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Mr. Average needs a new car
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mattyb
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Jan 4, 2012, 09:04 AM
 
Yes, I'm Mr. Average (house, 2 cars, 2 kids, ave income - you know the score). For the purposes of brevity I will use the word Estate when talking about a Station Wagon, Break, Combi type car.

I have a Renault Megane Estate, 2.0L (petrol) which is fine except the noise at legal motorway speeds here in France (130km/hr, ~80mph) and the town fuel consumption. The space is great, I don't want any smaller in terms of boot (trunk) size. I've done 80,000km.

I am looking at a few cars, all diesels : Ford Mondeo Estate - probably the 140 HP range, VW Passat Estate same range, Toyota Avensis - 150 HP and the Skoda Superb.

The Toyota is looking the best so far (I have no qualms about image, I'm a nearly 40 year old father of 2 after all) followed by the Passat. From what I've read, the Toyota is the quietest car for the price range, even quieter at 130km/hr than Mercs and BMWs. I like the Honda Accord Estate, but the pirce is several thousands of Euros more for less space in the boot. I'll probably have to get a new car since I won't be able to get a good price for my petrol 2.0L otherwise (petrol cars are not very popular in France).

What say those who don't drive 911s, Ferraris or M3s but are stuck in the 'average' car user bracket?
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 4, 2012, 09:59 AM
 
This should be a riot on a still American centric board.
     
nonhuman
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Jan 4, 2012, 10:16 AM
 
I don't know what the European field of cars looks like, but I'm extremely happy with my 2011 Hyandai Sonata Limited. Hyundai's been doing some really great things lately, and their cars are absolutely worth look.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Jan 4, 2012, 10:53 AM
 
Speaking of which I was in a new decked-out Hyundai Genesis a couple weeks ago...pretty impressive for 50 grand, let me tell you. Definitely could have been a Lexus, Infiniti or even a Merc from a look & feel perspective. The Koreans are coming on strong.
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Doofy
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Jan 4, 2012, 11:03 AM
 
Skoda's your best bet ducks - VW quality for less than VW money.
Avoid Ford - they seem to have a problem making cars which last these days (trim is good, but mechanically they're shite).
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nonhuman
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Jan 4, 2012, 11:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Speaking of which I was in a new decked-out Hyundai Genesis a couple weeks ago...pretty impressive for 50 grand, let me tell you. Definitely could have been a Lexus, Infiniti or even a Merc from a look & feel perspective. The Koreans are coming on strong.
The Genesis is pretty nice, but I wasn't too happy with the base model. A fully decked out Sonata (like mine) is about the same price as the base Genesis, but has a lot more of the features that I wanted.

Now the Equus. There's a car.
     
imitchellg5
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Jan 4, 2012, 11:28 AM
 
I have a friend in the Netherlands with a Škoda Superb estate and he loves it. He does about 65.000km a year too, so he spends quite a bit of time in it. His is the 2.0TDI.

Also, I'd look at the Honda Accord estate. It's got a great diesel and is really fun to drive.
     
is not
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Jan 4, 2012, 11:39 AM
 
Hey !

I don’t understand why you need a new car. Your current Megane milleage isn’t that much. The fuel consumption? Me also driving a 2L Turbo petrol M-Benz and I don’t complaint about the fuel, there are many advantages, your petrol Renault doesn’t make any fumes like the diesels, doesn’t lags at lower revs like those diesels, doesn’t emit dispropotionately high levels of NOx like those diesels, doesn’t break… in the end, your petrol Renault doesn’t suck. LOL Maybe you can get about €3500-4500 for it, Do you think is worth? And if the Megane is the 135HP –more or less- you are going to be dissapointed by those140HP range diesels. Yeah, at first you will notice that these cars may have the edge, but in the end, it is a low reving enigne and, after the turbo-excitement has passed, you’ll miss the petrol engine. And don’t believe that the diesel will be the primadonna of fuel comsumption in town or highway. In town is more dissapointing that you can expect, and if you trash the diesel on highroads, the milleage will be low.

This topic needs picts! All those cars you stated, are the new versions? Because you know, the passat is not that new, is just a follow-up of the previous generation.

Take a look at the new B-Class. It is much better in metal than in picts. It is lower, wider and roomier than the outgoing B-class, it also has a higher-quality interior with cues from the range-topping SLS. The seating position is about 86mm lower and more upright, and rear legroom surpass that of the S-class. Boot capacity is also up, to a commodious 666 litres. The fantastic petrol engines are units of 1.6-litre capacity and 122hp and 156hp output, turbo and direct injection. Diesels are 1.8-litre engines that make 109hp and 136hp. A seven-speed dual-clutch gearbox replaces the CVT.

