[olePigeon]

Yeah, well, now it's god damn personal. One of those f*cking fruitcakes almost killed my sister. EXACTLY what I was afraid would happen.

She kept going to a chiropractor for back and pelvis problems, despite (or perhaps in spite, I was adamantly against it) me begged and pleaded with her to see her GP first and get a referral for a orthopedist. After nearly 6 months of the bullsh*t from the chiropractor (herbs, "detoxes," colon clenses [a god damn drink made of silica!], etc.), she finally went to see her GP. Her GP immediately noticed there was a problem, and sent her to her OBGYN, from there she got an xray. Turns out it wasn't anything wrong with her spine, or her energies, or toxins, or whatever god damn f*cking bullsh*t quackery the chiropractor was feeding her, but an ectopic pregnancy. Had it gone to term and undiagnosed because the dumbass chiropractor insisting it was just alignment issues, she could have died.

She went into emergency surgery today and had the fetus removed. Thankfully she's OK now.

And this is my last chiropractic related thread, I don't think I'll post in the political/war lounge anymore. Making my last couple hairs falling out.

Sorry for the tone, but I needed to vent. Was a very stressful situation.

[OAW]

Glad your sister is doing ok olePigeon.

OAW

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Yeah, well, now it's god damn personal. One of those f*cking fruitcakes almost killed my sister. EXACTLY what I was afraid would happen.
She kept going to a chiropractor for back and pelvis problems, despite (or perhaps in spite, I was adamantly against it) me begged and pleaded with her to see her GP first and get a referral for a orthopedist. After nearly 6 months of the bullsh*t from the chiropractor (herbs, "detoxes," colon clenses [a god damn drink made of silica!], etc.), she finally went to see her GP. Her GP immediately noticed there was a problem, and sent her to her OBGYN, from there she got an xray. Turns out it wasn't anything wrong with her spine, or her energies, or toxins, or whatever god damn f*cking bullsh*t quackery the chiropractor was feeding her, but an ectopic pregnancy. Had it gone to term and undiagnosed because the dumbass chiropractor insisting it was just alignment issues, she could have died.
She went into emergency surgery today and had the fetus removed. Thankfully she's OK now.
And this is my last chiropractic related thread, I don't think I'll post in the political/war lounge anymore. Making my last couple hairs falling out.
Sorry for the tone, but I needed to vent. Was a very stressful situation.

olePigeon, I'm sorry to hear about your sister's experience. For what it's worth, I think you've done a positive thing by airing this out. First, for yourself of course because you wanted to vent, but also to make your situation known, and express your view. Who cares if people beat it up, other folks here will have had the benefit of the information. I appreciate your contribution here. Full disclosure: I'm not much for the practice either. My distaste for the practice is not as active as yours, I'll usually just give someone a bit of stink-eye at the suggestion of seeing one.

I'm personally offended that you'd render me with chiropractors and throw me out with the rest of the malcontents here in the PWL. Seriously, don't take this out on us unless it's to continue unleashing ruthlessly effective political debate.

[Waragainstsleep]

Alternative medicine is almost entirely crap. Its about time regulators stopped pussyfooting around them because of 'people's beliefs' and started imposing heavy taxes, licenses, paperwork and consequences.

[el chupacabra]

That's about how angry I was when the doctors killed my good friend who went in for a standard procedure; they made a mistake, then when they went back in to fix it they made 2 more. I's also pretty angry when they left a drill bit and sponge inside my relative. Now that I'm dieing myself, I get to deal with the medical system in all its glory on a weekly basis for the past year.

Thankfully your sister had something that was easily diagnosable with an x-ray. This might be a blessing in disguise, as in the future when she has a truly complicated illness she might make a better decision. I like my chiropractor for stretching my back and all... but I wouldn't advocate going to one for an illness. At the very least people need to "get a second opinion". I wouldn't be so hard on the chiropractor because in age of the internet where we can research everyone's experiences to help us make the best decision, ultimately the choice is ours whether we believe in conventional medicine or magic stones. It tends to be hit or miss even with the real docs.

And this is my last chiropractic related thread, I don't think I'll post in the political/war lounge anymore. Making my last couple hairs falling out.

