[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

No. Outlawing it wouldn't make sense. People wouldn't believe just because it's the law that you should be a Muslim. It wouldn't help anyone.

How are the Hindus getting on in Saudi?

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Now, do you consider freedom of religion to be a bad thing?

No. I consider islam to be a bad thing. It's strange how I don't feel this way about other religions such as Hinduism, Sikhism and Buddhism, no? Must be something in your particular religion which makes me think it's a cancer on the face of humanity, perhaps?

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Or do you just believe that everyone who converts to a certain religion should move to an area with a majority of people of that religion?

No. Just you guys.
Just think, you'd be able to visit mecca more often if you lived closer to it.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I was thinking about something but that would probably lead to this thread being locked and I don't want that as I think it's important for people to see what you say. It's a good reminder for people that racism and bigotry still exists in Europe.

I'm a white guy talking to a white guy. How is that racism?

And bigotry? Bigotry is good. It means you've come to a conclusion and you're sticking to it because you believe it to be right. You like Macs over PCs? You're a bigot!

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

How is it not a personal attack?

I said you were delusional. It's not like I called you a retard or anything.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

You just don't understand why it is done.

So tell me why it's done.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

How are the Hindus getting on in Saudi?

Who, except the House of Saudi, have claimed that the Saudis are the pinnacle of Islam on earth? Saudi Arabia is far from being a Muslim country.

No. I consider islam to be a bad thing. It's strange how I don't feel this way about other religions such as Hinduism, Sikhism and Buddhism, no? Must be something in your particular religion which makes me think it's a cancer on the face of humanity, perhaps?

Or that you simply don't understand a word since it's above your intellectual capability? Could be as well, and is probably more likely

No. Just you guys.
Just think, you'd be able to visit mecca more often if you lived closer to it.

So?

You still haven't answered why you consider Europe to be a Christian continent. There were religions before Christianity here and only military conquest changed that.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

I'm a white guy talking to a white guy. How is that racism?

And bigotry? Bigotry is good. It means you've come to a conclusion and you're sticking to it because you believe it to be right. You like Macs over PCs? You're a bigot!

The typical refuge of someone like you. Semantics.

I said you were delusional. It's not like I called you a retard or anything.

And your point? You've been lacking a point in most of your recent posts.

So tell me why it's done.

I've told you I'm not gonna spend my time teaching you about Islam. Your mind is closed and that won't change.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Who, except the House of Saudi, have claimed that the Saudis are the pinnacle of Islam on earth? Saudi Arabia is far from being a Muslim country.

So, I'll rephrase. How are the Hindus doing in mecca?

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Or that you simply don't understand a word since it's above your intellectual capability? Could be as well, and is probably more likely

Yes, of course it's beyond my intellectual capability. Only intelligent people can understand islam.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

You still haven't answered why you consider Europe to be a Christian continent. There were religions before Christianity here and only military conquest changed that.

Name me some military conquests which brought Christianity to Europe.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

The typical refuge of someone like you. Semantics.

Arh. So you're OK with expanding the word "racism" if it suits your argument and show the semantic card if anyone disagrees with that? Good stuff, well done.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

And your point? You've been lacking a point in most of your recent posts.

No I haven't. You might have been missing the point.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I've told you I'm not gonna spend my time teaching you about Islam. Your mind is closed and that won't change.

Arh. So you don't know then.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Muslims believe that every single human born is a Muslim.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

People wouldn't believe just because it's the law that you should be a Muslim. It wouldn't help anyone.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Now, do you consider freedom of religion to be a bad thing?

[von Wrangell]

Your point has been so watered out by now that I guess it's time to add this nick to the ignore list as well. Best that way for all involved.

Have a nice day.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Your point has been so watered out by now that I guess it's time to add this nick to the ignore list as well.

Arh. Popping someone in the ignore list - last refuge of the wrong.

[Macrobat]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Did you quote the wrong post or? I said nothing about America. There's no need to be so insecure.

If there is anyone that should be beaten about the head with the US constitution it's Sherwin. He's the one against freedom of religion. Not me.

