[Dexists]

Hey guys.. first of all, great site!

I've had a little search around multiple boards, but i'm not entirely satisfied so I'd like to put some questions out there.

First, the background: I've finally had enough of vista and my vaio, and I'm looking for a fresh start with a nice MBP. I want the smallest size possible, so i'm currently looking at the 15" model with the 2.4 GHz.

Now, the questions:

1) Apple are looking for £480 to upgrade from 2GB ram to 4GB, which is the amount of ram that I want. However, if they think I am paying that much they are crazy. So I'm looking to buy 2x 2GB sticks. Apple list their ram at 667 Mhz speed. However, I know that there are 200 pin, 2GB DDR2 sticks on the way at speeds of 800 Mhz. I was wondering:
Will DDR2-800 sticks be compatible with the latest (june 07) macbook pro?

2) What is the general consensus of a Macbook Pro BODY or PROCESSOR upgrade when Leopard comes around? I'm getting the impression people aren't realistically expecting one but am I wrong? I know there are rumours of a smaller and/or thinner model, but there always are.

Thanks guys. I should also mention that I am going to be waiting till Leopard's release before I get a mac, as I can wait till October and I don't really want my first true mac experience to be a software upgrade procedure. I had enough pain with Vista.

Thanks everyone for their advice in advance! It's nice to see a sense of community after the cold experience that was Windows

D

As far as buying RAM for a MacBook Pro, I would NOT buy from Apple. OtherWorldComputing carries a great package which includes
2x 2 GB RAM modules all for $229.99! That saves you $500 from buying Apple RAM.

The DDR2-800 RAM sticks as far as I know are NOT compatible with the new MacBook Pros. I called AppleCare to confirm this by the way.

About the MacBook Pro getting an upgrade when Leopard comes out, I would have to say there is a chance that it will be updated with a new processor more likely than a body upgrade.


Thanks,
Mason

[Simon]

Get the stock amount of RAM form Apple. Then buy less expensive DIMMs from a third-party. Just make sure it's decent. Dirt cheap normally isn't.

800 MHz SO-DIMMs (PC6400) will work in the MBP. But it won't run faster because of that.

I wouldn't expect a MBP update when Leopard comes out. The only thing Apple could update to at that time will be Merom XE. But it's rather unlikely XE will ever find its way into the 1" thick MBP due to its high TDP. Additionally, in October the MBP will be just 4 months old. Recent MBP update cycles were ~8 months. IOW, now is a good time to buy a MBP.

[Dexists]

Thanks guys.. you've given me a really good picture. Just a few more questions then..

1) Did anyone upgrade from 10.3 to 10.4? Was it simple? Do you lose start again and lose files or settings etc? Or does it just build on top? Vista was an absolute nightmare. I cannot stress that enough. Absolute NIGHTMARE. I'd rather wait for a stable release of leopard than have a bad first experience.

2) Is Apple OEM memory top notch or are there higher grades?

Thanks again

D

[mduell]

1. DDR2-800 SO-DIMMs will work in the MBP, but they'll run at 667Mhz.

2. No upgrades to the MBP until early 2008 (Penryn quads).

[Yawn]

Ah, Duell postwhoring again better than ever!

Everything you wrote has already been said here. Do you actually care to read other people's posts? Even if you're trying to jack up your post count as fast as possible how about trying to be more subtle? Openly postwhoring like there's no tomorrow is pretty pathetic.

[mduell]

Huh? I was adding my support to Simon's comment correcting ncmason's misinformation and adding details about the next upgrade.

To answer the two new questions:
1. OS X (major version) upgrades are just like Windows (major version) upgrades; all your files and apps stay right where they are, although some will need minor updates to be compatible with the new OS.
2. No, it's the same stuff other name brands sell.

[SEkker]

In my experience, the Apple OS upgrades in X have been painless. Not true for Windows workstations.
Apple Ram is good in my experience. Not worth the premium, but top notch.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by Dexists 

2) What is the general consensus of a Macbook Pro BODY or PROCESSOR upgrade when Leopard comes around? I'm getting the impression people aren't realistically expecting one but am I wrong? I know there are rumours of a smaller and/or thinner model, but there always are.

I don't think we'll see a new body on the MBP for a while and the processor will not be upgraded when Leopard comes out.

[John123]

Originally Posted by Simon 

800 MHz SO-DIMMs (PC6400) will work in the MBP. But it won't run faster because of that.

Eh? Can you explain this? The machine is listed as having an 800Mhz FSB. Why wouldn't DDR2-800 (PC6400) RAM cause a speed increase in that case? My understanding is that it and others released in the past several months shipped with DDR2-667 because that was all that was available, but that DDR2-800 (when available) would result in a small but real speed boost. Comments?

