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United Airlines
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P
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Apr 10, 2017, 08:35 AM
 
I knew that flying domestically in the US is no pleasure trip, but this thing takes the cake (from reddit):

Video shows man forcibly removed from United flight from Chicago to Louisville

So United has a full flight and they need to get four employees on it. They offer $400 each to get off, then $800, but nobody accepts. They then bring out a computer to determine who gets bumped. One man selected refuses to leave (he says that he's a doctor with patients to see, but that is nothing we can confirm). United then proceeds to bring in security who knocks the guy out and drag him out. When asked about it in the article, United apologises...for overbooking. Yeah.

Are they absolutely serious? I can guarantee that this little debacle has already cost more than it would have cost United to make a better offer to get volunteers.
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The Final Dakar
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Apr 10, 2017, 09:34 AM
 
Whoops, didn't see this thread. Yeah, they ****ed up and made themselves a PR disaster to save a few hundred bucks. But the physical violence is really appalling.
     
And.reg
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Apr 10, 2017, 10:06 AM
 
Honestly if an airline offers nearly $1000 (if only a check and not a voucher) to have me leave that flight, I would probably accept it and tell my clients "Peh, we're rescheduling."
     
mindwaves
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Apr 10, 2017, 10:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by And.reg View Post
Honestly if an airline offers nearly $1000 (if only a check and not a voucher) to have me leave that flight, I would probably accept it and tell my clients "Peh, we're rescheduling."
Me too. My buy-in is around $600. That being said, United should have made a better offer. That little debacle may cost them millions in lost revenue now. Flying in the US is so scary.
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The Final Dakar
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Apr 10, 2017, 10:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by And.reg View Post
Honestly if an airline offers nearly $1000 (if only a check and not a voucher) to have me leave that flight, I would probably accept it and tell my clients "Peh, we're rescheduling."
Missing the point of the thread much?
     
andi*pandi
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Apr 10, 2017, 11:00 AM
 
That's appalling.

How did they choose him and his wife? Do they really have the right to kick paying customers off the plane for no reason?
The couple who volunteered first probably feel lucky. I wonder if they at least got paid.

smh.
     
The Final Dakar
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Apr 10, 2017, 11:07 AM
 
Yes, I'm sure there's some fine print that's let's them do this.
     
P  (op)
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Apr 10, 2017, 11:15 AM
 
It seems that the computer picks the cheapest ticket without any connections, because they have to pay 4x one-way price as penalty if requested.

Whether they can do this is actually somewhat doubtful. They can deny you boarding, but trying to throw someone off may actually be illegal. Don't get me wrong, refusing to obey the staff when they tell you to leave is illegal and United might make a case out of that as part of retribution against someone who made them look bad, but I am not at all certain they can throw someone off after boarding like this.
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andi*pandi
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Apr 10, 2017, 12:35 PM
 
     
The Final Dakar
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Apr 10, 2017, 12:46 PM
 
Somebody ****ed up bigtime. Or maybe they didn't want to give out that x4
     
P  (op)
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Apr 10, 2017, 01:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Yup, and that was before boarding. I am fine with that - try to buy people out, and if nobody picks it up, someone has to stay. They get 4 times the price of the ticket (up to some max), hotel if they need it, and booked on the next available flight. I have been given the offer to stay volountarily a few times but never accepted it (it didn't get as high as the $800 they were offered here, more like $300).

This is trying to get people off after they have already boarded - and beating them up if they refuse. The guy was beaten bloody and was dragged out while unconscious, to stay another night in a city away from home, with head trauma, cracked glasses and most likely not getting his hold luggage. That settlement better be massive. I almost hope they bring it to a jury trial, I'm envisioning some Rainmaker type of deal here.
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Apr 10, 2017, 05:39 PM
 
He came back on the flight apparently and was taken out on a stretcher. Wow.
     
P  (op)
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Apr 11, 2017, 07:29 AM
 
United is doing absolutely everything wrong here:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/10/unit...lligerent.html

Guys, I realize that the passenger may have broken a rule when he did not obey your staff, but legal ground for evicting him in the first place is shaky at best and the guy who beat up the passenger has already been suspended by the airport. The least you can do right now is to say that you were right to kick him off but that the security officer used too much force.
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mindwaves
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Apr 11, 2017, 07:38 AM
 
I'm not the type to boycott companies for when they do something egregious against others, but I will never ever fly United. I hope others do the same!
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The Final Dakar
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Apr 11, 2017, 09:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
United is doing absolutely everything wrong here:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/10/unit...lligerent.html

Guys, I realize that the passenger may have broken a rule when he did not obey your staff, but legal ground for evicting him in the first place is shaky at best and the guy who beat up the passenger has already been suspended by the airport. The least you can do right now is to say that you were right to kick him off but that the security officer used too much force.
CPD pretending he inadvertently hit his face.
     
subego
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Apr 11, 2017, 12:03 PM
 
I now know this doctor's criminal record. That was quick.
     