Not as long as it's your religion, you mean.

Everyone should realize by now that this board exists solely for Illogic to pntificate to us great unwashed and uneducated, remaining in awe of the intellectual prowess, then simply go our way, without commenting. I mean, why debate when he's always right?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Macrobat

Not as long as it's your religion, you mean.

Umm, no. I don't care what religion you follow or if you don't follow any religion. It's none of my business. Don't really get why you believe that as I haven't started a single thread attacking other religions or a thread "evangelising" Islam. If you could point out why you believe that I'd be thankful.

Everyone should realize by now that this board exists solely for Illogic to pntificate to us great unwashed and uneducated, remaining in awe of the intellectual prowess, then simply go our way, without commenting. I mean, why debate when he's always right?

Where do you get this stuff from? Are you sure you aren't confusing me with someone else?

[Y3a]

I think that if the 'west' DOES nuke a dozen Muslim cities it would be their fault anyway.
Just as the cleric states that the UK bombings was the UK's fault(and Blair).

The Taliban has destroyed other non-muslim shrines etc,
so I think leveling/melting 25 or more Muslim holy sites would be fair. IMHO.

[von Wrangell]

So you want to go down to the level of the Talibans. Sad to know that.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I don't care what religion you follow or if you don't follow any religion.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Muslims believe that every single human born is a Muslim.

[goMac]

After seeing how people act in this thread it's really obvious why some muslims want to blow the US up.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by goMac

After seeing how people act in this thread it's really obvious why some muslims want to blow the US up.

Hope you're not including me in that statement.

[von Wrangell]

http://www.denverpost.com/nationworld/ci_2872009

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...071900989.html

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drm...939335,00.html

More on the topic

[von Wrangell]

To show just how utterly clueless this man is:

Despite an international outcry, the Colorado Republican continued to stand by his comments Tuesday, saying he did not intend to offend moderate Muslims during last week's interview with Florida radio talk show host Pat Campbell.

http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/st...939704,00.html

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

And again you turn to the personal attacks. What a surprise. Muslims believe that every single human born is a Muslim. Meaning a child born is pure.

There's a school of thought out there which states that the universe itself is a Muslim. The hell of it is, if you consider the definition of what a Muslim is, this statement is not only correct but provable.

Consider: "Islam" roughly translates as "submission", with the very specific connotation of submission to the laws set forth by God. "Muslim" means "one who practices Islam", or simply, "one who submits". From all science has been able to determine, the universe does indeed follow set laws: we call them the laws of physics and chemistry and quantum mechanics and so forth. If, indeed, there is a higher being which created the universe, then it stands to reason that this being set forth these laws. Therefore, if God exists, then the universe is in fact a Muslim, since it follows the laws set down for it. Just an interesting point.

Then again, this same school of thought could be expanded. Humans are subject to the laws of physics and chemistry and biology and so forth, just like every other being in the universe. Most religions believe in some sort of creator deity -whether that deity created the cosmos itself or only parts of it- and this deity sets forth some sort of laws by definition, whether of morality or basic psychology or even just a definition of the human condition itself. By this definition, every man, woman, and child on the planet is at least partially Muslim, and anyone who believes in a creator and is devout in their faith -whatever it may be- is in fact a complete Muslim, whether or not they practice the faith commonly called "Islam". Therefore, if all Muslims are brothers in spirit, then no human is anything less than a half-brother to anyone else, and each and every one falls under the definition of Muslim brotherhood.

The horrible abuse of the concept of Muslim brotherhood perpetrated by the terrorists is thus magnified: they are not only denying brotherhood to certain people, but they are telling Muslims to kill their own brothers! If we follow this line of thought, then can anyone truly say that the terrorists are following the Islamic faith they claim to be? Can anyone truly trust people who would do this? It might be possible to excuse someone who did not know the concept of universal brotherhood, but the terrorists not only know of it, they depend on it. Is this not hypocritical?

