacNN...

heh. you just open nearly all facets of your life for public discourse and counsel. where is a "ha, ha" man when you need one? ;-)

Originally Posted by Salty

That said, again was I using this as some sort of direct witnessing tool or something? No...

that's good. because not only was it not "christmasy" it was too much of a labor to read to even want to extract meaning from. but if it's any consolation, i did hear a couple of people crying out to god ("not again!!") even so far away as here. ;-)

Originally Posted by Salty

I may challenge poorly thought out points of view...

and perhaps even someday your own? can i get an amen?

be well.

laeth

[Salty]

Originally Posted by isao bered

heh. you just open nearly all facets of your life for public discourse and counsel. where is a "ha, ha" man when you need one? ;-)



that's good. because not only was it not "christmasy" it was too much of a labor to read to even want to extract meaning from. but if it's any consolation, i did hear a couple of people crying out to god ("not again!!") even so far away as here. ;-)



and perhaps even someday your own? can i get an amen?

be well.

laeth

Ahh you small hateful little man .

[Mastrap]

Hateful? No Salty, not hateful. A little unkind maybe. But you frequently do open yourself up to this sort of thing.

[isao bered]

Originally Posted by Salty

Ahh you small hateful little man .

yes, that's it dear child. search for a denominator that you understand, regardless if it is true or common.

yes, dear child, fail to see that opening the door wide for the thing you want may well let in many things you don't. then consider those offering your desire unwelcome guests and blame them for the wind blowing in the door.

yes, dear child, simultaneously proclaim who you are and deny what you are doing. and when someone notices denigrate them. yes, walk in a false light while ushering in the dark.

yes, dear child, never grow up because because the accountability will likely kill you.

be well.

laeth

[isao bered]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

A little unkind maybe.

i was thinking harsh truism, but i'm not especially careful to be "kind" with him as he seems to react to valid criticism - given gently or harshly - in the same manner. that is he tends to reject it. if only he knew that clouds part and doves hover whene'er maxelson speaks. ;-)

yeah, cheese!!! :-)

be well.

laeth

[andi*pandi]

Actually, I think all of Maxelson's very well-thought out and delivered post can be applied to whether the poem is Chrismassy, just as well as to its quality level. If the poem is meant to imply Christmassy, it failed. Maxelson pointed out some of the reasons why. If you're choosing to ignore what was pretty good input... then why post the poem for everyone to see? It's the equivalent of trying on new jeans, turning to your partner and saying, "do these make me look fat?" but you don't really want a real answer, you just want validation. And on some other boards, you would get tons of folks posting superficial answers like "great job!" "you should publish that!" "I like what you did with the tree bit!" and you may feel validated but that won't help your work become any stronger.

the tree bit is straight outta JCS, I tells ya.

[isao bered]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

Actually, I think all of Maxelson's very well-thought out and delivered post can be applied to whether the poem is Chrismassy, just as well as it's quality level. If the poem is meant to imply Christmassy, it failed. Maxelson pointed out some of the reasons why.

the tree bit is straight outta JCS, I tells ya.

yes. and to clarify, i was intending to be complimentary of maxelson and upon re-reading can see where my comment may seem sarcastic (toward maxelson). i don't want it to be taken that way.

yeah, cheese!!

be well.

laeth

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Salty

I was not asking for a critique of the poem, I was asking if it felt Christmasy. Asking if you get that feeling, not if you'd like to tell me how I could go about making you feel that way by altering the poem.

You just got an incredibly detailed review of constructive criticism from somebody whose JOB is teaching this stuff. Maxelson wasted FAR more time on reviewing your work and expanding your feeble horizon than he apparently should have.

If you have such incredibly low expectations of your fellow posters that you post a huge "poem" only expecting a yes-or-no answer, make it a ****ing poll next time.

It would clear up any misconceptions about you wanting, let alone being willing to deal with, actual feedback.

[analogika]

Oh, and just to clarify and give a little bit more of a yes/no response:

I don't consider laughing at the death of Jesus appropriate sentiment for Christmas (or any time, really, except in black humor), and since that's what your poem provokes with its "And we nailed him to a tree" line:

No. Not "Christmasy".

[maxelson]

Originally Posted by Salty

I was not asking for a critique of the poem, I was asking if it felt Christmasy. Asking if you get that feeling, not if you'd like to tell me how I could go about making you feel that way by altering the poem.

I rarely ask for advice on MacNN, especially for anything truly important to me, because quite frankly the people here really don't have the best interests of anyone else in mind most days. That said, again was I using this as some sort of direct witnessing tool or something? No, frankly most of you have chosen your paths and you're welcome to walk them. I may challenge poorly thought out points of view but that's more so because I would do that with any poorly thought out point of view be it Christian or non, the problem is many of the things people say here are poorly thought out .

