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sek929 · Oct 13, 2005, 04:53 PM

Next you'll tell me stealing something (like my old iPod) is the same as me ripping my friend's legally bought CDs to my Mac...

milhous · Oct 13, 2005, 05:15 PM

how do you convince her?

easy. if she gets caught, then she'll get sued, and guess who'll pay the settlement fine?

you.

bad_quote · Oct 13, 2005, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by sek929

Next you'll tell me stealing something (like my old iPod) is the same as me ripping my friend's legally bought CDs to my Mac...

Not really. Music is played on the radio free. Radio stations don't let you use an ipod free. Music is shown on TV, free. Music can be rented from the library, FREE.

Walker · Oct 13, 2005, 05:36 PM

I appreciate most of the advice given here. I have already talked to her and told her that with the availability of Lost on the iTMS I have no reason to download this show from anywhere else. I still think downloading the free-over-air tv show (only the handful of times I missed it) is way different than downloading music but I see I am in the minority here and as such, I must be wrong. I'm not too stubborn to admit when I'm wrong and have done so with my daughter. Some people took some time to post some quality replies to my question and that is what makes this a great Forum.

Now I'd like to comment about other types of replies. Specifically this one:

Originally Posted by Y3a

IF you have to ask...you're an -----
SURE IT'S WRONG..
WHAT PART OF STEALING DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND???

Have your ----- daughter create something with the intentions of making money with an idea
(that IS if she is creative, which I doubt)
and then YOU give it away to everybody and
explain that it's like downloading music.

Y3a what is your problem? I posted this thread with a sincere desire to get advice. You use it as a vehicle to ridicule me and then top it off with a nasty comment about my daughter. You obviously have serious personal issues with self esteem and use this forum as a way to inflate your ego. Good luck in life. You'll need it.

itistoday · Oct 13, 2005, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by Walker

Y3a what is your problem? I posted this thread with a sincere desire to get advice. You use it as a vehicle to ridicule me and then top it off with a nasty comment about my daughter. You obviously have serious personal issues with self esteem and use this forum as a way to inflate your ego. Good luck in life. You'll need it.

You'll find lots of people like that, in real life and online. They're just more noticeable online because they can hide behind a mask of anonymity. Best just ignore them. Heck, even I know I sometimes get carried away, but at least I don't insult other people's daughters... I normally just insult the hell out of people like Y3a... [/offtopic]

Captain Obvious · Oct 13, 2005, 05:51 PM

Why do you have to convince her? You are the parent. Just block the damned ports on your router.

If she wants to download things she will have to do it elsewhere. This isnt drugs or alcohol here you actually have control over the situation if you choose to enforce it. Be a parent not a friend.

itistoday · 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious

Why do you have to convince her? You are the parent. Just block the damned ports on your router.

If she wants to download things she will have to do it elsewhere. This isnt drugs or alcohol here you actually have control over the situation if you choose to enforce it. Be a parent not a friend.

See... this is an example of where I get tempted to call the poster a "f*cking moron".

However, in doing so I would have achieved absolutely nothing other than Mr. Obvious's animosity. Personally I don't really care about that, but I think it would be better to back up my claims with reasons. Here goes:

You're a F*CKING MORON!

F*ck. That didn't work out...

By installing parental controls or blocking whatever ports on the router you are in no way convincing your daughter that stealing music is wrong. Instead, she feels the same way towards you as Mr. Obvious probably feels towards me. Then, while she may be temporarily set back, she really won't have learned any lesson at all. She'll either find a way around it (ie. using another port, duh) or use a friend's computer. Lesson not learned; and she loses respect for you.

The best thing is to use sound reasoning and just talk to her. I would recommend exactly what I said in my previous post: buy her the songs she wants. You don't have to go all out, you could do something like tell her that as long as her grades are good you'll keep buying her the songs she wants, and that you too will not be a hypocrite and will refrain from pirating TV shows.

