[macfantn]

I am considering a new car next year, definiitely one of these. I really like the styling of the bmw but there are far too many on the road. I love the A4 also which isn't seen as much, and I'm not sure about the reliability of the C series. I haven't driven the A4 or the C series yet. Which car would be the most fun to drive? Any thoughts or opinions greatly appreciated.

[macroy]

I've never driven a C series...and I have no desire to.
If driving a car that you see on the road a lot is something you don't want to do, then you want to avoid all of them. These are entry level sedans/coupes for the three most popular luxury class cars - so you'll naturally be in a large group.

As for the most fun - I'd have to say the 3-series. Out of the three, BMW probably pays the most attention to handling of their cars (every model is build to have as close to a 50/50 weight ratio). Many think Audi has the best interior.... but the A4's engine is situated in front of the front axle... so its extremely nose heavy.

Now, if you are looking at the entry level models (325, 2.0, etc..) - I'd highly encourage you to look at the Japanese counterparts. I think the European models are way overpriced for the power you get (and one can argue the same for the higher models as well). The G35 is a great car that will cost you about 7K less than a 335 sedan (similarly equipped).

As a previous BMW owner, one thing you want to consider is their 4 year/40K maintenance plan.... basically covers everything aside from Tires... as long as it wasn't abused. This included wipers, break pads etc....

Just my .02 of course. But for me - RS4 > M3 > 335 Coupe > S4 Avant > the rest.
RS4 only because its so limited.... not too many 420HP family movers out there with AWD.

[mindwaves]

Cadillac CTS

[Sealobo]

fun to drive? it will always be the 3er within the same price range, german.

[Sealobo]

by the way, it's the C-class and the 3 series... =P

[turboSPE]

3 is most fun, C is most luxurious. A4 is somewhere inbetween the two, but has horrible resale. I have a 3 and love it. I drove a new C350 Sport a couple of weeks ago, and it wasn't too bad (I still prefer the 3 though). What do you mean by "reliability?" I don't think any of the major brands today would have "reliability" issues.

turboSPE

[Mastrap]

BMW 3 series is a realtor's car. Mercs are for old men.
Audi, in a heartbeat.

[macintologist]

Mercs are for taxi drivers, BMWs are for drug dealers, Audis are for rich spoiled high schoolers/college students.

[Doofy]

3-Series for fun.

C-Class if you're a bit of a Hyacinth.

A4 if you want to feel like the car is driving itself.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by Sealobo 

fun to drive? it will always be the 3er within the same price range, german.

Jawoll! Insurance might be higher though (at least it is here )...

PB.

[Jens Peter]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

Audi, in a heartbeat.

That would be my choice too

[macfantn]

I am leaning toward the Audi, just gotta test drive one. Are the 08s in showrooms yet?

[stevesnj]

AUDI!! the A4 was just given a face lift and is supposed to be better than ever, seeing the Audi's kick the butts of the Mercedes and BMW on the Autobahn's in Germany was impressive. If you can afford the Quottro get it, my self I'm waiting for the Turbo Diesels which should arrive next summer. The performance is equal and the fuel savings is worth the wait.


good luck

[His Dudeness]

Anyone seen the new 2008 C Class??? Sweetness, I'd have to consider that one if I were in the market.

[Cadaver]

I have a 2006 330xi. Very happy with it.

[angelmb]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

… seeing the Audi's kick the butts of the Mercedes and BMW on the Autobahn's in Germany was impressive. If you can afford the Quattro get it, my self I'm waiting for the Turbo Diesels which should arrive next summer. The performance is equal and the fuel savings is worth the wait.
good luck

Yeah, it is not like the car is the one who kicks the butts of another cars, under that rule I have saw SMART for two kicking the butts of a Ferrari…

As for Quattro being any worth… that's highly debatable.

Same goes for Diesel being on equal performance… versus what?, underpowered turbo lacking petrol engines?, nothing like a trip to old Europe to get TDI culture

If you want Diesel, get a MB Bluetec or those another german cars that kick the butts of Benzs but can't afford to develope a clean Diesel technology…

Anyway, the current trend here in Europe goes towards really small petrol engines with Turbos… something SMART has been doing since years ago.