The Final Dakar
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Apr 11, 2017, 12:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I now know this doctor's criminal record. That was quick.
He was no angel
     
andi*pandi
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Apr 11, 2017, 12:29 PM
 
fine, make me find the link:

Man removed from United flight has criminal record

on the one hand, it shouldn't matter his record, or that he was a doctor.

On the other, I can see that *with* his record, it would be really important for him to keep his job.
     
BadKosh
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Apr 11, 2017, 02:09 PM
 
Why does the airline overbook anyway. What kind of contract between airline and passenger allows the airline to bail on passengers because THEY overbooked?
     
P  (op)
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Apr 11, 2017, 03:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I now know this doctor's criminal record. That was quick.
So THAT'S what United's PR goons were up to!
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Laminar
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Apr 11, 2017, 04:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Why does the airline overbook anyway. What kind of contract between airline and passenger allows the airline to bail on passengers because THEY overbooked?
Looks like the mainstream media is leading you around by the nose again, the flight was not overbooked. United needed to get 4 crew members on that flight last minute, and after boarding decided they wanted to take people off of the flight.
     
The Final Dakar
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Apr 11, 2017, 05:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Looks like the mainstream media is leading you around by the nose again, the flight was not overbooked. United needed to get 4 crew members on that flight last minute, and after boarding decided they wanted to take people off of the flight.
Wonder if they have fine print to cover that contingency.
     
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Apr 11, 2017, 06:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Why does the airline overbook anyway. What kind of contract between airline and passenger allows the airline to bail on passengers because THEY overbooked?
All airlines routinely overbook. I'm amazed you haven't come across this before. It's because seats are expensive and stupid LIBTARDS are often too busy crying to get to the plane on time so the airlines like to have spare red blooded republicans on hand to help maximise the airlines return on their investment. Anything else is socialism under another name.

If by some crazy chance all the LIBTARDS do get to the plane then the security apparatus has to beat some up until they all learn their lesson.
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
P  (op)
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Apr 12, 2017, 03:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Looks like the mainstream media is leading you around by the nose again, the flight was not overbooked. United needed to get 4 crew members on that flight last minute, and after boarding decided they wanted to take people off of the flight.
Exactly this. United is working hard to make it look like a disagreement over overbooking, where they think they will have some sympathy from regular travelers who know the score. If they made it clear that United was bumping people to get its own staff to Louisville instead of sending them by car, bus or another airline, they would get more of the vitriol they so richly deserve.
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BadKosh
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Apr 12, 2017, 07:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
All airlines routinely overbook. I'm amazed you haven't come across this before. It's because seats are expensive and stupid LIBTARDS are often too busy crying to get to the plane on time so the airlines like to have spare red blooded republicans on hand to help maximise the airlines return on their investment. Anything else is socialism under another name.

If by some crazy chance all the LIBTARDS do get to the plane then the security apparatus has to beat some up until they all learn their lesson.
Real funny Rimmer.

Seems United had promised regulators they world NOT overbook, and did anyway.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Apr 12, 2017, 10:02 AM
 
I thought airlines used standby lists. What happened to that?
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Apr 12, 2017, 10:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Why does the airline overbook anyway. What kind of contract between airline and passenger allows the airline to bail on passengers because THEY overbooked?
Overbooking is completely normal for airlines. Airlines make money, because they are really, really good at statistics and pricing models (just have a look at the prices for a specific connection fluctuate over time, the different booking classes and so forth). They know that a certain percentage of passengers will not take a flight even though they have bought and paid for a ticket. Airlines therefore routinely overbook flights, where they carefully balance the costs of running out of seats (e. g. offering volunteers incentives to take the next flight) with the extra money that they make. Sometimes, they just bump economy class passengers to business or first. There is nothing nefarious with all of this — as long as people have a choice. Here, the story was that a passenger “refused to volunteer” (isn't corporate speak nice?), and United wasn't willing to offer better compensation.
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BadKosh
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Apr 12, 2017, 12:14 PM
 
So you are offered a seat at X price. You pay the money, and they accepted it. They give you some sort of proof you paid. Sounds like a contract to me. So then you arrive and take your seat. Seems like they are following the contract. But then to dump people off when the real issue is incompetent logistics in being unable to get employees to another destination by another means. Singling out someone to get dumped is where they will get bit, right in the wallet.
     