You don't need diesels!!

Cheers!!
     
Doofy
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Jan 4, 2012, 11:46 AM
 
BHP is for girls who have pink bedrooms. Torques are where it's at.
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Jan 4, 2012, 11:54 AM
 
I'm completely unfamiliar with how new vehicles are sold and serviced in France. All I can say is, when buying any car, one of my first evaluations is how easy it will be to get the thing serviced. Even with a new car, if you'd have to have to trucked 100km for service, I'd pass.
     
ort888
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Jan 4, 2012, 11:55 AM
 
Have you thought about a Prius?

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angelmb
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Jan 4, 2012, 12:05 PM
 
There is no Hyundai Sonata here in Europe anymore, it's been replaced by the i40 which, kind of similar to the American centric Sonata.

No chance of finding a heavily discounted V60 ?? Way a better car than those listed by the O.P.

BHP is for girls who have pink bedrooms. Torques are where it's at.
I understand that doesn't imply 'you need a Diesel'. :roll eyes:
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 4, 2012, 12:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
Have you thought about a Prius?
I'd recommend a Kindle Fire first. Less drift.
     
OreoCookie
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Jan 4, 2012, 12:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
Have you thought about a Prius?
Compared to the likes of a Passat station wagon, a Prius is a tiny car.

@OP
I once rented a Ford Mondeo with a 115 hp engine and I wasn't impressed at all with it. It felt very slow and the ride was so-so. My ex gf's parents had a Passat station wagon diesel with 130 hp, now that was a zippy and comfortable car. Not zippy in the sense you'll beat a sports car, but zippy enough to accelerate quickly in city traffic and drive 200 km/h on the autobahn with almost no noise reaching the passengers' ears.
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angelmb
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Jan 4, 2012, 12:41 PM
 
Take a look at the new B-Class. It is much better in metal than in picts.
26000 € here in Spain. I wouldn't spend that in a Toyota, Ford… if the same money can get me a three-pointed star.

You don't need diesels!!
Given your Megane has done only 80000 Km. and IF you're not going to change the usage pattern, he is right, you don't need a Diesel.
     
Doofy
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Jan 4, 2012, 12:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by angelmb View Post
I understand that doesn't imply 'you need a Diesel'. :roll eyes:
There appears to be much talk in this thread about horsepowers. From Americans.
Now, given that Matty isn't a billionaire, and as such probably won't be able fuel up a small block Chevy at French prices in order to gain the appropriate quantity of torques required for good progress in a country which has corners, a diesel is the way to go.

Horsepowers don't matter at all until you're above 100 MPH.

Edit: Here's why you need a diesel in France...

Skoda Superb Estate 1.8 TSI 160 PS
38.7 mpg (combined cycle)
8.52 miles per litre
Cost per litre: 1.49
20,000 miles = € 3,497.65

Skoda Superb Estate 2.0 TDI 140 PS
51.4 mpg (combined cycle)
11.32 miles per litre
Cost per litre: 1.36
20,000 miles = € 2,402.82

Difference: € 1,094.83
That's the insurance and a couple of services covered.
( Last edited by Doofy; Jan 4, 2012 at 12:57 PM. )
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angelmb
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Jan 4, 2012, 01:37 PM
 
Sorry, but that doesn't mean his car is going to be scrapped after 20,000 miles. I would like to know how old his current Megane is, so we can know its mileage per year. That's key, anything else is kind of babbling.

Be aware of this: unless his next car gets the mileage that e.g. imitchell's friends does, 60K/year is a good reason to go for a Diesel, he will end paying more that those 1094 Euros to fix engine issues.

I am honest about it, I don't like Diesel engines, meaning that if after 20,000 miles I would save just 1000 euros, I would go with a Petrol instead. But that's secondary as we're not talking about my next car, it is just that buying a Diesel without looking further than mpg or cost per liter is a mistake. And a big one.
     
nostalgiaCa$h
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Jan 4, 2012, 01:40 PM
 
diesels are cool.

Get an old audi.
     
nostalgiaCa$h
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Jan 4, 2012, 01:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'd recommend a Kindle Fire first. Less drift.
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Doofy
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Jan 4, 2012, 01:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by angelmb View Post
Sorry, but that doesn't mean his car is going to be scrapped after 20,000 miles. I would like to know how old his current Megane is, so we can know its mileage per year. That's key, anything else is kind of babbling.
I was taking 20,000 as an average (which it generally is for a working family man), since we don't know how many miles per year.

