[angevine41]

OK, when I convert the Performa (instead of Centris 610) to a boombox, and need a lot more space than is on the current 1.2g HD (Seagate ST-31276A), what do I get?

I've seen lots of people advising internal drives, for better prices, and IDE over SCSI and others, likewise. But, other than checking for physical size, I can't figure out what I'm supposed to look for, either in general compatibility or for this specific use.

All the talk about ATA, IDE, EIDE, and such confuses me. I saw a Western Digital 20g internal drive (Western Digital Caviar 20.5GB EIDE UltraDMA/66 5400 rpm) at dealmac yesterday for about $86, but can't figure out if my machine would "accept" it. Or, for that matter, if Western Digital is a good brand.

I kind of assume that rpm isn't important; the current 4500 seems plenty fast for mp3's, and all the newer drives are at least 5400 (?)

If ALL I'm going to use the 6360 for is mp3 boombox, and occasional backup word processor, what HD do I need?

[Evangellydonut]

EIDE = Enhanced IDE (?) while ATA pretty much is the same thing as IDE.

To be able to use IDE Harddrives, you'll need to buy an ATA/66 controller. I'm not sure how 'upgradeable' your performa is, nor if it has a NuBus or PCI. I think it's a NuBus, and thusfar, I haven't seen a NuBus ATA/66 card...

For simplicity purposes, you can get a relatively big (compared to what you have), relatively slow (compared to the current SCSI), and relatively expensive (compared to IDE drives) SCSI harddrive...

[angevine41]

Um, my confusion continues......

The current (original, Seagate) drive is "ATA interface," so if ATA and IDE and (I guess) EIDE are about the same, why would I need to buy a controller?

Is there other info I should provide, for anyone to be able to answer my questions? (I went to the Seagate site and printed out the specs for the current drive.)

In case I didn't make it clear, I'm open to EITHER replacing current drive or, if possible, adding new drive, if there's room in case. (It has CD-ROM drive, already, which came with it.)

You can use virtually any ATA, IDE, UDMA drive. They're all backwards-compatible. Some drives are a little finicky about working in "single" mode, but these have mostly been replaced by current models. Western Digital is fine. And, no, don't even consider the controller issue if you're just swapping out drives.

[Evangellydonut]

Wait, so Apple used IDE HDs on the Performas? Interesting...
Well, if you are sure that you have IDE, then go for the cheapest drive that satisfie your size needs. Norman's right 'bout if you add the 2nd HD on top of the first one, make sure they are not on "single" mode. One should be set to Master and other to Slave. That is done through jumper settings on the HD. If you are just replacing the first one, then it doesn't really matter.

[zac4mac]

Apple put IDE's in a bunch of the old performas and resumed with the beige G-3's and later...
AppleSpec says it came with a 1.5GB IDE. It also says it supports an internal CD-ROM, but doesn't say whether the CD is IDE or SCSI. There are issues with certain models on the number of IDE drives that can be connected.Some only allowed one IDE, not two.
My advice would be to look for an ATA/UDMA-33 drive to replace your little drive, unless you get a real good deal on an ATA-66. Your performa will not run a HD at ATA-66 speeds, only 33.
Everything I've read suggests there is little or no difference in the terms IDE/DMA/ATA, EIDE/UDMA... Wintel doublespeak.

[angevine41]

zac, I guess 20g drive for $86 would qualify as "a real good deal," wouldn't it? But I don't understand: are you saying I'd be losing some potential to run it at 33? (Whatever that means!) But that it would otherwise "work"?

I lloked at System Profile, and it says the CD-Rom is SCSI, bus 0.

So, guys, should I grab the Western Digital drive?

