[Mac007]

Well I looked at the new interface and from what I can see it looks like Windows 98 with a new paint job.

I'll stick with MacOS X just the same.

[steve666]

After playing around with OSX for a few hours or so at CompUSA I have decided to wait until WindowsXP to come out before buyng a new computer. I was definitely going to buy a Mac but after seeing OSX I think Apple has actually gone backwards in terms of user interface. Some things I can get used to but the dock is an annoyance. Give us a way to make it an option and let us go back to the old finder in the upper right corner of the screen. The menu bars at the top are even stranger. Did they really need to be changed from OS9? Is it a better setup? The directory structure is as big a mess as Windows ME.

Before the bashing begins there are serious interface issues that the experts have criticized about OSX. Apple hasn't done anything to improve them. In my opinion OSX is a step backward from OS9 (not talking about stability and protected memory here) and Windows XP may be more of a challenge in terms of interface than Apple has ever had. I can't even believe I'm saying that because with OS9, Microsoft didn't stand a chance............................................ ..................................

[BuonRotto]

The menu bars at the top are even stranger. Did they really need to be changed from OS9? Is it a better setup?

Eh? You mean the menubar (singular)? If that's what you mean, then the answer is an emphatic YES. Frankly, I'm surprised you find it strange at all. It's far more logical and convenient IMNHO. It works like this: System (the new Apple Menu), App, File ...(whatever falls between) ...Window, Help. I have some issues with it -- like why Services are where they are and why if the Apple menu is a System-wide mwnu is it not on the right with the other (new) system menus, but in all it's far more intelligently laid out.

The issues with the file system are minor -- people either get tripped up at the fact that each user has a desktop, or that there is a System and Library folder. It could use some cleaning up, but it's not at all as confusing as the clutter of a Windows box. Come to think of it, why does the desktop itself have to be at the top of all hierarchies? Just thinking out loud, don't kill me.

I think in the end none of these features are the new revolution -- not for OS X, not for WinXP, not for Linux or any other players out there. The fundamental metaphor is still the same, albeit fragmenting and losing conceptual consistency in the case of XP certainly. I feel OS X is, if anything, try to maintain this fundamental idea of a familiar workspace or desktop. The desktop itself is less centralized in OS X (it encourages people to file things in cubbies like the Dock, toolbars/shelves and in folders more), but the idea persists. It would seem the intention of making Rhapsody run legacy apps and have a version number to follow Mac OS 9 is to make it the inheritor of the desktop heritage. While I want to see the next great user experience and feel Apple could have done more towards this (unlike many of their other customers if you recall), Apple is clearly carrying the torch of this metaphor without any second thoughts. Sheets, drawers, even the menubar and Dock (albeit less literally), adhere to the metaphor more than XP's wizard windows and primarily button-driven UI.

Blackcomb, as another thread pointed out, has moved even farther from this metaphor, but it looks like it does it primarily through this button/taskbar and wizard user experience. It's clearly designed around very particular tasks, like a shopping list, whereas the desktop metaphor is supposedly more about making your own agendas and handling things like shopping lists withiin that conceptual environment. Just an observation.

Then again, I haven't seen a new, viable, better or alternative concept for the computer user experience. If there's a better mousetrap out there, I'd love to see it. How did the Amiga workbench behave? Pretty much like a desktop idea? There's something kind of appealing to a toolshed/workshop concept, though it's not unrelated to the desktop idea. There's also Raskin's "airport" model which I'm not a big fan of personally. And we know what happened to "Bob" and his digs.

[steve666]

>Eh? You mean the menubar (singular)? If that's what you mean, then the answer is an emphatic YES. Frankly, I'm surprised you find it strange at all. It's far more logical and convenient IMNHO. It works like this: System (the new Apple Menu), App, File ...(whatever falls between) ...Window, Help. I have some issues with it -- like why Services are where they are and why if the Apple menu is a System-wide mwnu is it not on the right with the other (new) system menus, but in all it's far more intelligently laid out.<

Well, in OS9 the most important and most frequently accessed functions like favorites, preferences, and individual apps that can be placed there are in the left most menu-the apple menu. I believe this makes much more sense than the scrambled items dispersed the way they are in OSX. The old way seemed to be better grouped........................................... ..............................

[BuonRotto]

Your description of the old Apple menu sounds like people's critical opinions of the Dock -- so many disparate things in one place. The new organization is clear and hierarchical, most general to most specific, going left to right.

The Dock easily handles your most frequently accessed functions like the ones you've described. Also, they're accessible in the Finder if you wish.