[Simon]

Originally Posted by John123 

Eh? Can you explain this? The machine is listed as having an 800Mhz FSB. Why wouldn't DDR2-800 (PC6400) RAM cause a speed increase in that case?

Because the FSB is actually a name for the "processor interface bus" which connects the CPU to the Northbridge. And that indeed runs at 800 MHz on Crestline. However, the Northbridge communicates with memory through the memory interface bus which runs at only 667 MHz. It's part of Intel's design that the these two busses can run at different speeds. And in the Crestline chipset in your iMac or MBP they actually do. So no matter what speed memory you insert into your MBP or iMac, the Northbridge will always communicate at 667 MHz with it.

The whole confusion goes away once you understand that the FSB is not actually a single bus that connects CPU and RAM directly.

[John123]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Because the FSB is actually a name for the "processor interface bus" which connects the CPU to the Northbridge. And that indeed runs at 800 MHz on Crestline. However, the Northbridge communicates with memory through the memory interface bus which runs at only 667 MHz. It's part of Intel's design that the these two busses can run at different speeds. And in the Crestline chipset in your iMac or MBP they actually do. So no matter what speed memory you insert into your MBP or iMac, the Northbridge will always communicate at 667 MHz with it.

The whole confusion goes away once you understand that the FSB is not actually a single bus that connects CPU and RAM directly.

Gotcha. So for those in my position (looking seriously at 4GB), it's probably fair to say that while getting DDR2-800 won't help you, if you are a frequent upgrader (and will likely, say, get the next MBP whenever it comes out), you might as well spring the extra now given that future chipsets will likely up the ante and take advantage of faster RAM. Fair assessment?

[Simon]

Yeah, I agree. If the price difference isn't too big, I'd have no problems going for two 2 GB SO-DIMMs at 800 MHz now. Future-proofing is never a bad idea - especially if you're a frequent updater.

[mduell]

I doubt we'll ever see an Intel Mac that needs 800Mhz DDR2; desktop DDR3 chipsets are already out, and given Apple's love for low power, I'm sure we'll see it introduced over the next year.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by mduell 

I doubt we'll ever see an Intel Mac that needs 800Mhz DDR2; desktop DDR3 chipsets are already out, and given Apple's love for low power, I'm sure we'll see it introduced over the next year.

I'd guess so as well. OTOH it appears Intel isn't (yet) requiring DDR3 for Cantiga (although there is of course a preference due to the power savings). In addition Cantiga/Montevina aren't scheduled until Q208. It is entirely possible we'll see another Crestline iMac generation before it goes Cantiga. So from what we know now, it's not certain DDR3 will come to portable Macs and the iMac before 2009.

I think at the moment nobody can say for sure where we're going in terms of DDR2 vs. DDR3, but if you want to play it safe and 800 MHz DDR2 costs only marginally more than 667 MHz SO-DIMMs (if at all!) you're certainly not doing anything wrong if you go for the 800 MHz part.

[Rumor]

The sheer amount of code words that you two know scare me.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Simon 

I'd guess so as well. OTOH it appears Intel isn't (yet) requiring DDR3 for Cantiga (although there is of course a preference due to the power savings). In addition Cantiga/Montevina aren't scheduled until Q208. It is entirely possible we'll see another Crestline iMac generation before it goes Cantiga. So from what we know now, it's not certain DDR3 will come to portable Macs and the iMac before 2009.

Given the recent pace for updates, 2Q08 is about right for the next MBP and iMac update.
I'm sure we'll see a Crestline MacBook and Mac mini early next year, but I can't see Apple refreshing either the MBP or iMac before Cantiga is out.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by mduell 

I'm sure we'll see a Crestline MacBook and Mac mini early next year, but I can't see Apple refreshing either the MBP or iMac before Cantiga is out.

Actually I'm not so sure about that although I'm not trying to be overly pessimistic. I wouldn't be surprised if the Mac mini stayed Napa up to the Cantiga release on the iMac and MBP. At that point it could go Crestline. For some reason Apple seems reluctant to use Crestline on the integrated graphics Macs. It has been mentioned that it could be a driver issue with the X3100 which on the Windows side has given quite some driver headache from what I've heard. But in any event I would also expect to see the MB updated before Q208. The last update was so humble, I can't imagine they'd keep it unchanged at the current revision throughout Q208.

[mduell]

Even GMA X3100 with immature drivers should be better than GMA950. And from the chipset prices I've seen, it should save Apple a few bucks.

[awcopus]

I've been singing the Mac Pro waiting blues for a while, but have to comment on my new 2.2GHz Macbook Pro. $2000 was the sweet spot for me. That's about how much I spent on my iBook 600Mhz G3 (640MB RAM) back in 2001.