[Evangellydonut]

go for it.
It's almost impossible to find new ATA/33 drives nowadays anyway. Basicly, ATA/66 is a faster implementation of the ATA protocal, and allows HDs to handle I/O faster. Since your performa is aged, it only has the ATA/33 controllers in it. (All the G3s are only ATA/33 as well, except maybe the new iMacs starting with RevD?)
Since all the ATA drives are backward compatible, you can put a faster drive than what's listed in your computer specs, just that you won't be able to use the HD itself to the max potential. Chances are, the new HD will perform better than the old one, just because its able to choke your ATA bus more than your current drive. (ATA/100 IBM and Maxtors are definitely faster than the stock ATA/66 WD drives, for example)

There's a simple solution to upgrading the hard drive in the P6360: Buy any ATA/xx hard drive you want. I can guarantee that any 3.5 inch (i.e.half height) drive you buy will work just fine, with very few exceptions. I myself upgraded my Performa 630 hard drive several years ago with a Fujitsu ATA/33 and it works fine. You won't need any special hardware controller or anything. The only problem you might have is that you may need to buy FWB's Hard Drive Toolkit for about $100 if it turns out the drive doesn't work right out of the box, possibly making the upgrade financially draining. I don't know if the less expensive Personal edition of FWB works as well, but it's also worth a look if you do in fact need a driver.

[CyberDave]

Originally posted by Evangellydonut:
Since your performa is aged, it only has the ATA/33 controllers in it. (All the G3s are only ATA/33 as well, except maybe the new iMacs starting with RevD?)

Bzzzzzt! Wrong. The Performa 6360 series doesn't even have ATA/33. It has an ATA interface one step down on the ladder. PIO mode 4 or something arcane like that, as I recall. I tend to think of it as ATA/16.

Since all the ATA drives are backward compatible, you can put a faster drive than what's listed in your computer specs, just that you won't be able to use the HD itself to the max potential. Chances are, the new HD will perform better than the old one, just because its able to choke your ATA bus more than your current drive. (ATA/100 IBM and Maxtors are definitely faster than the stock ATA/66 WD drives, for example)

Going with an ATA/100 or even an ATA/66 isn't worth the extra cash, since the 6360 series doesn't even support this high of speed. He's right about the backwards compatible part, though. Putting in a faster drive won't hurt anything. It'll work just fine, you just won't see the extra speed the ATA/66 interface provides. I know because I replaced the HD in my Performa 6400 with an ATA/33 and there is a negligable increase in speed, but it works just fine. (The 6360 is part of the 64xx family, not the 63xx, series, except it's in a desktop case instead of a tower. Don't ask about the numbering scheme. This was back in the day when no one except God Himself could make sense of the model numbers.)

The only problem with upgrading the hard drive is that the IDE (for the most part, ATA=IDE=EIDE=ATAPI) controller on the motherboard only supports one drive (the CD is SCSI), so transfering any data from the old one to the new one will be a pain unless you can back up to CD-R or Jaz or have access to a B&W G3 or a G4 you can use to transfer the contents. (For details on how to do this, which involves swapping hard drives, you can contact me via email.) Western Digital is a pretty good brand (gets good marks from some of my friends who have built a number of PCs from scratch). Those friends say stay away from Maxtor drives if possible. FWIW, I replaced my stock 1.6 GB in my 6400 with an 8.4 GB Maxtor ATA/33 drive and haven't had any problems at all.

As I recall, Apple's Drive Setup program recognized the drive just fine. It may or may not recognize whatever drive you decide to purchase. I've seen hacks floating around on the net that allow it to recognize most any IDE drive. I can't remember where, though. Try xlr8yourmac.com. I don't remember doing that, but I might have. Anyway, I eventually switched to FWB Hard Disk Toolkit version 3 something because I was able to get a dirt cheap copy of it. Works like a charm.

Hope this helps.


Cheers,
Dave C

[edited to add Drive Setup/HDT info]

[This message has been edited by CyberDave (edited 08-14-2000).]

[angevine41]

Thanks, all, for all the information. Cyberdave, when/if I make the changeover, I won't need to retain the contents of the old HD; I will have gotten new 'puter and transferred to it. And, I'm going to see if I can find Maxtor 33; everything I've seen advertized (from all brands) has been 66+.

