[strobe]

What single characteristic defines the mac, and still doesn't exist with OS X? A unified user interface!

While Cocoa is an excellent API, it's implementation doesn't resemble the mac. My number one fear with OS X is it will have no fewer than three UIs. There are a half dozen differences in the manner Cocoa text handling behaves alone. For example if you select a line of text to the end of that line (so the selection extends to the edge of the page) it selects the carriage return when it shouldn't. I could make the argument that this is assbackwards because 99/100 you don't want the carriage return and could add it after pasting when you do, but the primary reason this is awful is because it doesn't follow the mac UI.

Cocoa can be fixed, but Swing doesn't seem to define enough elements to make a mac-like Swing implementation! If 1/20 apps I use has a different UI, what's the point in making a graphical interface? Mac users and programmers know there is more to a UI than making it look pretty or look similar, it has to all work the same. Unfortunately all the blame can be clearly placed on Apple because they haven't revised the user guidelines since system 6.

Where are the guidelines on text selection? Most word processors allow one to select text using shift (and other cursor modifiers) yet there is no guideline. Word selects text like a windows app (there is no guideline on how selection behavior ought to work to avoid problems selecting small characters) and no text control acts the same, causing problems especially when they are drag+drop text aware (a technology I LOVE, but the UI guidelines should have been edited when Apple decided to adopt the feature).

The final damnation is 99% of mac apps use command to select a single item while using shift to select a group. Meanwhile Apple's Finder is stuck in the stone age, being the one odd duckling.

It's time for Apple to revise their UI guidelines to make them more comprehensive. Lately the only think they have published is on looks alone ('emotive' ICONs? give me a break!).

[mr100percent]

Either way, it's a heck of a lot better than Linux's GUI wars.

What do you mean disunified? Carbon and java apps have the Aqua interface, while Classic apps have the traditional interface.

99% of mac apps using the same guideline is good and consistent.

The NEW finder is good! have you seen/tried it yet?

Originally posted by mr100percent:
Either way, it's a heck of a lot better than Linux's GUI wars.

What do you mean disunified? Carbon and java apps have the Aqua interface, while Classic apps have the traditional interface.

99% of mac apps using the same guideline is good and consistent.

The NEW finder is good! have you seen/tried it yet?

strobe is talking about behavioral aspects (especially text handling). The Aqua look is used across the various API's, but the applications behave differently. Yes, it's better than Linux GUI wars, but in DP4 it's not nearly as consistent as people expect a Macintosh to be. We'll see how much of it gets ironed out in the PB, and in the final next year.

Having only 1% of the apps violate standard GUI behavior (e.g. shift-clicking vs. control-clicking) isn't bad -- unless one of those apps in the 1% happens to be the Finder, the one application that everyone has to use. While the new Finder (in DP4) makes some advancements, it still has the Shift-to-select-a-single-item behavior, IIRC. While it certainly is far from finished, the Finder has been this way for a long time and it looks like Mac OS X is continuing the trend.

Re-read the post, particularly the line that says "Mac users and programmers know there is more to a UI than making it look pretty or look similar" -- right now Cocoa, Carbon, and the forthcoming Aqua Swing implementation only look similar, and that's the problem.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by anonymous:
strobe is talking about behavioral aspects (especially text handling).

This is already a problem in OS 9, unfortunately, and has been basically since Microsoft started putting out Mac programs. I still can't handle how IE 5 interprets the arrow keys in its "non-standard" way when text is selected in this very text-entry field I'm typing in now. Grrr!

I very much hope that Apple at least gets their own software straight with OS X.

-chris.

If there's any consolation (you're right about different behaviors) it's that we're getting a beta soon, with at least four more months to final. A lot of finishing touches are needed, this among them, but have confidence!

[AAPl Shareholder]

The GUI wil be the same for all APIs... however classic will lack transparency.

[strobe]

Originally posted by anonymous:
strobe is talking about behavioral aspects (especially text handling). The Aqua look is used across the various API's, but the applications behave differently. Yes, it's better than Linux GUI wars, but in DP4 it's not nearly as consistent as people expect a Macintosh to be. We'll see how much of it gets ironed out in the PB, and in the final next year.

Thanks for clearing the waters after the previous stupid post.

This problem has been evident ever since Apple bought NeXT. OS X Server, Rhapsody DR1, DR2, OS X DP3, DP4, this has been YEARS.

The basic reason is the Cocoa and Carbon developers have basically been working seperately. They don't even use the same theme data, Cocoa apps ignore the Carbon theme manager's layout meaning if you try to change the title bar button locations in one they are different in the other.

This is understandable since Apple wants to get OS X out the door ASAP. The only thing I ask is Apple concede the problem.

Having only 1% of the apps violate standard GUI behavior (e.g. shift-clicking vs. control-clicking) isn't bad -- unless one of those apps in the 1% happens to be the Finder, the one application that everyone has to use. While the new Finder (in DP4) makes some advancements, it still has the Shift-to-select-a-single-item behavior, IIRC. While it certainly is far from finished, the Finder has been this way for a long time and it looks like Mac OS X is continuing the trend.

Actually Apple's new Finder follows the convention now. However my gripe about their UI guidelines still stands! It's not enough to follow implicit guidelines.

Re-read the post, particularly the line that says "Mac users and programmers know there is more to a UI than making it look pretty or look similar" -- right now Cocoa, Carbon, and the forthcoming Aqua Swing implementation only look similar, and that's the problem.

Exactly my point |-)

[strobe]

Originally posted by AAPl Shareholder:
The GUI wil be the same for all APIs... however classic will lack transparency.

Says who?

You obviously haven't a clue. The only thing which is consistent (well not really) is the G, not the UI.

[bmedina]

I think we're all getting a little ahead of ourselves. If in six months at the final version 1.0 release these problems have not been addressed, then I would start to worry. But think of how far Apple has come since DP3 in getting some of the UI problems rectified. They still have a significant amount of time to polish the rough edges.

[strobe]

Dude, I would be worried NOW. Apple has to verbally address the problem BEFORE version 1.0 is out!

Also I don't see any chance of this if mac users bitch about trivialities like the dock instead of bitching about the above issue.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by strobe:
Dude, I would be worried NOW. Apple has to verbally address the problem BEFORE version 1.0 is out!

Also I don't see any chance of this if mac users bitch about trivialities like the dock instead of bitching about the above issue.

Yeah, but there's no point in bitching before you've seen what they've fixed in the public beta, eh?

Easy,

-chris.