[jimmac]

Like I've said before it's about change.

latency of os x is good and in another discussion i read it was even better than be os... exact info you'll find in

latency test (pdf)

but there's no be os on the list so can't say for sure.

ciao kaos

[OverclockedHomoSapien]

What's the deal with Steve Balmer? Is that guy hopped up on cocain or something? What a tool! I'm glad Steve Jobs doesn't go around making an ass of himself like that.

[Clive]

Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<STRONG>The Dock easily handles your most frequently accessed functions like the ones you've described. Also, they're accessible in the Finder if you wish.</STRONG>

You wished it did!

I've got over 200 items nested in my Apple Menu, about 20 of them are aliases of folders that contribute to the hierarchy, and another 20 or so are frequently accessed server drives.

How does that fit into the Dock!?

Additionally, with 700MB+ of RAM I find myself running anywhere between 10 and 20 apps simultaneously - stick in the 20 odd aliases I keep in a folder in the Apple menu for most "useful" apps, plus the 30 "recent" apps and I get 40-50 app icons lined up at the bottom of my screen - very useful!

Also, look at what Steve666 is writing - because of this mess I'm considering buying a PC! This nonsense people keep spouting here about X being easy, and PC users moving across is just bollocks. Some PC users will get into it, because of the Unix underpinnings, but others will just be put off by its confused UI.

Here's something I thought I'd never say: I've been using WinME via VPC quite a lot recently, and I genuinely think it's got a better UI than X.

Oh, for those who doubt I use that many apps, here's the contents of my recent apps folder:

Acrobat 5.0
Acrobat� Reader 4.0
Adobe ImageReady� 3.0.1
Adobe� Photoshop� 6.0.1
AppleCD Audio Player
BBEdit 4.5
Claris Emailer
DropStuff�
FileMaker Pro
FileMaker Pro 5.0.x
Help Viewer
Internet Explorer 5.0
Mac TCP Watcher
Microsoft PowerPoint 98 Viewer
Microsoft Word
MYOB Accounting Plus 2.5.0
Netscape Communicator�
QuarkXPress�
QuickHelp�
QuickTime Player
RealPlayer
ResEdit
Script Editor
Sherlock
SimpleText
Timbuktu Pro
Type Resolve 2.0.1
Virtual PC� 4.0.2

[Sine]

Originally posted by OverclockedHomoSapien:
<STRONG>What's the deal with Steve Balmer? Is that guy hopped up on cocain or something? What a tool! I'm glad Steve Jobs doesn't go around making an ass of himself like that.</STRONG>

No Steve just throws things at people

[BuonRotto]

Clive,

This is one simple way to nest your folders in the Dock.

There are alternatives to this method, but what I think you don't understand is that SO many people were lost with the app switcher and Apple menu. I mean, every single new user I introduced to the Macintosh. I kid you not. No one got it until I both pointed it out, and explained the rationale behind these things. Face it, it's true. The Dock is as plain and simple as a light switch for them. You know how and where to find mechanisms that work with your MO. I do serious work too, but I have at most eight or ten apps opn, on a really busy day. Your needs are exceptional.

But anyway, you do what you like. You can make idle threats, switch platforms, make "religious" arguments all you like. Frankly, I have no patience for these words. You do what's best for Clive.

[edit: just linked the image instead]

[ 08-19-2001: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]

[ 08-19-2001: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]

[SpeedRacer]

Just a couple things that i think have been missed here...

Remote Control
Apple has been shipping a full screen control, text/voice-chat administration app on their OS for years now. It's called Network Assistant and the client version of it has been shipping as an optional install on versions of the MacOS as far back as MacOS 8, the admin version of the software on Apple server software such as ASIP or (previously) Apple Network Administrators Toolkit. Being that X Server was recently released rumors have it that Network Assistant X is soon to b released as well.

Apple Advantages
Everyone's saying that since Apple's OS is not matching in subjective functionalities/organization that it follows that Apple has no reason to exist. Now while as much as i agree that 10.0.X has a way to go in terms of speed, features, and application base, i also think it paves the road for the approach that Apple has been pursuing for quite some time now:
[list=a][*]Create high technology hardware products that anybody can use[*]Create added value in your hardware by bundling it with the most innovative and easy to use OS and preloaded applications
[*]Combine 1 + 2 to create task-based technology devices that utilize single-window user interfaces to accomplish each of the major tasks today's consumer wants to do with their computers (iMovie for DV editing, iTunes for audio storage/playback, Mail for electronic mail, iDVD for digital video output/export). [/list=a]

So what is so unique about Apple even now? As the saying goes, they create the "whole widget" and can therefore create products with ability to transcend the traditional appearance and operation of the other 99. Evolving from 80lb beige display+computer+cables with 100,000 impossible-to-understand and non-standard interfaces to high-fashion, trendy, all-in-one internet access station+audio jukebox+DV studio+CD/DVD mastering suite+electronic messaging mailbox utilizing uniformly easy-to-understand, single-window-based interfaces to perform specific functions never before achievable by mere "mortals" utilizing consumer-grade technology products.

