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The mindset of removing all our history good or bad stinks just like ISIS destroying antiquities. Same level of intelligence.
Removing a flag from a capitol ground isn't the same as destroying centuries-old statues, buildings, etc.
The Confederate flag belongs in museums from a government standpoint, and wherever they so please from a private standpoint. If a citizen wants to fly it outside their house, on their wall, or on their car window, they should feel free to do so. Let's just not pretend it doesn't carry racist connotations, especially in the South.
I've lived here for 27 years, and I've yet to meet someone who flies the flag, yet doesn't use the N-word.
Yeah we shouldn't ever do anything about racist symbols on government buildings because it will piss off the racists. Such a noble rebel spirit.
Hyperbole! Get you hot, fresh hyperbole here! Shat right out of a progressive's puckered ass this morning along with a fully-dressed strawman! Hyperbole here!
Originally Posted by OAW
Amazing how such basic concepts seem to elude CTP.
Like due process? Idgit.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Removing a flag from a capitol ground isn't the same as destroying centuries-old statues, buildings, etc.
The Confederate flag belongs in museums from a government standpoint, and wherever they so please from a private standpoint. If a citizen wants to fly it outside their house, on their wall, or on their car window, they should feel free to do so. Let's just not pretend it doesn't carry racist connotations, especially in the South.
If it weren't a memorial for fallen Confederate soldiers, I'd agree, in S Carolina there are laws against flying non-governmental flags over the capitol.
I've lived here for 27 years, and I've yet to meet someone who flies the flag, yet doesn't use the N-word.
It's been at least 3 years since I've even heard the N-word used in day-to-day life (when it isn't part of a comedy sketch or in a movie).
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Removing a flag from a capitol ground isn't the same as destroying centuries-old statues, buildings, etc.
Thats not exactly what I mean.. The libStooges are now suggesting renaming Washington DC, Tearing down the Jefferson Memorial, etc.
Originally Posted by Jawbone54
The Confederate flag belongs in museums from a government standpoint, and wherever they so please from a private standpoint. If a citizen wants to fly it outside their house, on their wall, or on their car window, they should feel free to do so. Let's just not pretend it doesn't carry racist connotations, especially in the South.
Partially agree.
Originally Posted by Jawbone54
I've lived here for 27 years, and I've yet to meet someone who flies the flag, yet doesn't use the N-word.
I hear it every day in DC. The AA's use it all the time, but sure, they aren't racist. Not anymore than Sharpton, Jackson, Van Johnson et al. Frankly, I'm tired of the liberal hypocrites kneejerk reactions.
Scrubbing the country of the 'confederate flag' is a diversion from the issue of wack jobs with guns. Anybody care about the number of blacks killed over the 4th of July by other blacks?
Anybody care about the number of blacks killed over the 4th of July by other blacks?
Amongst white people? Not many.
The usual opinion is a continuum of "I don't give a ****" to "let them kill themselves".
Edit: and why would anti-Confederate flag people want to distract you from gun violence? Anti-Confederate flag and anti-gun are (more or less) the same team.
If it weren't a memorial for fallen Confederate soldiers, I'd agree, in S Carolina there are laws against flying non-governmental flags over the capitol.
So sensitive was Lee during his final years with extinguishing the fiery passions of the Civil War that he opposed erecting monuments on the battlefields where the Southern soldiers under his command had fought against the Union. “I think it wiser moreover not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavoured to obliterate the marks of civil strife and to commit to oblivion the feelings it engendered,” he wrote.
EDIT: Maybe not best, since he didn't want any monuments at all, but still.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
It's been at least 3 years since I've even heard the N-word used in day-to-day life (when it isn't part of a comedy sketch or in a movie).
I wish I could say the same.
Originally Posted by BadKosh
Thats not exactly what I mean.. The libStooges are now suggesting renaming Washington DC, Tearing down the Jefferson Memorial, etc.
I would say, "That will never happen," but I've been wrong many, many times.
I hear it every day in DC. The AA's use it all the time, but sure, they aren't racist. Not anymore than Sharpton, Jackson, Van Johnson et al. Frankly, I'm tired of the liberal hypocrites kneejerk reactions.