Something like that. You say she's smart, so treat her like a smart person, not like a warden treats his prisoners.

bad_quote · Oct 13, 2005, 06:00 PM

Mr Obvious is going to make a great dad. Except that he's too into a career and making money to ever be concerned about family. Sure, he might knock some rich preppie skank up, but htey'll just both live on in their lives of consumerism and emptyness, eventually leading to divorce and unhappiness. HAHA!

Captain Obvious · Oct 13, 2005, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by bad_quote

Mr Obvious is going to make a great dad. Except that he's too into a career and making money to ever be concerned about family. Sure, he might knock some rich preppie skank up, but htey'll just both live on in their lives of consumerism and emptyness, eventually leading to divorce and unhappiness. HAHA!

Yeah of all the people on the board you are the one who should lecture about divorce.
With a record of dropping out of who knows how many Jr colleges and tech schools you'd think you would have accepted your fate and just begun to collect of welfare. Its inevitable that your townie trash wife will leave at some point and you'll be stuck going back to the same hole you grew up in.

You aren't going to get a job in the graphic design field so I don't know why you bother now. Most of the people in that area have talent or have been working long enough that they have the resume to retain their positions. You have neither. Just get yourself a job changing oil and sparkplugs and stay with what you know. It is the only chance at a future you have.

bad_quote · Oct 13, 2005, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious

Yeah of all the people on the board you are the one who should lecture about divorce.

Yep. I grew up around it. My parents split up when i was 5. My mom remarried, then got another divorce after her extremely rich husband started verbally abusing her. My uncle reminds me of you, an egocentric intelligent person who doesn't give a **** about family, only income.

With a record of dropping out of who knows how many Jr colleges and tech schools you'd think you would have accepted your fate

Dropping out? More like getting transfer credits. I dropped out of UW Platteville after I realized I didn't want to be an engineer (I was in the honors cluster for the 'smart ones'.) I then went to MATC to get some random credits, and then entered the animation program, which I might add is BETTER than what UW Madison currently has to offer. I spent a year there going part time to bolster up my portfolio in an attempt to get more scholarships at MIAD, and it worked. I get basically $10,000 per year to go to school for industrial design. So... let's see... me:2 captain dingleberry: 0

Its inevitable that your townie trash wife will leave at some point and you'll be stuck going back to the same hole you grew up in.

You mean my wife who grew up in Portage and went to UW Madison and graduated with honors and is now a copy editor for 3 national magazines? Nah, we get along great. Thanks for your concern, dick. (Me:3 captain dingleberry: 0)

You aren't going to get a job in the graphic design field so I don't know why you bother now.

Hey for once you're right about something! I'm not! I'm going to school for INDUSTRIAL DESIGN, a field you're obviously too ****ing stupid to comprehend. And sorry, I already HAVE a job in the field helping to build prototype prone carts for the veterans hospital with an important industrial designer. So you lose again! Don't you just hate it whne you're completely wrong because you're so ****ing stupid!?! I do! You're an idiot!

So anyway, other than captain dueschebag proving what a moron he is, this thread is awesome.

paul w · Oct 13, 2005, 06:45 PM

It's threads like these the make the Lounge a truly special place.

Chuckit · Oct 13, 2005, 06:56 PM

Truly special.

The Godfather · Oct 13, 2005, 06:59 PM

Both the music and TV downloading (with Bittorrent) are in the same level of legality and morality. You should set the example by learning to live without your TV shows (except the ones you can download). Maybe you will find free time to learn alligator wrestling.

Seems like your daughter could use a Napster account. Many people have realized that buying and owning music is a worse investment than buying a new car: depreciates too quickly.

tie · Oct 13, 2005, 07:33 PM

About the TV show: Whether or not "Lost" is now available for paid download seems irrelevant. That doesn't make it right for you to have downloaded it previously, nor to download shows today which aren't available for paid download. For one thing, Lost DVDs are certainly sold. Sure, you say, I would never have bought the DVD anyway. But that is exactly the argument college kids make to justify downloading music, or for pirating software for that matter. So the TV show was broadcasted for free. Does that mean you can fairly download any music that's played on the radio? Did you also download and watch all the commercials (including local commercials)?

