[NSUser]

Hello everyone,

It's time to replace my aging TiBook, and I'm wresting with the Macbook vs. Macbook Pro decision. I really like the form-factor of the Macbook models, but I'm concerned with how long its useful life will be (not so much as a reliability issue, but in terms of how the integrated graphics will hold up with future OS X releases). I tend to replace my personal laptop only every five years or so, so I'd like to get something that will last.

I'll be using the machine for general-purpose stuff (e-mail, iTunes, etc.), as well as some "light" development work (both Mac and iPhone apps).

The logical choice would seem to be the Macbook Pro, but here's the catch: I already have a first-gen MB Pro that I use every day at work. It belongs to the company I work for, so I'd rather not start loading my own music, e-mail accounts, personal projects etc. onto it. So I do have access to an MBP if I really needed it for something specific.

Finally, one other constraint: I can only consider models that are available now. I have access to an ADC discount that expires early next month, so I can't really wait for too long to see if there's an August/September refresh of either line.

I'm still leaning towards the MBP, but just wondered if anyone here had any advice or perspective that they could offer.

Thanks in advance!

[mduell]

Buy the next MacBook update, with the Cantiga-G chipset (better graphics, more RAM); I think it will easily last 2-3 years with the pace of OS X development.

A 5 year replacement cycle is too long IMO; you pay a ton for the marginal gains to get out to the bleeding edge. Buy one for half the price and replace on a 2-3 year schedule. If you still want to go with the 5 year plan, both the MacBook and MacBook Pro have upcoming updates (double the memory ceiling) that will significantly increase the viable lifespan of the machine.

[webb3201]

I ran a Macbook for a year and then migrated to a Macbook Pro. I must say that I have regretted it every day, and am looking to go back to a Macbook soon. In my case it comes down to form factor. I prefer the 13.3 size which just sits perfectly in my lap. The keyboard feels much better and I dont have to worry about heat burns on my thighs. From the perspective of extended your lifetime, you will like the fact that upgrading the hard drive takes about a minute on the macbook as opposed to the 18 screw, 15 minutes process on the Pro.

With the move to Intel prompting more updates than we had in the G4 days, 5 years will seem much longer than it used to be. That said, I think both will be good machines for many years.

[OreoCookie]

Nowadays integrated graphics chips are fast enough for pretty much anything `normal' (web, iTunes, Photoshop, etc.) and only in certain situations you will need a faster, dedicated GPU (e. g. Aperture, Motion, 3d games). The cpu is the same, the types of harddrives are the same, the MacBook is even smaller, etc. So if you (i) don't need a GPU and (ii) can content yourself with a 13.3" screen, then the MacBook will satisfy your needs just as well.

I don't think fromt the list of requirements you really need a ProBook. Speedwise, there is no difference if you compare models with the same clockspeed.

[Simon]

I agree with some of what has been said above. In terms of CPUs, chipsets, HDDs, etc. the MB and MBP are very close. If you don't need the larger screen, FW800, or the GPU (i.e, you're a Motion/Aperture guy or gamer), chances are you'll be fine with a MB.

Your 5 year cycle is a problem though. IMHO five years is too long and you will be paying too much for today's top of the line and yet you'll still end up lagging behind with the same machine in five years. Regardless, if you actually plan on keeping this Mac that long, you might want to reconsider the MB. From all we've previously seen the GPU will become more important in the future. Right now the X3100 is ok for a lot of things (basically almost anything apart from games, Aperture, Motion). But if Apple really starts pushing more onto the GPU (FCP for example) and also gets developers to start running more stuff on the GPU (Snow Leopard's OpenCL should do exactly that) you could end up with an outdated MB a lot earlier than you would have with a MBP.

In the end you do not sound like somebody who does a lot of heavy duty stuff. I think in your position you'd be better of getting a much less expensive MB as soon as they come out with Cantiga (although I'd be surprised to see Apple increase the RAM limit on the MB). With all the savings compared to getting a MBP you would still be able to update in three years from now should it turn out to be necessary. Buying a MBP now for stuff you do not do yet and betting on something happening in three-five years from now is a lot riskier.