Again, I don't think you will find anywhere in my posts a request for you to make my work better, it was one specific question which very few people bothered to answer. Of course this may be because so many people would much rather speak to answer, than make sure they understand the question.

Not Christmassy. Definitely not Christmassy.
Do you challenge your own poorly thought out POVs? Do you understand the questions? DO you seek answers in the questions? Do you seek more questions? Are you comfortable with the answers?
You're young. Use your time to learn.

Little advice: you put it out there, whether you want it or not, it is open to critique. Welcome to the world of the artist.
Now. Go make that poem better.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by analogika

You just got an incredibly detailed review of constructive criticism from somebody whose JOB is teaching this stuff. Maxelson wasted FAR more time on reviewing your work and expanding your feeble horizon than he apparently should have.

If you have such incredibly low expectations of your fellow posters that you post a huge "poem" only expecting a yes-or-no answer, make it a ****ing poll next time.

It would clear up any misconceptions about you wanting, let alone being willing to deal with, actual feedback.

Why are you constantly hateful and negative?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Why are you constantly hateful and negative?

I am nothing of the sort.

Stop acting like you're his spokesperson and let HIM deal with the feedback he himself has solicited.

[Kevin]

You may not BE such a thing. But the image you project on here, you know constantly bitching and belittling people, is that of hatefulnes.

You might want to look into that.

[BlueSky]

Kevin is like the baby Jesus, he brings peace into our lives.

[Salty]

Again, if I honestly felt that any of you would have valid criticism that would genuinely help my work I would have submitted it to you with the intent of altering and editing it. However for the most part I don't edit my poems terribly much after they're written since I don't bring any of them to publication.
The motivation for posting this was because I had the opportunity to read it or not somewhere and I wanted to see if it brought out that course of thinking in others.

If you would like a good reason for why I wouldn't want your criticisms, here's one, the only people on this forum that would likely get half of the allusions in the poem would be Zimph, myself, Cody Dawg and other people who have actually read the Bible. The tree comment was not a reference to a Christmas tree, it was actually simply a phrase taken directly from the Bible. A tree refers to the cross it has no Christmas connotations.
Since most of you aren't equipped to glean the meaning of this poem, why would I ask for your advice in improving it? For the most part this forum is filled with unwise, vocal, councillors. My post was hardly a deeply thought out endeavour.

I simply wanted to hear some basic reactions from a group of people who are significantly different than the people I normally am around. I do not understand how so many of you are so dense that you can't understand I actually don't care that much about converting you.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Salty

I simply wanted to hear some basic reactions from a group of people who are significantly different than the people I normally am around. I do not understand how so many of you are so dense that you can't understand I actually don't care that much about converting you.

Their insecurity slip is showing.

[andi*pandi]

Originally Posted by Salty

If you would like a good reason for why I wouldn't want your criticisms, here's one, the only people on this forum that would likely get half of the allusions in the poem would be Zimph, myself, Cody Dawg and other people who have actually read the Bible. The tree comment was not a reference to a Christmas tree, it was actually simply a phrase taken directly from the Bible. A tree refers to the cross it has no Christmas connotations.
Since most of you aren't equipped to glean the meaning of this poem, why would I ask for your advice in improving it? For the most part this forum is filled with unwise, vocal, councillors. My post was hardly a deeply thought out endeavour.

Salty's arrogance is showing, morelike. How do you know who has read the bible or not? Are you keeping a list? Just because we don't go spouting off about it every FRICKING second does not mean we are not familiar with the work. Or get primitive analogies to it made in stilting rhyme.

Your post contradicts itself, first saying that only certain select members of the forum are worthy of considering your poem in all its faulty glory, then saying you wanted to see what people who weren't like your normal set thought. Hint: that certain set? Probably like your normal circle. Only considering their opinions? Keeping yourself in a safe little box.

did anyone ever say they thought the tree referenced meant a christmas tree??

[Salty]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

did anyone ever say they thought the tree referenced meant a christmas tree??

Yes.
As well you suggested it was out of Jesus Christ Superstar. And as a rule lounge members seem to be ignorant of an enormous amount of what the Bible says.

Woops I should also add MacNStein to my list of people who might be able to actually understand most of the content of the poem.

You want to talk about arrogance, how bout you point your finger back at yourself and stop arguing for something that if you gave any thought at all you'd realize is dead wrong.

[besson3c]

Why should we have to understand the bible? You asked *all* of us whether the poem felt Christmasy. Since your initial responses seemed like you weren't interested in our opinions (or opinions from non-Christians) and were more interested in evangelizing, I pointed out that you are simply trying to foist your beliefs on us. You got your back up with your response and just lashed out, calling us unwise and non-enlightened (very effective way of spreading the Gospel!)