I do not practice "Islam" (in quotes to signify the faith commonly called Islam, rather than the definition of submission which I have stated above), but I am fascinated by this line of thought. As far as the definitions I've used go, I can't deny that it has a point. However, that point is not a complete victory for either side of this argument; certainly it exposes the terrorists as hypocrites, but it gives both "Muslims" and "non-Muslims" something to think about. If nothing else, it may be the most powerful argument I've seen for Unitarian Universalism over Islam that I've ever seen, and I don't follow that faith either.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Millennium

There's a school of thought out there which states that the universe itself is a Muslim. The hell of it is, if you consider the definition of what a Muslim is, this statement is not only correct but provable.

Consider: "Islam" roughly translates as "submission", with the very specific connotation of submission to the laws set forth by God. "Muslim" means "one who practices Islam", or simply, "one who submits". From all science has been able to determine, the universe does indeed follow set laws: we call them the laws of physics and chemistry and quantum mechanics and so forth. If, indeed, there is a higher being which created the universe, then it stands to reason that this being set forth these laws. Therefore, if God exists, then the universe is in fact a Muslim, since it follows the laws set down for it. Just an interesting point.

Then again, this same school of thought could be expanded. Humans are subject to the laws of physics and chemistry and biology and so forth, just like every other being in the universe. Most religions believe in some sort of creator deity -whether that deity created the cosmos itself or only parts of it- and this deity sets forth some sort of laws by definition, whether of morality or basic psychology or even just a definition of the human condition itself. By this definition, every man, woman, and child on the planet is at least partially Muslim, and anyone who believes in a creator and is devout in their faith -whatever it may be- is in fact a complete Muslim, whether or not they practice the faith commonly called "Islam". Therefore, if all Muslims are brothers in spirit, then no human is anything less than a half-brother to anyone else, and each and every one falls under the definition of Muslim brotherhood.

The horrible abuse of the concept of Muslim brotherhood perpetrated by the terrorists is thus magnified: they are not only denying brotherhood to certain people, but they are telling Muslims to kill their own brothers! If we follow this line of thought, then can anyone truly say that the terrorists are following the Islamic faith they claim to be? Can anyone truly trust people who would do this? It might be possible to excuse someone who did not know the concept of universal brotherhood, but the terrorists not only know of it, they depend on it. Is this not hypocritical?

I do not practice "Islam" (in quotes to signify the faith commonly called Islam, rather than the definition of submission which I have stated above), but I am fascinated by this line of thought. As far as the definitions I've used go, I can't deny that it has a point. However, that point is not a complete victory for either side of this argument; certainly it exposes the terrorists as hypocrites, but it gives both "Muslims" and "non-Muslims" something to think about. If nothing else, it may be the most powerful argument I've seen for Unitarian Universalism over Islam that I've ever seen, and I don't follow that faith either.

Post of the Month™



I had heard about that theory but never seen it put in such an eloquent way.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Hope you're not including me in that statement.

Do you think you fall under that statement?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by goMac

Do you think you fall under that statement?

It would be impossible for me to fall under that statement.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

What I mean is there is no guarantee that the US would win such a war. The US military is extremely effective at indentifiable targets, but there would be few such targets in this war (which is possibly what leads to the identification of religious sites as potential targets)

Most likely, both sides would lose.

Couldn't help myself. I had this overwhelming compulsion to post these lyrics.

Otherwise known as, "Let's Drop the BIG ONE Now," the real title is...

Political Science

by Randy Newman

No one likes us-I don't know why
We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try
But all around, even our old friends put us down
Let's drop the big one and see what happens

We give them money-but are they grateful?
No, they're spiteful and they're hateful
They don't respect us-so let's surprise them
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them

Asia's crowded and Europe's too old
Africa is far too hot
And Canada's too cold
And South America stole our name
Let's drop the big one
There'll be no one left to blame us

We'll save Australia
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo
We'll build an All American amusement park there
They got surfin', too

Boom goes London and boom Paree
More room for you and more room for me
And every city the whole world round
Will just be another American town
Oh, how peaceful it will be
We'll set everybody free
You'll wear a Japanese kimono
And there'll be Italian shoes for me

They all hate us anyhow
So let's drop the big one now
Let's drop the big one now

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Doofy

It would be impossible for me to fall under that statement.