Really, downloading TV shows is worse than downloading music. The music industry frankly deserves some hard knocks — or at least I don't feel sorry for them, with all the illegal price fixing they have engaged in.

Additionally, by contributing to a nascent TV/video piracy problem, you are making strict DRM — broadcast flags and the like — much more likely (whereas DRM systems have already been put into place for music).

sminch · Oct 13, 2005, 08:14 PM

I still think downloading the free-over-air tv show (only the handful of times I missed it) is way different than downloading music but I see I am in the minority here and as such, I must be wrong.

why one earth is downloading a tv show different to downloading music?

the tv show is played free over the tv. the music is played free over the radio.

you can record either if you chose to. you didn't choose to.

you also chose not to buy them, and instead chose to download them without paying.

taking something that isn't yours without paying is stealing.

where is there any possible chance of confusion or debate???

sminch

ps - being in the minority doesn't mean you're wrong...

rozwado1 · Oct 13, 2005, 08:26 PM

Simple solution: bitch slap your daughter.

More complex, but better solution: give her a roundhouse kick to the face. If you knock out more than 4 teeth, you've succeeded.

Final straw: Send her out on a boat with the Minnesota Vikings.

wallinbl · Oct 13, 2005, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by sminch

taking something that isn't yours without paying is stealing.

where is there any possible chance of confusion or debate???

Because the copyright infringers take issue with the word stealing. While they're big on copyright infringement, they feel that stealing is beneath them, and they are quick to point out that they are certainly not stealing.

bad_quote · Oct 13, 2005, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by rozwado1

Final straw: Send her out on a boat with the Minnesota Vikings.

HAhAHahAha

wataru · Oct 13, 2005, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by wallinbl

You are taking possession of something without paying for it when you should be paying for it. From the standpoint of your involvement, it is equivalent to stealing. You get something you should have paid for without paying for it. From the standpoint of the original owner, it is not equivalent to stealing because they have not lost anything tangible. Call it whatever you want. It's illegal and immoral.

Why do you really care if it's stealing, theft or copyright infringment? It's still not legal and it's still not right. Heck, with theft, you could get off with community service; with copyright infringement, you are much worse off.

Wrong. It is not equivalent to stealing, because stealing is defined as the deprivation of property. I'm not saying it's legal or moral; all I'm saying is that it's not theft. The difference is important, first of all because of the FUD war that the RIAA and MPAA are waging on us, and also because theft is a criminal matter, whereas copyright infringement is a civil matter. They are not equivalent, so stop saying they are.

And don't you think it's ridiculous that theft will get you community service whereas copyright infringement will get your ass sued into the ground? That's an indication that the current laws on this are unfair.

bad_quote · Oct 13, 2005, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by wataru

And don't you think it's ridiculous that theft will get you community service whereas copyright infringement will get your ass sued into the ground? That's an indication that the current laws on this are unfair.

cpt kangarooski · Oct 13, 2005, 09:39 PM

wataru--

theft is a criminal matter, whereas copyright infringement is a civil matter. They are not equivalent, so stop saying they are.

Actually, copyright infringement is both civil and criminal. (Of course, the act of theft is also going to be civilly actionable, but the civil equivalents aren't called theft)

Still, they aren't equivalent.

Demonhood · Oct 13, 2005, 10:00 PM

can we all get thru one thread without calling names?
pirates and cars seem to bring out the worst in you all.
when really, we should be celebrating pirates. the only thing cooler than a pirate is a ninja. or a robot ninja. altho a dr.ninja will do for now.

JoshuaZ · Oct 13, 2005, 10:19 PM

Walker, I`m in the same situation. Being overseas and wanting to watch one or two TV shows back in the US is a pain in the butt. Yes I download TV shows, and I enjoy doing it. But what else can we do overseas?