Scrubbing the country of the 'confederate flag' is a diversion from the issue of wack jobs with guns. Anybody care about the number of blacks killed over the 4th of July by other blacks?
It's true that many people are looking for any way to say, "Hey, sorry about that crazy white kid. We'll take down a few flags."
That being said, I think they should have been taken down from government property a long time ago.
EDIT: Maybe not best, since he didn't want any monuments at all, but still.
Lee was against monuments entirely, if it had been up to him the tomb of the Unknown Soldier and Arlington cemetery wouldn't exist.
I wish I could say the same.
We apparently live in very different subcultures within the South, which is why it's a good idea for individual states to determine their own social standards.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Call me if we get something more concrete like a poll or a proposition with a lot of signatures.
Yeah, it's not like a bunch of noisy dweebs online can piss and moan and cause things to happen... No sir.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Yeah, it's not like a bunch of noisy dweebs online can piss and moan and cause things to happen... No sir.
Is that what you saw?
From my POV all was quiet (aside from pointing out that Roof really liked racist symbols) and then suddenly Gov. Haley decided to pull down the flag. If she was being pressured, I missed it.
If it was just rabble-rousing, it also doesn't explain why the sudden GOP about face after years of not giving a ****. The GOP is not one to give in to popular opinion.
Originally Posted by subego
Honestly, no. It's inevitable this thread is going to grow to cover wider race relation issues.
I'm going to ignore this so I can whine about the subject again at a later date.
No one is going to tear down the Jefferson Memorial.
Seriously. I'll fly down and strap myself to the ****er, first.
Save me a seat, I'll be there with you. F***ers.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
That's a horrendous turn of logic, how do you even come up with that?
By reading a history book?
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
They can say it symbolizes whatever they want.
They can. That only works if people believe you (And yes, quite a few people do)
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
Where it was flying at the S Carolina capitol it symbolized remembrance for the South's honored dead and it flew over their memorial.
Remembrance for soldiers that fought in a war about the right to own humans as slaves. As I said before, it's one thing to remember them. It's another to glorify it by flying the flag of their cause.
---
Here's a thought: Are there memorials for British Loyalists who fought against us in the Revolutionary war? Are there american families that talk proudly about their ancestors fighting against the traitorous revolutionaries?
You can't talk about the Civil War without also looking at Reconstruction and the havoc that wreaked on the Southern states (as if having most of their cities burned to the ground wasn't bad enough).
Reconstruction is a direct result of their actions. You can't break a pact and then expect everyone else to pretend nothing happened afterwards, especially after fighting tooth and nail.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
They're no more stupid than Americans buying into the propaganda of the "savage red man" or "evil Japs".
Uh, no one honors soldiers for participating in the genocide of native americans. That's my entire god damn point. They didn't know better but we sure as hell don't celebrate their sacrifice now.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
Spoken like someone who's never dealt with daily enemy occupation.
...and you have.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
What he did to Atlanta alone would now be against the Geneva convention and considered a war crime.
A lot of what we did 150 years ago would be against the Geneva Convention.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
You have room to talk, considering this whole thread is about a small, yet extremely vocal, portion of the population with hurt feelings.
I posted the polls. 72% of blacks see it as racism. It's your call if you want to label that number as insignificant.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
No they aren't, not in S Carolina.
Really? 51% of South Carolinians fly the Battle Flag?
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
No, it's about a bunch of loudmouths who don't live in a place crying over a thing they can't understand that has nothing to do with them. Social Justice in action! The blacks who live in S Carolina and see it waving every day do have a point, and a method for airing their grievance and working for change within the structure of the law. Unfortunately, however, we've learned to just pitch a hissy fit to try and get what we want.
We've been having this argument for decades. What changed Shaddim? Why did the GOP give in now? You claim a vocal minority was yelling? Where, because I didn't see it.
Five million public school students in Texas will begin using new social studies textbooks this fall based on state academic standards that barely address racial segregation. The state’s guidelines for teaching American history also do not mention the Ku Klux Klan or Jim Crow laws.
Nowhere is the rejection of slavery’s central role more apparent than in Texas, where elected members of the state board of education revised state social studies standards in 2010 to correct for what they said was a liberal slant.
