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Canada Plans Draft-Dodger Monument
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dcolton
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Sep 28, 2004, 10:31 AM
 
Outrageous!


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132971,00.html

NELSON, British Columbia � After burning their draft cards during the Vietnam War, tens of thousands of Americans avoided jail by fleeing to Canada.

Many settled in the small town of Nelson, British Columbia (search), just across the Washington state border. Now, 30 years later, the mayor of Nelson and some other Canadians are planning to honor the draft dodgers with a two-day festival and a larger-than-life monument depicting a Canadian helping two scared American men.

Though the festival and statue unveiling are still two years away, the war of words is just beginning.

Veterans of Foreign Wars (search) leaders are outraged by the monument, as are others in the United States who see the plan as a slap in the face. Some have written to Nelson officials to say they�ll never visit the town again.

The Canadian government did nothing to discourage Americans from heading north of the border so many years ago. In fact, then Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau (search) rolled out the red carpet, saying the draft dodgers had his complete sympathy.
:
     
Nicko
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Sep 28, 2004, 11:17 AM
 
Nelson BC is a nice town, lots of fresh air.
     
Millennium
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Sep 28, 2004, 12:26 PM
 
While I suppose it's the prerogative of the people of Nelson, this really is a serious insult. Not evil, per se, but exceedingly rude.
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BlueSky
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Sep 28, 2004, 12:27 PM
 
A salute to draft dodgers everywhere and a good idea.
( Last edited by Bluesky; Sep 28, 2004 at 12:37 PM. )
     
Spheric Harlot
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Sep 28, 2004, 12:32 PM
 
<derail>
Good thing Bush opted for the National Guard, else his name might be on the monument.
</derail>
     
Shaddim
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Sep 28, 2004, 12:57 PM
 
Doesn't matter to me, they were (and are) cowards. I'm glad they're gone.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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dcolton  (op)
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Sep 28, 2004, 01:04 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
Doesn't matter to me, they were (and are) cowards. I'm glad they're gone.
A great testament to the great white north
     
DBursey
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Sep 28, 2004, 01:20 PM
 
As you provide 'great testament' to anyone desperately looking to create dirt where none exists. Private citizens in this situation do not act on behalf of their government, nor do they represent any broad constituency. This is not 'Canada' nor is it even Nelson, BC, for that matter, as anyone with a brain and a clicky finger can discern for themselves:

From the official City of Nelson site:

RE: PROPOSAL FOR A MONUMENT TO WAR RESISTORS

The City of Nelson has not been approached to take an official position with respect to a monument to War Resistors. City Council has not been asked to support it, to fund it, or to provide a location. The proposal is the idea of a group of individuals called "Our Way Home". No City official, including the Mayor is any way associated with this group.
Any opinions that have been expressed on this proposal are purely the opinions of the individuals making them.
The City of Nelson sincerely regrets any anxiety or misunderstanding that has occurred as a result of this issue.
Any more dirt in that satchel of yours dcolton?
     
dcolton  (op)
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Sep 28, 2004, 01:23 PM
 
Originally posted by DBursey:
As you provide 'great testament' to anyone desperately looking to create dirt where none exists. Private citizens in this situation do not act on behalf of their government, nor do they represent any broad constituency. This is not 'Canada' nor is it even Nelson, BC, for that matter, as anyone with a brain and a clicky finger can discern for themselves:

From the official City of Nelson site:



Any more dirt in that satchel of yours dcolton?
What's the difference? A group of canadians want to erect a memorial to cowards. Cowards!
     
OldManMac
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Sep 28, 2004, 01:24 PM
 
nm
Why is there always money for war, but none for education?
     
dcolton  (op)
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Sep 28, 2004, 01:25 PM
 
Originally posted by KarlG:
nm
nm?

You were in nam weren't you Karl? What do you think about this?
     
Scientist
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Sep 28, 2004, 01:28 PM
 
Why not honor the men who had the balls to resist slavery and murder?
Is it not reasonable to anticipate that our understanding of the human mind would be aided greatly by knowing the purpose for which it was designed?
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Millennium
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Sep 28, 2004, 01:31 PM
 
So what is this "Our Way Home" group anyway? What do they stand for, other (apparently) than running away from a bad law rather than fighting to change it?

Not fighting to change the law is the only cowardice that those who fled are guilty of, but it is a grave cowardice indeed, and certainly not worthy of being honored.
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PacHead
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Sep 28, 2004, 01:35 PM
 
Absolutely digusting and sickening. Nice neighbors we have.

Should Americans erect a statue of Marc Lepine ?
     
DBursey
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Sep 28, 2004, 01:36 PM
 
The difference is as clear as the nose on your face! Your post implied that plans for the memorial had some level of government support. This is clearly not the case, and further there is no broad support for such a monument. You created with your implication a 'Canadian' strawman upon which to vent your frustrations.
     