Isn't it odd though that you seem to think the statement was pointed at you?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by goMac

Isn't it odd though that you seem to think the statement was pointed at you?

I appear to have been the most vocal in this thread, so it's not odd at all.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

If I'm being an arse when worrying about innocent civilians then so be it. If I'm being an arse when worrying about the response a comment like this can bring then so be it. If I'm being an arse in trying to make sure this will never be done because there are about 1.5 billion Muslims in this world and the majority of them would never accept attacks like those mentioned in this thread then so be it.

At least I am an arse who understands history and the importance of religious symbols. Something you Americans obviously don't understand(as long as it isn't Christian symbols).


Tell me, what would be gained from bombing Mecca and Madinah?

Hopefully it would never come to that. But it's important that we all understand OBL and his crew hold in their (prayer bead clutching) hands the fate of Mecca and Medina.

[UNTeMac]

Originally Posted by Doofy

<snip>
Name me some military conquests which brought Christianity to Europe.

Holy shite, this one jumped out at me. How old are you to have missed this in history class? The ROMANS brought christianity to Europe. Europe was almost entirely pagan before each of its tribes fell to Roman conquest.

As for the rest of that exchange, there are some interesting revelations going on in here. Doofy (formerly Sherwin?) believes all of Islam is evil. Am I the only one who notices that?

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

To show just how utterly clueless this man is:

http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/st...939704,00.html

I will prove to you how Tancredo's statement isn't clueless (although one MIGHT question his decision to say in the press what many had to have been thinking for some time...on both sides).

Answer me this:

"What would/should the US do if OBL actually did nuke an American city?"

"Knowing of his stated intent to bring down the Great Satan, and believing he probably already has "suitcase nukes" pre-positioned in several American cities, what has kept him from triggering them?"

Yes, there is a possible downside to going public with these thoughts but this OF ALL SUBJECTS deserve to be aired in the public NOT decided behind closed doors.

I think.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by UNTiMac

Holy shite, this one jumped out at me. How old are you to have missed this in history class? The ROMANS brought christianity to Europe. Europe was almost entirely pagan before each of its tribes fell to Roman conquest.

Some freaky history they teach you over there dude. The Romans conquered Europe before Christianity was born. The fact that Christianity spread through their empire afterwards doesn't mean that the conquest brought Christianity. The conquest brought peace and order (and resources/pride for the emperor), Christianity followed later.

Originally Posted by UNTiMac

Doofy (formerly Sherwin?)

Correct.

Originally Posted by UNTiMac

As for the rest of that exchange, there are some interesting revelations going on in here. Doofy (formerly Sherwin?) believes all of Islam is evil. Am I the only one who notices that?

I believe the ideologies and existence of the cult of islam to be evil, yes. I don't believe that all of the people who follow it are evil - most of them are simply misguided.

Here's a summary from those with more experience than I:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm
(be sure to read it all if you seek the truth)

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Hopefully it would never come to that. But it's important that we all understand OBL and his crew hold in their (prayer bead clutching) hands the fate of Mecca and Medina.

So you are gonna destroy something that 1.5 million revere because of one lunatic and his followers. Somehow that doesn't make sense for me.

I can just promise you one thing. If the US(and the West) ever touches Mecca like that the whole world will be engulfed in war. Moderates like me will take the fight to you in a way you've never seen before. Moderates like me will make sure you will never be able to walk on this earth in safety. Moderates like me who fight extremism on a daily basis will make sure that the extremists will look like innocent puppies in your eyes.

That you even can consider this option makes me furious. That you will allow a madman to make you start WWIII and that will lead to Yaum Al-Qiyâmah makes me furious. That you even consider this shows that you are no better than OBL.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by mojo2

I will prove to you how Tancredo's statement isn't clueless (although one MIGHT question his decision to say in the press what many had to have been thinking for some time...on both sides).

