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KraziKid · Jun 29, 2006, 08:38 PM

Well, I never really had a whine issue, but now that I have upgraded to 10.4.7, it has started, and is driving me insane.

The machine is a Week 16 model, and I was under the impression that the whine was solved by this point. I bought it more than 2 weeks ago, so a direct replacement is no longer an option.

Does anyone have experience bringing it in for this issue and getting it fixed? I use this machine a lot, so to go without it for a week will be extremely painful. I dont want to send it out if Apple isn't fixing it yet.

So, is Apple fixing them when people send them in, or does the issue resurface? Also, is there any way to persuade the genius to just replace it for me, vs me having to send it in? I know this makes me sound like a jerk, but I dropped 3 G's on this machine, and for it to suddenly start making a freakin annoying noise, it's BS, and I feel that a replacement on the spot is the only right thing to do for us with this issue.

Thanks for all your help.

dahcar · Jun 30, 2006, 03:30 PM

Exchanging it won't do much. You will most likely get another whiner. I think it's the keyboard update that makes it much worse, which was included in 10.4.7. When I installed the keyboard update by itself about a month ago, it began whining. I found a way to replace the update with the previous version, but I cannot find it now. I'm assuming that is all that needs to be done. I'll get it again and post my findings.

KraziKid · Jun 30, 2006, 06:29 PM

Thanks, I appreciate your help. I would have thought that by now Apple would have fixed this issue, since my understanding is it is related to how the CPU is soldered to the motherboard.

From what an insider at Intel told me, when the CPU enters a certain sleep mode, this solder junction starts to vibrate at a harmonic frequency, which causes the whine. I would figure by now, something that would seem so simple from my perspective (EE), would have been taken care of.

I don't believe any other Core Duo based laptop whines, which makes this specific to Apple's manufacturing.

dahcar · 12:30 AM

Here's a link to the Apple forums. Read the instructions in the second post. Follow the link and download the file for 10.4.6 named IOUSBFamily.kext 2.5.0 and install the file WITHOUT -log in the name. My MBP rarely whined but when it did I used the mirrow widget, which works now.

*Do this at your own risk. I am fairly new to Macs, so I don't really understand what exactly this does, but I used this before without any problems and it works.

http://discussions.apple.com/thread....31486&#2231486

ghporter · Jun 30, 2006, 08:55 PM

dahcar, you forgot the link...

KraziKid, I'm not sure it has anything to do with the processor-I think it's more related to power management internally. In fact, it sounds like a switching power supply issue. And the CPU isn't soldered in-it's socketed.

KraziKid · Jun 30, 2006, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

dahcar, you forgot the link...

KraziKid, I'm not sure it has anything to do with the processor-I think it's more related to power management internally. In fact, it sounds like a switching power supply issue. And the CPU isn't soldered in-it's socketed.

The CPU on the MacBook Pro is certainly soldered in. And it is related to a solder joint vibrating at a harmonic frequency, according to my friend, who has worked on these processors.

While I am sure it could possibly be something else, I am just repeating what a trusted friend told me.

dahcar · 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by ghporter

dahcar, you forgot the link...

KraziKid, I'm not sure it has anything to do with the processor-I think it's more related to power management internally. In fact, it sounds like a switching power supply issue. And the CPU isn't soldered in-it's socketed.

Sorry, i forgot the link: http://discussions.apple.com/thread....31486&#2231486

KraziKid · Jul 1, 2006, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by dahcar

Sorry, i forgot the link: http://discussions.apple.com/thread....31486&#2231486

I tried your suggestion, and it has not fixed it. Man, this whine is really unbearable. So no one is getting new ones without the whine yet?

dahcar · Jul 1, 2006, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by KraziKid

I tried your suggestion, and it has not fixed it. Man, this whine is really unbearable. So no one is getting new ones without the whine yet?

that's weird two other people i know tried it and it worked. good luck with it.

ghporter · Jul 1, 2006, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by KraziKid

The CPU on the MacBook Pro is certainly soldered in. And it is related to a solder joint vibrating at a harmonic frequency, according to my friend, who has worked on these processors.