Originally Posted by angelmb View Post
I am honest about it, I don't like Diesel engines, meaning that if after 20,000 miles I would save just 1000 euros, I would go with a Petrol instead. But that's secondary as we're not talking about my next car, it is just that buying a Diesel without looking further than mpg or cost per liter is a mistake. And a big one.
If I'm honest about it, I don't like engines under 3.5 litres. My daily drive is a petrol V8 which gets 12 MPG. But we're not talking about my drive, we're looking for a new car for Matty.
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mduell
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Jan 4, 2012, 03:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
There appears to be much talk in this thread about horsepowers. From Americans.
Now, given that Matty isn't a billionaire, and as such probably won't be able fuel up a small block Chevy at French prices in order to gain the appropriate quantity of torques required for good progress in a country which has corners, a diesel is the way to go.

Horsepowers don't matter at all until you're above 100 MPH.
Once you're above about 25mph you can select gearing to make power and torque is no longer of primary importance for making good progress.
     
BadKosh
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Jan 4, 2012, 03:57 PM
 
Passat.
     
Sealobo
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Jan 4, 2012, 07:30 PM
 
get a turbo diesel something wagon.
     
ergo
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Jan 4, 2012, 08:10 PM
 
I drive a Subaru w/petrol engine. Gas mileage isn't all that great but it's been pretty trouble free and its all wheel drive makes for incredibly good stability and traction. Subes are known for reliability.
I'd really like a Subaru w/diesel engine. It's been available in Europe for a while but not in the states yet....maybe sometime this year.
Anyway, I'd say it's worth checking out.

SUBARU | SUBARU BOXER DIESEL
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jan 4, 2012, 08:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'd recommend a Kindle Fire first. Less drift.
You can't be serious.

Try throwing it at a corner and watch it skid!
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jan 4, 2012, 08:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Edit: Here's why you need a diesel in France...

Skoda Superb Estate 1.8 TSI 160 PS
20,000 miles = € 3,497.65

Skoda Superb Estate 2.0 TDI 140 PS
20,000 miles = € 2,402.82

Difference: € 1,094.83
That's the insurance and a couple of services covered.
The way it works here in Germany is that you need to rock around 15-20,000 km per year for the tax difference to be worth it for a diesel (they have WAY higher tax), and the advantage is decreasing as diesel creeps closer to regular petrol in price.
     
mattyb  (op)
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Jan 5, 2012, 09:57 AM
 
Thanks for all the responses. Having probs with the quoting so apologies that my responses don't follow peoples quoted posts.

Our 2nd car is a Hyundai Getz and the dealer was/is really good. I'll look at the i40 SW.

I read that Skodas are noisy at 130km/hr. I'll ask for a test drive. Not just from what you said Doof, but I reckon that I'll skip the Ford Mondeo.

Honda Accord Estate is too expensive here in France, like 8000€ more in some cases.

I need to change the Megane while I can still get a bit of money for it. If I pass the 100,000km mark, then it will be even harder to sell. France is a diesel buying country and (so far) nobody wants to takle it in part exchange for a 2nd hand car. I'm not the Merc B-class type of person. Maybe if I had loads of money, I'd get a flashier car, but I'm not one of the types that actually gives a shit about image or what others think. I personally think that people buy Mercs more for the image than the actual quality/reliability etc. Just MHO mind.

Servicing will be easy 90% of the time for any make of car - I work near an area that has a garage for every car manufacturer under the sun. Getting a non-French car sorted during the French holidays is another issue entirely.

Prius is too small. The boot is anyway.

I rented a Golf Blue Motion Diesel during Christmas and was most impressed with the engine. A few have recommended the Touran since the Passat is so large/long. I shall test drive them both.

Got the Megane new in Nov 2004. I've done more than 80,000 in 7 years and one month. Ave in France is ~15,000km per year. So I'm under what most would consider the threshold for a diesel.

Subaru is too expensive.
     
Jens Peter
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Jan 5, 2012, 02:50 PM
 
Why not a french car -- Peugeot 308 or 508, Citroën C5?

Is a Alfa 159 sportswagon over the budget? Otherwise that would be my choice!
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jan 5, 2012, 04:06 PM
 
I was looking at the Citroën Jumpy/Peugeot Expert a while back.