Answer me this:

"What would/should the US do if OBL actually did nuke an American city?"

"Knowing of his stated intent to bring down the Great Satan, and believing he probably already has "suitcase nukes" pre-positioned in several American cities, what has kept him from triggering them?"

Yes, there is a possible downside to going public with these thoughts but this OF ALL SUBJECTS deserve to be aired in the public NOT decided behind closed doors.

1. Hunt him down as well as his followers and punish them accordingly.
2. The only thing that has kept him from doing that is that he simply doesn't have them. He'll(and his followers) do whatever is possible to hurt the US(and the West to a lesser degree) and push the US into a war against Islam. That you are considering granting him that wish just shows how little the US knows about history.

I think.

I doubt it

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Umm, no. I don't care what religion you follow or if you don't follow any religion. It's none of my business. Don't really get why you believe that as I haven't started a single thread attacking other religions or a thread "evangelising" Islam. If you could point out why you believe that I'd be thankful.

Where do you get this stuff from? Are you sure you aren't confusing me with someone else?

Alright, then how does your statement here square with your past admission that you felt responsible for saving the world. OBL and crew say EVERYONE should believe as they. The Koran seems to say it's ok if people are merely of the book. If you want to save the world don't you believe everyone must AL LEAST be of SOME religion? Otherwise, you aren't living up to your responsibility.

I believe I am the one who he refers to as I is usually right, if not to say, usually or sometimes, known to be, once in a while not wrong.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I can just promise you one thing. If the US(and the West) ever touches Mecca like that the whole world will be engulfed in war. Moderates like me will take the fight to you in a way you've never seen before. Moderates like me will make sure you will never be able to walk on this earth in safety. Moderates like me who fight extremism on a daily basis will make sure that the extremists will look like innocent puppies in your eyes.

So, if the US nukes mecca the moderate islamics, concerned more about their holy city than about justice, peace and good judgement, will engulf innocent countries like Germany, Peru and Namibia in a global war. You heard it here first folks.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Alright, then how does your statement here square with your past admission that you felt responsible for saving the world. OBL and crew say EVERYONE should believe as they. The Koran seems to say it's ok if people are merely of the book. If you want to save the world don't you believe everyone must AL LEAST be of SOME religion? Otherwise, you aren't living up to your responsibility.

Saving the world does not necessarily mean by reverting everyone back to Islam. Good deeds go a long way. Many do good deeds but don't believe in God. It is not up to me to decide if they will go into Jahannam or Jannah. Only God knows that. All I can do is live as an example for others and get people to do good deeds. People around me who aren't Muslims have started studying Islam as they have seen how I have changed. They have gotten interested in Islam thanks to me being able to live as an example for others. If they find in their heart that God exists, good. If not I have still had an effect on them and they might do more good deeds than not. Then it is up to God to decide if they will go into Jahannam or Jannah.

I believe I am the one who he refers to as I is usually right, if not to say, usually or sometimes, known to be, once in a while not wrong.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

1. Hunt him down as well as his followers and punish them accordingly.
2. The only thing that has kept him from doing that is that he simply doesn't have them. He'll(and his followers) do whatever is possible to hurt the US(and the West to a lesser degree) and push the US into a war against Islam. That you are considering granting him that wish just shows how little the US knows about history.

1) Sorry, but that wouldn't satisfy our need to even the score. "Quid pro quo, Clarice. Quid pro quo."
2) If these OBL "love notes" don't exist, then why are you getting upset?
If the first condition is not true nor is likely to be true, then the proposed result is a moot point.

If a 600 lb. sow sprouts feathered wings and flies to the Fox News studio and in a human voice demands fair treatment for pigs then I am going to declare war on pigs and begin tossing hand grenades and molotov cocktails at pig farms.

The first condition is unlikely, so pig farmers can sleep soundly tonite (and every night) because a 600 lb sow would never fly to Fox News. More likely the BBC.