While I am sure it could possibly be something else, I am just repeating what a trusted friend told me.

Appologies-I was thinking of the MacBook, rather than the Pro. The MacBook's CPU is socketed.

A good solder joint will not vibrate at all-it's supposed to be a solid connection. Solder, applied properly, establishes a solid mechanical and chemical bond between the two parts of the joint, so there should be absolutely no vibration. And with the extremely short lengths of leads on the Core Duo processor, it's hard to see how any vibration on any lead or group of leads could cause enough vibration to be noticed-there just isn't enough mass to vibrate. I'd have to see some real solid evidence that there's a specific joint that is vibrating in a specific way before I'd buy something vague like this. Sorry, I don't mean to say your friend is wrong, but rather that I want proof before I believe third hand information.

I'd be much more ready to believe that the inverter for the screen's backlight is causing the sound, because a lot of inverters do this; they include an oscillator and will make a sound that's a sub-harmonic of the oscillator frequency, particularly when they are pulling a lot of current. This is related to the sound a switching power supply can make when it is pulling a lot of current and comes from the same source, the switching transistors.

Dave Hagan · Jul 1, 2006, 10:14 AM

It's the DC board making the whine. If it were the processor, then people that own the iMac or Mac mini would be complaining about it too.

Peabo · Jul 1, 2006, 10:44 AM

The trick with the kext worked fine on 10.4.6, but I did it with 10.4.7 (you're meant to download the 2.4 version, not the 2.5) and my built in isight stopped working, so it's a no-go unless you really don't use it.

KraziKid · Jul 1, 2006, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Dave Hagan

It's the DC board making the whine. If it were the processor, then people that own the iMac or Mac mini would be complaining about it too.

Oh my god, does no one read my post? It's not the processor itself, its the solder joint from one of the pins of the processor, to the logic board.

The reason the iMac or Mac mini do not experience this is this are socketed processors. They are not soldered directly to the logic board.

Cadaver · Jul 1, 2006, 07:09 PM

No such whine from my machine.
If you're convinced its a pin on the processor, then no amount of software will fix it. Send it in for a motherboard swap.

ghporter · Jul 1, 2006, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by KraziKid

Oh my god, does no one read my post?

And did you not read mine? As I said, I have a hard time imagining a pin that is only a couple of millimeters long BEFORE it's soldered in causing enough vibration to be noticable-completely ignoring the fact that ripple solder machines CANNOT screw up a solder joint. I just can't see it unless you provide some real evidence-pin number, location, etc.

This is also kind of hard to believe when the sound seems to come (amazingly enough) from the same location as the DC board-which I believe is the inverter for the display.

KraziKid · Jul 1, 2006, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

And did you not read mine? As I said, I have a hard time imagining a pin that is only a couple of millimeters long BEFORE it's soldered in causing enough vibration to be noticable-completely ignoring the fact that ripple solder machines CANNOT screw up a solder joint. I just can't see it unless you provide some real evidence-pin number, location, etc.

This is also kind of hard to believe when the sound seems to come (amazingly enough) from the same location as the DC board-which I believe is the inverter for the display.

Mine is not related to the display inverter. The volume of the noise is independent of the brightness of the display.

The sound on mine is coming from right where the CPU is located. It comes from the locations of around where the U, H, J, and K keys are, which is right where the heat pipe from the CPU is mounted.

dialo · Jul 1, 2006, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

This is also kind of hard to believe when the sound seems to come (amazingly enough) from the same location as the DC board-which I believe is the inverter for the display.

Are you not aware that there are two different whines that each occur on separate sides? The display inverter whine only occurs on the right side, the "cpu whine" occurs on the left side. They are different and there are thousands of posts explaining this on any apple forum. You can even call apple or talk to the techs at your local apple store and they'll explain it to you.

Simon · 04:12 AM

dialo is right. There are two types of whines. The inverter whine depends on the screen brightness setting. If your whine doesn't, it's the CPU whine. The CPU whine starts when the CPU drops into its lowest sleep state - that's why it can be avoided by running CPU intensive tasks or running Windows.

harrisjamieh · Jul 2, 2006, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by ghporter

Appologies-I was thinking of the MacBook, rather than the Pro. The MacBook's CPU is socketed.