I agree, I've gone so far as to not even read about the election, or watch the debates; and I wont be voting ever again either. And enjoy life while you can because, if, or once you get to the point where you're visiting the docs all the time, dealing with all the corruption, those last hairs will fall out.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

That's about how angry I was when the doctors killed my good friend who went in for a standard procedure; they made a mistake, then when they went back in to fix it they made 2 more. I's also pretty angry when they left a drill bit and sponge inside my relative. Now that I'm dieing myself, I get to deal with the medical system in all its glory on a weekly basis for the past year.
Thankfully your sister had something that was easily diagnosable with an x-ray. This might be a blessing in disguise, as in the future when she has a truly complicated illness she might make a better decision. I like my chiropractor for stretching my back and all... but I wouldn't advocate going to one for an illness. At the very least people need to "get a second opinion". I wouldn't be so hard on the chiropractor because in age of the internet where we can research everyone's experiences to help us make the best decision, ultimately the choice is ours whether we believe in conventional medicine or magic stones. It tends to be hit or miss even with the real docs.
I agree, I've gone so far as to not even read about the election, or watch the debates; and I wont be voting ever again either. And enjoy life while you can because, if, or once you get to the point where you're visiting the docs all the time, dealing with all the corruption, those last hairs will fall out.

I didn't know you were struggling with health issues to this extent el chupacabra, I'm sorry to hear that. For what it's worth, my thoughts are with ya brother and may pleasant surprises abound, each day we're here.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

And enjoy life while you can because, if, or once you get to the point where you're visiting the docs all the time, dealing with all the corruption, those last hairs will fall out.

Oh, please.

"All the corruption"?

You apparently see "corruption" everywhere - the LibsDems are corrupt, the Cities are corrupt, the policitians are corrupt, the doctors are corrupt.... The more accurate - and plausible - explanation is that doctors are human, and no one is right 100% of the time, and when they make inevitable mistakes, really really bad things happen to people who are likely entirely without fault. And, that sort of shitty situation is their job.

"All the corruption" my ass. These people work miracles and save lives at an unprecedented rate, and when one or two of them make a mistake it's suddenly "corruption".

I'm offended by your ignorance.

[stupendousman]

Chiropractors serve a need and as long as you know (and they know) their limitations, they can be helpful.

If you have chronic problems or something that lasts more than a week or so, you need to go see a GP or specialist. I agree that most "alternative medicine" stuff is quackery, and if your chiropractor is the type that insists they can cure something like digestive problems, or high blood pressure - quickly run in the other direction.

I was a Chiropractic naysayer until a few years ago when I got my back out of wack getting out of a chair wrong. I was in serious pain and had problems walking. I tried to let it work itself out, but after about a week of this I let a friend set up an appointment with someone she absolutely vouched for.

The guy came in, had me lay on my stomach, adjusted my feet and too a good look at my back. After a few minutes of poking and prodding he pushed quickly and forcefully in a couple of area, then sat me up and pushed a place on my neck. In seconds, my pain started to disappear. Within an hour I was back to my old self.

I've went back twice over the years for similar things, with similar results. He's never tried to push any quakery on me - just adjusted things when I got them out of whack.

Moral of the story - not all Chiropractors are quacks. If you have a problem, ask a lot of questions and find one that knows their limits and don't try to oversell their services. They can be of great help for certain problems and simply dismissing all of them will only serve to hurt yourself.

[OAW]

Question? Why would anyone go to a chiropractor for anything OTHER THAN what Stu just talked about? I'm not aware of that practice involving anything but that type of stuff. That being said, perhaps olePigeon's sister's situation was more of an "alternative medicine practitioner" that just happened to provide chiropractic services ... among others. I suspect the issue here may not be chiropractic services in particular ... but rather the general reluctance of this practitioner to recognize the limitations of alternative medicine services in general that's at fault here.

OAW

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Oh, please.
"All the corruption"?
You apparently see "corruption" everywhere - the LibsDems are corrupt, republicans are corrupt, the corporations are corrupt, the Cities are corrupt, the policitians are corrupt, the doctors are corrupt....

Fixed
Yup, that's about the size of it. You don't think the policitians are corrupt? I live in a completely different world than you so I see what goes on behind the scenes; I am a part of what goes on behind the scenes... So I guess Im just more open to believing what goes on right before my eyes.