Anyone seen the new 2008 C Class??? Sweetness, I'd have to consider that one if I were in the market.

Sure, it is damn sexy and handles like no other car german or not could dream. Albeit, don't abuse it

[jebjeb]

These days, it is very difficult to give a generic answer out of which is best in the small exec saloon/wagon class. When comparing the A4, 3 series and C class, one has to consider what spec one wants.

I currently own a S4 Avant (wagon) and have had a C32 AMG before. I have driven many versions of all three ranges so I am basing my views on that rather than just stuff I have heard or read.

Some general notes. The A4 is quite small, especially in the back and boot. I am getting rid of mine for this very reason. The 3 series is a little better but not as roomy as the C class. The 3 series has the most complete range of powertrains. Audi can make any model look like the hot one with the S-line kit.

At the bottom of the tree, I would argue that the 3 series is the more well rounded car. The 320i and d have a decent spec, and great engines.

Once you get to the higher end (but still "normal" models) they are all quite even, again though I think the BMW might just pip the rest. The 330i/d is a great car but still some issues with packaging. The new C350 sport is very good though and is probably the equal of the Beemer with handling now and certainly has a more balanced ride. I am not that attracted to the A4 though at this level.

Then there is the special end. This is where Audi (and to a lesser extent, BMW) holds an extra card. The S4 is not one of the 400bhp plus monsters and is also not priced accordingly. The 335i also has some serious pace for alright money as well. The S4 was attractive enough for me that I got one for myself. Merc doesn't have anything between the C350 and the monster end.

All three brands have their flagships, however, Audi is losing theirs. Audi only ever makes one RS model at any one time. They have stopped production of the RS4 (although they still have a few Avants coming off the line) and are moving over to the RS6 (Turboed 5L V10 from Lambo Gallardo doing 570bhp!). So they will have to fall back to the S4 for their top A4 soon. A shame as the RS4 is excellent and was the car that bought Audi back to making proper fast cars. I really enjoyed my drive in it and would have snapped one up if an auto was available as that is what I want for my main vehicle.

BMW has the new V8 M3 which is getting very good but mixed reviews. I haven't driven one yet so will reserve judgement. They will be making it as a saloon (which they didn't for the previous version) which is good but they will still not confirm that they are going to do a wagon.

Now, it looks like Merc has gone and trumped them all with the new C63. It looks like a beast. 6.3L V8, great handling and they will be producing a wagon. I have my eye on one.

I was at the fuel station the other day and saw a guy in a new M3. I popped over to say G'day and asked how the car was. He said that it was great but it wasn't his. He was testing it for Top Gear magazine. He said that he had been over in Germany with it. I bought up the C63 as I was thinking about one and he said that that is what they were doing over there, comparing the M3 to the C63. He admitted that the editor was probably going to place the M3 behind the C63! Can't wait to drive both.

So, as you can see, it all depends which model you are looking at. So enlighten us!

[EricTheRed]

Originally Posted by mindwaves 

Cadillac CTS

Now that the interior has been sorted, why not.

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by mindwaves 

Cadillac CTS

[Mastrap]

YouTube - Top Gear: Cadillac CTS

Top Gear reviewing the CTS

[Lateralus]

Too bad it's not a review of the current CTS.

Another vote for the CTS. The new model is gorgeous and the interior is superb. You owe it to yourself to at least test drive one.

[Goldfinger]

The Audi is boring, like all audis. The BMW is fugly, but the Coupé looks great. Most 3-series and A4 you see here are company cars, so there are litteraly tens of thousands of them. Whick makes them less diserable for me. The C-class is less loved as a fleetcar which makes it somewhat more rare, altough you can't call them rare at all. The new C-class looks great but the interior looks cheap and weird. Why not look at the Lexus IS? My mom is probably getting one to replace her E-class with in January. If it's really between the 3 germans then it'll be between the 3-series and C-class, I can't comment on how the new C-class drives, but I hear it's great. If the ride is as good as the BMW then I'd probably go for the Mercedes because the BMW is a lot uglier. If not, then it's probably the BMW.