Plus, at least in Japan, you can rent CDs from rental stores for less then $1. Think about it. Rent a stack of CDs for $10. Go home. Rip them. Return them. Everyone knows what you`re doing. Heck, they even sell blank CDs at the counter. But when Apple goes to Sony and says `hey, let us put your content online for 100 yen a song` Sony says no.

As much as I love independant music and artists I realize that money doesn`t actualy get to them through CDs. For as much music as I download I also buy CDs from small bands directly at concerts or through their webpages. It helps me sleep at night. Then again, I do make up for downloading movies by buying way too many DVDs.

Walker: I feel your pain. I lived in South Dakota for 5 years. At least Sioux Falls was halfway fun.

Dork. · Oct 13, 2005, 10:23 PM

How about a pirate who's a monkey?

If there's one thing that cooler than pirates and ninjas, it's monkeys....

Wiskedjak · Oct 13, 2005, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by Walker

I don't feel that downloading free-over-air TV shows is the immoral equivalent of downloading copywrited music.

It is a misconception that over-air TV shows are "free". The advertising that is transmitted with those shows pays for you watching them. You are paying for those shows by giving advertisers the chance to market their products to you. Did your downloaded shows include commercials?

Think of it this way; many of the songs your daughter is likely downloading are broadcast for "free" over radio. Cannot your same argument for downloading "free" tv shows be used for downloading "free" music?

You might argue "but that music is sold on CD and in iTMS" ... well, so are those TV shows you downloaded. Have you seen the DVD box set for Lost? Not free.

OAW · Oct 13, 2005, 10:40 PM

First of all, why are you arguing with a child? You are the parent. You set the rules. Period. Dot. End of sentence.

Now assuming you are not one of those people who try to be their child's "friend" or their "buddy" instead of their parent, this is all you have to say ....

"1. Downloading music from unauthorized sites on the internet is illegal. Whether it is "right or wrong" is irrelevant.

2. The RIAA is aggressively going after illegal downloading and filesharing. Thousands of people have been sued already. Hundreds of lawsuits are announced on a regular basis.

3. I am the parent and thus I am legally responsible for your actions in this area since you are still a minor. If I get sued ... it will be a drain on my pocket to deal with the situation. And it can be ridiculously expensive.

So given points 1, 2 and 3 .... you will not illegally download music because it's my ass that's on the line. And if that doesn't register with you, you will not illegally download music because I f*cking said so!. And if you still don't get it, you won't use the computer at all. Now try me if you want to!"

OAW

Cadaver · Oct 13, 2005, 10:58 PM

Send her a fake cease-and-disist letter from the RIAA.

paul w · Oct 13, 2005, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by Cadaver

Send her a fake cease-and-disist letter from the RIAA.

Winnah!

bad_quote · Oct 13, 2005, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by OAW

"1. Downloading music from unauthorized sites on the internet is illegal. Whether it is "right or wrong" is irrelevant.

Actually it's very relevant. It used to be legal to own slaves. It used to be illegal for anybody to have alcohol. Laws are not written in stone and unchangeable. They're temporary. If you get the idea of 'right' and 'wrong' from illegal and legal you're a pretty sad piece of work. Right and wrong should come from within, not external sources.

2. The RIAA is aggressively going after illegal downloading and filesharing. Thousands of people have been sued already. Hundreds of lawsuits are announced on a regular basis.

All of my friends download music. All of their friends download music. And all of their friends. And I havent' heard of ANYBODY getting into trouble.

OAW · Oct 13, 2005, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by bad_quote

Actually it's very relevant. It used to be legal to own slaves. It used to be illegal for anybody to have alcohol. Laws are not written in stone and unchangeable. They're temporary. If you get the idea of 'right' and 'wrong' from illegal and legal you're a pretty sad piece of work. Right and wrong should come from within, not external sources.

Apparently you misread my words. My point was not to argue that it was "wrong". Instead, the point is that it is "illegal". And when it's illegal, the judge isn't going to be interested in whether or not you think it is right or wrong in court. One's opinion in that regard is in fact irrelevant. What matters in court is legal vs. illegal ... not right vs wrong.