Since you mention cities, I live in a large city, it's not all bad. But you already know that since you read my posts about it. You're just pulling stuff out of context because you thought you saw an opportunity to dig into one of the seemingly less sympathetic, more direct, conservatives here. Believe it or not I am actually a very compassionate person; I'm just not going to give people a free pass when they mock a proven belief or right way of doing things; and if I feel any sympathy Im not going to let most people know it... I have a reason for this....
If you disagree with anything I said about cities and really want to bring it up then do so in the thread that already exists about how red areas are shit holes compared to blue areas. I was mainly taking liberal monkey poo an throwing it back in their face. Somebody's gotta do it. Can't count on the liberal mafia to call out the hypocrisy of its members. That wasn't the first bigoted thread started by that member so I pretty much got his beliefs down pat.

The more accurate - and plausible - explanation is that doctors are human, and no one is right 100% of the time, and when they make inevitable mistakes, really really bad things happen to people who are likely entirely without fault. And, that sort of shitty situation is their job.
"All the corruption" my ass. These people work miracles and save lives at an unprecedented rate, and when one or two of them make a mistake it's suddenly "corruption".
I'm offended by your ignorance.

That was my whole point.... Didn't think I had to spell it out

All I did was present a similar (worse) experience as ole p' but directed at a different occupation to make a point. I wanted him to see is that docs do the same thing at times, or worse, and that the chiropractor didn't exactly even make a mistake or do anything to cause her illness... or add to it. People go to those types of "healers" because they've already decided they want unconventional treatment for something they probably never considered to be serious. Some people don't go to anyone at all until it's too late. Then who do you get angry at? Personally the thing that bugs me the most is how many doctors won't just refuse service they aren't willing to provide; They say they'll see you, you show up, and they blow you off, without taking the time to complete the established procedure correctly; but they charge you full price anyway just for stepping in their office. If they don't have time they should just say so and not see you.

I won't argue that this wasn't a bad chiropractor, he should have taken an x ray and referred her to the right place. I know how ole p's feeling towards chiropractors right now so I'd like to see him cool down a little since thats a group he already had a lot of pent up rage about to begin with. IE the highest state of anger is when something you already hate and are angry with does something to hurt you even more. Not a good place to be in.

[Waragainstsleep]

My take is that the politicians and corporations are corrupt, cities are mostly incompetent and inefficient, doctors are often over stressed and while they should be held to account for mistakes that were avoidable, not every mistake should be considered avoidable. You can't give them carte blanche, but they are only human and most of us would live half as long without them.

[Shaddim]

If your back hurts, go to your GP and get a referral to a good physical therapist. Chiros aren't the root of all evil, but they aren't of much benefit either.

As for corruption, all entities (human, government, and corporate) have a certain degree of it, that's just reality. Anywhere power exists, there are those who want it all for themselves.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

She kept going to a chiropractor for back and pelvis problems, despite (or perhaps in spite, I was adamantly against it) me begged and pleaded with her to see her GP first and get a referral for a orthopedist.

You are right to condemn the chiropractor for being a quack. But once the stress of the current situation calms down, you should consider giving your sister a kick in the ass for being for willfully stupid.

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

And enjoy life while you can because, if, or once you get to the point where you're visiting the docs all the time, dealing with all the corruption, those last hairs will fall out.

Oh, please.

"All the corruption"?

You apparently see "corruption" everywhere - the LibsDems are corrupt, the Cities are corrupt, the policitians are corrupt, the doctors are corrupt.

The unsettling truth is that a substantial portion of your society is machine-driven, often to corruption or lower-than-they-should-be standards.

And I fear, election or not, that we're doomed for another 4 years.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

I.....don't know what you mean.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

After nearly 6 months of the bullsh*t from the chiropractor (herbs, "detoxes," colon clenses [a god damn drink made of silica!], etc.), she finally went to see her GP.

Why would she be doing all of that from her chiropractor????

[Waragainstsleep]

I had to do some data recovery for a hippy the other day. Lovely woman but I had to bite my tongue when she told me that she spent her time in Africa working with a new HIV treatment. It was an "EMF machine" that they turned on in a room and had people with HIV sit around it for 2 and a half hours for 12 days in a row.
Their "evidence" for its efficacy was entirely anecdotal about people feeling generally happier and for some of their secondary symptoms (which were still being treated by other medicines) subsiding slightly. She mentioned something about the electromagnetic field disrupting certain proteins but I got the impression she didn't really understand that part. I wanted to slap her when she said that 'big pharma' had sabotaged their clinical trials by making all the participating staff go back to work. Not quite sure what was meant there either.
It really enrages me that these well-meaning idiots were telling people to stop taking proven anti-retrovirals after spending a few hours near a non-specific electronic box.