Wrong again...

The MacBook & Pro's are soldered, whereas the iMac & the Mini processors are socketed.

harrisjamieh · Jul 2, 2006, 05:04 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

dialo is right. There are two types of whines. The inverter whine depends on the screen brightness setting. If your whine doesn't, it's the CPU whine. The CPU whine starts when the CPU drops into its lowest sleep state - that's why it can be avoided by running CPU intensive tasks or running Windows.

As far as I was aware, the screen inverter whine was limited to the MBPs only, and that the MacBook-sans pro only suffers from the CPU whine

Simon · Jul 2, 2006, 05:48 AM

Yeah, I think you're right. I don't recall having heard reports of the inverter whine on a MB sans pro.

ghporter · Jul 2, 2006, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by harrisjamieh

Wrong again...

The MacBook & Pro's are soldered, whereas the iMac & the Mini processors are socketed.

I could have sworn I saw a socket in those (millions of) pictures of "too much thermal paste on MacBooks." I'll blame it on the old PC I've been using-does that work?

Originally Posted by dialo

Are you not aware that there are two different whines that each occur on separate sides?

Nope. This is the first I've heard of it. I have neither a MacBook or MB Pro (for now, anyway), so I haven't heard either one.

I still want someone to explain how a tiny piece of gold plated CPU lead can cause a vibration that a person can hear. The "CPU whine" may be related to CPU usage, but I won't buy "it's a CPU lead" or the CPU itself until someone explains how this happens mechanically.

Simon · Jul 2, 2006, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by ghporter

I still want someone to explain how a tiny piece of gold plated CPU lead can cause a vibration that a person can hear. The "CPU whine" may be related to CPU usage, but I won't buy "it's a CPU lead" or the CPU itself until someone explains how this happens mechanically.

I concur. The CPU whine has to do with the processor entering a certain operation state. I'm pretty certain a vibrating lead isn't the cause. IIRC the sound is generated by trickle currents that couple to the speaker circuits. But it is true that there's a CPU related whine and an inverter related whine and both are independent of each other.

RevEvs · Jul 2, 2006, 11:45 AM

It's the Power Supply that causes the whine. It all depends on how much power is going through it. I've heard whines and similar sounds on PCs, Desktop Macs and Laptops...all related to the power supply fluxtuatng

KraziKid · Jul 2, 2006, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

I concur. The CPU whine has to do with the processor entering a certain operation state. I'm pretty certain a vibrating lead isn't the cause. IIRC the sound is generated by trickle currents that couple to the speaker circuits. But it is true that there's a CPU related whine and an inverter related whine and both are independent of each other.

This is from a conversation I had with my friend.

him: It's systemic to the model.
him: All units whine.
him: (some worse than others)
him: In fact, the MacBook does whine sometimes.
him: The tradeoff is battery time.
him: Because if you install the latest EFI boot image, you disable C1e.
him: Which is what causes the whine.
him: C1e lowers CPU core voltage when cpu hits HALT.
him: And since the idle loop hits HALT 100 times a second, you get a pulse that actually resonates on the solder.
him: :-)
him: At 100 Hz.
him: (with harmonics, because its a pulse wave)
me: and wouldnt this information be, uhm, eyes only if it were true?
him: No... it's readily available.
him: But they "admit" it if you talk to them.
him: Although it's not official.
him: So, yea... C1e is great for saving battery length.
him: But... yea.
him: It's completely specific to Apple's model.... the whine.
him: Lots of people say it's Intel's problem because the problem seems to come from the CU.
him: CPU*
him: But... it's not.

This is where I was getting my information, so if he is lying/wrong, then I dunno what to say.

bernt · Jul 2, 2006, 12:32 PM

There has been several reports about similar whine in other brands as well...

dahcar · Jul 2, 2006, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by z0ne81

The trick with the kext worked fine on 10.4.6, but I did it with 10.4.7 (you're meant to download the 2.4 version, not the 2.5) and my built in isight stopped working, so it's a no-go unless you really don't use it.

