Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Bird Flu: How Concerned Are You? 50% Die

Bird Flu: How Concerned Are You? 50% Die
Thread Tools
Cody Dawg
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Working. What about you?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 09:25 PM
 
The president apparently considers it a real threat.

Apparently it is highly lethal - 50% of those infected have died.

The president is concerned enought to start thinking about how the military would enforce martial law if it becomes an epidemic in our country.

What will any of you do if it comes to your part of the world or country?
     
JoshuaZ
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Yamanashi, Japan
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 09:53 PM
 
I should be fine. I`m thinking I would be in the 50% that would live. As for everyone else, well, I do enjoy looting.
     
chris v
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The Sar Chasm
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 09:58 PM
 
"Hmmm. Karl.... no more Saddam to catch... Osama is lost in the mountains... the ol' 9/11 invocation is starting to lose its sparkle... how else are we gonna keep people afraid?"

(edit: The president seems awfully concerned with Authoritarianism for my taste, and I worry that this is a nice trial baloon to see how people react to the concept of martial law. The words "martial law" are not to be bandied about lightly in this country.)
( Last edited by chris v; Oct 4, 2005 at 10:33 PM. Reason: stupid apostrophe!)

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
Mastrap
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 09:59 PM
 
Can we have Martian Law instead?
     
IceEnclosure
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:01 PM
 
'round here we call 'em birds, not bitches.

Cody, be concerned. Very.
ice
     
Rolling Bones
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Six feet under and diggin' it.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
Apparently it is highly lethal - 50% of those infected have died.
Top half or bottom half?
     
chris v
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The Sar Chasm
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Rolling Bones
Top half or bottom half?
The old & frail or extremely young half. It's a badass illness, for sure. So far, it hasn't travelled from human to human, only from bird to human, so it's containable for the time being. The concern is that it mutates & becomes transmissible without losing its virulence. Excellent article in the latest National Geographic, if you can handle their Librul propaganda.

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
sek929
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Cape Cod, MA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mastrap
Can we have Martian Law instead?
Is that a Sealab quote I see?

Cody, you are easily scared aren't you? Watch out for snakes too.

All of this rubbish pales in comparison to the risk you take driving everyday.
     
JoshuaZ
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Yamanashi, Japan
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:12 PM
 
I`d be more worried that when martial law was put into effect, that only `certain` people would die, and large groups of `certain` supporters would die. You know?
     
IceEnclosure
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:14 PM
 
Don't forget, she's kinda almost in South Florida too, and we have the Chupacabra!

Danger danger.
ice
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Working. What about you?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:16 PM
 
Who here has had the flu and had it badly?

I have.

It was terrible.

I had a wonderful friend who died of the flu while we were in high school. She was in 10th grade (I was in 9th grade) and her name was Linda. I could hardly believe that she died of the flu. It's still hard to accept now.
     
Disgruntled Head of C-3PO
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: In bits and pieces on Cloud City
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by chris v
"Hmmm. Karl.... no more Saddam to catch... Osama is lost in the mountains... the ol 9/11' invocation is starting to lose its sparkle... how else are we gonna keep people afraid?"
You're totally right, it is scary watching the US keep control over it's population by scaring the crap out of them.

With fear they can do whatever they want and piss away as much money as they want.
"Curse my metal body, I wasn't fast enough!"
     
dcmacdaddy
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by chris v
(edit: The president seems awfully concerned with Authoritarianism for my taste, and I worry that this is a nice trial baloon to see how people react to the concept of martial law. The words "martial law" are not to be bandied about lightly in this country.)
It's looking like that more and more, isn't it? In today's press conference he talks about using the National Guard to control the movement of individuals among states and/or regions where there was an outbreak. Just a few weeks ago it was the active duty US military, not the state National Guard units, that had to take over during the disaster cleanup in New Orleans. It's not time to break out the tin-foil hats or anything just yet but these are interesting responses to dealing with issues of national emergency.
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
sek929
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Cape Cod, MA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:21 PM
 
I've had the flu several times. But I don't want martial law to take care of it.
     
Mastrap
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
Who here has had the flu and had it badly?

There's a huge difference between the flu, which can kill in exceptional circumstances, and Asian bird flu. Like, one can be passed from human to human. The other... can't.

I too had the flu, several times in my life. I didn't need a National Guardsman to tell me what to do about it.
     