Laminar
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Apr 12, 2017, 12:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
So you are offered a seat at X price. You pay the money, and they accepted it. They give you some sort of proof you paid. Sounds like a contract to me.
Are you trying to imply that a contract exists while ignoring the literal contract that exists?
     
BadKosh
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Apr 12, 2017, 02:22 PM
 
No. Has anyone looked at the recent fine print? I haven't flown in 17 years. I'd be interested.
     
P  (op)
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Apr 12, 2017, 02:33 PM
 
The contract states that they can deny you boarding in case of being overbooked in return for a penalty (4x the one way price, your costs for staying overnight if that is the case, and a seat on the next available flight), but crucially does not say the they can throw people off after boarding. There is also a rule that passengers have to follow instructions from the captain, usually taken to mean any staff, which is where this passenger is in trouble. It certainly doesn't say that the staff can use any amount of force to get people off. United made one error - trying to force someone to exit without having the legal right to do so, while the security officer personally made another - using way too much force. Both are liable for damages.
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BadKosh
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Apr 12, 2017, 02:43 PM
 
So they screwed up because they allowed him to board, THEN tried to remove him.
     
The Final Dakar
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Apr 12, 2017, 03:12 PM
 
Likely, yes.
     
OAW
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Apr 12, 2017, 03:16 PM
 
Over-booking on a full-price refundable ticket seems like a reasonable practice. But if they are over-booking non-refundable tickets then that is just double-dipping any way you slice it.

OAW
     
andi*pandi
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Apr 12, 2017, 03:34 PM
 
Overbooking to ensure a full plane makes financial sense, it is their gamble. What's wrong is dragging people off who don't want to give up their seat. The airline gambles on people taking the $$ to leave. When this doesn't work, you don't drag people off, you sweeten the deal.
     
OAW
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Apr 12, 2017, 05:50 PM
 
Nice gesture. But the victim is still going to sue the hell out of United.

United Airlines to refund fares to all Flight 3411 passengers | USAToday.com

OAW
     
OreoCookie
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Apr 12, 2017, 07:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
So you are offered a seat at X price. You pay the money, and they accepted it. They give you some sort of proof you paid. Sounds like a contract to me. So then you arrive and take your seat. Seems like they are following the contract. But then to dump people off when the real issue is incompetent logistics in being unable to get employees to another destination by another means. Singling out someone to get dumped is where they will get bit, right in the wallet.
Indeed, there is a contract, and every time you book online, you tick a box, saying that you accept the Terms and Conditions. Among other things, these stipulate under what circumstances the airline can refuse to let you board and sets penalties for breach of contract. The exact amounts may vary also by location, e. g. the EU has regulations that mandate airlines to cover hotel and meals if people don't end up flying (be it due to overbooking or due to a mechanical issue with the plane).

Of course, United's behavior is unacceptable, they should have simply offered more for people to voluntarily give up their seat. The extra few hundred dollars they would have had to shell out certainly don't compare to the bad PR they got in the process. A friend of mine was on a flight between the US and England, and they had to make an emergency landing on a small island in the Atlantic. She received traveller's cheques worth $2000 or so plus a free round trip for the inconvenience. That's a good way to handle the matter proactively.
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Apr 13, 2017, 03:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Indeed, there is a contract, and every time you book online, you tick a box, saying that you accept the Terms and Conditions. Among other things, these stipulate under what circumstances the airline can refuse to let you board and sets penalties for breach of contract. The exact amounts may vary also by location, e. g. the EU has regulations that mandate airlines to cover hotel and meals if people don't end up flying (be it due to overbooking or due to a mechanical issue with the plane).

Of course, United's behavior is unacceptable, they should have simply offered more for people to voluntarily give up their seat. The extra few hundred dollars they would have had to shell out certainly don't compare to the bad PR they got in the process. A friend of mine was on a flight between the US and England, and they had to make an emergency landing on a small island in the Atlantic. She received traveller's cheques worth $2000 or so plus a free round trip for the inconvenience. That's a good way to handle the matter proactively.
An important distinction is that United offers you a travel voucher. I.e. you have to fly their shitty airline again (where they can pull the same shenanigans). They should have offered cash, and more than the federally mandated 4x the flight up to 1350 (in this specific case, could be lower depending on when they get you there). The only way I would get off a plane in that situation is cash (which is what federal law mandates for involuntarily denied booking). People take vouchers not knowing they could get cash, and once they do there is no recourse.