DBursey
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Sep 28, 2004, 01:38 PM
 
Pachead, do you bother to actually read anyone's post other than your own?
     
PacHead
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Sep 28, 2004, 01:47 PM
 
Originally posted by DBursey:
Pachead, do you bother to actually read anyone's post other than your own?
As for reading other people's posts, it depends whose.

You said it's not the city, but that's what your very own media says:

Proposed monument
The City of Nelson had announced earlier this month it would erect a bronze monument and hold a two-day festival in July 2006 in tribute to the war resisters.


http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/ser...nelson20040924
     
PacHead
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Sep 28, 2004, 01:50 PM
 
It's also good that about half of the cowards decided to stay in Canada. Less cowards for us, more for Canada.

Many of them went back to the U.S. after being granted amnesty by President Jimmy Carter in 1977, but the 1986 census shows that about half of them stayed in Canada
     
Shaddim
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Sep 28, 2004, 01:51 PM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
It's also good that about half of the cowards decided to stay in Canada. Less cowards for us, more for Canada.

Many of them went back to the U.S. after being granted amnesty by President Jimmy Carter in 1977, but the 1986 census shows that about half of them stayed in Canada
Yeah, I'm quite grateful to Canada for taking those losers off our hands.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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DBursey
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Sep 28, 2004, 01:52 PM
 
From the story you linked:
The City of Nelson has issued a statement distancing itself from the controversy, saying it "regrets any anxiety or misunderstanding that has occurred as a result of this issue."
Reading comprehension ... an invaluable tool!
     
PacHead
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Sep 28, 2004, 01:54 PM
 
Originally posted by DBursey:
From the story you linked:

Reading comprehension ... an invaluable tool!
So they regret their decision, because it has blown up now ? Another sign of weakness.
     
Wiskedjak
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Sep 28, 2004, 01:56 PM
 
I don't see what the issue is here. Is it cowardly to refuse to participate in a pointless war? Is it Canada's fault that we were willing to recognize the rights and freedoms of American citizens at a time when the US was not?

By the way, the city of Nelson is planning the monument, not the sovereign nation of Canada nor the province of British Columbia.
     
DBursey
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Sep 28, 2004, 01:59 PM
 
Pachead, I don't understand what you're trying to say. Who regrets what decision exactly?

More on this (Source - CBC online):

B.C. activists plan to erect a bronze sculpture honouring draft dodgers, four decades after Americans opposed to the Vietnam War sought refuge in Canada.

The memorial, created by artists in Nelson, B.C., ties into a two-day celebration planned for July 2006 that pays tribute to as many as 125,000 Americans who fled to Canada between 1964 and 1977.

LINKS: Seeking Sanctuary: Draft Dodgers

"This will mark the courageous legacy of Vietnam War resisters and the Canadians who helped them resettle in this country during that tumultuous era," Isaac Romano, the director of the Our Way Home festival told a news conference in Nelson Tuesday.

The event will honour people who came to Canada and resisted war efforts, from burning their draft cards during the Vietnam War to leaving the army to protest the war in Iraq, Romano said.

Musicians � many of who participated in the anti-war movement � will play at the festival, scheduled for July 8-9, 2006. Historians and critics of U.S. foreign policy will speak and a documentary about American war resisters by director Michelle Mason will be screened.

Estimates of the number of Americans who came to Canada because they opposed the Vietnam War range from 50,000 to 125,000.

They sought refuge in Canada between 1964 and 1977 in one of the biggest political exoduses in U.S. history.

The first wave of Vietnam era immigrants, called "draft dodgers," was largely middle class and educated.

Deserters from the army came later, mostly with little education or money.

Many of the war resisters settled in British Columbia, especially in the Gulf Islands, the Sunshine Coast and the West Kootenay, the B.C. Interior region where Nelson is located.

Thousands returned south after President Jimmy Carter granted them amnesty in 1977, but the 1986 census indicated that half stayed in Canada.


     
PacHead
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Sep 28, 2004, 01:59 PM
 
Originally posted by Wiskedjak:


By the way, the city of Nelson is planning the monument, not the sovereign nation of Canada nor the province of British Columbia.
And New York City should come up with their own "monument" to honor Canadians, not the state of New York, and not the sovereign nation of the USA.
     
dcolton  (op)
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:01 PM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
And New York City should come up with their own "monument" to honor Canadians, not the state of New York, and not the sovereign nation of the USA.
Honor them for what...harboring terrorists?
     
PacHead
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:04 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
Honor them for what...harboring terrorists?
I'm sure we can think of something bad they have done. The harboring terrorists statue would be a good suggestion.
     