Wiskedjak
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Calgary
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy
It's looking like that more and more, isn't it? In today's press conference he talks about using the National Guard to control the movement of individuals among states and/or regions where there was an outbreak. Just a few weeks ago it was the active duty US military, not the state National Guard units, that had to take over during the disaster cleanup in New Orleans. It's not time to break out the tin-foil hats or anything just yet but these are interesting responses to dealing with issues of national emergency.
Well, it's not like he can run for re-election ...
     
hayesk
Guest
Status:
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
The president apparently considers it a real threat.

Apparently it is highly lethal - 50% of those infected have died.

The president is concerned enought to start thinking about how the military would enforce martial law if it becomes an epidemic in our country.

What will any of you do if it comes to your part of the world or country?
I'm more concerned about Bush exploiting this rather than the real threat. I also question the 50% figure. How many have had bird flu? How do we know lots of people had it and got better that just thought they had the regular flu?
     
SVass
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Washington state
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:29 PM
 
There is another election coming up next year and our great medical expert now wants new laws. Actually, our current laws allow quarantines, only shrub doesn't know it. I seem to remember all airplanes being grounded for several days starting on 9/11.

How can you stop everybody from evacuating cities like Houston when brave Texans panic? (The EAST side of hurricanes gets a storm surge, not the west side.) sam
     
quote68
Forum Regular
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: [b]orn in the usa
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:30 PM
 
Gee, maybe if we all drove suburbans we'd be protected. I hate stupid people.
dual G4 overclocked, blessed, and liquid cooled with jesus water. +5 to ogres and paladins! Nyar!
     
rjenkinson
Professional Poster
Join Date: Sep 2000
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929
I've had the flu several times. But I don't want martial law to take care of it.
the issue isn't one or two people getting the flu. the key word in the article was pandemic.

Originally Posted by WASHINGTON (CNN)
President Bush said Tuesday that the possibility of an avian flu pandemic is among the reasons he wants Congress to give him the power to use the nation's military in law enforcement roles in the United States.
-r.
     
sek929
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Cape Cod, MA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:33 PM
 
The number of total deaths due to bird flu are less than the amount of vehicle deaths in the past month.

I don't have a source but I'm fairly sure that number is accurate.

Wear repellant, if you get sick take care of yourself.

If its that big of a deal stay inside and watch TV all night, it will make the outdoors more enjoyable for me.
     
chris v
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The Sar Chasm
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:35 PM
 
that the possibility of an avian flu pandemic is among the reasons
AMONG? Reasons is plural? Can we see the whole list please?

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
JoshuaZ
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Yamanashi, Japan
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:36 PM
 
Reason: Random snacks food trying to choke the President.

It happened once before, it could happen again.
     
sek929
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Cape Cod, MA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:40 PM
 
nothing to see here, DP
     
sek929
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Cape Cod, MA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by rjenkinson
the issue isn't one or two people getting the flu. the key word in the article was pandemic.


-r.
Then I'd say there is an epidemic of people dying in car crashes. Bring in the Apache gunships!
     
FulcrumPilot
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Vladivostok.ru
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 10:42 PM
 
Only retired pilots should be afraid of this type of flu.

Oh! Here are facts:

http://www.who.int/csr/don/2004_01_15/en/

"Migratory waterfowl – most notably wild ducks – are the natural reservoir of avian influenza viruses, and these birds are also the most resistant to infection. Domestic poultry, including chickens and turkeys, are particularly susceptible to epidemics of rapidly fatal influenza."

"at least four months would be needed to produce a new vaccine, in significant quantities, capable of conferring protection against a new virus subtype."
( Last edited by FulcrumPilot; Oct 4, 2005 at 10:59 PM. )
_,.
a solitary firefly flies at nite
into the darkness an endless flight
a million flashes of delight.
     
OldManMac
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: I don't know anymore!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 11:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by chris v
"Hmmm. Karl.... no more Saddam to catch... Osama is lost in the mountains... the ol' 9/11 invocation is starting to lose its sparkle... how else are we gonna keep people afraid?"

(edit: The president seems awfully concerned with Authoritarianism for my taste, and I worry that this is a nice trial baloon to see how people react to the concept of martial law. The words "martial law" are not to be bandied about lightly in this country.)
Ding, Ding, we have a winner, folks! Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to check my closets and under my bed for terrorists.
Why is there always money for war, but none for education?
     
sek929
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Cape Cod, MA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 11:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by KarlG
Ding, Ding, we have a winner, folks! Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to check my closets and under my bed for terrorists.
Don't forget to put 7 deadbolts on your front door, also, keep an eye on your neighbors...they may be mixing WMDs in their bathtub.
     
Doofy
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vacation.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 11:18 PM
 
Not worried at all.

1) The epidemic appears to be travelling along human transportation routes - i.e. it's not being flown around but is going where the farmers are transporting their chickens.

