[Cody Dawg]

Someone just emailed me this and it is truly amazing:

STATE OF FLORIDA

COUNTY OF PINELLAS



BEFORE ME the undersigned authority personally appeared HEIDI LAW who being first duly sworn deposes and says:

1. My name is Heidi Law, I am over the age of 18 years, and make this statement on personal information.

2. I worked as a Certified Nursing Assistant at the Palm Gardens nursing home from March, 1997 to mid-summer of 1997. While I was employed at Palm Gardens, occasionally I took care of Theresa Schiavo. Generally, I worked the 3 p.m. to 11 p.m. shift, but occasionally also would work a double shift, until 7 a.m. the following morning.

3. At Palm Gardens, most of the patient care was provided by the CNAs, so I was in a good position to judge Terri�s condition and observe her reactions. Terri was noticeable, because she was the youngest patient at Palm Gardens.

4. I know that Terri did not receive routine physical therapy or any other kind of therapy. I was personally aware of orders for rehabilitation that were not being carried out. Even though they were ordered, Michael would stop them. Michael ordered that Terri receive no rehabilitation or range of motion therapy. I and Olga would give Terri range of motion anyway, but we knew we were endangering our jobs by doing so. We usually did this behind closed doors, we were so fearful of being caught. Our hearts would race and we were always looking out for Michael, because we knew that, not only would Michael take his anger out on us, but he would take it out more on Terri. We spoke of this many times.

5. Terri had very definite likes and dislikes. Olga and I used to call Terri �Fancy Pants,� because she was so particular about certain things. She just adored her baths, and was so happy afterward when she was all clean, smelling sweet from the lotion her mother provided, and wearing the soft nightgowns her mother laundered for her. Terri definitely did not like the taste of the teeth-cleaning swabs or the mouthwash we used. She liked to have her hair combed. She did not like being tucked in, and especially hated it if her legs were tightly tucked. You would always tell when Terri had a bowel movement, as she seem agitated and would sort of �scoot� to get away from it.

6. Every day, Terri was gotten up after lunch and sat in a chair all afternoon. When Terri was in bed, she very much preferred to lie on her right side and look out the window. We always said that she was watching for her mother. It was very obvious that her mother was her favorite person in the whole world.

7. I worked side-by-side with another CNA named Olga and could tell that she and Terri were especially close. Olga took a definite personal interest in Terri, and Terri responded to her. I could tell that Terri was very satisfied and happy with Olga�s attentions to her.

8. When Olga was talking with Terri, Terri would follow Olga with her eyes. I have no doubt in my mind that Terri understood what Olga was saying to her. I could tell a definite difference between the way Terri responded to Olga and the way she reacted to me, until she got used to my taking care of her. Initially, she �clammed up� with me, the way she would with anyone she did not know or was not familiar or comfortable with. It took about the fourth or fifth time taking care of her alone, without Olga, that Terri became relaxed and cooperative and non-resistant with me.

9. Terri reacted very well to seeing a picture of her mother, which was in her room. Many times when I came on duty it would be lying face down where she could not see it.

10. At least three times during any shift where I took care of Terri, I made sure to give Terri a wet washcloth filled with ice chips, to keep her mouth moistened. I personally saw her swallow the ice water and never saw her gag. Olga and I frequently put orange juice or apple juice in her washcloth to give her something nice to taste, which made her happy. On three or four occasions I personally fed Terri small mouthfuls of Jello, which she was able to swallow and enjoyed immensely. I did not do it more often only because I was so afraid of being caught by Michael.

11. On one occasion Michael Schiavo arrived with his girlfriend, and they entered Terri�s room together. I heard Michael tell his girlfriend that Terri was in a persistent vegetative state and was dying. After they left, Olga told me that Terri was extremely agitated and upset, and wouldn�t react to anyone. When she was upset, which was usually the case after Michael was there, she would withdraw for hours. We were convinced that he was abusing her, and probably saying cruel, terrible things to her because she would be so upset when he left.