I doubt it

Wouldn't it be funny if OBL wanted to show the world he was serious and decided to nuke a country that was making noises about becoming closer to the US, a place where a really small nuke wouldn't kill all THAT many people, but it would get the message across to EVERYONE.

What if that place were Raykeevic?

Hey, OBL don't care about no body. Especially MODERATE Muslims!

WOW! Just think of the Tsunami that would hit the US with all those icebergs on Greenland suddenly dropping into the Atlantic from the heat of the explosion. It could get nasty on the East Coast.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by mojo2

1) Sorry, but that wouldn't satisfy our need to even the score. "Quid pro quo, Clarice. Quid pro quo."

"An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind."

"The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong."

"What difference does it make to the dead... whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?"

M.K. Ghandi


I'll deal with the rest of your post tomorrow. Getting late here.

[UNTeMac]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Some freaky history they teach you over there dude. The Romans conquered Europe before Christianity was born. The fact that Christianity spread through their empire afterwards doesn't mean that the conquest brought Christianity. The conquest brought peace and order (and resources/pride for the emperor), Christianity followed later.

I'll concede that distinction but it still doesn't support your contention that Europe was a Christian continent. The original Europeans were no more Christian the Native Americans here.

I believe the ideologies and existence of the cult of islam to be evil, yes. I don't believe that all of the people who follow it are evil - most of them are simply misguided.

Here's a summary from those with more experience than I:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm
(be sure to read it all if you seek the truth)

*shrug* I have no way to verify the validity of that site and frankly, a site that identifies itself as anti-muslim doesn't hold much weight with me. Here's a response to it in any case just to show there are two sides.

http://www.faithfreedom.com/essential_learning.html

[mojo2]

[QUOTE=von Wrangell]So you are gonna destroy something that 1.5 million revere because of one lunatic and his followers. Somehow that doesn't make sense for me.

Ahhh! That's the point! OBL's lunacy is a contagion. He's making the WORLD CRAZY! NOW do you see why it is up to the moderate Muslims to set in motion plans to prevent him from dragging you into some deep doo doo? I recall advising you of this conclusion when we discussed this in the fall of 2004. But, as often happens, it takes the slow page by page unfolding of events to bring many people to understand what others (such as ???) can grasp in a blinding flash of insight.

I can just promise you one thing. If the US(and the West) ever touches Mecca like that the whole world will be engulfed in war. Moderates like me will take the fight to you in a way you've never seen before. Moderates like me will make sure you will never be able to walk on this earth in safety. Moderates like me who fight extremism on a daily basis will make sure that the extremists will look like innocent puppies in your eyes.

That you even can consider this option makes me furious. That you will allow a madman to make you start WWIII and that will lead to Yaum Al-Qiyâmah makes me furious. That you even consider this shows that you are no better than OBL.

Not that your Swedish Air Force Ranger training isn't impressive and intimidating and all, but wouldn't the BETTER target for your threats and ire be, as I said in 2004 and I'll say again...



O frickin B azzole L??????


I think you understand now.

[UNTeMac]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

So you are gonna destroy something that 1.5 million revere because of one lunatic and his followers. Somehow that doesn't make sense for me.

I can just promise you one thing. If the US(and the West) ever touches Mecca like that the whole world will be engulfed in war. Moderates like me will take the fight to you in a way you've never seen before. Moderates like me will make sure you will never be able to walk on this earth in safety. Moderates like me who fight extremism on a daily basis will make sure that the extremists will look like innocent puppies in your eyes.

That you even can consider this option makes me furious. That you will allow a madman to make you start WWIII and that will lead to Yaum Al-Qiyâmah makes me furious. That you even consider this shows that you are no better than OBL.

Von, let's not forget that it is not the "U.S." that is hypothetically nuking your holy site any more than it's Muslims committing terrorism. Let's not forget that of the two sides that are arguing in here, I haven't seen moderates represented very well in this thread. I understand your angry, but with that statement, you just became what you hate by saying you would direct your anger at all America instead of the people responsible. Do you really think we could stop a hawkish president from doing whatever he wants with that nuke?

