[Tesseract]

Originally Posted by lavar78

You're wrong. "Got" and "gotten" are not interchangeable.

OK, here comes Dictionary.app:

Originally Posted by Dictionary.app

get |get| verb ( getting ; past got |gät|; past part. got or gotten

So there's 'gotten' in the OED. I can understand that, since it's in such common use. They even have a 'usage note' which explains the kinds of situations in which 'gotten' might be used. But that does not mean that one is required to use 'gotten' in certain situations, technically 'got' has got the same meaning.

I was simply expressing a personal dislike of the word 'gotten'. Some people agree with me, that's wonderful. Others may not, that's fine too (though I wish they would use a less colloquial term in formal written communication).

I thought this thread was about expressing opinions about words and pronunciations, no?

[brink]

Originally Posted by Tesseract

The word 'gotten' is an abomination. I've even seen it in fairly formal communication. 'Got' is perfectly fine (and I'm not even British).

'Gotten' is just as correct as 'got'. Both used to be common in Britain and America as the past participle of 'get', but now only American English still has both forms. They let us make a handy distinction between, for example, 'I haven't got the money' (i.e., I don't have it) and 'I haven't gotten the money' (i.e., I haven't received it) -- a distinction that's been lost across the pond.

People tend to assume that the British variety is older wherever usage differs between Britain and America, but in fact the opposite is often true. 'Gotten' is one example. We've also kept the old word for autumn -- fall -- and the older (and more etymologically correct) -ize spelling in words like 'realize'.

[brink]

Originally Posted by :dragonflypro:

heh, who can name the one actual word that rhymes with it?

Simular?

[Tesseract]

Originally Posted by brink

'Gotten' is just as correct as 'got'. Both used to be common in Britain and America as the past participle of 'get', but now only American English still has both forms. They let us make a handy distinction between, for example, 'I haven't got the money' (i.e., I don't have it) and 'I haven't gotten the money' (i.e., I haven't received it) -- a distinction that's been lost across the pond.

People tend to assume that the British variety is older wherever usage differs between Britain and America, but in fact the opposite is often true. 'Gotten' is one example. We've also kept the old word for autumn -- fall -- and the older (and more etymologically correct) -ize spelling in words like 'realize'.

I did not mean to suggest that 'got' was more correct because it was older, or because it was 'traditional' British usage. In fact, I was aware of that history (and also the history of -ize/-ise) when I made my original post. I simply meant that I don't like 'gotten', and that I feel it is inappropriate in formal documents. See above.

[brink]

Okily dokily!

[fxbezak]

Ok.. i live in Ohio
If you are from Ohio or know anyone from here .. you already understand

they say INNNNsurance not inSURance
they say motorsicle not motorcycle
they say oxiliary not auxilary
they say loulville not louisville
they say rowte not route
Pool and Pull are NOT the same F@#&ing word

and just cause it pisses me off.... when you dont hear someone.. dont say "please" say excuse me.

Ohio seriously needs it's own thread

[lavar78]

Originally Posted by Tesseract

OK, here comes Dictionary.app:


So there's 'gotten' in the OED. I can understand that, since it's in such common use. They even have a 'usage note' which explains the kinds of situations in which 'gotten' might be used. But that does not mean that one is required to use 'gotten' in certain situations, technically 'got' has got the same meaning.

I said, "'Got' and 'gotten' are not interchangeable." Are you saying that they are? Does "I haven't got the money" really mean both "I don't have the money" and "I haven't gone to get the money" in British English?

I was simply expressing a personal dislike of the word 'gotten'. Some people agree with me, that's wonderful. Others may not, that's fine too (though I wish they would use a less colloquial term in formal written communication).

I'd say you stopped expressing a personal dislike of "gotten" when you mentioned your desire for people to use a "less colloquial term in formal written communication." Is it a fact that "gotten" is more colloquial than "got." I don't think that's the case. Do you have a link?

I thought this thread was about expressing opinions about words and pronunciations, no?

It's my opinion that "gotten" is much more formal than "got." "The members of the Get-Along Gang have got along for a long time." Shudder

[Tesseract]

Originally Posted by lavar78

I said, "'Got' and 'gotten' are not interchangeable." Are you saying that they are? Does "I haven't got the money" really mean both "I don't have the money" and "I haven't gone to get the money" in British English?


I'd say you stopped expressing a personal dislike of "gotten" when you mentioned your desire for people to use a "less colloquial term in formal written communication." Is it a fact that "gotten" is more colloquial than "got." I don't think that's the case. Do you have a link?