DBursey
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:07 PM
 
And New York City should come up with their own "monument" to honor Canadians, not the state of New York, and not the sovereign nation of the USA.
Would those be the dozens of Canadians who died in 9/11, the tens of thousands of Canadian volunteers who went to NYC in its immediate aftermath, or those who risked their lives to shelter civilian airliners turned away from landing in the US?

Perhaps you're hoping for a tribute to the more than 1,200 Canadian hydro crews currently in Florida working 16 hour shifts 7 days a week in an effort to help hurricane victims? They're exhausted, and would certainly appreciate the recognition of your fellow citizens, but they're there because it's the right thing to do.

Not much cowardice being celebrated there.
     
Wiskedjak
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:08 PM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
And New York City should come up with their own "monument" to honor Canadians, not the state of New York, and not the sovereign nation of the USA.
Shrug ... what do I care what New York city does? If they want to honour Canadians for something, then more power to them.
     
dcolton  (op)
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:09 PM
 
Originally posted by DBursey:
Would those be the dozens of Canadians who died in 9/11, the tens of thousands of Canadian volunteers who went to NYC in its immediate aftermath, or those who risked their lives to shelter civilian airliners turned away from landing in the US?

Perhaps you're hoping for a tribute to the more than 1,200 Canadian hydro crews currently in Florida working 16 hour shifts 7 days a week in an effort to help hurricane victims? They're exhausted and will appreciate the recognition from your fellow citizensm, but they're there because it's the right thing to do.

Not much cowardice being celebrated there.
Nope, because we are always there for you.
     
PacHead
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:10 PM
 
Originally posted by DBursey:
Would those be the dozens of Canadians who died in 9/11, the tens of thousands of Canadian volunteers who went to NYC in its immediate aftermath, or those who risked their lives to shelter civilian airliners turned away from landing in the US?

Perhaps you're hoping for a tribute to the more than 1,200 Canadian hydro crews currently in Florida working 16 hour shifts 7 days a week in an effort to help hurricane victims? They're exhausted and will appreciate the recognition from your fellow citizensm, but they're there because it's the right thing to do.

Not much cowardice being celebrated there.
Then how about you guys return the current cowards who fled to your country to flee their current service ? I remember at least 2 cowards. Vietnam was one issue, the current war is completely different.
     
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:11 PM
 
EVERYONE'S missing the point in this thread. The POINT is that evading the draft was ILLEGAL and this monument will be raised to praise Americans that BROKE THE LAW. Talk about cowardice, if the dodgers really had the nads to stand up for what they "believed in," they wouldn't have run to Canada -- they would have gone kicking and screaming in protest of the war as the Government hauled them into jail.

But I digress...the issue is that this "monument" will pat law-breakers on the back. Next, we need a monument to all the speeders, people that evade paying taxes, murderers, molesters, etc.

In a word: disgusting.

Maury
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That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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Wiskedjak
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:11 PM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
Then how about you guys return the current cowards who fled to your country to flee their current service ? I remember at least 2 cowards. Vietnam was one issue, the current war is completely different.
Why? Canada has a long history of offering refuge to refugees from all over the world.
     
PacHead
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:12 PM
 
Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Why? Canada has a long history of offering refuge to refugees from all over the world.
You mean criminals. Refugees my foot.
     
DBursey
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:13 PM
 
Nope, because we are always there for you.
Yes, you certainly were there to blame us for the actions of your 19 Saudi and Egyptian friends whom you gladly taught to fly planes.

America shelters its own terrorists, my friend. America creates its own blowback. Get out of bed with your Wahabbist friends, dcolton. America's mattress is stained with Saudi oil.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:16 PM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
I'm sure we can think of something bad they have done. The harboring terrorists statue would be a good suggestion.
I was thinking that Fort McHenry was your monument. But between the battle of Baltimore, and burning the White House down, I still think that zigzag is right: Alanis Morrisette is the worst thing that Canada has ever done to America.
     
macvillage.net
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:23 PM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
<derail>
Good thing Bush opted for the National Guard, else his name might be on the monument.
</derail>
Unless his ass landed in vietnam... that's dodging.
     
dcolton  (op)
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:27 PM
 
Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Unless his ass landed in vietnam... that's dodging.
macvillages shortest post ever!

     
BlueSky
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:29 PM
 
Originally posted by RAILhead:
EVERYONE'S missing the point in this thread. The POINT is that evading the draft was ILLEGAL and this monument will be raised to praise Americans that BROKE THE LAW. Talk about cowardice, if the dodgers really had the nads to stand up for what they "believed in," they wouldn't have run to Canada -- they would have gone kicking and screaming in protest of the war as the Government hauled them into jail.
In other words, they should have "taken their punishment like a man"?

Why should they accept punishment when a lot of them didn't believe they were doing anything wrong, at least in a moral sense?