[amazing]

just out of curiosity: is your MBP at work glossy or matte? If you're already used to a glossy screen, then go with the MB at home. If you're used to matte, then you'd better take a look at how happy you'd be with a glossy screen, because eyestrain might be a factor.

[NSUser]

My very sincere thanks for the feedback everyone, there was a lot of useful perspective here.

amazing: My current MBP has the matte screen, and the switch to the glossy screen on the MB is definitely something that I've considered. One of the things that I find appealing about the MB is its portability -- I'd like to be able to take it anywhere (not that I go that many places...). I've been a bit worried that the glossy screen might create problems under different lighting conditions. I had the opportunity to talk to some MB users at WWDC this year, and they generally didn't feel that it was too much of a problem, though.

With respect to the GPU comments, I agree that my needs don't really warrant much beyond the integrated graphics today. What I'm a bit worried about, though is where and how Apple will use the new OpenCL technology in Snow Leopard and beyond (as Simon pointed out). The ability to use the GPU's stream processors as additional compute resources creates some interesting opportunities, and I'd like to be able to take advantage of it if I can.

Well, I've still got a couple of weeks to procrastinate about it, so I guess I'll use the time to full advantage.

Once again, thanks for the comments, all. I know that the "MB vs. MBP" thing has been done to death here, and I really appreciate everyone taking the time to offer their comments on the specifics of my situation.

Will keep you posted...

[forumhound]

i probably should keep my mouth shut, as I am here in the forums searching for a way to fix an ever failing MBP, and using an indestructible MB to do it. I guess that's my two cents, good luck!

[Charles Bouldin]

I buy Mac laptops on a 2-3 year replacement basis. Applecare lasts 3 years and the exact timing of whether the replacement is 2 years, or 3 depends on (1) how well Apple has innovated to give me something new worth buying, and (2) how I perceive the depreciation on my current laptop is going.

I've routinely sold my old laptops to ifixit.com and gotten decent prices with no worries about ebay buyers, etc. On a little over a 2 year cycle, my net cost is about $1.75/day for the laptop, assuming about 800 days, $2500 cost and $1000 resale. For me, this seems like the right setup point between affordability and staying current with the technology.

[SierraDragon]

Good thread, lots of insightful comments.

My 0.02 is that a MB is ok IF one is not involved in heavy graphics work. Not so much because of the limited graphics support that others have mentioned, but rather because the glossy display, lack of FW800, limited pixels and much less screen real estate make MBs a poor choice for significant graphics work.

-Allen Wicks

[OreoCookie]

If you do heavy graphics work on a portable, you need an external screen anyway. Any external screen (with a non-TN panel) will be a significant improvement over a ProBook or MacBook screen (glossy or not). That also solves the screen estate problem. A MacBook is fully capable of doing graphics-related stuff (unless you want to use Aperture or so) and for light editing/pre-editing, especially if the screen has been calibrated. For fine-tuning, I recommend an external screen in either case.

[zaghahzag]

although most people never use it, if you ever want or need a big huge fast external raid array, its not really possible with a macbook. With the macbook pro, you can use firewire 800, which with a raid is just a little faster than the internal drive (b/c of the limitation of fw800) or you can go ahead and get a sata card for the expansion slot and have a kick butt array.

The one thing where there is very little practical difference is ni CPU speed. But in all the other aspects of the machine, the MBP is better suited for hard core editing than a macbook.

Also, add to the cost of the MB getting the HD up to the same speed (80$?). If you can find one, a nice compromise might be a refurb mbp - about the same price as a boosted mb, but with a lot more expansion.

[idykenano]

Buy a macbook, for portability and price-to-performance ratio.
When I sit at a desk for a long time, I do prefer to have a >13 inch screen, so I picked up a 19inch monitor at the local Sam's club for $150. I love it.
I do office network maintenance, computational chemistry (calculations and visualizations), large paper writing (>30 pages), itunes constantly, a bit of imovie, all without problems. Upgrade to 4gb of RAM if you go macbook.