Originally Posted by bad_quote

All of my friends download music. All of their friends download music. And all of their friends. And I havent' heard of ANYBODY getting into trouble.

Of course you can take chances. And chances are you won't be one to get sued given the odds. But again, that's not the point. The point is if you do get a letter from the RIAA then the parent is the one who has to deal with the consequences. And if you have an ounce of respect for your parents you won't take chances with their wallet like that. It's one thing to play the odds with your own ass ... it's another to do it with someone else's.

OAW

cpt kangarooski · Oct 13, 2005, 11:34 PM

Wiskedjak--

It is a misconception that over-air TV shows are "free". The advertising that is transmitted with those shows pays for you watching them. You are paying for those shows by giving advertisers the chance to market their products to you.

Nope, they're free. Viewers are under no obligation to watch ads, ever.

OAW--

3. I am the parent and thus I am legally responsible for your actions in this area since you are still a minor.

No, parents are usually not responsible for the torts of their children, and this is the case in the realm of copyright. If a child is an infringer, they may have to pay damages, but the parent won't have to for the child's offense. Hell, there was just a case in the news where the parent got it dismissed against them, and it had to be refiled against the child.

Of course, that's all under US law. According to the OP, they're in Australia, so they need to be more interested in Australian copyright law, and whether or not rights holders in Australia have been suing anyone.

kcmac · Oct 14, 2005, 12:10 AM

This is how it goes in my house and is the same as it went in my dad's house and his dad's and so on.

My house. My rules. Some day you will be able to make up your own rules. End of story. I'm not a jerk about it or anything. Consistency is the key.

Now you messed up a little. Admit you were wrong. Move on.

And it really is that easy.

Walker · Oct 14, 2005, 12:13 AM

Well, I'm on a work break right now, and I just had this damn PC lock up right when I tried to post another comment. I don't have time to write another complete response so I'll try to bottom line it.

I thought sminch put it very eloquently when he talked about how downloading both tv episodes & music is wrong even though they are both broadcast free-over-air.

I'm not scared to admit when I make a mistake. I was looking for a little insight which is why I posted my original thread. I truly didn't realize it was a black & white issue with downloading TV shows or I wouldn't have done it. Never the less, I realize that ignorance is no exuse. If it matters, you should know I've since purchased every single episode of "lost" from the iTMS.

A few people seem to have taken the liberty to judge my parenting skills based on this one issue. The "be a parent & not a friend" accusation is completely without merit in my situation. Just because I take time to listen to my daughter's viewpoint and consider her ideas doesn't mean I allow her to do whatever she pleases.

lw

Mr. Blur · Oct 14, 2005, 12:40 AM

How many threads have there been where this very same argument goes around in the very same circles? Countless.

I just hope that those of you that use every lame justification for your downloading music from p2p or other sites where the artist does not receive their due never have to earn a living that depends on royalties from *paid* sales of your work.

It matters not how "evil" the RIAA or the record companies are - even amongst all that so-called evil the artist does receive payment and if you d/l unauthorized versions you are depriving them of their income and you are wrong.

bad_quote · Oct 14, 2005, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by Walker

Just because I take time to listen to my daughter's viewpoint and consider her ideas doesn't mean I allow her to do whatever she pleases.

lw

A lot of people on this forum are complete retards. Don't take it personally, there's just a lot of stupid people around here.

Railroader · Oct 14, 2005, 01:16 AM

Those who do illegal things that the population in general has determined to be detrimental to a productive society are simply deviants and should be treated as such. You don't want to live by our laws, fine, move to a country that shares your views or face fines and possible jail time. To justify your illegal activities on an internet forum is pathetically hilarious at best.

Walker, I thing it's wrong to downlaod TV shows on the internet. There are many legal ways to get the content you want, sometimes they just take a little patience. One of the best lessons you can teach your daughter is not simply the legal aspect of this situation, but the self control and patience of waiting until you can legally obtain what you want.