This machine is so extraordinarily quick, so solidly built, so gorgeous, so silent... I am thrilled, thoroughly thrilled with the purchase.

One delightful moment: I was walking with it from my brightly illuminated living room down a relatively dark hallway to my office and the keyboard started to glow. I realize many of you have had this experience before. I hadn't, and it was pretty sweet. I actually sat down in the hallway just to experience typing on an illuminated keyboard and it was, indeed, insanely great.

My only complaints?

1. So far I'm just getting used to how enormous it is given what I've upgraded from. It feels a bit less laptop friendly compared to my little iBook.

2. Amazingly, the Airport reception on the ol' iBook was stronger than the MBP until I installed the latest Apple Airport Extreme update, and now all of the bars are strong on the MBP and its wireless internet performance is zippy. Phew!

3. No iLife '08 preinstalled. That's lame. I'm going to check with Apple about this.

I'd say now is definitely a fine time to buy a MBP. Jump in with both feet. The water is warm AND delicious.

[PaperNotes]

There's a major redesign to the MBP coming early next year with the new ports that can collapse and be hidden away, new keyboard, Penryn processors and new cooling system.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

There's a major redesign to the MBP coming early next year with the new ports that can collapse and be hidden away, new keyboard, Penryn processors and new cooling system.

Where did you get that from? There's been a patent application from Apple for foldable ports, that's it. Do you have an idea how many things they have patented that never materialized in a product?

There is absolutely no hard information on a new MBP revision with those ports and/or a new KB or 'cooling system'. The only thing we know for sure is that Intel plans to release the mobile version of Penryn in Q108.

You should chose your wording a little more carefully. Making rumors or your personal guesses sound like known facts isn't very useful.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by Simon 

You should chose your wording a little more carefully.

Wanna bet a virtual fiver on all three features appearing in first half 2008?

[Simon]

There is a big difference between "I bet this will happen..." and "there's a major redesign to the MBP...".

[feethea]

Dexists,

From your intial post I guess that you're in the UK. If so, go to either the Crucial or Corsair sites and using their configurator look at their prices for the 2x2Gb kits for the MBP - way, way below the Apple price. Installation is a breeze - how to do it is even in the MBP manual. Just pumped up my 15.4" 2.4Ghz BP to the 4 Gb maz and it now flies. Go for it.

If you live in the NW UK and use the Corsair site to get the modules you need, you can go over to Scan International (just off junction 6 of the M61) and pick them up saving carriage costs.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

There's a major redesign to the MBP coming early next year with the new ports that can collapse and be hidden away, new keyboard, Penryn processors and new cooling system.

So you're considering fact that there is major redesign of the MacBook Pro based on rumors of things which was based on apple's patent filings. That's a stretch, apple has file a ton of patent filings over the past years many of which have never made it into a product. Also rumor sites tend to be wrong more then they're right.

also how do you know some of the changes (collapsible ports) are not intended for the MacBook. To much is unknown with Apple's plans to state so boldly and plainly that apple is going to do a major redesign.

[PaperNotes]

The new ports are intended for the whole portable line. The new keyboard and cooling "configuration" will happen for the MBP. Penryn is more obvious. All the above will happen in the first half of 2008 When it does I'll bump this thread

[MacosNerd]

Yeah penryn is obvious, a major redesign is a leap however.

That doesn't mean it won't happen, but conversely it also means it might not. All I'm saying is that there's nothing carved in stone stating that the MBP is going to have a major redesign.

you could equally argue that Apple will introduce a new slimline model that complements the MBP and not replace.

And to be honest, I could care less if you bump the thread that time to show you were right. Its really not a big deal to me.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

All I'm saying is that there's nothing carved in stone stating that the MBP is going to have a major redesign.

Superficially it will still look the same. At a distance all you will notice is the new keyboard which will be the same as the wireless keyboard except it will have the standard numlock + numercial keypad. That's not so much a major redesign. The internals and ports which are mostly hard to notice are the target for the overhaul. Apple introduced the magsafe connector to prevent laptops falling. Now the new cooling system and Penryn to end heat complaints and the new ports to prevent spillages ruining the laptop. OLED across the range is another target. Everything to decrease complaints, repairs and environmental complaints. They want to be the number one laptop supplier and have more switchers so this is all top priority not wasteful patents.

[PaperNotes]

Correction. The next MBP will have a matte black shell on the back of the LCD

[John123]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Yeah, I agree. If the price difference isn't too big, I'd have no problems going for two 2 GB SO-DIMMs at 800 MHz now. Future-proofing is never a bad idea - especially if you're a frequent updater.

OK -- so since you stay on top of this stuff, let me ask you what you'd do.

You can get the 667Mhz 2GB sticks for $98 a piece. A 4GB set of the 800Mhz stuff is going to run $280ish. Given the DDR3 speculation -- would you stick with the 667s now, given the price difference?