12. In the past, I have taken care of comatose patients, including those in a persistent vegetative state. While it is true that those patients will flinch or make sounds occasionally, they don�t do it as a reaction to someone on a constant basis who is taking care of them, the way I saw Terri do.

13. I witnessed a priest visiting Terri a couple of times. Terri would become quiet when he prayed with her. She couldn�t bow her head because of her stiff neck, but she would still try. During the prayer, she would keep her eyes closed, opening them afterward. She laughed at jokes he told her. I definitely know that Terri �is in there.�

14. The Palm Gardens staff, myself included, were just amazed that a �Do Not Resuscitate� order had been put on Terri�s chart, considering her age and her obvious cognitive awareness of her surroundings.

15. During the time I cared for Terri, she formed words. I have heard her say �mommy� from time to time, and �momma,� and she also said �help me� a number of times. She would frequently make noises like she was trying to talk. Other staff members talked about her verbalizations.

16. Several times when Michael visited Terri during my shift, he went into her room alone and closed the door. This worried me because I didn�t trust Michael. When he left, Terri was very agitated, was extremely tense with tightened fists and some times had a cold sweat. She was much less responsive than usual and would just stare out the window, her eyes kind of glassy. It would take much more time and effort than usual to work her hands open to clean her palms.

17. I was told by supervisory staff that Michael was Terri�s legal guardian, and that it didn�t matter what the parents or the doctors or nurses wanted, just do what Michael told you to do or you will lose your job. Michael would override the orders of the doctors and nurses to make sure Terri got no treatment. Among the things that Terri was deprived of by Michael�s orders were any kind of testing, dental care or stimulation. I was ordered by my supervisors to limit my time with Terri. I recall telling my supervisor that Terri seemed abnormally warm to the touch. I was told to pull her covers down, rather than to take her temperature. As far as I know, Terri never left her room. The only stimulation she had was looking out the window and watching things, and the radio, which Michael insisted be left on one particular station. She had a television, and there was a sign below it saying not to change the channel. This was because of Michael�s orders.

18. As a CNA, I wanted every piece of information I could get about my patients. I never had access to medical records as a CNA, but it was part of my job duties to write my observations down on sheets of paper, which I turned over to the nurse at the nurses station for inclusion in the patients charts. In the case of Terri Schiavo, I felt that my notes were thrown out without even being read. There were trash cans at the nurses stations that we were supposed to empty each shift, and I often saw the notes in them. I made extensive notes and listed all of Terri�s behaviors, but there was never any apparent follow up consistent with her responsiveness.

19. I discussed this situation with other personnel at Palm Gardens, particularly with Olga, and another CNA, an older black man named Ewan Morris. We all discussed the fact that we could be fired for reporting that Terri was responsive, and especially for giving her treatment. The advice among the staff was �don�t do nothin�, don�t see nothin� and don�t say nothin�.� It was particularly distressing that we always had to be afraid that if Michael got upset, he would take his anger out on Terri.

20. I recall an incident when Olga became very upset because Terri started to get a sore spot, because it might lead to a bedsore. Michael was told about it but didn�t seem to care. He didn�t complain about it all, in fact, saying �she doesn�t know the difference.� When Terri would get a UTI or was sick, Michael�s mood would improve.



FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NAUGHT.





Heidi Law, Affiant

[bstone]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
bstone, you are the conjecture king, I have to hand it to you.

Can you please stop with the ad hominem.

Did my reply to your "informed friend" post bother you in some way? Were my facts incorrect? Did my statements lack precedent? Was I unclear?

I really would enjoy to return to an intellectual debate.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
bstone, you are the conjecture king, I have to hand it to you.

Pot, meet kettle.

Cody/iWrite, this case has been dragged out for years, with many people much more educated on the specifics of it than you and a "well-connected" radio talk show host, including medical professionals who've forgotten more than you'll ever know about the human brain, and your repeating the same conjecture, which you then accuse everyone else of doing, really serves no point. The Schiavos are naturally going to want to deny reality, because that's their daughter and they are emotionally attached by the strongest bond possible, but it doesn't change the facts of the case, which are that she is not rehabilitatable, and that she does not respond to stimuli, despite what her family wants to believe.

