[Logic]

Jewishness versus democracy

A very good article on Israeli "democracy".

[Saad]

Originally posted by Logic:
Jewishness versus democracy

A very good article on Israeli "democracy".

In over 50 years, this is what they figure out.

[vmarks]

Except for the fact that it's written by a gentleman in Cairo who makes some factual errors with regard to land purchase and ownership law, and decides to harp on immigration law- basically falling into the failed arguments of anti-Jews and those opposed to the existence of Israel at all.

[Logic]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Except for the fact that it's written by a gentleman in Cairo who makes some factual errors with regard to land purchase and ownership law, and decides to harp on immigration law- basically falling into the failed arguments of anti-Jews and those opposed to the existence of Israel at all.

What factual errors? And was he wrong in any way about the immigration laws?

edited to add: And this "gentleman in Cairo" is a member of the Knesset.

[Logic]

Originally posted by Logic:
What factual errors? And was he wrong in any way about the immigration laws?

edited to add: And this "gentleman in Cairo" is a member of the Knesset.

*bump*

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by Logic:
Jewishness versus democracy

A very good article on Israeli "democracy".

The much more interesting story therein is the intention of Sharon's government or Israel's parliament to finally write a constitution for Israel. It should be carefully observed what direction that constitution takes as it can change a lot espescially for the israelis that happen to be muslims.

Taliesin

[Zimphire]

Jewishness?

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Jewishness?

you know... it's a term used to inflame, marking them as seperate, making it easier to denounce and then eradicate them. That way, people can just be criticized for the "Jewishness" and then be persecuted. See? BTW, Zimph, be a dear and see if the ovens are warm yet.

[PacHead]

Logic is just showing his Muslimness.

[MATTRESS]

Israel isn't a democracy.

[Logic]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
you know... it's a term used to inflame, marking them as seperate, making it easier to denounce and then eradicate them. That way, people can just be criticized for the "Jewishness" and then be persecuted. See? BTW, Zimph, be a dear and see if the ovens are warm yet.

If anyone is trying to label Israeli Jews as first and foremost Jews it is themselves. They are the ones trying to make sure Israel is a Jewish state.

Why is it that you think saying someone is a Jew is derogatory?

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Logic:
If anyone is trying to label Israeli Jews as first and foremost Jews it is themselves. They are the ones trying to make sure Israel is a Jewish state.

Why is it that you think saying someone is a Jew is derogatory?

We know what a Jew is, a person who is of that ethnos/religion.

Now, tell me, what is "Jewishness"? Since it's been made up by their enemies and detractors, it definitely wouldn't have a negative connotation, now would it? Would we be remiss to talk about your "Islamness".

[MATTRESS]

Does Israel treat people differently based on their Jewishness/non-Jewishness? Does Israel restrict people on their ability to travel, own a house, have a job, obtain an education, or serve in the military based on whether the person is a Jew or a non-Jew?

Israel ain't a f*cking democracy.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:

Israel ain't a f*cking democracy.

Much more so than the Arab states surrounding it.

[Logic]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Much more so than the Arab states surrounding it.

So that makes it OK? I guess as long as the victims are dark skinned it's OK for you Americans.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Logic:
So that makes it OK? I guess as long as the victims are dark skinned it's OK for you Americans.

Makes what ok? I just said that Israel is more of a Democracy than the Arab states surrounding it, and that's true.

[Logic]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Makes what ok? I just said that Israel is more of a Democracy than the Arab states surrounding it, and that's true.

It isn't a democracy. That's true. It might not be as autocratic as SA, Kuwait and Qatar. But a democracy it is not.

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Makes what ok? I just said that Israel is more of a Democracy than the Arab states surrounding it, and that's true.

The relation between democracy and dictatorships is that they are close cousins. The one changes to the other or vice versa depending on the level of education of the masses and also on the level of danger, threats and outside interests are involved.

The higher the percentage of the mass-population that is educated beyond the level of reading/writing and calculating to also include abstract thinking and selfreflection, analysis and discussion, the more the need and wish comes up to participate in self-government. It's a natural process that transforms absolutistic monarchies and dictatorships into democracies. That process is only slowed down by the dictator himself that limits public education and the funding of it, and by outside forces that support the dictatorship diplomatically, financially and military, so that the dictator can terrorise its more and more educated and rebellious population, and be at the same time relatively independent of their approval or support.

Israel's non-arabic population is made up of ex-europeans that had the delight of european education to the level that is necessary for self-governing.

So, it's not some inherent trait or character of israelis to prefer democracy over dictatorship, it's just the natural consequence of the level of education of the masses.
On the other hand the arabic countries sit on vital ressources for the european and american economies and so those mights see the interest of supporting unchanging dictatorships in the region and therefore also the interest to keep the education of the masses below a certain level.

Taliesin

[Saad]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
you know... it's a term used to inflame, marking them as seperate, making it easier to denounce and then eradicate them. That way, people can just be criticized for the "Jewishness" and then be persecuted. See? BTW, Zimph, be a dear and see if the ovens are warm yet.

I think it's a reference to a religous, Jewish state, or a secular state.

[CreepingDeth]

"Jewishness?"

1. Democracy is not freedom.
EX:


An Ayn Rynd take on it:

The American system is not a democracy. It is a constitutional republic. A democracy, if you attach meaning to terms, is a system of unlimited majority rule; the classic example is ancient Athens. And the symbol of it is the fate of Socrates, who was put to death legally, because the majority didn't like what he was saying, although he had initiated no force and had violated no one's rights.