Back on topic though, chiropractic is borderline as it is when it comes to valid medical science, when people start throwing in herb treatments and detox plans I just immediately stop listening.

[Shaddim]

I don't have any issues at all with homeopathic treatments, if they're used in addition to conventional medicine. My beef is when it's thought of as a substitute. A member of our church is an osteopath, and she's a nice lady, but some of her advice has the whiff of quackery to it. I'm all for treatment that will lift a person's spirits or give them hope, but FFS don't stop going to chemo.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

A member of our church is an osteopath, and she's a nice lady, but some of her advice has the whiff of quackery to it. I'm all for treatment that will lift a person's spirits or give them hope, but FFS don't stop going to chemo.

Just a whiff? I find »alternative medicine« deeply immoral, yes, the physical interaction may give some people hope, but most pay through the nose for this and often put more faith in their osteopath/whatever than in their real doctor. I just don't think it's ethical to ask people to fork over €€€ or €€€€ for things that plain don't work. (My best friend's father made his fortune this way; he's a real doctor who actually believes in all of this alternative medicine non-sense.)

I think a lot of the alternative medicine movement would just roll over and die if we put a little less pressure on doctors to treat people »assembly-line style« (I don't blame them, here in Germany, they are paid by the minute (!) according to the respective diagnosis). In some cases, it may even be cheaper: doctors' time and attention has been shown to be as effective as a small dose of medication.

[Doc HM]

I do grimace when well meaning but ultimately dippy new agers, hippies etc bang on about "big pharma" and moan about drug companies pushing their products for $$ and then spending a fortune on some diet suppliment drink from an alt med co that's making money hand over fist.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by Doc HM 

I do grimace when well meaning but ultimately dippy new agers, hippies etc bang on about "big pharma" and moan about drug companies pushing their products for $$ and then spending a fortune on some diet suppliment drink from an alt med co that's making money hand over fist.

Hold on there Doc, you are not always right.

I've been through quite a few sinus surgeries (chronic infections) over the past few years, without any real success. Before that it was a ridiculous merry-go-round of medications - some costing $200 a month, again without any benefit. Recently I started a regimen of turmeric: 3 500mg caps a day. Guess what? I can finally breathe. No drugs, only cheap turmeric about $10 a month. Not a coincidence - and far from new agers and big pharma alike.

[subego]

I'd say that's more of an issue with most doctors being uninterested in looking outside their own bubble.

My doctor, who's pretty awesome, always seems willing to at least try a non-western/pharma solution if there's evidence of it working.

Examples:

Back pain? Try acupuncture first.
Post-nasal drip? Try a neti-pot first.
High cholesterol? Try Red Rice Yeast first.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by osiris 

Hold on there Doc, you are not always right.

I've been through quite a few sinus surgeries (chronic infections) over the past few years, without any real success.  Before that it was a ridiculous merry-go-round of medications - some costing $200 a month, again without any benefit.  Recently I started a regimen of turmeric:  3 500mg caps a day.  Guess what?  I can finally breathe.  No drugs, only cheap turmeric about $10 a month.  Not a coincidence - and far from new agers and big pharma alike.

Well, yeah, and if you chew on willow bark* it'll ease head and tooth aches and will lower a fever (but tastes like crap). Turmeric is a powerful antioxidant, astringent, and contains 1/4th the THC of everyone's favorite smokable herb.




*contains high concentrations of acetylsalicylic acid.

[P]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Well, yeah, and if you chew on willow bark* it'll ease head and tooth aches and will lower a fever (but tastes like crap). Turmeric is a powerful antioxidant, astringent, and contains 1/4th the THC of everyone's favorite smokable herb.
*contains high concentrations of acetylsalicylic acid.