[InterfaceGuy]

Dr. William Hammesfahr says he helps people like Terri recover every day.

Last year, he explained that, after examining Terri, he believed that she could eventually eat and drink on her own. He also said he believes Terri would be able to talk and have good use of one arm and one hand should be given proper rehabilitative treatment.

Hammesfahr also said he thought Terri would eventually be able to transfer herself from a wheelchair to a bed.

Terri Schiavo Can Still be Rehabilitated, Nobel Prize-Nominated Doctor Says

Terri's parents have been trying to get TV cameras in her room so people can see her current condition, and see that she is still "in there", but Michael won't allow it. How anyone can see the actions of this man and say he is just trying to do what is best for Terri is beyond me.

Also, Diane Meyer, a friend of Terri, testified that in 1982 Terri said she did not agree with Karen Ann Quinlan's parents decision to take her off life support. The testimony was not allowed because Judge Greer believed that Karen died in 1976, therefore Terri would not have been old enough to make that type of decision. Later it was realized that Karen died in 1985, so it was entirely possible that Terri said that in 1982, at the age of 18.

[InterfaceGuy]

Originally posted by KarlG:
Pot, meet kettle.

Cody/iWrite, this case has been dragged out for years, with many people much more educated on the specifics of it than you and a "well-connected" radio talk show host, including medical professionals who've forgotten more than you'll ever know about the human brain, and your repeating the same conjecture, which you then accuse everyone else of doing, really serves no point. The Schiavos are naturally going to want to deny reality, because that's their daughter and they are emotionally attached by the strongest bond possible, but it doesn't change the facts of the case, which are that she is not rehabilitatable, and that she does not respond to stimuli, despite what her family wants to believe.

Ok, if you are wanting to hear from people who know more than any of us on the human brain, then read affidvaits of doctors who have looked at Terri. They are all down the right side column on her family's website. And these are all from testing performed this month.

http://www.terrisfight.org/documents.html

Edit: After reading through all of these it looks like these doctors didnt' actually examine Terri. Still, my point was, these doctors know more than we do about how the brain functions, and they think there is reason to try to help her.

[OldManMac]

We can go on and on about this, and the last thing I'm going to say on this is that the doctors and links you pointed out are hardly impartial.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by InterfaceGuy:
Dr. William Hammesfahr says he helps people like Terri recover every day.

That's because he's a charlatan. Nobel Prize nominations are kept secret for 50 years. He claims to have been nominated because his Congressman sent the Nobel Committee a letter. That's not how one is nominated for the Nobel Prize. Otherwise, my mother could write a letter and nominate me for the Nobel Prize. I would not send my dog to the guy.

http://www.hnionline.com/

More:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...Tests/tcd.html

Also, Diane Meyer, a friend of Terri, testified that in 1982 Terri said she did not agree with Karen Ann Quinlan's parents decision to take her off life support. The testimony was not allowed because Judge Greer believed that Karen died in 1976, therefore Terri would not have been old enough to make that type of decision. Later it was realized that Karen died in 1985, so it was entirely possible that Terri said that in 1982, at the age of 18.

The testimony was allowed, it was just deemed to lack credibility. Among other things, the woman in question contradicted a deposition that she had given shortly before the trial, and her description was inconsistent with the time frame. The judge was incorrect in stating that Quinlan had died in 1976, but it didn't change the result - Quinlan was removed from life support in 1976, and was out of the news well before 1982.

We're talking about a conservative Christian judge, not a right-to-die activist. He considered the testimony of a variety of people. It's all there in his opinion if you care to read it.

People need to stop buying into dishonest crap of the sort that iWrite/Cody Dawg continues to spread. It's despicable.

[sideus]

Congress ought to be more concerned with sickos murdering and raping kids and other issues that affect all Americans.

