[Laminar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Here is a general rap newbie question: what is innovative about any rap/hip hop music in comparison to the music that has already been put out there?

What's innovative about any new music within a genre with respect to its existing music?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

What's innovative about any new music within a genre with respect to its existing music?

Since I've studied jazz history, and some classical music history (and the music coming out of this until around the 1980s) I could answer this in a semi-scholarly way and make a sound argument here if given an example I could work with. I was wondering if the same could be said for various rap/hip hop artists...

[- - e r i k - -]

While Tupac and Biggie were geniuses of rap, Dr. Dre and Kanye are geniuses of production.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I was wondering if the same could be said for various rap/hip hop artists...

Yes.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

While Tupac and Biggie were geniuses of rap, Dr. Dre and Kanye are geniuses of production.

Perhaps, but many might say that production needs to be treated separately from musical analysis. For starters, musicians haven't been terribly conscious of their production (as I think you are using this word) for very long. Beethoven didn't have strobe lights and fireworks

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Yes.

So, how would you do this for Kanye, to use him as an example?

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Here is a general rap newbie question: what is innovative about any rap/hip hop music in comparison to the music that has already been put out there?

Listen to Public Enemy or Wu Tang Clan. Its hard for me to explain, but there was an element of chaos, abrasive sounds, catchy beats of course, and alot of energy on the mic. Kanye is RZA, with less creativity and talent. He is very overrated, (even if he made those beats and wrote those rhymes)

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Perhaps, but many might say that production needs to be treated separately from musical analysis. For starters, musicians haven't been terribly conscious of their production (as I think you are using this word) for very long. Beethoven didn't have strobe lights and fireworks

Production, meaning, making beats and getting rappers to be on the album... Creating a theme or feel for an album, or just making a bunch of singles.. thats the producers job... Dr Dre hasnt put out a cohesive album since The Chronic in 1992(3?), but he is a great beat maker. Kanye is NOT on Dr Dres level. He is behind the likes of Pete Rock, RZA, Dr Dre, Timbaland, DJ Premiere and maybe a few others.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by TheWOAT 

Dr Dre hasnt put out a cohesive album since The Chronic in 1992(3?), but he is a great beat maker.

(Chronic) 2001?

[IceEnclosure]

Buncha haters hatin' on Kanye! Imagine!

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

(Chronic) 2001?

NOPE. The Chronic which came out around 1992 was the last cohesive album Dre produced.. in my opinion. Chronic 2001 was very repetitive, in fact about 8 songs had the same drum sequence. That album had the feel of a mixtape or compilation.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by TheWOAT 

Production, meaning, making beats and getting rappers to be on the album... Creating a theme or feel for an album, or just making a bunch of singles.. thats the producers job... Dr Dre hasnt put out a cohesive album since The Chronic in 1992(3?), but he is a great beat maker. Kanye is NOT on Dr Dres level. He is behind the likes of Pete Rock, RZA, Dr Dre, Timbaland, DJ Premiere and maybe a few others.

Fair enough, but this is more marketing and engineering than music making in its purest form. I don't keep track of who the great album producers are, so I won't dispute this. I started this line of questioning in reference to Kanye's alleged musical genius.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by TheWOAT 

NOPE. The Chronic which came out around 1992 was the last cohesive album Dre produced.. in my opinion. Chronic 2001 was very repetitive, in fact about 8 songs had the same drum sequence. That album had the feel of a mixtape or compilation.

In your opinion yes. Although, not AS cohesive as The Chronic, it had enough anthems on it to make up for it. In my opinion of course (also most reviewers).

[Nodnarb]

Supposedly Dre is making Detox, should be his last album. Either way Kanye isn't on his level. Just because Dre stepped back from rapping as much and moved more into the producer role doesn't mean he raps any worse. He is still the same Dre from NWA, The Chronic, and 2001 (even if people may not like that as much). He is extremely revered in the rap community and recognized as one of the pioneers of modern rap as well as one of the most talented producers.

Once again, Kanye isn't even close to any of that.

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

In your opinion yes. Although, not AS cohesive as The Chronic, it had enough anthems on it to make up for it. In my opinion of course (also most reviewers).

Yes, it had alot of singles... about 10 songs were on the radio from that album alone. but it was still a compilation album, and I wouldnt call it a great album.. Oh yeah, Im also assuming Dre made those beats (HUGE assumption).