To compare this situation to the condtion of slavery is astoundingly shallow. You should be ashamed of yourself if you thing in this manner that illegal song downloading is comparable to basic human rights shows you have no concept of basic human rights.

Lastly, how many of you have friends who are musicians and lived exclusively on sales of their art? I do, and I know how hard it is to make a name for yourself and make a living at it. To think that someone is "stealing" money from you and justifying it would destroy my desire to commit to my art.

SirCastor · Oct 14, 2005, 01:56 AM

Yeah. You were probably wrong to download the Show. I recommend you call a truce over the matter and suggest that you expect to hold her to (and be held) to a higher law.

Then, block the ports the software goes out on. (I assume you're doing broadband here.)

Walker · Oct 14, 2005, 01:57 AM

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

Walker, I`m in the same situation. Being overseas and wanting to watch one or two TV shows back in the US is a pain in the butt. Yes I download TV shows, and I enjoy doing it. But what else can we do overseas?

Plus, at least in Japan, you can rent CDs from rental stores for less then $1. Think about it. Rent a stack of CDs for $10. Go home. Rip them. Return them. Everyone knows what you`re doing. Heck, they even sell blank CDs at the counter. But when Apple goes to Sony and says `hey, let us put your content online for 100 yen a song` Sony says no.

As much as I love independant music and artists I realize that money doesn`t actualy get to them through CDs. For as much music as I download I also buy CDs from small bands directly at concerts or through their webpages. It helps me sleep at night. Then again, I do make up for downloading movies by buying way too many DVDs.

Walker: I feel your pain. I lived in South Dakota for 5 years. At least Sioux Falls was halfway fun.

JoshuaZ, how did you get to Japan from South Dakota? Sioux Falls is still a great city. And with global warming the winters aren't so bad either!

smacintush · Oct 14, 2005, 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by bad_quote

Stupid people need guidance.

You have a point there. Laws are indeed in place for the sake of stupid people. Now excuse me, a friend and I are going out to drive 100mph down public roads…later.

Railroader · Oct 14, 2005, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by smacintush

You have a point there. Laws are indeed in place for the sake of stupid people. Now excuse me, a friend and I are going out to drive 100mph down public roads…later.

Don't forget your wanna-be-ninja throwing stars.

smacintush · Oct 14, 2005, 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by Walker

Just because I take time to listen to my daughter's viewpoint and consider her ideas doesn't mean I allow her to do whatever she pleases.

As the father of a teenage daughter I think I understand where you are coming from. There is nothing wrong with LISTENING to your daughter and taking her opinions into consideration. I think, however, that you have to choose your battles. This is not a case where you should be flexible because it involves laws that are out of your hands. Violating laws, even what some may view as "dumb" laws, is ultimately an adult decision and as an adult one has to deal with the consequences. You have an obligation as a parent to enforce laws of the land in your home so as to help demonstrate proper respect for the law.

I wouldn't worry one bit about being hypocritical. That is the nature of parenting. How many other things do you do now or did you do as a teen that you would not allow her to do?

Ratm · 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by Walker

Just because I take time to listen to my daughter's viewpoint and consider her ideas doesn't mean I allow her to do whatever she pleases.

lw

I get it now. It's for the sake of understanding. My father was the same way and I was very grateful for having a father that would listen. How else can you help your children and guide them if you don't listen to them.

And I think you were right on the issue of TV programs. They've always allowed us to recored them to VHS and now PVR to view later. Just because you download them over the net doesn't make this different. It's not like downloading music. And It's not like you were downloading the full session of DVD quality rips that were uncompressed. I think it's fine, nothing to worry about. Apple is even offering free songs on the daily basis. So it makes me kind reconsider the whole thing. I guess as long as it's not a mass pirating it's cool. Whatever. I don't know anymore.

At first I was all for the new offerings but other users have helped me to understand that until Apple offers users better quality TV files it's not a good idea to send the message that what they're currently offering the public is a good deal.

Nicko · Oct 14, 2005, 03:27 AM

Downloading music is clearly immoral. Stick to buying bootleg cds in the back alley.