[Cadaver]

Originally posted by sideus:
Congress ought to be more concerned with sickos murdering and raping kids and other issues that effect all Americans.

[popstand]

This thread is quickly devolving into a Fox News telecast. Citing anonymous "well-connected" sources, and finding a quack doctor to support your point of view is not at all credible. Nor is information "from an e-mail I got the other day." I'd guess there's about 5 or 6 major factual errors over the last two pages of this thread. I'm also guessing, that if these are widely circulated internet innuenedo, Snopes will shortly be all over these supposed "truths." Also, I'm still waiting for a link to a news report, affidavit, whatever, that says Michael Schiavo was cheating on his wife before her brain injury.

This is all just so sad I can barely stand it. What reasonable person would want to live this way? Shouldn't there be some level of implied consent here? Finally, please no more comparisions to people who are physically disabled but otherwise have rich internal intellectual lives and social lives. It's clear from all the credible medical testimony (emphasis on credible) that Terri is lost for good. My mother had ALS and there's a major difference.

Thank you ZigZag, for your tireless, and much appreciated (by me at least) efforts. Your patience is approaching superhuman.

[bstone]

Originally posted by popstand:
This thread is quickly devolving into a Fox News telecast. Citing anonymous "well-connected" sources, and finding a quack doctor to support your point of view is not at all credible. Nor is information "from an e-mail I got the other day." I'd guess there's about 5 or 6 major factual errors over the last two pages of this thread. I'm also guessing, that if these are widely circulated internet innuenedo, Snopes will shortly be all over these supposed "truths." Also, I'm still waiting for a link to a news report, affidavit, whatever, that says Michael Schiavo was cheating on his wife before her brain injury.

This is all just so sad I can barely stand it. What reasonable person would want to live this way? Shouldn't there be some level of implied consent here? Finally, please no more comparisions to people who are physically disabled but otherwise have rich internal intellectual lives and social lives. It's clear from all the credible medical testimony (emphasis on credible) that Terri is lost for good. My mother had ALS and there's a major difference.

Thank you ZigZag, for your tireless, and much appreciated (by me at least) efforts. Your patience is approaching superhuman.

[Cody Dawg]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush has signed legislation transferring jurisdiction of the Terri Schiavo case to a U.S. court.

His signature followed a 203-58 vote in the U.S. House early Monday morning approving the bill.

"Today, I signed into law a bill that will allow federal courts to hear a claim by or on behalf of Terri Schiavo for violation of her rights relating to the withholding or withdrawal of food, fluids, or medical treatment necessary to sustain her life," a statement from the president said.

"In cases like this one, where there are serious questions and substantial doubts, our society, our laws, and our courts should have a presumption in favor of life."

Following the vote, Bob Schindler spoke with CNN's Bob Franken a short time after visiting his daughter in the Pinellas Park, Florida hospice where she is a patient.

"I asked her if she was ready to take a little ride, and I told her that we were going to take her for a little trip and take her outside and get her some breakfast, and that got a big smile out of her face, so help me God," he said.

"So, she seemed to be very pleased and we're pleased and we're very thankful for both the House and the Senate for passing this bill and literally saving Terri's life."

This really REALLY made my morning!

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by InterfaceGuy:
Edit: After reading through all of these it looks like these doctors didnt' actually examine Terri. Still, my point was, these doctors know more than we do about how the brain functions, and they think there is reason to try to help her.

Can it also not be assumed that the doctors who are saying she will not wake up also know more than we do about how the brain functions and have the added advantage of having actually examined her?

[Mithras]

I have a question about this "saving Terri's life" bill. (Did you know that this was the first time President Bush has ever interrupted a vacation to return to Washington? Amazing but true!)

As far as I can tell, all this bill does is bounce the case from Florida state courts to Federal courts. While the Republican leadership is busy patting itself on the back for saving Terri's life, why do they have any confidence that a Federal court will rule in the parents' favor? I can see that this action is likely to get an injunction, keeping the feeding tube in while the court reviews the case. But beyond that, why are they saying things like "in cases with a dispute, the courts should make a presumption for life" when the courts have yet to rule?