Those is some nice family cars.
     
mattyb  (op)
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Jan 6, 2012, 12:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jens Peter View Post
Why not a french car -- Peugeot 308 or 508, Citroën C5?

Is a Alfa 159 sportswagon over the budget? Otherwise that would be my choice!
The 508 is expensive : the cheapest is 25,000€ (which has nothing) and then its 36,000€ for the next one up - petrol ones since I'm getting hassle from colleagues for even thinking of a diesel now.

308 doesn't have such a good reputation.

C5 looks pretty good but again its not cheap if you want a bit of equipment.

Yes the Alfa is over the budget, I was hoping to not go over 28,000€

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I was looking at the Citroën Jumpy/Peugeot Expert a while back.

Those is some nice family cars.
A colleague has one and said that if I didn't like noise at motorway speeds I wouldn't like it.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jan 6, 2012, 12:33 PM
 
That really depends upon the version. The different packages have pretty different insulation, though of course, a diesel is always gonna be noisier.
     
seanc
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Jan 9, 2012, 05:05 PM
 
You really just need to get a shortlist together and take them for a drive.
I think I remember the 1.6 Megane's used to scream along at 4000rpm when doing 70/75mph (that and the panoramic sunroof whistle), I would have thought the 2.0 would have better gearing ratios.
Are you still on your first set of key cards? Has anyone put the drivers seat back too far screwed up the airbag system yet?
     
mattyb  (op)
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Jan 9, 2012, 05:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by seanc View Post
You really just need to get a shortlist together and take them for a drive.
I think I remember the 1.6 Megane's used to scream along at 4000rpm when doing 70/75mph (that and the panoramic sunroof whistle), I would have thought the 2.0 would have better gearing ratios.
Are you still on your first set of key cards? Has anyone put the drivers seat back too far screwed up the airbag system yet?
IIRC my 2.0L does 3500rpm for 130 km/hr (80mph). Noisy. I don't have a sunroof.

Yes, first set of key cards. I have the seat right back. Apart from driving into a wall (or getting a service), how does one verify if the airbag system is screwed up?

Trying to find car reviews that measure sound at 130. There are a few but then when I want to compare, there is no data.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jan 9, 2012, 05:15 PM
 
Speaking of new cars, can anyone "lend" me £100k or so?

Eleanor Mustang is for sale - BBC Top Gear

Doofy, you must have an old pair of trousers lying about with some change you won't miss….?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
seanc
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Jan 9, 2012, 05:25 PM
 
Haha. Maybe the Meganes that stay in France are of better build quality than the ones that come to the UK.

Common points of failure I've noticed on two different 2005/2006 cars, the solder joints for transponder coil in the keycards break = non starting car. £80+ for a new one.
Putting the drivers seat back all the way (UK side) damages the cabling/connector of the airbag system, putting the light on permanently and gives you a ratchet sounding steering wheel.
     
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Jan 9, 2012, 07:51 PM
 
Roads play a important part of the noise too. When im at 130 here at home in my 2012 Focus on asphalt pavement its pretty quiet. To quiet actually. When I hit the concrete sections of the i5 in the US the noise is pretty loud. And this was true for a Nissan I rented once for a trip to Seattle and my old Prelude too. Though the Prelude was a lot louder then the Nissan or the Focus at home, it was still a lot louder on the concrete.

Anyways if you can get a Focus in France, I know Holland and Germany have them, I would look at that car. Its a pretty well rounded car for features, space and safety. Great fuel economy too.
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Jan 9, 2012, 11:35 PM
 
Do you have Honda CRV turbodiesels in France? The petrol version is excellent.
     
Doofy
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Jan 10, 2012, 02:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Speaking of new cars, can anyone "lend" me £100k or so?

Eleanor Mustang is for sale - BBC Top Gear

Doofy, you must have an old pair of trousers lying about with some change you won't miss….?
Not for a crappy Ford.
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Jan 17, 2012, 03:19 AM
 
IMO, VW has unfortunately lost the plot. Aside from the Polo/Golf the driving dynamics on their cars seem to be leaning more towards the Toyotas as opposed to the sporty feel they used to offer in the late 90s to the early 00s.

We recently bought a 1.8TSI Skoda with the DSG gearbox, and I'd suggest this without a hitch from the options you've presented. Extremely comfortable ride, not too fancy. However, handling calls for lower profile tires (only cause I switched from a BMW). Pretty much all else is totally functional and understated. A 4x4 combi would be pretty sweet, even tho. I personally prefer the sedan.
That 2.0TDI seems like a nice torquey engine even.
     
   
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