2) The only people getting it at the moment are those in very close contact with the birds. For example, last week a guy died from bird flu after drinking a duck's blood because it's some kind of delicacy over there.

3) I'm able to go entirely self-sufficient at the drop of a hat.

4) I'm as hard as nails. Bird flu is actually scared of me.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
cheery7upper
Forum Regular
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 4, 2005, 11:38 PM
 
does it travel in all types of birds?
     
Cubeoid
Baninated
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Dead whale
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 5, 2005, 12:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by cheery7upper
does it travel in all types of birds?
Yes.
     
brapper
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 5, 2005, 02:16 AM
 
I'm blissfully ignorant.
     
meelk
Baninated
Join Date: Jan 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 5, 2005, 02:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by sek929
The number of total deaths due to bird flu are less than the amount of vehicle deaths in the past month.

I don't have a source but I'm fairly sure that number is accurate.

Wear repellant, if you get sick take care of yourself.

If its that big of a deal stay inside and watch TV all night, it will make the outdoors more enjoyable for me.

You have no antibodies against bird flu. In 1918, the last time bird flu jumped to man, it killed 25 million people. With global travel, unchecked bird flu could kill up to 300 million. This is a very real threat. I love the "I've had the flu" responses here. Answer: SO WHAT? What is hard to comprehend about a 50% mortality rate? Are you really that dense?
In China, people who have come down with bird flu have "disappeared", read: executed by the goverment. Its a very real threat.
     
Rolling Bones
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Six feet under and diggin' it.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 5, 2005, 02:48 AM
 
Feel for the birds!!!

People can be replaced.
     
Warung
Mac Elite
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Where the streets have no names...
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 5, 2005, 02:56 AM
 
I'm far more concerned about "martial law" than avian flu.

Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
     
Cubeoid
Baninated
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Dead whale
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 5, 2005, 03:24 AM
 
A bird is just a poor excuse for a human.
     
cpt kangarooski
Mac Elite
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 5, 2005, 03:47 AM
 
Meelk is correct. Influenza is capable of being an extremely deadly disease.

The 1918 flu pandemic had a 5% mortality rate, spread throughout the world rapidly, and killed at least around 25 million people in six months. Which is more than everyone that died in WW1, which had just ended. Half a million died in the US. And it didn't just kill the very young or very old; it killed lots of otherwise healthy people in their 20's and 30's. The quarantines set up at the time were basically ineffective, but they, and fear of the flu, pretty much shut down a lot of business and infrastructure for a while. And they never actually cured it; it just went away after about a year and a half. Later flu pandemics killed about a hundred thousand people in the US in the 50's and 60's.

If the H5N1 strain in Asia changes to become highly infectious to humans we'll be pretty ****ed. And even if it doesn't, sooner or later there'll be a repeat of 1918. While I agree that most of the so-called security measures taken by the government are ineffective and dangerous, and that martial law is hardly necessary (it wasn't in the past either) it is really important to prepare as best we can for the inevitable.

Meanwhile, people who dismiss the flu as not being dangerous are just idiots.
--
This and all my other posts are hereby in the public domain. I am a lawyer. But I'm not your lawyer, and this isn't legal advice.
     
sminch
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 5, 2005, 04:25 AM
 
bloody hell - it took how many posts until someone posted something about the 1918 pandemic? i was wondering if i was going to have to do it...

personally, i'm sh!t scared of bird flu being able to be transmitted person to person, and from what i've read that could well happen within the next year or two. when it does, 50% chance of dying sounds pretty bloody grim, even if that's likely to be the weakest 50% of the population.

this thing could well be the biggest killer ever. if you're not taking this seriously you're either mad or blissfully ignorant.

to answer cody's question, if it comes here i expect there's a decent chance i'll either die or be burying my wife. groovy.

sminch
     
UNTeMac
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Denton, TX
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 5, 2005, 04:42 AM
 
Am I being naive if I think modern medicine will have somewhat of a leg-up on something like this? Worrying about a 1918 scenario seems a little alarmist given the advances we've made. It won't be good but I'm far less worried than some of you. Here's my question: Can I do anything about it now? Then why let it take up my time?

To make the point a 3rd time, people afraid of a common thing are easier to control.
"This show is filmed before a live studio audience as soon as someone removes that dead guy!" - Stephen Colbert
     
IceEnclosure
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 5, 2005, 05:00 AM
 
In 1918 wasn't there a more intimate living situation between birds/chickens and people?

Can I get it through cooked poultry?