In the meantime, an ABC poll of Americans finds that they support removing the tube 63%-28%, 70% say it is inappropriate for Congress to intervene, and by 67%-19% they say Congressional leaders are acting out of politics rather than for Terri for the principles involved.

54% of self-described conservatives support removing the feeding tube. Even among evangelical Protestants, 46% support removing the tube, and 44% oppose. And conservative Republicans oppose involving the Federal courts 57% to 41%.

So it seems that in every sector of Americans -- except, perhaps, the most fervent pro-life activists -- people want (a) Congress to leave this case alone (b) to allow Terri to go to rest.

[bstone]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Can it also not be assumed that the doctors who are saying she will not wake up also know more than we do about how the brain functions and have the added advantage of having actually examined her?

When debating with right-wing, fundamentalist Christians who are undeniably closed-minded, this hardly matters.

I lament how sick and twisted this entire affair has become. Politics should stay out of this. I am seriously nauseated.

[Nicko]

Is it just me or does this topic belong in the 'Only in America' folder.

[Cody Dawg]

That's funny, Nicko.

Yes, this case may only be temporary, but guess what?

Her parents are now going to get trained therapists involved and people who can truly assess her situation.

Also, and I LOVE this, they are going to be made temporary guardians of her instead of Michael Schiavo. That is just awesome. This way they can get some people in there to help her.

I am very happy for them.



By the way, there were Democrats that also voted FOR this bill.

[Cody Dawg]

Hey, Nicko: I see you're in Nairobi!

Is the Trattoria Italian restaurant still there? Oh. My. Gosh. Their food was SO good.

Also, how about the Carnivore restaurant on the outskirts of town there? I love that place too. Whenever I would go there (part of my job) I'd stay at the Fairview and drive out to the Carnivore. I love Nairobi. Don't know when I'll be back, but I'll be back there sooner or later only I'll be on vacation instead.

[bstone]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
That's funny, Nicko.

Yes, this case may only be temporary, but guess what?

Her parents are now going to get trained therapists involved and people who can truly assess her situation.

Because years of indepdendent physicians all confirming the same thing obviously didn't prove anything.

Also, and I LOVE this, they are going to be made temporary guardians of her instead of Michael Schiavo. That is just awesome. This way they can get some people in there to help her.

I am very happy for them.

And it's great that the government is sticking its nose into a personal, private, privlidged family medical matter [sic].

By the way, there were Democrats that also voted FOR this bill.

And that demonstrates what?

[Cody Dawg]

This entire outcome demonstrates that people with sane and compassionate sensibilities are back in control of preserving life, that's what it demonstrates.

[bstone]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
This entire outcome demonstrates that people with sane and compassionate sensibilities are back in control of preserving life, that's what it demonstrates.

You mean spending millions and million of dollars of tax-payer money to "save" one clinically brain dead woman?

What about the million of uninsured, starving, diseased, dying people in the world?! Why don't those people with "sane and compassionate sensibilities" deal with the genocide in Darfur?

This is just another pathetic example of how fundamentalist, right-wing Christianity pervades deeply into the ranks of politics. Yet another sad demonstration of politicians chewing on the wrong things at the wrong time, when there can be real work done.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Mithras:
I have a question about this "saving Terri's life" bill. (Did you know that this was the first time President Bush has ever interrupted a vacation to return to Washington? Amazing but true!)

As far as I can tell, all this bill does is bounce the case from Florida state courts to Federal courts. While the Republican leadership is busy patting itself on the back for saving Terri's life, why do they have any confidence that a Federal court will rule in the parents' favor? I can see that this action is likely to get an injunction, keeping the feeding tube in while the court reviews the case. But beyond that, why are they saying things like "in cases with a dispute, the courts should make a presumption for life" when the courts have yet to rule?