Students in Texas are required to read the speech Jefferson Davis gave when he was inaugurated president of the Confederate States of America, an address that does not mention slavery. But students are not required to read a famous speech by Alexander Stephens, Davis’s vice president, in which he explained that the South’s desire to preserve slavery was the cornerstone of its new government and “the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution.”
One of the ironies of all this is that taking down one rebel flag has led to countless others going up to take its place. My state has Sons of the Confederacy vanity license plates (rebel flag is displayed on them), in my county only 2 of them sold in 6 months, I guess people who wanted them already had them. When this shit went down, however, the clerk's office sold 40 in just 2 days. My local VFW is flying the rebel flag, something I've never seen them do before, and so is; the masonic lodge, the local deli, our library, and 5 other businesses on main street alone. For ****'s sake, I've seen it waving in public so much it makes me think we've gone back in time 150 years. These guys can't keep them in stock.
I remember the last time I saw something like this happen. It involved gay marriage in 2004.
The Senate is why the South insisted on parity above all else.
The criticism isn't that New York got its population by breeding faster, it's because the Federal Government was unevenly spending money on infrastructure. New York had more population because it was made a better place to go, at the expense of the South.
I'll try to hook you up with links.
I'm not saying Lincoln's election caused the break, his election was the last straw. The break happened in 1850, after parity was lost. 10 years, three free states, the victory of someone who wasn't even on the ballot in most of the Southern states, and the economic factors I mentioned above prompted the split.
In which case I should give them credit for not seceding as soon as the extra free states came in.
BTW, I should mention as much as I blame the south for not getting any more progressive on slavery in 75 years, I do realize the ultimate fault lies with the founders and the inability to address the problem from the beginning. The reason being, of course, that there'd likely have been no union if they had.
In which case I should give them credit for not seceding as soon as the extra free states came in.
Punctuation-wise, this is a statement, but it reads like a rhetorical question.
My ultimate point isn't really in regards to whether the South should have seceded, I'm trying to address the argument the South seceded because of Lincoln's election. More specifically, what's implied by it.
The South are [adjective] because they seceded to protect slavery when Lincoln wasn't even going to abolish slavery.
Let's see... something which absolves the North of all culpability and casts the South as behaving in a way which defies all logic.
Hmm... I wonder under whose auspices that idea gained traction.
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar
BTW, I should mention as much as I blame the south for not getting any more progressive on slavery in 75 years, I do realize the ultimate fault lies with the founders and the inability to address the problem from the beginning. The reason being, of course, that there'd likely have been no union if they had.
And you can continue to trace it into the North right up until it became economically feasible to abandon the practice, and not a second sooner. This isn't a coincidence. But hey, this outsourced human bondage is some pretty hot shit, eh?
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar
I'll get to this, but for obvious reasons, I'm out of well-thought-out posts for the day.
They can. That only works if people believe you (And yes, quite a few people do)
Remembrance for soldiers that fought in a war about the right to own humans as slaves. As I said before, it's one thing to remember them. It's another to glorify it by flying the flag of their cause.
---
Here's a thought: Are there memorials for British Loyalists who fought against us in the Revolutionary war? Are there american families that talk proudly about their ancestors fighting against the traitorous revolutionaries?
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar
Reconstruction is a direct result of their actions. You can't break a pact and then expect everyone else to pretend nothing happened afterwards, especially after fighting tooth and nail.
Uh, no one honors soldiers for participating in the genocide of native americans. That's my entire god damn point. They didn't know better but we sure as hell don't celebrate their sacrifice now.
...and you have.
A lot of what we did 150 years ago would be against the Geneva Convention.
I posted the polls. 72% of blacks see it as racism. It's your call if you want to label that number as insignificant.
Really? 51% of South Carolinians fly the Battle Flag?
We've been having this argument for decades. What changed Shaddim? Why did the GOP give in now? You claim a vocal minority was yelling? Where, because I didn't see it.