[roller]

Based on what I've read from you and others in this thread, I would lean toward the MBP. Sounds to me like you would regret the MB purchase in the end, especially if Snow Leopard leaves the MB wanting. There's a lot to be said for each model. If there is any question, better to go with more machine than less, I say.

[applesbiggestfan]

Hey NSuser, I think you should get a Macbook.

For all your basic work and a bit of development I think a Macbook will be more worth it.
If you get the 2.4Ghz Macbook now it will be very cheap especially with your discount.
I think it will run the next version of OSX easily... All Macs I've used have been fast with OSX and when a new OSX comes out and you get it... if you notice any slowing down just upgrade to 4GBs of RAM.

I think the only thing you should consider between the MB and MBP would be the graphics memory... where the Macbook sucks compared to the Macbook Pros graphics card. But if you wont do too much graphical stuff then I think the Macbooks GPU and RAM will be perfectly sufficient for you.

Get the Macbook, better value and better design, but still packs a punch.

Best regards

[Kyle76]

Something I almost never see mentioned in these discussions is the backlit keyboard of the MBP. That's a feature that I really enjoy, as I often sit outside at night or in a darkened room with the TV on and use my laptop. I really like having the backlit keyboard. I also like the multi-touch touchpad, as I use two-finger swipes for scrolling.

[vmarks]

The nvidia 8600 chipset is something I'd be concerned about. reports of premature failure across manufacturers using this chip in laptops seem to keep cropping up.

[NSUser]

Originally Posted by Kyle76 

Something I almost never see mentioned in these discussions is the backlit keyboard of the MBP. That's a feature that I really enjoy, as I often sit outside at night or in a darkened room with the TV on and use my laptop. I really like having the backlit keyboard. I also like the

Good point, Kyle, and something I hadn't given much thought to. I use the backlit keyboard on my current MPB in pretty much the same way. It's one of those features that I don't often think about, but actually comes in pretty handy when you need it.

Originally Posted by vmarks 

The nvidia 8600 chipset is something I'd be concerned about. reports of premature failure across manufacturers using this chip in laptops seem to keep cropping up.

This was the thing that finally clinched it for me last week. I've decided to go with the MacBook Pro, but I'm going to wait for the next update.

I know that it's always difficult to gauge how bad problems like this really are based solely on support forum postings and news reports, but there have been a sufficient number of problems reported on laptops from different vendors (Apple, Dell, etc.) to make me nervous.

And hey -- I've waited this long...

Thanks again for the input, everyone. It was very much appreciated.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by NSUser 

I know that it's always difficult to gauge how bad problems like this really are based solely on support forum postings and news reports, but there have been a sufficient number of problems reported on laptops from different vendors (Apple, Dell, etc.) to make me nervous.

A $200 million charge on last quarters earnings for exceptional warranty costs is a sign of how bad the problem is.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by mduell 

A $200 million charge on last quarters earnings for exceptional warranty costs is a sign of how bad the problem is.

And it's even worse. nVidia already assigned $250M to cover the cost of this issue. And industry observers are now expecting they will have to double that number over the course of the next half year. This could turn out to be a serious blow to the company. And with new GPUs from ATI like the HD 4870 X2 this is happening at exactly the wrong time for nVidia.

[CharlesS]

So what does one do if one suspects one has been bitten by this issue? My MBP's NVidia card locks up my machine (sometimes requiring a hard reboot) whenever it is tasked at all, and it's driving me nuts. I've even had Exposé cause it once.

[Simon]

Currently it looks like you will have to get Apple to fix it under warranty or AC.

At least until nVidia confirms this on a larger scale and/or Apple starts a extended repair program. We don't have any serial number ranges to check yet. Actually it's not even entirely clear which GPUs are affected. According to nVidia it's only the G84 and G86. But many reports indicate it might also concern other very popular nVidia GPUs like the G92 and G94.