It's my opinion that "gotten" is much more formal than "got." "The members of the Get-Along Gang have got along for a long time." Shudder

Arguments for not using 'gotten' (or 'got') for that matter: http://users.wpi.edu/~nab/sci_eng/98_May_22.html, http://www.bartleby.com/68/30/2930.html

And, an argument on your side: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_294.html

Go ahead and use 'gotten' if you wish. I will continue to avoid it in favor of either 'got' (if it doesn't sound 'strange') or else try to find some other, more precise term.

Originally Posted by fxbezak

they say INNNNsurance not inSURance

I think these are the same people who say 'fin-ANCE-ing'.
Mostly radio commercial announcers.

[lavar78]

Oh, don't get me wrong; I don't particularly care for either word in formal communication. There's usually a "better" way.

[DeathMan]

as long as they don't say gots. I gotsta get me some o dat. or "He gots a whole mess a guns in his garage (also a strangely pronounced word)"

has anyone ever heard usually pronounced use-ah-lee, instead of uj-oo-ah-lee (J as in bejjjjing)

I like to pronounce Antenna as An-tanna. You brits call it a aerial. Which I always think is a cool word, but not as cool as an-tanna. And I like the pronunciation They Might Be Giants use in the song James K Polk for Oregon.

[loki74]

Originally Posted by Tesseract

Do you mean like the 'o' in 'dock'? I've never heard 'offer' pronounced like that (the pronunciation where I live is something like 'auffer').
Or is there yet another pronunciation of 'Nevada' I don't know about?

heh, yeah, "o" as in "dock." Its like "and in Nev-AHHhhHHHHhh-dah," just bugs the hell outta me, don't know why.

[JamesKass]

People who use "chomping at the bit" instead of "champing at the bit".
People who say "It's a mute point" instead of "It's a moot point".

GRRRR....

[Gee4orce]

The way Americans pronounce just about any British place name:

It's "Edin-bruh" not "Eding-boro" or "Edin-burg" (Edinburgh)
(same for Scarborough, and any other -orough)

its "Darbee", not "Derbee" (Derby)

it's "Wooster", not "Wor-chester" or "Wor-cester" (Worcester)

It's "York-shuh" not "York-SHIIYRE" (Yorkshire - all "-shires" are pronounced "-shuh")

and it's "Buckin-um Palace", not "Buck-inG-Ham"

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by UNTiMac

I hate "ofTen" where the "t" is actually enunciated. Maybe one of the linguistic experts can correct me on that being wrong but I hate it just the same.

Both are correct.

Adjectives and adverbs ending in -ft that become adjectives, adverbs, or verbs by adding -en usually do lose the -t-, but in the case of 'often', it may still be retained, if one so desires.

Compare: often [from 'oft']; soften [from 'soft']; fasten [from 'fast']; listen [from *'list']; etc.

Originally Posted by PurpleGiant

Oisín's favourite thread, ever.

Well, one of them, surely

volkswahgen vs. folkswahgen

(though that may just be my northern accent...)

Nope. I'd go for 'folksvahgen' as the only 'correct' one (though, as analogika says, it's a foreign word [not even a loan word], so there's more free play). And not 'folk' as the normal English word 'folk' (as in 'my folks'), but pronounced to rhyme with 'bulk'. 'Fulksvahgen'.

Of course, I'd normally just call it Folkevogn, but that's just me and five million other people

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Gee4orce

it's "Wooster", not "Wor-chester" or "Wor-cester" (Worcester)

And Leicester, too.

And how common is in Britain to pronounce Manchester as 'Manster'? I heard it quite a few times, spread out over most of the country, when I was there, but I'd never heard it before.

and it's "Buckin-um Palace", not "Buck-inG-Ham"

Ah, I've been pwned! I've always pronounced the g. Not the h, though. Bucking-um is how I've always said it.

I also just adooore it [sarcasm dripping] when Danes pronounce names like David Beckham as Beck-haaaaam, making sure the last syllable is long and sounds exactly like a normal ham. Ngh.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by DeathMan

as long as they don't say gots. I gotsta get me some o dat. or "He gots a whole mess a guns in his garage (also a strangely pronounced word)"

Whenever I venture back to the block, "gotsta" magically returns to the vocabulary. When I leave, it stays there on the block. Uzhalee.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by fxbezak

Ok.. i live in Ohio
If you are from Ohio or know anyone from here .. you already understand

they say INNNNsurance not inSURance
they say motorsicle not motorcycle
they say oxiliary not auxilary
they say loulville not louisville
they say rowte not route
Pool and Pull are NOT the same F@#&ing word

and just cause it pisses me off.... when you dont hear someone.. dont say "please" say excuse me.

Ohio seriously needs it's own thread

Funny post. But all I know is, the correct way of saying "Route 66" is ROOT 66.