See all that? Round and round like I said earlier, no use in repeating myself. *shrug* At this point even if one of us made a point the other agreed with, we're too invested in our "side" and would dig for something to refute the other.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Twitter "hate", based on geotagging (which a lot of people turn off), no less.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Uh, no one honors soldiers for participating in the genocide of native americans. That's my entire god damn point. They didn't know better but we sure as hell don't celebrate their sacrifice now.
... however, that particular comment is simply too damned ignorant to ignore.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Hyperbole! Get you hot, fresh hyperbole here! Shat right out of a progressive's puckered ass this morning along with a fully-dressed strawman! Hyperbole here!
Like due process? Idgit.
I'm not sure I've ever seen you so riled before. I sense there is something you aren't telling us.
Do you have one of these flags tattooed somewhere?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
I'm not sure I've ever seen you so riled before. I sense there is something you aren't telling us.
Do you have one of these flags tattooed somewhere?
Riled? Oh right, that's understandable, you've probably never been to a baseball stadium and heard how the vendors talk.
Hot dogs! Get your hot dogs here! Tasty hot dogs, made fresh! Hot dogs here!
OAW doesn't have an excuse though, except that he's easily amused. Derp.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Why was the confederate flag flown above Soith Carolina govt buildings? I seem to recall it hasnt always been there.
It wasn't. The flag was moved many years ago to a Civil War memorial on the state capitol grounds. People want the flag moved to a museum. That still leaves the monument as a reminder.
See all that? Round and round like I said earlier, no use in repeating myself. *shrug* At this point even if one of us made a point the other agreed with, we're too invested in our "side" and would dig for something to refute the other.
Okay, but answer me this since you keep harping on about: What changed? Why did the GOP give in now? You claim a vocal minority was yelling? Where, because I didn't see it.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
Twitter "hate", based on geotagging (which a lot of people turn off), no less.
... however, that particular comment is simply too damned ignorant to ignore.
My god, I never expected...
Unfortunately it does bring up a good question which I imagine will mirror the Beford Forresst question. Does being a Civil War Hero override being involved in genocide? (I would say no, no it does not).
Second, how can a guy who's main claim to history being how stupidly he got himself get killed while committing genocide be memorialized? I suppose if they erect it to commemorate a very specific battle or act you might be able to get away with it...
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Oh yeah, as always this issue is mostly divided along political lines. Democrats' Views on Confederate Flag Increasingly Negative
Nothing screams politicized like it trending upward for Republicans. Couldn't possibly a racial issue, though.
Check out the large point disparity in opinion between those who graduated college and those who didn't finish high school. Coinicdence...?
18% of conservatives see it as racism. The number doubles just for moderates. That said, there are no clear majorities other than, you know, those people.
Gov. Haley just signed a bill removing the Confederate Flag from the S. Carolina capitol grounds. Let the wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth begin.
A South Carolina bill to remove the Confederate flag from its position in front of the state house is gaining momentum, with the House of Representatives currently reviewing the bill and preparing to vote. Here are the pros and cons of flying the Confederate flag:
PROS
Bold way to display distorted, painstakingly cherry-picked heritage
Stirring symbol of South’s never-surrender attitude 150 years after South’s surrender
It’s already all the way up there on flagpole
Simplest way to let others know your state ranks in bottom quintile of all quality-of-life metrics
Eliminates uncomfortable feeling of having to say aloud what you think of African Americans
Political correctness should not get in the way of being on the wrong side of history
Without it, nation might forget racism ever happened in U.S.
CONS
Can’t fully grasp its incredible grandeur like you can on a bedspread or garage door
May arouse negative feelings among blacks regarding 19th-century states’ rights, currency inflation, and sectarianism
U.S. flag already represents history of entrenched prejudice just as well
Eliminates tedious raising, lowering, and triangular-folding tasks
Has always been sad reminder of The Dukes Of Hazzard’s cancellation
Could give accurate representation as to what kind of person is flying it
There still plenty of other ways to make nation’s black population feel despised, derided, and inferior
"Faster, faster! 'Till the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death." - HST
Gov. Haley just signed a bill removing the Confederate Flag from the S. Carolina capitol grounds. Let the wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth begin.
OAW
I'm still wondering what the hell spurred her to do this. I believe she's even defended it in the past.
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