Actually it contains salicylic acid, which is what you use to make acetylsalicylic acid (the active ingredient in asprin). Salicylic acid works more or less the same way, but has some nasty side effects, and the transformation to actylsalicylic acid is to avoid or lessen some of those side effects.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by subego 

I'd say that's more of an issue with most doctors being uninterested in looking outside their own bubble.
My doctor, who's pretty awesome, always seems willing to at least try a non-western/pharma solution if there's evidence of it working.
Examples:
Back pain? Try acupuncture first.
Post-nasal drip? Try a neti-pot first.
High cholesterol? Try Red Rice Yeast first.

Acupuncture is mostly believed to work via placebo effect but its known to relieve tension in muscles which can alleviate back pain when muscle tension is the cause. A neti-pot will flush your sinuses regardless of whats in it, thats just plumbing. Changing your diet to reduce cholesterol is the standard first thing to try.

When alternative medicine works, its called medicine.

[subego]

I'm not really sure what your point is.

I'll restate my point.

I'm going to bet a vast majority of doctors would treat PND with a pill or inhaler.

I believe it is unusual for a doctor to say "try a neti-pot, we can always go to the inhaler if it doesn't work" with a PND diagnosis.

Both of these are medicine. I'd say the method which allows for the potential of treating something without pharmacology is superior, despite my perception most doctors would just default to the pharma.

[Waragainstsleep]

I'll agree with that.

Man made chemicals always have the potential for unknown side effects, so more common naturally occurring substances should always be preferred, as long as their efficacy is proven of course.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

I'll agree with that.
Man made chemicals always have the potential for unknown side effects, so more common naturally occurring substances should always be preferred, as long as their efficacy is proven of course.

I'm sorry, but this is non-sense: many drugs stem from plants, as do many recreational drugs (shrooms, for instance). In principle, they are no more or less dangerous than »man-made« chemicals.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I'm sorry, but this is non-sense: many drugs stem from plants, as do many recreational drugs (shrooms, for instance). In principle, they are no more or less dangerous than »man-made« chemicals.

Its perfectly sensible.

Natural substances have usually been around for centuries or longer and humans and/or have been exposed to them deliberately or otherwise. The pros and cons are far more thoroughly known over a much greater sample size and long term side effects are included, though obviously some of the data is a little anecdotal.

Highly synthesised drugs are tested for their effects on one or two conditions and tested for side effects. There are many many other conditions that they are never tested with that could be caused or exacerbated by these drugs once they get into general use. There could also be unforeseen long term effects. The more of them you use, the greater the risk as these drugs can break down into other things and all of these potential drugs and their byproducts within the body or the environment can react with each other and could cause yet more previously untested side effects. You can't test every drug you create with every other drug ever created after all.

I'm not saying there is a massively higher risk in taking artificial drugs over natural ones, just that it makes sense to try the natural ones first as they are less likely to be harmful without it having been seen before.

[subego]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I'm sorry, but this is non-sense: many drugs stem from plants, as do many recreational drugs (shrooms, for instance). In principle, they are no more or less dangerous than »man-made« chemicals.

When a "man-made" chemical is designed to reproduce a natural chemical exactly. That's usually not the case.

Coca leaves and cocaine have the same chemical, but there's a significant difference between chewing some leaves and doing a rail.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

When a "man-made" chemical is designed to reproduce a natural chemical exactly. That's usually not the case.

I'm not arguing that: I'm just saying that you fall into the trap that »naturally occurring« substances are somehow less harmful than artificial substances. This is incorrect.

Originally Posted by subego 

Coca leaves and cocaine have the same chemical, but there's a significant difference between chewing some leaves and doing a rail.

Yes, but that works both ways: there are certain mushrooms and vegetables (white asparagus), for instance, which humans can digest much better after they are cooked.

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Its perfectly sensible.
Natural substances have usually been around for centuries or longer and humans and/or have been exposed to them deliberately or otherwise. The pros and cons are far more thoroughly known over a much greater sample size and long term side effects are included, though obviously some of the data is a little anecdotal.

I am not sure how your argument applies to medicine: many of the active substances in drugs have been derived or directly found in other organisms, and the main difference between a synthetic drug and the »original« is the concentration. But this also implies that the natural equivalent has no medical effect. That's the reason drug stores are even allowed to sell »alternative medicine«, it has been medically shown that they have no effect, »ill« or otherwise.