The ONLY time ROWTE is acceptable in this context is when Nat King Cole, in singing the Bobby Troupe classic, pronounces it that way as though saying it in jest or in an amiable tip of the cap to those who might INSIST their inferior pronunciation be given some recognition.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Oisín

And how common is in Britain to pronounce Manchester as 'Manster'? I heard it quite a few times, spread out over most of the country, when I was there, but I'd never heard it before.

Never heard it.

Originally Posted by Oisín

Ah, I've been pwned! I've always pronounced the g. Not the h, though. Bucking-um is how I've always said it.

We say it "Buck-ing-ham" here.

(and that's less than 30 miles away from Gee4orce. I don't know what retarded part of the county he comes from)

[Oisín]

One more: a 'written mispronunciation'. When people write K to signify 'okay'. I'm fine with OK, or just 'kay, if you want to show that particular pronunciation. But just K is so annoying.

Originally Posted by Doofy

(and that's less than 30 miles away from Gee4orce. I don't know what retarded part of the county he comes from)

Well, that was only completely self-contradictory...

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Tesseract

OK, here comes Dictionary.app:


So there's 'gotten' in the OED. I can understand that, since it's in such common use. They even have a 'usage note' which explains the kinds of situations in which 'gotten' might be used. But that does not mean that one is required to use 'gotten' in certain situations, technically 'got' has got the same meaning.

I was simply expressing a personal dislike of the word 'gotten'. Some people agree with me, that's wonderful. Others may not, that's fine too (though I wish they would use a less colloquial term in formal written communication).

I thought this thread was about expressing opinions about words and pronunciations, no?

It's like being a vegetarian at work and the boss is buying pizzas for all. NOBODY wants JUST cheese and so only one cheese pizza is ordered. But when they arrive EVERYONE wants to try some of the cheese pizza so all you get is one measly slice.

Well, this is SOMETHING like that.

There are relatively few threads devoted to grammar. Yuck. Who'd be interested in that!?

But when it starts, EVERYBODY likes it and it flows from one subject of language to another.

It's all good.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by mojo2

There are relatively few threads devoted to grammar. Yuck. Who'd be interested in that!?

Me?

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Oisín

If people say that, you and Peter should just served them to Pho in retribution.

ROFLMAO!

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Oisín

Me?

I'll keep that in mind! And you will, of course, remember me when it comes to: warning the world of the dangers of an oil shortage, proclaiming the evils of Ms. Sheehan and linking them both to OBL!

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Doofy

(and that's less than 30 miles away from Gee4orce. I don't know what retarded part of the county he comes from)

Originally Posted by Oisín

Well, that was only completely self-contradictory...

Not really. I know I'm in the same county as Gee4orce but not where he is. Nowhere in the county is more than 30 miles away.

[Chris O'Brien]

Originally Posted by brink

'Gotten' is just as correct as 'got'. Both used to be common in Britain and America as the past participle of 'get', but now only American English still has both forms. They let us make a handy distinction between, for example, 'I haven't got the money' (i.e., I don't have it) and 'I haven't gotten the money' (i.e., I haven't received it) -- a distinction that's been lost across the pond.

People tend to assume that the British variety is older wherever usage differs between Britain and America, but in fact the opposite is often true. 'Gotten' is one example. We've also kept the old word for autumn -- fall -- and the older (and more etymologically correct) -ize spelling in words like 'realize'.

What makes you think that Brits don't use the word gotten?

[teney7]

Axing questions...

Excaping from prison...

[Warung]

I hate it when people pronounce "router", "rooter" (as in root beer) instead of "rauter" as in "auto".

/let the flamefest begin. *g*

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Not really. I know I'm in the same county as Gee4orce but not where he is. Nowhere in the county is more than 30 miles away.

Oops, I misread 'county' for 'country' in your first post. I thought you said he was 30 miles away, but you didn't know which end of the country he was in

Originally Posted by Warung

I hate it when people pronounce "router", "rooter" (as in root beer) instead of "rauter" as in "auto".

Oh, so you want it to be like raw-ter, izzit?

Are you talking about network routers, or the carpentry plane thingamalingy, by the way?

[SVass]

Surname and location pronunciations by those who don't make an effort to use one preferred by the owner(s) at the time. Illinoiz (Illinoy), New Orleens (Orluns), and Biloxi (Biluxi) are current examples. By the way, double negatives were (and still are) correct when used for emphasis. sam

[Eug Wanker]

My GF's sis-in-law speaks fluent Italian, and she says "expresso". Drives me up the wall, particularly because it's spelled "espresso" in Italian.

However, some English dictionaries seem to accept the spelling "expresso" now.

Originally Posted by Gee4orce

and it's "Buckin-um Palace", not "Buck-inG-Ham"

Bucknam Pellis

[BlueSky]

I did a quick scan of the thread and didn't see this...if it's been mentioned, please forklift me.