Democracy, in short, is a form of collectivism, which denies the individual rights: the majority can do whatever it wants with no restrictions. In principle, the democratic government is all-powerful. Democracy is a totalitarian manifestation; it is not a form of freedom...

The American system is a constitutionally limited republic, restricted to the protection of individual rights. In such a system, majority rule is applicable only to lesser details, such as the selection of certain personnel. But the majority has no say over the basic principles governing the government. It has no power to ask for or gain the infringement of individual rights.

This article is specifically about the electoral college, but it also has alot of relation to the topic of democracy.


Now, I'm sure most of you think democracy=freedom. Given the thread title, it should be renamed Freedom vs Jewishness�or if you're a sick little prick who doesn't censor himself�freedom vs Jewish oppression. Well, that's how Logic sees it.

Now then, since democracy is not freedom, we might be able to call it "collectivism vs 'Jewishness'" I wouldn't use the word "jewishness" though, because the reason for its use is dubious.

I see where you're going with this, and given your past, I know this will turn into a Jew flame.

[UnixMac]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
Israel isn't a democracy.

if it were, it would stop being a "jewish state" which just shows the hypocracy of US policy in that regeion since we claim to support them because they are the only "democracy" in the area... BS... it's becase behind the NRA, the Jewish lobby owns congress by the balls.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by UnixMac:
� the Jewish lobby owns congress by the balls.

The "Zionist Congress?"
Repeat after me: Zog doesn't exist, Zog doesn't exist�

I'm sorry, but we have a moral obligation to keep Israelis murdered by fascists in headscarves who wish to pursue a policy of "from the river to the sea"�extermination of all Jews. Now, I know that's not a problem for the "America first" policy.

That whole deal also plays into the "Jews own everything" arguments used by losers like Buchanan. See "Chomsky & Anti-Semitism" link in my sig.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Makes what ok? I just said that Israel is more of a Democracy than the Arab states surrounding it, and that's true.

But you said something good about Israel! And we can't have that.

[Saad]

In the Jewsih state today, 3,636,195 residents are denied the vote by virtue of their living in the West Bank.

[UnixMac]

Originally posted by CreepingDeth:


The "Zionist Congress?"
Repeat after me: Zog doesn't exist, Zog doesn't exist�

I'm sorry, but we have a moral obligation to keep Israelis murdered by fascists in headscarves who wish to pursue a policy of "from the river to the sea"�extermination of all Jews. Now, I know that's not a problem for the "America first" policy.

That whole deal also plays into the "Jews own everything" arguments used by losers like Buchanan. See "Chomsky & Anti-Semitism" link in my sig.

you are 100% wrong, congress is very much under the weight of the Jewish lobby. People are entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts sir.

NRA, Jewish Lobby, AARP

in that order.

[Logic]

I never thought that I who speak English as a third language would need to teach native English speaking people their own language.

Jewishness

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by UnixMac:
you are 100% wrong, congress is very much under the weight of the Jewish lobby. People are entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts sir.

NRA, Jewish Lobby, AARP

in that order.

So lobbying for Gun rights and Israel's right to land is�bad?

Sorry, but the whole premise of this thread puts Jews on the side of unfreedom (1984-ish) or, if you will, oppression.

Which of course is absolute ********.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by CreepingDeth:
"Jewishness?"

1. Democracy is not freedom.
EX:

You get Algeria.

That's EXACTLY what happened there.

After years of hard work and socio/economic/political progress Algeria finally held an election. Islamics were voted in. The Islamics abolished the electoral process after they won office. (Once they got power they WEREN'T about to give it up!)

Civil war ever since.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by UnixMac:
if it were, it would stop being a "jewish state" which just shows the hypocracy of US policy in that regeion since we claim to support them because they are the only "democracy" in the area... BS... it's becase behind the NRA, the Jewish lobby owns congress by the balls.

No one has a problem with ending the violence or oppression of Palestinians or granting the Palestinian people the right to self government or the Arabs who live in Israel equal rights.

But if they can't pass even the FIRST test to getting all those things realized, then, IMO, it's a matter between their leadership and the Israelis and I'll defer to the Israeli's judgment as they are the ones who must deal with such idiocy. Oh, and if they need a few more billions, let's take a look at how they'll spend it and all, but before even looking at the aid request, I'm thinking, 'yeah, let's give it to them.'

The Palestinians could be so much further along than they are and so much better off.

Arafat...may he live long enough to regret his evil, greed and ignorance.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
No one has a problem with ending the violence or oppression of Palestinians or granting the Palestinian people the right to self government or the Arabs who live in Israel equal rights.

But if they can't pass even the FIRST test to getting all those things realized, then, IMO, it's a matter between their leadership and the Israelis and I'll defer to the Israeli's judgment as they are the ones who must deal with such idiocy. Oh, and if they need a few more billions, let's take a look at how they'll spend it and all, but before even looking at the aid request, I'm thinking, 'yeah, let's give it to them.'

The Palestinians could be so much further along than they are and so much better off.

Arafat...may he live long enough to regret his evil, greed and ignorance.

Regret? Regret is for someone who stole a pack of gum from a candy store. Arafat deserves nothing less than death, be it natural or from automatic weaponry.

Hopefully, the Hamas and Islamic Jihad assholes won't take power. If they get a man in that can negotiate and stop attacks, Israel will listen. Until then