Angry people on both sides who keep picking up bigger sticks just ensure that more and more people will be caught in the middle. We have to get away from the ideology of a schoolyard fight and the need to hit back. Revenge will just get more people killed.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

"An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind."

"The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong."

"What difference does it make to the dead... whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?"

M.K. Ghandi


I'll deal with the rest of your post tomorrow. Getting late here.

If they want us all dead anyway, having "One Eye Blind" is such a terrible thing???

If forgiveness is an attribute of the strong, let Mr. Laden show some strength here!

von Wrangell, why don't you go and wrangle those azzoles into true submission?

[bikes]

and he thinks this would this help deter terrorism?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by UNTiMac

but with that statement, you just became what you hate by saying you would direct your anger at all America instead of the people responsible.

He didn't say "all America". He said "the whole world".

[Mithras]

Originally Posted by bikes

and he thinks this would this help deter terrorism?

Exactly. Nothing would get OBL excited more than the prospect of a nuke in the US, followed by the US bombing Mecca, followed by wholesale destruction of everything and everyone.

Remember: If we bomb Mecca, then the terrorists have won. You don't want them to win, do you?

[iLikebeer]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

So you are gonna destroy something that 1.5 million revere because of one lunatic and his followers. Somehow that doesn't make sense for me.

I can just promise you one thing. If the US(and the West) ever touches Mecca like that the whole world will be engulfed in war. Moderates like me will take the fight to you in a way you've never seen before. Moderates like me will make sure you will never be able to walk on this earth in safety. Moderates like me who fight extremism on a daily basis will make sure that the extremists will look like innocent puppies in your eyes.

That you even can consider this option makes me furious. That you will allow a madman to make you start WWIII and that will lead to Yaum Al-Qiyâmah makes me furious. That you even consider this shows that you are no better than OBL.

LOL, that's beautiful. You start a thread about how outrageous it is that a person would propose mass destruction of innocent Muslims and their holy sites after being asked about a hypothetical worst case scenario. Your hypothetical reaction to the hypothetical retaliatory strike to the hypothetical worth case scenario is to start world war, killing millions of other innocents. I hope you can see how hypocritical your entire point of this thread is. Context matters.

If most Muslims think like you, which I have no idea, then I'm glad we have nukes and you don't. If I had to choose between everyone on the planet dying or a lot of people and all the Muslims, ...well, I'd push for some kind of memorial to be put up in your honor after the radiation allowed it.

[UNTeMac]

I'm not a mod, but I think everyone needs to tone down the rhetoric in here. Too many people making vague threats and "better you than me" remarks... it's a little scary how far some people are willing to take it when it's only an internet debate.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by UNTiMac

I'm not a mod, but I think everyone needs to tone down the rhetoric in here. Too many people making vague threats and "better you than me" remarks... it's a little scary how far some people are willing to take it when it's only an internet debate.

No offense, but it's a good thing you aren't! This place would have NO visitors if you curtailed this level of discourse. This is pretty tame. And, as you mentioned, how bad can the discourse get if no one's safety is threatened?

I think there are people who haven't taken the threat of OBL seriously until now. However, the conservatives seemed to GET IT even in my earliest posts here.

I think there are some moderate Muslims who felt they were distanced physically and emotionally from OBL, his terrorist tactics and philosophy such that they could sit, seeming neutral observers able to peer down and pontificate on what the US was doing wrong and saying little about OBL's flaws or attacking him as strongly as they did those efforts to combat him AND THE TOTAL WoT.

I said early on that this fundamental terrorism WAS a problem for the moderate muslims and it would be so increasingly as time went on. That because it would be THEY who would have much to lose, so it would behoove THEM to do something about OBL and come out against terrorism like their lives depended on it.

From the cool, detached and antagonistic responses from many of the muslims here I got the idea that they didn't really see or feel this whole thing would really impact THEIR lives.

Now, I get the feeling that they get it.