I tried the 10.4.7 kext which didn't work. Even though I have 10.4.7, I used the 10.4.6 kext file which worked for me. Sorry if no one else has the same results.

EdipisReks · Jul 2, 2006, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by KraziKid

This is from a conversation I had with my friend.

him: It's systemic to the model.
him: All units whine.
him: (some worse than others)
him: In fact, the MacBook does whine sometimes.
him: The tradeoff is battery time.
him: Because if you install the latest EFI boot image, you disable C1e.
him: Which is what causes the whine.
him: C1e lowers CPU core voltage when cpu hits HALT.
him: And since the idle loop hits HALT 100 times a second, you get a pulse that actually resonates on the solder.
him: :-)
him: At 100 Hz.
him: (with harmonics, because its a pulse wave)
me: and wouldnt this information be, uhm, eyes only if it were true?
him: No... it's readily available.
him: But they "admit" it if you talk to them.
him: Although it's not official.
him: So, yea... C1e is great for saving battery length.
him: But... yea.
him: It's completely specific to Apple's model.... the whine.
him: Lots of people say it's Intel's problem because the problem seems to come from the CU.
him: CPU*
him: But... it's not.

This is where I was getting my information, so if he is lying/wrong, then I dunno what to say.

i work in an University IT department, and we just ordered some Core Duo Dell Inspiron E1505s. all of them make a very similar whine.

ghporter · Jul 2, 2006, 10:14 PM

I see something of merit here, though I still don't think it's a lead. I think tt's the whole CPU that's vibrating, albeit in very small increments. Just like switching power supplies whine sometimes because their switching transistors cases vibrate because they actually switch on and off (HARD off, I might add) very quickly, or why a CRT's flyback transformer can make a sound due to the flyback pulse.

Thanks for getting a good explanation-this had me bothered.

Ronainsworth68 · Jul 6, 2006, 09:26 AM

My MBP must be broken, it doesnt seem to make noise.

Cross · Jul 6, 2006, 01:15 PM

The thread above me was the best post of the whole thread lol.

The more I read up on the MacBook Pro I think I am just going to buy a 15" Powerbook G4 Alum. from Apple Refurb for 1350 instead of a MacBook Pro. They have some bugs to work out and while I love all the upgrades I know this whine would make me nuts... Along with all the other little annoying problems that are showing up with the Intel Spec OS X Release....

I like what Apple has done and everyone with the MacBooks Seems to rave about the power but they seem to need some bugs worked out first. I am sure when X 10.5 comes out I wil wish I got a Intel Book though... lol oh well I guess I will just keep skimming through the threads and watching to see what happens.... maybe it will get fixed shortly and I will still grab a MacBook Pro.

Cadaver · Jul 6, 2006, 05:59 PM

Several reports floating around the internet now say Apple has a new revision of the MBP motherboard that solves the whine. MacFixIt (I think is were I saw it) even has images of letters owners have received who have had new motherboards installed. Apparently the new revisions require OS 10.4.6, and not the 10.4.5 that had been coming with the MBPs up until now. New 10.4.6 install DVDs are given to customers who get the new motherboards installed during a repair (otherwise they wouldn't be able to reinstall the OS).

Cross · Jul 6, 2006, 06:19 PM

So wait the new Intel MBP, etc are only able to use Mac OS 10.4.6 and nothing below? I considered 10.4 being the starting point but damn thats going to be annoying for anyone that does not get restore discs... although I am sure they could just go to an apple store and get a copy there.

goMac · Jul 6, 2006, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by Cross

So wait the new Intel MBP, etc are only able to use Mac OS 10.4.6 and nothing below? I considered 10.4 being the starting point but damn thats going to be annoying for anyone that does not get restore discs... although I am sure they could just go to an apple store and get a copy there.

As far as I'm aware, 10.4.4 has always been the lowest OS an Intel Mac can run. The only cd's that have Mac OS X for Intel are the restore CD's anyway. The retail boxes don't come with OS X for Intel.