Now c'mon Apple, where's my check?

Speed

[steve666]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
[QB]Clive,

This is one simple way to nest your folders in the Dock.

There are alternatives to this method, but what I think you don't understand is that SO many people were lost with the app switcher and Apple menu. I mean, every single new user I introduced to the Macintosh. I kid you not. No one got it until I both pointed it out, and explained the rationale behind these things. Face it, it's true. The Dock is as plain and simple as a light switch for them. You know how and where to find mechanisms that work with your MO. &lt;

I actually agree with you here. For people moving over from windows, the dock will be easier for them to understand, mainly because its similar to windows taskbar. Its easy to see whats still running. However, once people get used to the finder on top I believe people will prefer not having the dock. I actually moved to the Mac from windows and I much prefer the MacOS9 interface to windows. It seems as if OSX is moving towards Windows-a BIG mistake in my mind. It is simply not natural to have menus popping upwards, down makes sense.

Now, my idea is for the dock to be optional. Put the finder back in the upper right hand corner and allow us to turn off the dock if we wish. Let us add items to the GO menu (where we used to be able to add things to the Apple Menu) and put the trash can back on the desktop(it can be docked also).

There you have it. The dock will be active at startup for people who would be confused by the old finder, but those who hate the dock will be allowed to do away with it forever if they so choose. The only other thing Apple would need to do is bring back Windowshade.

Everyone is telling me that change is good. Well, so is choice............................................ .............................

[KidRed]

You don't have to use the dock if you don't like it, simply hide it. As for the finder at the top right, go get X-Assist and I think most of yuor X-whines will be solved.

There are quite a few shareware apps & utilities that make X more 9-like for those who don't find the transition an easy one. But I think jumping ship is just plain silly,especially concidering the M$ sharks in the water

[BuonRotto]

Just to get the lingo straight, what you're calling the Finder, I call the App Switcher, and I consider the Finder a different app (at least in OS X, and in OS 9 too really). anyway, just so we don't start arguing about what we're talking about not how.

Anyway, I'm not a big fan of the App Switcher for the reasons I stated, plus to me it seems redundant with the new Application menu that shows the current app's name on the left (and you already know I like that element). ah, well.

Also, I understand what you want from the Go menu, but is this something you only want access to from the Finder? I'm implying that maybe a universal-access Favorites menu is appropriate under the Recent Places item in the new Apple menu. That's a good idea to me! right now, you can put whatever you want in your Favorites Folder and access that stuff in the Go menu, but perhaps this isn't accessible enough (plus it means you have to go through sub-menus to get to your frequently-accessed stuff in the Favs folder).

As far as pop-up menus, it's not so unnatural since menus like these don't exist in the physical world. Seriously, what is weird about them is that the topmost choice -- often the most frequently used choice -- is the farthest from your mouse when you pop the thing up. That's definitely a bad thing, and it's why I have my Dock on the right side. I love those pop-ups otherwise. I hope they get more functional (but not too fussy with menu choices).

My attitude towards the Dock is that it's like my "junk drawer" or "slop space" at home. I even wish it had a handle (yes I'm serious about that too) so I could hide it and pull it out more willfully. It's so terribly convenient for that stuff. I think while you're talking about organization, I'm talking about slop space. Another way of thinking about it is like a new apartment's walk-in closet. It's empty, leaving you maximum flexibility to do what you want with it. Some make it a clothes closet, some make it a small work space. I only wish Apple added more features to make it as flexible as possible -- more divisions/separators or spaces, move anything around, etc. My feedback about the Dock was for more menu options for its icons (essentially making any icon a kind of Dockling too) and creating some kind of customization like how you can customize Finder and Mail toolbars.

I don't have an inherent problem with letting users get rid of the Dock, but I don't think it's Apple's desire or necessarily their job to do that. It's like theming. I understand why Apple wants a consistent look for the UI, but I can sympathize with users' desires for alternatives. It's more of a business and selling point than any kind of dogmatic "rule" for using your system. It's also about spending a lot of time and energy trying to see what will be anew feature.

None of this is really set in stone even now. I expect the Dock in OS 11 to be a different animal than OS X's considering the flak over it.