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

I'm not saying there is a massively higher risk in taking artificial drugs over natural ones, just that it makes sense to try the natural ones first as they are less likely to be harmful without it having been seen before.

I disagree: many people who buy into alternative medicine use it because they see it as a »no risk« medication, mostly they're not sure that it works, but at least it doesn't hurt! But often it keeps people from going to »real« doctors, because they are afraid. Or they change the dose they take. For instance, at one point, my sister decided to start with half the dose of the prescribed (serious) medication which had disastrous effects: it threw the doctor for a loop who concluded the medication wasn't working and something was wrong.

I think one of the problems subego mentioned earlier is real, though: many common ailments and illnesses are overmedicated. We can argue whether doctors are just keen on prescribing something since they earn $$$ in the process or it is psychological, because the patient doesn't go home with the recommendation to rest for a few days and wait until the cold is over.

[Spheric Harlot]

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I'm not arguing that: I'm just saying that you fall into the trap that »naturally occurring« substances are somehow less harmful than artificial substances. This is incorrect.
Yes, but that works both ways: there are certain mushrooms and vegetables (white asparagus), for instance, which humans can digest much better after they are cooked.
I am not sure how your argument applies to medicine: many of the active substances in drugs have been derived or directly found in other organisms, and the main difference between a synthetic drug and the »original« is the concentration. But this also implies that the natural equivalent has no medical effect. That's the reason drug stores are even allowed to sell »alternative medicine«, it has been medically shown that they have no effect, »ill« or otherwise.
I disagree: many people who buy into alternative medicine use it because they see it as a »no risk« medication, mostly they're not sure that it works, but at least it doesn't hurt! But often it keeps people from going to »real« doctors, because they are afraid. Or they change the dose they take. For instance, at one point, my sister decided to start with half the dose of the prescribed (serious) medication which had disastrous effects: it threw the doctor for a loop who concluded the medication wasn't working and something was wrong.
I think one of the problems subego mentioned earlier is real, though: many common ailments and illnesses are overmedicated. We can argue whether doctors are just keen on prescribing something since they earn $$$ in the process or it is psychological, because the patient doesn't go home with the recommendation to rest for a few days and wait until the cold is over.

The crux of my argument is really just that natural substances have usual been around longer and been used longer. Thats the only reason that I say they are safer, they are better known quantities. Obviously I'm talking about substances with medicinal value. I wouldn't suggest that someone use jellyfish venom to cure a headache.

[airira]

Just for the record, the guy your sister went to was a quack, not a chiropractor. There are several different types of chiros and the only ones I would recommend are the Upper Cervical Chiropractors. They use gentle touches to re-align the spine. No rack'em and crack'em.
I have suffered from trigeminal neuralgia for nearly 18 years. Look it up some time. It's the worst pain ever seen by doctors. Trust me, it is.
The thing that has helped me most is Upper Cervical Chiropractic. The nerve is being compressed near the 5th cervical and getting re-aligned takes the pressure off the nerve. Believe me, UCC has literally saved my life.
Any chiropractor who tries to sell you on high colonics, or special vitamins, or anything else like that is a quack and you should stay away. But there are good chiros who help people with whiplash, compressed nerves, etc. You just have to do your homework and find the best ones. Just like doctors. I have seen good physicians and real quack doctors. You just have to use your best judgment. I know it's difficult when you're in pain but if I can do it, anybody can.

[Doc HM]

Originally Posted by subego 

I'd say that's more of an issue with most doctors being uninterested in looking outside their own bubble.
My doctor, who's pretty awesome, always seems willing to at least try a non-western/pharma solution if there's evidence of it working.
Examples:
Back pain? Try acupuncture first.

aaand credibility reduced to zero.

Acupuncture is THE go to poster boy for placebo or worse outcomes.

[Waragainstsleep]

Good doctors will prescribe placebos if they think they are dealing with hypochondriacs.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Doc HM 

aaand credibility reduced to zero.
Acupuncture is THE go to poster boy for placebo or worse outcomes.

Hogwash, I get treatment every couple weeks, my wife is a physical therapist and accredited acupuncturist. I love the results.

[Waragainstsleep]

Acupuncture is long proven to work only via the placebo effect.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Acupuncture is long proven to work only via the placebo effect.