I find it annoying when escalator is pronounced esc-U-lator, percalator as perc-U-lator and so on...there's a whole bunch of similar words where some people throw that u in there. Stop it. We're running out of u's because of you.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by BlueSky

percolator as perc-U-lator

Fixinated.

[Gee4orce]

Originally Posted by Doofy

We say it "Buck-ing-ham" here.

(and that's less than 30 miles away from Gee4orce. I don't know what retarded part of the county he comes from)

??????? Well, 30 miles away from you, by the sound of it

C'mon. The only person who pronounces every single phoneme if 'Buckingham Palace' is the bloody queen ! I suppose what I was trying to get at was the American tourist pronunciation where the '-HAM' part is very clear. Most Brits would say '-UM'

Dpn't we have any Welsh folk here ? They must be pretty wound up, because nobody can pronounce Welsh placenames (including the Welsh, I suspect).

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Gee4orce

Don't we have any Welsh folk here ? They must be pretty wound up, because nobody can pronounce Welsh placenames (including the Welsh, I suspect).

What are you talking about? There's nothing simpler to pronounce than Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwillllantisili ogogogoch!

Besides, Welsh place names are a lot easier to pronounce than English ones, 'cause they're all pronounced regularly, no silly exceptions.

[Tesseract]

Originally Posted by Oisín

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwillllantisili ogogogoch!

Which, of course, is pronounced like 'strawberry'.

[D. Hendrickson]

"for sell" instead of "for sale"

"mouf" instead of "mouth"

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Tesseract

Which, of course, is pronounced like 'strawberry'.

See, piece of cake.

[Scientist]

It is Zo-ology (Rhymes with "toe"-ology)
NOT
Zoo-ology (The place where animals are kept.)

And I don't care what the dictionary says, I am right.

[brink]

Originally Posted by Gee4orce

The way Americans pronounce just about any British place name:

It's "Edin-bruh" not "Eding-boro" or "Edin-burg" (Edinburgh)
(same for Scarborough, and any other -orough)

its "Darbee", not "Derbee" (Derby)

it's "Wooster", not "Wor-chester" or "Wor-cester" (Worcester)

It's "York-shuh" not "York-SHIIYRE" (Yorkshire - all "-shires" are pronounced "-shuh")

and it's "Buckin-um Palace", not "Buck-inG-Ham"

I grew up in New England, so I know how to pronounce Woos-tah. As for the rest, let's make a deal -- we'll stop mispronouncing your place names if you stop mispronouncing ours. Lesson one: the 'Las' in Las Vegas is pronounced [lɑs], not [læs]...

[brink]

Originally Posted by Black Book

What makes you think that Brits don't use the word gotten?

It isn't especially common in Britain. Or is it?

[waxcrash]

I remember being in a restaurant a few years ago and hearing the lady next to me order the fajitas pronouncing it with a hard j. I couldn't stop laughing.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Randman

When people pronounce forte as "four-tay" rather than "fort".

Yeah, thanks to Starbucks: Grande latte !

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by teney7

Des Moines vs. Dez Moinez
uhhh... come on, people

Mwahahaha.

-t

[Tesseract]

I do tend to pronounce 'shoppe' as 'shoppie' to call attention to the stupidity of the spelling.
But if I ever go to Brooklyn, I might have to abandon that practice to avoid confusion with felt-tip markers.

[Fred_Cokebottle]

Labotary!

[teknopimp]

mature > "mah-TOOR" ??

that's like 50s grandma old school.

...and all the twisted up ebonics crap bugs the sh!t out of me.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Scientist

It is Zo-ology (Rhymes with "toe"-ology)
NOT
Zoo-ology (The place where animals are kept.)

And I don't care what the dictionary says, I am right.

Well, I'll smack you with it anyway: both are correct!

'Zoo' (the place where animals are kept) is an abbreviation of zoological garden, so how can zoology (and thereby zoological) not be with a long o?

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by Oisín

Also not a mispronunciation. In fact, historically speaking, ['ɛksɪt] is the mispronunciation, since an x between two vowels (where the x is not the beginning of a new syllable, in Greek loan words) was pronounced as -gz-, not -ks-, in 16th century Latin, which is where the word is taken from.

Do you have a source for that? 'x' is always pronounced 'ks' in Latin as far as I know.

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by Oisín

Well, I'll smack you with it anyway: both are correct!

'Zoo' (the place where animals are kept) is an abbreviation of zoological garden, so how can zoology (and thereby zoological) not be with a long o?

Whenever I see the word 'Zoological' I have an urge to split the 'oo' into two syllables.

[loki74]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned before... but I was just thinking about how I missed the Greek festival here in Vegas and it reminded me: Gyros. I think its pronounced similar to "euro," or something like that, NOT "guy-roh" or "jai-roh." I don't care a whole lot, but I have a couple of Greek friends...