[Simon]

So we're talking 280ish vs. 196. If you're totally loaded and money isn't an issue at all, you might as well go for the 800 MHz DIMMs. Otherwise I'd just forget about it and go for the DDR2. IMHO that price difference is too much.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

The sheer amount of code words that you two know scare me.

Look what I discovered today.

[Rumor]

It's odd that many of their code names are from the area I live in both California and Washington.

Oh, cheater!

[mduell]

Rumor: Given where the company is based, it's really not that unusual. Intel Israel also uses local places.

Simon: Do you know the FSB and RAM speeds for SR refresh?

[Simon]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Simon: Do you know the FSB and RAM speeds for SR refresh?

FSB will be 800 MT/s all the way up to Montevina when we'll switch to 1067 MT/s together with the new Penryn (up to 3.06 GHz).

But the RAM's still not clear. As I already mentioned there's a preference to use DDR3 in Montevina/Cantiga due to power considerations, but somehow Intel is still undecided on this one. I'd really like to see some analysis regarding CPU i/o wait due to asymmetric processor interface bus and memory bus speeds. 800 MT/s vs. 667 MT/s wasn't a big issue. 1067 MT/s vs. 667 MT/s could be one though.

[John123]

Originally Posted by Simon 

FSB will be 800 MT/s all the way up to Montevina when we'll switch to 1067 MT/s together with the new Penryn (up to 3.06 GHz).

But the RAM's still not clear. As I already mentioned there's a preference to use DDR3 in Montevina/Cantiga due to power considerations, but somehow Intel is still undecided on this one. I'd really like to see some analysis regarding CPU i/o wait due to asymmetric processor interface bus and memory bus speeds. 800 MT/s vs. 667 MT/s wasn't a big issue. 1067 MT/s vs. 667 MT/s could be one though.

Resurrecting a rather old thread to ask a current question. For the new Penryn MBPs, will using 800Mhz RAM make a difference, or are we still bottlenecked?

[mduell]

Same chipset (Crestline) so same memory speed support.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by John123 

Resurrecting a rather old thread to ask a current question. For the new Penryn MBPs, will using 800Mhz RAM make a difference, or are we still bottlenecked?

It is the same chipset. So yes, it's the same behavior. You can use 800 MHz RAM, but it won't perform any better. The memory interface bus on Crestline runs at 667 MT/s plain and simple.

[John123]

Thanks! You guys are, as always, useful.

Now to decide whether to bother upgrading. A very marginal upgrade, especially given the hassle of doing the hard drive replacement myself, which wasn't hard but also wasn't easy with my SR MBP.....

[Simon]

I think for most users it doesn't make any of sense to upgrade from the Merom MBP to a Penryn MBP. Especially if you're on a 2.2 GHz Merom. You'd have to go for the $2499 model to call it a real upgrade. Even if you can sell your previous 2.2 GHz at an excellent price, you're looking at a $1k upgrade. That's a lot of money for a small improvement.

[John123]

Originally Posted by Simon 

I think for most users it doesn't make any of sense to upgrade from the Merom MBP to a Penryn MBP. Especially if you're on a 2.2 GHz Merom. You'd have to go for the $2499 model to call it a real upgrade. Even if you can sell your previous 2.2 GHz at an excellent price, you're looking at a $1k upgrade. That's a lot of money for a small improvement.

Eh, yes and no. It all depends on how smart you are at the upgrade game, and how much time you're willing to waste. A lot of people don't know that you don't have to pay full retail + tax at the Apple Store to get a brand new MBP, so they're willing to pay top-dollar for a "nearly new" older model. I've owned every single MBP that Apple has introduced, with an upgrade price that's always been <$200 after selling my old one. (Shockingly, I even *made* money one time to upgrade -- go figure.) I'm confident I could do the same thing here again, too -- the question is whether it's worth the time to me to get something that runs a tad cooler and has better battery life, and of course starts my warranty clock ticking again from day 1. I'm less sure with this set of new models than with any previous MBP introduction.

[Simon]

Well, yes, obviously if you manage to sell your 2.2 GHz for $2299 the upgrade will be cheap, but seeing that anybody can get a refurbished 2.2 GHz Merom with full warranty straight from Apple for $1449 he'd be a grade A idiot to buy your old 2.2 GHz for such a price.

[John123]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Well, yes, obviously if you manage to sell your 2.2 GHz for $2299 the upgrade will be cheap, but seeing that anybody can get a refurbished 2.2 GHz Merom with full warranty straight from Apple for $1449 he'd be a grade A idiot to buy your old 2.2 GHz for such a price.

I'm extraordinarily good at finding said people. Extraordinarily.