Incorrect. You're trolling, anyway. "Long proven"? "Only"? A little too obvious there.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Doc HM 

aaand credibility reduced to zero.
Acupuncture is THE go to poster boy for placebo or worse outcomes.

Here's my appeal to authority.

My doctor works at one of the best hospitals in the world, affiliated with one of the best universities in the world. She gave me a referral to an acupuncturist who is on staff.

Maybe you're right, but your claim needs more juice if you intend to be convincing.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Good doctors will prescribe placebos if they think they are dealing with hypochondriacs.

Not a hypochondriac in this case. I've got multiple spinal fractures, and have x-rays to prove it.

[Waragainstsleep]

I wasn't suggesting you were, just that a doctor might have thought so (in this case if they hadn't read your history) What did you do to get multiple spinal fractures, if I may ask?

I went to see a doctor at a surgery I have been registered for my whole life but I hadn't been there in at least 5 years. He thought I was imagining my issue despite this. Personally I think people who imagine medical issues might visit a bit more often than once in 5 years no? I assume he didn't bother to look at my history. That said if you went in complaining of back pain I can't imagine multiple fractures never came up.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Incorrect. You're trolling, anyway. "Long proven"? "Only"? A little too obvious there.

Is it possible to disagree with you without trolling?

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/can-we-finally-just-say-that-acupuncture-is-nothing-more-than-an-elaborate-placebo/

[subego]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

I wasn't suggesting you were, just that a doctor might have thought so (in this case if they hadn't read your history) What did you do to get multiple spinal fractures, if I may ask?
I went to see a doctor at a surgery I have been registered for my whole life but I hadn't been there in at least 5 years. He thought I was imagining my issue despite this. Personally I think people who imagine medical issues might visit a bit more often than once in 5 years no? I assume he didn't bother to look at my history. That said if you went in complaining of back pain I can't imagine multiple fractures never came up.

I had a seizure hit me out of nowhere while I was standing, so it resulted in a pretty serious wipeout. My back hit the threshold between hardwood and tile. It also smashed up the side of my head pretty good too. I've been told it's pretty miraculous I still have decent hearing in that ear.

She said "there's not much I can do with a fracture beyond giving you painkillers. You can also try acupuncture". It's ultimately not bad enough for me to do either.

OTOH, I tore a back muscle in an unrelated incident and now get back spasms, which really suck. She went straight to Valium for that, which didn't work but was fun to try.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Is it possible to disagree with you without trolling?
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/can-we-finally-just-say-that-acupuncture-is-nothing-more-than-an-elaborate-placebo/

I'm not discounting your claims, but I don't think a blog post attacking someone else's study counts as "long proven".

[Waragainstsleep]

I thought it was long proven. I'm pretty sure its proven.

Some of these things are always going to be in dispute as long as there is money to be made from it.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Incorrect. You're trolling, anyway. "Long proven"? "Only"? A little too obvious there.

Why don't you disagree with others in a more civil fashion, without accusing them of trolling? It feels as if Waragainstsleep has touched a nerve by discounting your wife's profession. And do you really think a link to some Q&A website is a substitute for links to actual research if you want to argue your point of view?

Come on, let's keep it civil.

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Acupuncture is long proven to work only via the placebo effect.

Yup.

Originally Posted by subego 

Not a hypochondriac in this case. I've got multiple spinal fractures, and have x-rays to prove it.

That's a weird way to read Waragainstsleep's response to Shaddim's post: the placebo effect is real, it's been tested scientifically that placebos can actually replace a sizable dose of actual pain killers so long the patients believe they're taking actual pain killers, for instance.

[subego]

I think you misread. He wasn't responding to Shaddim, and was discussing hypochondria.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

I think you misread. He wasn't responding to Shaddim, and was discussing hypochondria.

His post appears just below one of Shaddim's who in turn is responding to Doc HM. To me, he's responding to Shaddim's comment on acupuncture. And I still think it's a stretch to go from »placebos are used in hypochondriacs« to people who visit acupuncturists are hypochondriacs, and you're unjustly putting words into Waragainstsleep's mouth.

The mechanism behind the placebo effect also makes real medicine more or less effective, i. e. a patient's perception of a medicine alters its effectiveness. Which means acupuncture can be more efficient than »doing nothing«. But the cause for the subjective relief is the placebo effect.

[subego]

Umm... okay.