If I stay in my house and beat down with a bat anyone that comes near my home for a few months, will I be okay?

and during that time, if I go out and get some water and food for a short while, will I be okay? (assuming a bird doesn't fall out of the sky and into my mouth)

If there's, say, one case in Fort Lauderdale, should I get my mom/grandma and such the hell outta dodge? send 'em to stay with family somewhere else?

wtf with this crap man.

screw this, I want a hurricane
ice
     
Doofy
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vacation.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 5, 2005, 08:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by cpt kangarooski
Meanwhile, people who dismiss the flu as not being dangerous are just idiots.
...Or aware of the fact that there's nothing that can be done about it.

(well, short of completely stopping movement of people to and from Asia - which I don't think would wash)
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Working. What about you?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 5, 2005, 08:05 AM
 
If the flu comes - and it's only a matter of time, folks - then we'll all need some doses of Tamiflu.

I'm thinking of getting some NOW.

Seriously.

I'm going to call my doctor and ask him to write a prescription for Tamiflu before I can't get it for some reason.

I'm going to get it for myself and every person in my family and store it.

It's the only drug that has offset this strain of flu and unlike the smallpox vaccine, it's available right now - for storage.

I'd suggest that we all get some.

Now I have a vision of Spielberg or Stephen King doing a remake of The Birds with a twist: The birds give us all the flu and we all die.

     
rickey939
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cooperstown '09
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 5, 2005, 08:29 AM
 
I would be terrified if 51% die...that's over half. I can live with 50%.

     
Goldfinger
Professional Poster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 5, 2005, 08:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by sminch
personally, i'm sh!t scared of bird flu being able to be transmitted person to person, and from what i've read that could well happen within the next year or two. when it does, 50% chance of dying sounds pretty bloody grim, even if that's likely to be the weakest 50% of the population.
Same here, scared as hell. But I read that it takes 4 months to develop a vaccine, no ? And, haven't we known H5N1 for more than 4 months ?

iMac 20" C2D 2.16 | Acer Aspire One | Flickr
     
chris v
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The Sar Chasm
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 5, 2005, 09:08 AM
 
If it mutated enough to become human-to-human transmissible, a vaccine that we created now might no longer work.

Looks like the trial baloon is taking pot-shots from the left and the right:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/...eax/index.html

Of course, that article comes from CNN, a well-known librul basion of mis-information, so take it with a pound of salt, as usual.

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 5, 2005, 10:20 AM
 
rest assured, medical minds are working on the avian flu. And no, regular flu cures will not work. Neither will freaking out. Here's some info on how to best deal with regular flu--surprise, it mainly involves washing your hands: http://www.massmed.org/flu

I am very concerned about this martial law crap though.

rather than freak out without info, read here. Stay tuned to NEJM.
NEJM link 1

NEJM link 2
     
SVass
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Washington state
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 5, 2005, 11:01 AM
 
All of you running around like chickens with your heads ... won't help at all. The spread of the 1918 flu was helped by having large army encampments with many people staying together. Remember polio quarantines! Schools and movie theaters are closed. Airlines and trains will have to stop carrying people. People who are sick will have to stay home and not go to work. The last item would actually be useful. The new recession like the last one will be blamed on events outside of the administration's control as usual.

Using the army would help spread the flu as it did in 1918.

Tamiflu will be as useful as placing Michael Brown in charge of our response effort.
     
wdlove
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Boston, MA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 5, 2005, 11:20 AM
 
Hi Cody,

Thank you for bring up this very important subject.

I have received the flu vaccinations since that started in the 70's. Don't believe that I have had the flu. Have had bad colds and other types of viruses.

The most important is to wash hands frequently. Drink plenty of fluids. Eight hours of sleep at night.

Pray

"Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense." Winston Churchill
     
sek929
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Cape Cod, MA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 5, 2005, 12:36 PM
 
The Bubonic plague was pretty bad too I hear, I might as well freak out then

Calling people who don't get their panties in a twist about things out of their control stupid is so freaking lame I can barely stand it.

Once again. In the past 2 years I PERSONALLY knew 6 people who died in motor-vehicle accidents. Some stupid epidemic scare scares me about as much as rush hour on route 93.
     
El Gato
Dedicated MacNNer
Join Date: Apr 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 5, 2005, 12:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by CNN Article
Absent an effective vaccine, public health officials likely would try to stem the disease's spread by isolating people who had been exposed to it. Such a move could require the military, he said.

"I think the president ought to have all options on the table," Bush said, then corrected himself, "all assets on the table -- to be able to deal with something this significant."
I think this is pretty clear.... Bush wants to bomb quarantine zones. RUN!


     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:21 PM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,