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by Nodnarb 

Supposedly Dre is making Detox, should be his last album. Either way Kanye isn't on his level. Just because Dre stepped back from rapping as much and moved more into the producer role doesn't mean he raps any worse. He is still the same Dre from NWA, The Chronic, and 2001 (even if people may not like that as much). He is extremely revered in the rap community and recognized as one of the pioneers of modern rap as well as one of the most talented producers.

Once again, Kanye isn't even close to any of that.

LOL. Dre has been "Making" Detox for the last 3 years. It aint gonna happen.
Kanye is a better rapper than Dre, but only because he has a better ghost writer.

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Fair enough, but this is more marketing and engineering than music making in its purest form. I don't keep track of who the great album producers are, so I won't dispute this. I started this line of questioning in reference to Kanye's alleged musical genius.

I didnt give those examples as great feats of marketing or engineering, moreso for innovative sounds. But yea, Kanye isnt a musical genius.. I mean, Stevie Wonder and Kanye in the same sentence? please.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by TheWOAT 

I didnt give those examples as great feats of marketing or engineering, moreso for innovative sounds. But yea, Kanye isnt a musical genius.. I mean, Stevie Wonder and Kanye in the same sentence? please.

I'll give you Stevie Wonder though!

[besson3c]

I was hoping somebody would ask me about a particular jazz artist and his/her innovation

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

While I dislike Kanye's opinions and what his mother brainwashed him with. I am saddened that this happened to her. Or that it happens to anyone.

Being vain can be one's downfall. Hopefully this will make others second guess before they go under the knife.

Surgery isn't like playing with Mr Potato Head.

Wadaya think, Heaven or Hell?

Do black people go to Heaven?

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I was hoping somebody would ask me about a particular jazz artist and his/her innovation

Ok, Miles Davis.

BTW...Didnt Miles Davis say that many jazz standards come from broadway music?

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by Peter 

should be infraction worthy for people to be so nasty about someone losing their mother

Losing his mother...I thought she died?

[Peter]

...

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by TheWOAT 

Ok, Miles Davis.

BTW...Didnt Miles Davis say that many jazz standards come from broadway music?

He may have said that, but that isn't a terribly profound or controversial statement, it is a well known fact... For example, many Gershwin tunes (e.g. "I Got Rhythm" came from Guys and Dolls, and there are literally hundreds of tunes based on I Got Rhythm including the theme to the Flinstones).

Miles Davis...

Miles played alongside Charlie Parker during Bebop's heyday, but is not often attributed as a major innovator in this style/subgenre, although an important player nonetheless.

In the 50s, Miles produced a landmark album called "The Birth of the Cool" which was one of the first widely popular albums coming out of what was later called the "Cool School", a style commonly heard along the west coast of the US. Cool jazz consisted of often larger groups, a more relaxed sound than the highly energetic and often fast tempo bebop happening on the east coast (New York), arrangements/compositions, and less chord changes. Other musicians who became well known west coasters/cool school players included Chet Baker, Gerry Mulligan, Gil Evans (as a composer), Pepper Adams, Stan Getz, etc. Miles is often considered the "inventor" of this style. While he was obviously not the sole inventor, he certainly popularized the style and was a big part of it. Other Miles Cool albums include all albums done in collaboration with Gil Evans (Miles Ahead, Sketches in Spain, and Porgy and Bess [also a broadway musical]).

Later on that decade Miles put out "Kind of Blue", which is one of the best selling jazz albums of all time. It was one of the first modal jazz albums, and if not the first, certainly the biggest splash and most popular album. Modal jazz is jazz where there are a set number of measures or vamps based on modes of the major scale. The resulting sound involves a less frequent change in key, more impressionistic (yet tonal) improvisation, and solos generally based on a set scale without the cadences (ii V) chord progressions in other forms of jazz during that time.

Following this period, Miles was one of the first jazz musicians to bring rock and roll/electric instruments and sounds into jazz, a style that later became known as Fusion. "Bitches Brew" is to this date one of the most important and best selling Jazz Fusion albums of all time. Miles' move into Fusion was seen as controversial by many jazz purists at the time, notably Wynton Marsalis. Miles died in the early 90s playing Fusion, one of his last concerts (if not the last concert, I can't recall) was in Montreal where he was covering some Michael Jackson tunes. This is up on YouTube.