[OverclockedHomoSapien]

I've got over 200 items nested in my Apple Menu, about 20 of them are aliases of folders that contribute to the hierarchy, and another 20 or so are frequently accessed server drives.

How does that fit into the Dock!?

Dude, all you need to do is put a folder into the dock full of your aliases and so forth. Right click it or click and hold, and it works exactly like an Apple menu. You can have as many of these as you like.

I use the Apple menu all the time is OS 9, and I did miss it at first in OS X. But after aclimating to OS X, I didn't even miss the apple menu. Fact is, the dock is a deceptively powerful tool. Now that we can orientate it vertically, it doesn't even take up much screen space (since vertical space is at a premium). I keep my dock very small, so it doesn't take up much space. And I've arranged it with a few "apple menus", so that it isn't cluttered. I can access just as much as with the apple menu, and the dock ALSO serves as an app switcher and a control strip. I think it's a step in the right direction.

The one thing I think Apple really needs to do is make a two button mouse standard. Many of the mouse/key combos that add extra functionality to the dock are not readily apparent to new users, and Apple doesn't give any documentation about them. What Apple should do is include a key combo card with OS X, so newbies know about all the hidden functionality. And a two button mouse would make contextual menus in the dock, and apple menus, much easier to access.

It's time for Apple to admit that the single button mouse isn't functional enough for a modern operating system. Two buttons are just as easy to use, actually easier IMO than remembering key combos and fidgeting with holding a key down while pressing the mouse. Apple's way is more complicated, and many new users NEVER figure out the key combos.

While Apple is at it, they can add a scroll wheel to their two button mouse.

Oh yeah, about Windows XP, the title of this thread....The problem with Windows is that it's too bloated. Designed by committee, with every feature imaginable....while Micro$oft spends all their time adding new features, they wind up makeing the OS BIGGER. Instead, there is Apple, who focuses on makeing the OS Better. OS X showcases this, it is not feature bloated (quite the opposite), but Apple focused on making it better, more elegant, more streamlined, more minimalist. And we can be sure that Apple will only add features that make it better...not features to check off from some list that a committee of overpaid executives dreamed up over catered lunches in between screwing their secretaries.

[michaelb]

Originally posted by OverclockedHomoSapien:
<STRONG>It's time for Apple to admit that the single button mouse isn't functional enough for a modern operating system. Two buttons are just as easy to use, actually easier IMO than remembering key combos and fidgeting with holding a key down while pressing the mouse. Apple's way is more complicated, and many new users NEVER figure out the key combos. </STRONG>

I'm glad you had IMO in there, as that is an opinion and many people, myself included, have a differing one, and a few experiences to back it up, one of which is:

Last year I lent my dad my PC so he could submit his tax electronically (no Mac compatibility in the Australian Tax Office at that time).

Watching his first exposure to the 2 button mouse was funnier than a Marx Bros movie!

It shows how sink-or-swim Windows actually is: so much of Windows is designed to need the mouse - eg, empty recycle bin, making a new folder - whereas the Mac is more layered - if you're a pro and you know it's there, okay, if not, you never need the 2nd button or those key combos you mention.

A well-designed OS should not rely on having a 2nd button in order to use it.

Originally posted by OverclockedHomoSapien:
<STRONG>While Apple is at it, they can add a scroll wheel to their two button mouse.</STRONG>

And a free physiotherapy coupon to deal with the resulting wrist strain many people like me get from them.

Each to their own. I think Apple has a great mouse (it can withstand the weight of an elephant!) and a great OS to only NEED one button.

There is 2, 3, multi-button and scrollwheel support in OS X if you want it. You just need a third party mouse to access that support.

[tomfrit]

i'm glad someone mentioned the mouse here - it might be a sign of a good os to work fine with only one mouse button but i don't think it's a sign of a good *computer* to degarde it's users right hand to a (kinda) fist that can only rub the table and press it. being able to use even just one alternate button without the left (or visavi rsp) hand speeds up the computer works a lot imo and shouldn't be too hard to communicate to "newbies" (imagine having that little tap by the thumb on the apple optical mouse as a button - "they" wouldn't even find it at first...). a wheel would be awesome too, of course. but maybe the one button mouse is too much of a tradition for apple to change - but i think they should leave the tradition to ms and progress instead...

[suthercd]

Working with a beta XP tester- who has extensive Windows developer background, the response to XP is that Win2000 is by far the best version released to date. He cconsults in the Windows realm and said that XP as is is defintely not ready for prime time and has created some very disturbing environment/security issues.