Athens · Oct 14, 2005, 03:28 AM

who cares as long as she buys some of her music, wouldn't bother me.

qnxde · Oct 14, 2005, 06:04 AM

Why don't you let her form her own morals instead of trying to foist your own at her?

wallinbl · Oct 14, 2005, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by wataru

Wrong. It is not equivalent to stealing, because stealing is defined as the deprivation of property. I'm not saying it's legal or moral; all I'm saying is that it's not theft. The difference is important, first of all because of the FUD war that the RIAA and MPAA are waging on us, and also because theft is a criminal matter, whereas copyright infringement is a civil matter. They are not equivalent, so stop saying they are.

You are here.

My point is over here. Perhaps someday you will run into each other.

dialo · Oct 14, 2005, 09:33 AM

Walker, the biggest problem here is that your beliefs about downloading music, including likely supporting beliefs left unmentioned, happen to be wrong. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when she goes to college, becomes more educated and potentially learns the facts about the situation. It could just cause more friction when she finds out that what you tried to have her believe is untrue and based on misconceptions. The best thing for you to do is to take the time to learn about the reality of the situation, the actual legal issues and the truth about the BS put out by content companies. If you aren't willing to do that, then stay out of the ethics and let her learn on her own. Since your opinion isn't informed it's really a bad idea to try to get her to adopt it. Parents have to be aware of their limitations and know that they can't always have the answer for everything. Remember that kids can generally tell when a parent's argument is flawed and weak, even if the kid doesn't yet have understand exactly how that argument is flawed. The only thing that really affects you is the possibility of a lawsuit, so keep the focus of the discussion there.

bad_quote · Oct 14, 2005, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by dialo

Walker, the biggest problem here is that your beliefs about downloading music, including likely supporting beliefs left unmentioned, happen to be wrong. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when she goes to college, becomes more educated and potentially learns the facts about the situation. It could just cause more friction when she finds out that what you tried to have her believe is untrue and based on misconceptions. The best thing for you to do is to take the time to learn about the reality of the situation, the actual legal issues and the truth about the BS put out by content companies. If you aren't willing to do that, then stay out of the ethics and let her learn on her own. Since your opinion isn't informed it's really a bad idea to try to get her to adopt it. Parents have to be aware of their limitations and know that they can't always have the answer for everything. Remember that kids can generally tell when a parent's argument is flawed and weak, even if the kid doesn't yet have understand exactly how that argument is flawed. The only thing that really affects you is the possibility of a lawsuit, so keep the focus of the discussion there.

Nice response. I remember a few years ago when I thought I knew most things. Now I feel like I know almost nothing. I guess that means I'm getting older.

ryaxnb · Oct 14, 2005, 01:07 PM

I'm not sure why I illegally download (just like 10 songs or so and 5 tv shows). I'm trying to stop. This makes me no help.

But anyways, yeah, do what everyone else is suggesting. Make a big deal out of stopping. I'm not sure you should enforce punishment. Does enforcing work for her? Does she try to get out of it? You can't really enforce punishment; you can just make it more difficult. Never ground anyone. But get grumpy whenever she does it. And make sure to block all file-sharing ports on your router/firewall, set a good password, and carefully monitor for usenet programs or activities. Do regular searches through history of browser for Google groups and search for Unison on your HD.

uuuuut · Oct 14, 2005, 03:18 PM

You're being a hypocrite. I don't care that you are against downloading music - there are some valid arguments for that point of view, which many in this thread would like to ignore, but that's not the point.

The reason you're being a hypocrite is because you support copyright violation when it benefits you, but not your daughter. You're telling her "do what I say, not what I do." If you think downloading a TV show is equivalent to recording it on VHS, then why download it - why not put it on VHS? Because it's less convenient. Because VHS sucks. Because you can download it anytime, buy only have one opportunity to record it to VHS. Because the commercials have been cut out, which you can't automatically do with VHS.

They are far from equivalent, my friend. Far from equivalent.