The other important thing about Miles was that his bands were always breeding grounds for jazz stars in the making. It is very difficult to come up with somebody who played in one of Miles' bands that didn't end up being a very huge name in jazz. Miles put a lot of musicians in the spotlight, including:

- Gil Evans
- Gerry Mulligan
- John Coltrane
- Cannonball Adderly
- Bill Evans
- Tony Williams
- Wayne Shorter
- John Scofield
- Keith Jarret
- Herbie Hancock
- Ron Carter
- Chick Corea


Edit: forgot to add - Miles also really developed the harmon muted trumpet sound as well as the straight trumpet sound with no vibrato. When people think of this sound today, they usually draw from what Miles did with this mute.

[besson3c]

Here are some YouTube videos of Miles from each of these aforementioned periods...

Miles with the Gil Evans big band (cool school):

YouTube - Miles Davis & Gil Evans 1959

Miles playing a song from Kind of Blue (modal jazz):

YouTube - Miles Davis & John Coltrane- SO WHAT

Human Nature (fusion), I think this is a Michael Jackson song - Miles in harmon mute.

YouTube - Miles Davis - Human Nature

[TheWOAT]

And all this time I thought you only knew about ointment.

I have "Bitches Brew" in my car stereo and play it alot. Easily one of my favorite albums, ever.

Youtube has some BBrew sessions, most of it is way out there.

Anyways, I brought up that "statement" because hiphop catches alot flack for its sampling, but there isnt a genre that isnt heavy into remakes, tributes, and "interpretations" of originals. Anyways, would you say Miles Davis was a genius?

[besson3c]

One more video... Speaking of former musicians of Miles', perhaps the most commercial successful today is John Scofield.

Here is a pretty neat video of him rehearsing with this band in the studio and talking about his album:

YouTube - John Scofield bonus video Bump CD

The run through of "Blackout" is about half way through this clip... The final take was different than this in several ways, but this clip is kind of an interesting insight into the process of putting together an album, particularly the manner in which he explains what he wants for this track to the rest of the band.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by TheWOAT 

And all this time I thought you only knew about ointment.

I have "Bitches Brew" in my car stereo and play it alot. Easily one of my favorite albums, ever.

Youtube has some BBrew sessions, most of it is way out there.

Anyways, I brought up that "statement" because hiphop catches alot flack for its sampling, but there isnt a genre that isnt heavy into remakes, tributes, and "interpretations" of originals. Anyways, would you say Miles Davis was a genius?

Definitely a genius. Him, Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong, John Coltrane, and Charlie Parker were among the most important musicians in jazz, and if you study music history you can see exactly where Blues, R&B, and all other forms that came out of that forked away from jazz, and you can follow this path all the way up to the 1990s or so while it is still clear. There is a lot of overlap. Quincy Jones who produced Michael Jackson's Thriller album was a jazz trumpet player, he also worked with and wrote stuff for Ray Charles, all of that stuff was very much jazz influenced. Stevie Wonder is also sort of connected to Ray Charles, in that same general camp.... Miles was a very important part of this lineage.

I also forgot to mention that Miles was also a part of free form jazz playing, which Bitches Brew definitely is at times...

[TheWOAT]

Thanks for the info.

I think its settled that Kanye is not a musical genius.

[besson3c]

TheWoat: you got me watching YouTube videos now, checking out some Bitches Brew... You were asking about broadway songs and jazz. One of John Coltrane's hits was My Favorite Things, which came from the Sound of Music:

YouTube - John Coltrane -' My Favourite Things'

Great performance!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Say what you want about his opinions and behaviour. The man is a musical genius.

I would say that was an over-statement.

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Don't let your own prejudices in the way.

What the..

Is Michael Jackson not a musical genius for dealing in pop? Prince not one for dealing with funk?

MJ has musical talent. Buy for the most part he is a performer. Now Prince, Prince is a musical genius.

When Kanye can put out a record, and actually PLAY every instrument on said record (not sample them) then come back to us. Prince has done the latter.

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

Like you mock "stupid" people? Real class.

What are you doing now?

Originally Posted by besson3c 

So, are we supposed to feel remorse for Kanye's mom passing because she is a mom (in which case anybody else's mom dying would be equally as sad), or because she is a celebrity mom? If the latter, include me in the "don't give a rat's ass" crowd...

Third time I've agreed with besson this week. :o

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

Wadaya think, Heaven or Hell?

I would say that wasn't up to me. But up to the person that died.

Do black people go to Heaven?

What the hell. Where did this come from? As if I have EVER shown any signs of racism in this forum.

That was out of line a bit don't you think?