So, I guess I'm just not sure what sort of a response you are now expecting from us non-Christians? What could we possibly say that would make you happy? "Yes, the poem is very Christmasy"? "Your poem kicks ass! Please provide us with more poems about God for us to enjoy!"?

[Kevin]

Besson, no belief spreading is going on here. It's just Salty looking for attention.

Salty how could you have NOT known what kind of reaction you were going to get when you posted this? I find it VERY HARD to beleive that you did not know EXACTLY what would take place. But you did it anyhow.

There are other forums for things like that. MacNN isn't a religious forum (pro or against) so none of this really needs to be posted here. It just fosters hostility.

You just want attention/ and or start crap.Quit it.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

did anyone ever say they thought the tree referenced meant a christmas tree??

Somebody said that?

Where? I completely missed it.

that's even funnier than the poem's punchline!

[Salty]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Besson, no belief spreading is going on here. It's just Salty looking for attention.

Salty how could you have NOT known what kind of reaction you were going to get when you posted this? I find it VERY HARD to beleive that you did not know EXACTLY what would take place. But you did it anyhow.

There are other forums for things like that. MacNN isn't a religious forum (pro or against) so none of this really needs to be posted here. It just fosters hostility.

You just want attention/ and or start crap.Quit it.

Simple, generally if you look at the past, most people don't read many poetry posts. Do a search Zimph.

[Salty]

Originally Posted by analogika

Somebody said that?

Where? I completely missed it.

that's even funnier than the poem's punchline!

And you guys wonder why I wouldn't want input from loungers in general? Sheesh you paint me as some sort of elitist forgetting that, yes some people in the lounge are genuinely stupid!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Besson, no belief spreading is going on here. It's just Salty looking for attention.

Salty how could you have NOT known what kind of reaction you were going to get when you posted this? I find it VERY HARD to beleive that you did not know EXACTLY what would take place. But you did it anyhow.

There are other forums for things like that. MacNN isn't a religious forum (pro or against) so none of this really needs to be posted here. It just fosters hostility.

You just want attention/ and or start crap.Quit it.

You are absolutely right about it fostering hostility. No good has ever or will ever come from this sort of evangelizing/passing on God literature/whatever you want to call it. Whether you personally agree with the assessment that it is belief spreading is somewhat irrelevant, it can *feel* like belief foisting to some.

At first, it did to me, but after rereading some of this stuff I'm now just mainly puzzled what the point of this thread is.

[isao bered]

so perfect.
so esoteric.
so few who understand.
your righteousness.
our filthiness.
whatever god commands.
hallelujah!
deign salty.
let us kiss your hand.
that we.
dark heathens.
could emulate this man!

or maybe not.

be well.

laeth

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Salty

And you guys wonder why I wouldn't want input from loungers in general? Sheesh you paint me as some sort of elitist forgetting that, yes some people in the lounge are genuinely stupid!

What did you want from us stupid "loosers" then?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Salty

Simple, generally if you look at the past, most people don't read many poetry posts. Do a search Zimph.

Oh come on Salty. Stop playing stupid.

This one, the "merry christmas" thread. You knew those were going to turn into flames.

I've requested that you stop posting these before.

It DOES come off as you doing such just to get attention.

[andi*pandi]

laeth:

and I'm going to take the christmas tree/tree thing to mean Salty is trying to trick me into reading this whole thread over again with a fine-tooth comb looking for that reference. THAT WON'T WORK, MISTER!! I'M ON TO YOU

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Kevin

There are other forums for things like that. MacNN isn't a religious forum (pro or against) so none of this really needs to be posted here. It just fosters hostility.

You just want attention/ and or start crap.Quit it.

Now, having posted that, and seeing as this is a secular forum:

What is your problem with people giving feedback that actually amounts to real criticism of the POEM itself?

I said I found it unintentionally funny. You called me hateful.

Max did a basic but extremely constructive structural analysis, and Salty got on his case for not just praising the Lord and saying it made him re-think the scripture.

I mean seriously, folks - at least ACCEPT that there is a world of human interaction with people who have their feet planted on the ground, and who might actually tell you what they think.

Jesus.

[Demonhood]

Originally Posted by Salty

And you guys wonder why I wouldn't want input from loungers in general? Sheesh you paint me as some sort of elitist forgetting that, yes some people in the lounge are genuinely stupid!

with such a high opinion of your fellow forum members, i'm shocked, shocked i tell you, to see the reaction you received.

people gave you their honest opinion about your poem and you proceed to insult them and call them ignorant. never post a creative work looking for a straight yes/no response. it's an absurd expectation.