In addition, they must present you the written guidelines at the time they deny you the boarding (at the gate, not on the plane).

You are spot on that denied boarding is not the same as kicking off the plane.

Also, this was not an overbooking. Overbooking means they sold more seats than there were. The 4 employees they were trying to get on the flight were not "booked" anymore than the captain was. There were other options for United who simply does not give a flying **** about their customers. The CEO said as much until it dawned on him that we all have the internet and are smarter than rocks. He needs to go.

The police had no justification to use physical force as no crime was being committed, save for the several committed by United.

I will never fly United again. They were my backup airline for my work travel (southwest being my primary).

The CEO's response was appalling, and only when the PR nightmare turned even more nightmarish did he change his tune. **** him. His customers aren't forced to fly his crappy airline. They will go under, and we should let it, no, encourage it to happen. The whole industry is watching.

The lawsuit should not only name the airline, but also the federal thugs posing as "police" for illegally using force under the color of law, when infact the man had every legal right to do what he did as it was United that was afoul of the law. The airlines can deny you boarding for overbooking, but his boarding was not denied, nor was the plane overbooked.
     
Snow-i
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Apr 13, 2017, 04:00 AM
 
Also,

this has to be the most hilariously poorly timed app update in history

     
Atheist
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Apr 13, 2017, 07:27 AM
 
They should have just "canceled" the flight, got everyone off the plane, "uncanceled" the flight and boarded the 4 employees first. Problem solved.
     
P  (op)
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Apr 13, 2017, 07:51 AM
 
Or offered enough money to get some volunteers. Would have been much cheaper than what is happening now.

They could have emptied the entire plane without the pretense of cancelling anything - and I think would have been legally mandated too, at least in Europe, because they need to check that none of the passengers who were kicked off left their carry-on - but it's pretty clear that the people on the ground did not know what they were doing.
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Waragainstsleep
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Apr 13, 2017, 10:06 AM
 
What they should have done is found another way for their staff to get where they were needed or recruited some other staff at or near the destination. If you screw up, you eat the costs.
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OAW
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Apr 13, 2017, 11:34 AM
 
United has to realize this can never go to trial. The company should just cut a substantial 7 figure check now and try to put this in the rear-view mirror ASAP.

United Airlines passenger in video suffered concussion, broken nose, lost two teeth | USAToday.com

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The Final Dakar
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Apr 13, 2017, 11:43 AM
 
Read the lawyer claims the guy got a concussion and lost two front teeth. Manhandling old people never goes well. Too brittle.
     
BadKosh
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Apr 13, 2017, 11:48 AM
 
Perhaps United should have to subsidize Amtrak for 5 years.
     
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Apr 13, 2017, 07:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
An important distinction is that United offers you a travel voucher. I.e. you have to fly their shitty airline again (where they can pull the same shenanigans). They should have offered cash, and more than the federally mandated 4x the flight up to 1350 (in this specific case, could be lower depending on when they get you there).
My friend who took an unexpected vacation on an island in the Atlantic, she received American Express traveller's cheques. Airlines will typically resist booking flights on other airlines (where other means airlines outside of their alliance of airlines such as Star Alliance or Sky Team). This is understandable.
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Also, this was not an overbooking. Overbooking means they sold more seats than there were. The 4 employees they were trying to get on the flight were not "booked" anymore than the captain was. There were other options for United who simply does not give a flying **** about their customers. The CEO said as much until it dawned on him that we all have the internet and are smarter than rocks. He needs to go.
I think you mistook my post to mean that I support what United has done. I don't, United was wrong to force someone off the plane after giving them a seat and letting them board. I was merely explaining that overbooking is normal.
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Apr 14, 2017, 01:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Perhaps United should have to subsidize Amtrak for 5 years.
That's a great idea. Half the people riding Amtrak have a concussion and missing teeth already.
     
turtle777
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Apr 15, 2017, 03:54 PM
 
So, let me summarize:

Doa is an asshole that holds the whole plane hostage by refusing to give up his seat.
United mishandles the situation.
Doa wins the lawsuit lottery.
All other United customer pay for his windfall.

I love Amaraca.

-t
     
The Final Dakar
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Apr 15, 2017, 07:26 PM
 
Well, someone had to defend the poor corporation.
     
The Final Dakar
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Apr 16, 2017, 02:26 AM
 
Didn't see it mentioned, but I read that he was half-way through a flight from LA. So not only had he already boarded, he had boarded in ****ing LA. Absurd.
     
 
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