[G4ME]

big clarkson fan are we Mas?

[abbaZaba]

forget what everyone has said and listen to me. you want an excellent, fun driving car?

get a manual 3 series.

nothing more can be said.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

AUDI!! the A4 was just given a face lift and is supposed to be better than ever, seeing the Audi's kick the butts of the Mercedes and BMW on the Autobahn's in Germany was impressive. If you can afford the Quottro get it, my self I'm waiting for the Turbo Diesels which should arrive next summer. The performance is equal and the fuel savings is worth the wait.

Uh what? I haven't noticed such things happen on the Autobahnen around me. Those three German makers are getting more similar with each model, so I really can't say which brand is totally, absolutely superior - from the _history_ a BMW is supposed to be a sporty car, the Mercedes to be a comfortable car and the Audi to be in between though leaning to BMW for the last years.
Quattro a.k.a. 4-wheel drive makes the car to handle safer in critical situations but of course the acceleration suffers and the car is heavier. Depending on the state you are living in, I would concentrate on other features.

All three are good cars. I'm a BMW guy myself although only for the older series E38, E39, E46 etc, before the Banglification.

PB.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger 

The BMW is fugly, but the Coupé looks great.

Hey, compared to the Bangled 7 series and 5 series, the 3 does look almost normal. Crap against his predecessor E46 of course. I like the 3 Coupé too, because it reminds me of my absolute favorite Bimmer, the 8 series.

PB.

[ajprice]

There's a new model A4 coming out soon, probably next year. Look like a cross between the current A4 and the A5 coupe. In other words it looks pretty much the same, but with techier looking lights.

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

Uh what? I haven't noticed such things happen on the Autobahnen around me.

Okay... I don't live in Germany so maybe that's why i noticed it moreso than you. Since I was very aware of my surroundings being on such a road system It is what I noticed while 'I' was there and thats what i noticed the past 2 summers i was there. I was traveling on the A4, A5, A1, A2, A29, A293...it was very fun

[OpenMyPorts]

If you've got the kind of bread to get one of these new, quit bothering with bitch cars. Get a used 1999-2003 BMW M5. They're available for around 20-25 grand. They're also much, MUCH better cars than anything you've mentioned.

[Macfreak7]

Originally Posted by OpenMyPorts 

If you've got the kind of bread to get one of these new, quit bothering with bitch cars. Get a used 1999-2003 BMW M5. They're available for around 20-25 grand. They're also much, MUCH better cars than anything you've mentioned.

Agree with this 100%
I'm thinking about trading my 330i for one of these if I can find a good deal.

However, out of the three choices I'd go with a manual 3 series with the sport package.. far too much fun.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by OpenMyPorts 

If you've got the kind of bread to get one of these new, quit bothering with bitch cars. Get a used 1999-2003 BMW M5. They're available for around 20-25 grand. They're also much, MUCH better cars than anything you've mentioned.

D00d, behave yourself. While I agree that an M5 is one of the best BMWs out there, the following costs are killing you unless you earn equally high. Cost of fuel, cost of oil, brakes. There's basically only one set of tires recommended, the catalytic converters are very expensive, BMW garages take a premium/hour to fix an M5 etc. etc.
It's already expensive to maintain a "normal" 540, but the M5 is factor ~1,75 to that.

PB.

[entrox]

Look into buying a used E-class. An almost new (1 year old) W211 is only marginally more expensive than a comparably equipped C-class, but feels like a much, much better car. Go into a dealership and see for yourself. I did exactly that and don't regret it one bit, it's a very comfortable car if you're into that kind of thing. The used car situation will probably be different from where I live, but it's worth taking a look.