It's about time they joined us (in real heartfelt sentiment, at least) in this WoT rather than being smug and criticizing everything we did. Hey, and you liberals might want to pay attention to what's going on here, too.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by UNTiMac

Von, let's not forget that it is not the "U.S." that is hypothetically nuking your holy site any more than it's Muslims committing terrorism. Let's not forget that of the two sides that are arguing in here, I haven't seen moderates represented very well in this thread. I understand your angry, but with that statement, you just became what you hate by saying you would direct your anger at all America instead of the people responsible. Do you really think we could stop a hawkish president from doing whatever he wants with that nuke?

Angry people on both sides who keep picking up bigger sticks just ensure that more and more people will be caught in the middle. We have to get away from the ideology of a schoolyard fight and the need to hit back. Revenge will just get more people killed.

Take a look at his post:

Originally Posted by von Wrangell
So you are gonna destroy something that 1.5 million revere because of one lunatic and his followers. Somehow that doesn't make sense for me.

I can just promise you one thing. If the US(and the West) ever touches Mecca like that the whole world will be engulfed in war. Moderates like me will take the fight to you in a way you've never seen before. Moderates like me will make sure you will never be able to walk on this earth in safety. Moderates like me who fight extremism on a daily basis will make sure that the extremists will look like innocent puppies in your eyes.

That you even can consider this option makes me furious. That you will allow a madman to make you start WWIII and that will lead to Yaum Al-Qiyâmah makes me furious. That you even consider this shows that you are no better than OBL.

Doesn't his anger, frustration and indignation sorta mirror our feelings since 9/11/01?

As has been said many times before, by many conservatives on these boards, 'If you guys don't take care of OBL and the threat he poses to the free world there's no telling what we might have to do or there's no way we may be able to prevent something happening that everyone will regret.'

But, I promise if you guys do your best to control YOUR madmen, we'll do our best to control OURS.

We'll be real partners for peace and these bad times will be put behind us and everything will be safe and sane for democracy and freedom to reign over the Earth. Everyone worshipping whoever and however they wish!

[malvolio]

Originally Posted by Doofy

And the Americas, I guess. The invasion of the western world by islam will, sooner or later, lead to pain all around.

(note: I have no problem with other religions in the west. But then I haven't heard of a Sikh, Hindu or Buddhist suicide bomber yet)

Suicide bombing was invented by the Hindu Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka.

[malvolio]

Originally Posted by Doofy

I believe the ideologies and existence of the cult of islam to be evil, yes. I don't believe that all of the people who follow it are evil - most of them are simply misguided.

Cult of Islam? Stunning how ignorant you are.
Islam basically is Christianity without the silly stuff like virgin birth, a man/god and the Holy Trinity.
I'm a Buddhist myself, and I share Joseph Campbell's criticism that the Western religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) confuse mythology with history. But of the three, Islam is definitely the most consistent and coherent.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by mojo2

2) If these OBL "love notes" don't exist, then why are you getting upset?
If the first condition is not true nor is likely to be true, then the proposed result is a moot point.

If a 600 lb. sow sprouts feathered wings and flies to the Fox News studio and in a human voice demands fair treatment for pigs then I am going to declare war on pigs and begin tossing hand grenades and molotov cocktails at pig farms.

The first condition is unlikely, so pig farmers can sleep soundly tonite (and every night) because a 600 lb sow would never fly to Fox News. More likely the BBC.

Again, you make absolutely no sense at all.

Wouldn't it be funny if OBL wanted to show the world he was serious and decided to nuke a country that was making noises about becoming closer to the US, a place where a really small nuke wouldn't kill all THAT many people, but it would get the message across to EVERYONE.

What if that place were Raykeevic?

Hey, OBL don't care about no body. Especially MODERATE Muslims!

WOW! Just think of the Tsunami that would hit the US with all those icebergs on Greenland suddenly dropping into the Atlantic from the heat of the explosion. It could get nasty on the East Coast.

Yeah, it would be "funny". It's really "funny" and something to joke about. Especially as there is a very good possibility that it might happen.

It's almost as funny as when people where warning the US about a possible large scale attack pre-9/11. Wasn't that funny?