There's nothing inherently noble about donning a uniform and killing people because your government tells you to do so. There are times when defending your country is appropriate and called for, and the Viet Nam war was NOT one of those times.
     
MindFad
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:36 PM
 
Sounds like a great idea. Go, Nelson.
     
PacHead
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:36 PM
 
Originally posted by Bluesky:
In other words, they should have "taken their punishment like a man"?

Why should they accept punishment when a lot of them didn't believe they were doing anything wrong, at least in a moral sense?

There's nothing inherently noble about donning a uniform and killing people because your government tells you to do so. There are times when defending your country is appropriate and called for, and the Viet Nam war was NOT one of those times.
What about NOW ?
     
RAILhead
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:37 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
... I still think that zigzag is right: Alanis Morrisette is the worst thing that Canada has ever done to America.
I don't know...I've seen in her in concert before (before she became and "artistic" sellout) and I was close enough to to have her sweat fall on me (and I got some fruit from her). Even after all these years, I still enjoy seeing this poster every once in a while:





Maury
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
my bandmy web sitemy guitar effectsmy photosfacebookbrightpoint
     
dcolton  (op)
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:37 PM
 
Originally posted by Bluesky:
In other words, they should have "taken their punishment like a man"?

Why should they accept punishment when a lot of them didn't believe they were doing anything wrong, at least in a moral sense?

There's nothing inherently noble about donning a uniform and killing people because your government tells you to do so. There are times when defending your country is appropriate and called for, and the Viet Nam war was NOT one of those times.
There is a process for objectors. These people ran away from not only their duty as a citizen, but from due process as well
     
Wiskedjak
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:39 PM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
You mean criminals. Refugees my foot.
ref�u�gee
One who flees in search of refuge, as in times of war, political oppression, or religious persecution.
     
BlueSky
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:41 PM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
What about NOW ?
Go start another thread about "NOW" and maybe I'll post. This thread is about something else.
     
PacHead
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:44 PM
 
Originally posted by Bluesky:
Go start another thread about "NOW" and maybe I'll post. This thread is about something else.
No it's not. Read the article and educate yourself better. The festival they're planning is to celebrate dodgers from Vietnam and cowards who fled from the current Iraq war.

The event will honour people who came to Canada and resisted war efforts, from burning their draft cards during the Vietnam War to leaving the army to protest the war in Iraq, Romano said.
     
deedar
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:45 PM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
What about NOW ?
If you mean Iraq, this is also NOT one of those times.
     
PacHead
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:46 PM
 
Originally posted by deedar:
If you mean Iraq, this is also NOT one of those times.
Yes, that's why you're voting for Kerry. People who believe otherwise will vote for the other dude.
     
Shaddim
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:46 PM
 
Originally posted by Bluesky:
In other words, they should have "taken their punishment like a man"?

Why should they accept punishment when a lot of them didn't believe they were doing anything wrong, at least in a moral sense?

There's nothing inherently noble about donning a uniform and killing people because your government tells you to do so. There are times when defending your country is appropriate and called for, and the Viet Nam war was NOT one of those times.
No, they should have stood up and protested, tried to change the situation, not ran away like cowards. My neighbor protested, refused to go, and landed in jail for several months. At any time he could have changed his mind and went into the military. They even offered him a non-combat MOS stateside, but he refused. He wrote letters, gave interviews, and when he was released he went and protested in DC.

I don't agree with his position on many things, but that took guts and I respect him for it... I'd even go as far as to call him a patriot.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
RAILhead
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:53 PM
 
Originally posted by Bluesky:
In other words, they should have "taken their punishment like a man"?

Why should they accept punishment when a lot of them didn't believe they were doing anything wrong, at least in a moral sense?

There's nothing inherently noble about donning a uniform and killing people because your government tells you to do so. There are times when defending your country is appropriate and called for, and the Viet Nam war was NOT one of those times.
You aren't really that dense, are you? IT WAS AGAINST THE LAW. If I speed and get caught, I pay a fine because I BROKE THE LAW. If I carry a handgun into a Post Office -- even though I have a conceal and carry license -- and get caught, I pay a fine (among other things) because I BROKE THE LAW.

They should "accept" punishment because THEY BROKE THE LAW. And the fact of the matter is, they don't have the luxury or "accepting" it or not, because THAT WAS THE LAW.

Period.

PERIOD.

There's no debating it.



Maury
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
my bandmy web sitemy guitar effectsmy photosfacebookbrightpoint
     
zigzag
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:53 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I was thinking that Fort McHenry was your monument. But between the battle of Baltimore, and burning the White House down, I still think that zigzag is right: Alanis Morrisette is the worst thing that Canada has ever done to America.
Alanis is OK - the one that I can't bear is Celine Dion. Her music haunts me, but for all the wrong reasons.
     
 
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