Yesterday, though, I ran across this site
http://www.mp3kit.com/trackz.htm

and a couple of similiar, involving how-to plans. Sure is intriguing concept......

[CyberDave]

You might want to consider visiting http://www.pricewatch.com They list prices on thousands of products from hundreds, if not thousands, of independent vendors. Really great site, makes it fairly easy to find the lowest prices on almost any computer product. Arranged into nice, neat categories and sub-categories.

[angevine41]

Well, Dave, I'd been lulled into limited resources by dealmac.com; pricewatch indeed is the place to look for prices. And has an intelligent way of laying out/presenting.

I quickly found plenty of 10g+ maxtors, many for less than $100. On a whim, I wrote down the part number of a 13g model, and went to maxtor.com. They have pages and specs (in html, word, pdf) for each model.

Are there key specs or indicators that would tell me whether any given HD would work with my 6360?

What did you think of the "trackz" scheme? It had already occurred to me that these little multi-gig HD's would be perfect to incorporate into music systems, to play mp3's. Even better than the mp3 CD players, which are themselves a vast improvement on those silly, expensive, limited RIO's.

[tooki]

You asked about Western Digital's reputation -- well, here is the consensus of me and my friends: DON'T BUY THEM! Many friends of mine have had them die within one year of purchase, on numerous occasions. I'm not saying you're guaranteed to get a lemon if you buy a WD, but a Maxtor or IBM or Quantum (my fave is IBM) are safer bets.

tooki

Legal disclaimer: The above statement does not necessarily reflect the views of MacNN as a whole, and should not be constituted as such.

[angevine41]

tooki, thanks. I'd begun to lean toward maxtor, but am glad to know about the others.

I still wonder what indicators there might be for any given HD working with my computer. Does anyone know of a good tutorial somewhere that guides one through the change-over, and points out problems to look for?

And I still don't understand why specialized drivers are sometimes required. I guess the hardware/connection aspect is "easier" than the software?

I don't know of any tutorial or anything that will guide you through the process of upgrading the drive. I really don't think you have to worry though, most cases I have heard of have ended on happy notes. I upgraded my Performa 630's hard drive with no trouble, and I know that The Wolfe is old hat when it comes to that sort of thing. In fact, I doubt that any of his computers from the 1990's still have their original hard drives in them. If you have any questions, he's probably the guy to ask.

In responce to Tooki's comment, I personally haven't had any problems with Western Digital drives, although your own mileage may vary. I have installed Quantums, Seagates, Western Digitals, and Maxtors in older IDE based Performa and Quadra machines. IDE is a very backward compatable interface, and I've even had good results with a new 7200RPM ATA-66 Quntum drive in my UMAX C500 (which has a slow IDE 16mbps interface). IDE drives are so cheap these days that it really doesn't matter if you go overboard on specs.

My favorite drives are IBM, Fujitsu, and Maxtor (in that order), although Quntum and WDC drives are fine too.

If you live anywhere near a Fry's Electronics store you can get a 20GB Quantum 5400RPM ATA-33 drives for $68. Wow!

------------------
Eliott Wolfe
Winnetka, Calif

[angevine41]

Well, I'm about an hour and a half north of Sacramento, where there's a Fry's. On the other hand, there are several online places listed at Pricewatch who have 20g IBM drives for $89-99. Several of you rate IBM highest; is this because of expected life? And/or just all-round quality?

Amazing how quickly we've all begun to think in multi-gigs...........

[angevine41]

Oh, I meant to ask: what about those IDE to USB cases you can get? It would be nice to be able to pop the IDE drive into a "portable" case, and take it to work, to the G4, to transfer MP3 files.....

Dealmac had a lead on them awhile back, but they quickly sold out.....

[Evangellydonut]

last time I checked, Fry's Electronics had a lot of the Maxtor drives with USB casing for relatively cheap...