[OreoCookie]

I also doubt it's even necessary: even the entry-level 320d (ditto for the C220 CDI) performs decently (0-100 km/h in 8.7 s) and it only gets better from there. I don't think it's necessary to go to such extremes to have a sweet ride.

[OpenMyPorts]

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

D00d, behave yourself. While I agree that an M5 is one of the best BMWs out there, the following costs are killing you unless you earn equally high. Cost of fuel, cost of oil, brakes. There's basically only one set of tires recommended, the catalytic converters are very expensive, BMW garages take a premium/hour to fix an M5 etc. etc.
It's already expensive to maintain a "normal" 540, but the M5 is factor ~1,75 to that.

PB.

The fuel is not much more than a regular 5 series, and I'm not sure why you brought up 'oil'. You change it at the same intervals. Brakes are huge and pricey, but because of this you'd need to change them about as often or less often than the smaller 540 pads... bigger rotors and pads= less work for the brakes in daily driving= less wear. As for the one kind of recommended tires, who cares about that? You can replace them with anything of the same size. Again, you are bringing up extremely strange and somewhat incorrect reasons to not get the M5. And catalytic converters??? Those wear out about every 300,000 miles. I'm not sure what you're worried about.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by OpenMyPorts 

As for the one kind of recommended tires, who cares about that? You can replace them with anything of the same size.

Haven't checked, but I'm betting that there's not much in that size available with the appropriate ratings.

[OpenMyPorts]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Haven't checked, but I'm betting that there's not much in that size available with the appropriate ratings.

I'm pretty sure whatever is in that size meets or exceeds those ratings. Anything that size is going to be a sporty type tire. I just checked. Front is 245/40/18. Rear is 275/35-18. Everything I can find in those sizes are Z speed rated, with AA traction.

[macroy]

Originally Posted by OpenMyPorts 

The fuel is not much more than a regular 5 series, and I'm not sure why you brought up 'oil'. You change it at the same intervals....

I'm not 100% sure about the M5's ... but if its the same as M3's, it'll cost more. I paid about $10/bottle for Castrol's 5w60... which is specifically recommended for the M3. If the M5 is the same way, you're looking at $60-$70 to change it yourself. The dealer will charge $160-$200 for an oil change. And yes, I'm sure someone will argue if that oil is really necessary... but if you're paying that much for a car, I wouldn't want to risk it to save $50 a year.

I'd get one that is still under warranty, and just extend it. I hear to go from the 4/50K to 10/100K is only like ~2K. I don't know how accurate that is. But for BMW maintenance, its well worth it as it covers just about anything.

[OpenMyPorts]

Originally Posted by macroy 

I'm not 100% sure about the M5's ... but if its the same as M3's, it'll cost more. I paid about $10/bottle for Castrol's 5w60... which is specifically recommended for the M3. If the M5 is the same way, you're looking at $60-$70 to change it yourself. The dealer will charge $160-$200 for an oil change. And yes, I'm sure someone will argue if that oil is really necessary... but if you're paying that much for a car, I wouldn't want to risk it to save $50 a year.

Strange, considering the engine oil cover calls for 5w30. I just read about it on an M5 messageboard, here:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/sho...ht=5w30&page=5

Seems BMW america suggests on oil, the M engineers suggest, another, and BMW europe suggests yet another. Meanwhile people are using 15w50 synthetic with no ill effects.

[macroy]

Originally Posted by OpenMyPorts 

Strange, considering the engine oil cover calls for 5w30. I just read about it on an M5 messageboard, here:

OIL 10w60 or 5w-30?-->Response from Mike Miller and Satch Carlson - Page 5 - The Unofficial BMW M5 Messageboard (m5board.com)

Seems BMW america suggests on oil, the M engineers suggest, another, and BMW europe suggests yet another. Meanwhile people are using 15w50 synthetic with no ill effects.

I guess that clarifies my "disclaimer" on if the M5 is the same as the M3... and I also mistyped the weight - its 10w60 for the M3's... not 5w (bevauto.com - search for Castrol TWS).

I'd follow M engineer's suggestions.... but that's just me.

More info on oil.... Interesting Reading about BMW OIL facts long - Bimmerforums - The Ultimate BMW Forum

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by OpenMyPorts 

I'm pretty sure whatever is in that size meets or exceeds those ratings. Anything that size is going to be a sporty type tire. I just checked. Front is 245/40/18. Rear is 275/35-18. Everything I can find in those sizes are Z speed rated, with AA traction.

Just checked at Tire Rack. Turns out the cheapest in that size are the best anyways (P-Zero).

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by OpenMyPorts 

The fuel is not much more than a regular 5 series, and I'm not sure why you brought up 'oil'. You change it at the same intervals. Brakes are huge and pricey, but because of this you'd need to change them about as often or less often than the smaller 540 pads... bigger rotors and pads= less work for the brakes in daily driving= less wear. As for the one kind of recommended tires, who cares about that? You can replace them with anything of the same size. Again, you are bringing up extremely strange and somewhat incorrect reasons to not get the M5. And catalytic converters??? Those wear out about every 300,000 miles. I'm not sure what you're worried about.

Do you actually know people driving a M5? I personally know two (+ another one who switched to a 330d recently). One of them is my co-worker for the last years. I know their M5s pretty well.

Fuel: Top consumption (city) for the 530i (231 hp) is 13 l/100 km, for the 540 (286 hp) it's 14-16 liter / 100km, the M5's (400 hp) is 18-20l / 100km.
Oil: M5 motors especially before facelift are known oil-burners. You can reach a consumption of 2 l / 1000 km. For the R6s it's more like 2l for 10.000km. Recommended oil 10w60, around 20 Euros per liter. Also 530i (R6) only needs 6.5 liter, 540, B10, M5 (V8) 7,5++ liter. [E60 M5 (V10): 13 liter !!!]
Motor: The M5's S62 is a high powered version of the "standard" V8 which needs to be really well maintained. Especially the pre-facelift-models blew their older VANOS (2000 €), air-flow meter (400 €) or the air accumulator (700-800 €). R6 parts and 535/540 V8 parts are much more common in the aftermarket, for M parts you almost always have to go to BMW.
Parts: Everyone with an M car knows what the "M-premium" means. My colleague pays 1000 € just to change the front brakes. Same situation with chassis parts, axles, arms etc... I mentioned the catalytic converters with good reason, the old ones are known to burn through, some 800 bucks to replace.
Tires: That's the part that keeps the car on the road, I would certainly not drive a 400 hp machine and then try to save money on the tires. The M guys I know drive the car unlimited (305 km/h !) which leaves only one tire, I think it's a Yokohama, but I'm unsure now. The P-Zero is the best tire for the limited cars (250 km/h). 1000 bucks at least and some drivers need two sets/year on the rear axle.

Again, M5s are great cars, but you have to know what it will cost you initially and later to maintain!!!

Regards
PB.

[Mastrap]

More about the M5:

BMW M5 Touring - 96
... At 18.8mpg and 361gCO2/km, the M5 Touring leaves a larger environmental footprint than a Hummer (see below)! Luckily BMW are making it increasingly easy for you to own all the refinements you would expect from the brand and be green - the new 5 Series 520d Touring (with particle filter) comes in with a WGC? rating of just 38 (CO2 136g/km).

And surprisingly:

Mini Cooper S Convertible (automatic) - 56

Given its reputation, it is surprising that a Mini should appear in this list at all - all the more so as one of its sister models, the diesel Mini Cooper D, is one of the greenest cars in this class (WGC? rating 30). This illustrates the first lesson regarding choosing a green car - model variants within a vehicle range will vary widely in their environmental performance. That said, if you want a super-mini that leaves a disproportionately large environmental footprint, this is a car for you. With CO2 emissions of 208g/km and a fuel economy of only 32.5 miles per gallon (mpg), the 1.6 litre Mini Cooper S will also help burn a hole in your pocket - the Cooper S is in the highest but one band F for road tax (£205 a year). Do the right thing - buy a Cooper D instead!