In the meantime, an ABC poll of Americans finds that they support removing the tube 63%-28%, 70% say it is inappropriate for Congress to intervene, and by 67%-19% they say Congressional leaders are acting out of politics rather than for Terri for the principles involved.

54% of self-described conservatives support removing the feeding tube. Even among evangelical Protestants, 46% support removing the tube, and 44% oppose. And conservative Republicans oppose involving the Federal courts 57% to 41%.

So it seems that in every sector of Americans -- except, perhaps, the most fervent pro-life activists -- people want (a) Congress to leave this case alone (b) to allow Terri to go to rest.

There's no guarantee that a federal court will rule any differently. But at least a second judge will look at the facts afresh. In the state courts, one judge looked at the facts. All the appeals were only empowered to review him on his application of the law. (Facts are determined by the factfinder -- a jury, or in this case, a judge -- that factfinder's determination are very hard to overturn).

I can't see any reason to oppose a second opinion, and getting that second opinion satisfies my primary objection. It still leaves the final decision with the courts. Only these are federal courts, which is where civil rights cases are often brought in preference to state courts which (rightly or wrongly) are often deemed to be less sympathetic to federal civil rights.

On the opinion poll, it's basically irrelevant. We don't govern by opinion poll. That's not just because that isn't how our goverment works, but also because they are notoriously inaccurate. Just ask "president Kerry."

[Cody Dawg]

You brought up an important point: Fresh eyes reviewing this case.

If the federal courts deem her "brain dead" after reviews then I am willing to accept their decision. I may not agree with it, but I would accept it. I cannot accept that a blind judge (Judge Greer) ruled to end her life.

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by bstone:
This is just another pathetic example of how fundamentalist, right-wing Christianity pervades deeply into the ranks of politics.

it is moments like these where i can actually understand why somebody would fly a plane into a building.

american politics has reached an all time low. welcome to the "brain dead" empire. at least terri will be in good company.

/ sorry to all the decent folks who lost someone on 9/11, - but this sh1t just really upsets me.

[Cody Dawg]

roberto blanco said
it is moments like these where i can actually understand why somebody would fly a plane into a building.

You know, you're an *ss to say something like that. ANY respect I had for you is completely gone.

[Mithras]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
On the opinion poll, it's basically irrelevant. We don't govern by opinion poll. That's not just because that isn't how our goverment works, but also because they are notoriously inaccurate. Just ask "president Kerry."

\

Wha? And we don't govern by Congress cherry-picking cases from state court that have been reviewed a dozen times and declined by the Supreme Court, either. But when politics in its rawest form comes into play, then of course public opinion matters.

And I think it certainly is interesting and worth highlighting that Congress is obviously not acting out of a groundswell of public opinion in this case, but in deference to (or fear of) a small band of vocal pro-life activists.

"notoriously inaccurate" my foot. 70% disapproval of the Congressional action is, shall we say, outside of the margin of error.

This bill is a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham. And the vast majority of people in America know it.

[Mithras]

Anyway my original point with regard to the Federal "de novo" review of the case is that it's rather bizarre for the Republican leadership to sell this as a "saving Terri" bill, when for all they know, in another month a Federal judge will rule that the feeding tube should be removed, in respect of her wishes.

Won't that have them looking rather bad? Since obviously they and their supporters motivated by the outcome they want -- Terri to be turned over to her parents and the tube kept for the rest of her natural life -- rather than by any particular judicial procedure.

Can someone explain how this is a savvy political move on their part? I'm just confused about this aspect of it.

[Cody Dawg]

Only time will tell and it is probably going to be longer than a month.

Also, since the Schiavos now have some control over this issue, I'll bet they get in there with some independent rehab specialists and what they say and see can be documented and presented to the federal courts.

Now, this would be interesting: Video coming out of Terri saying "Momma" or another word. Something a "vegetable" could not do.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Mithras:
\

Wha? And we don't govern by Congress cherry-picking cases from state court that have been reviewed a dozen times and declined by the Supreme Court, either. But when politics in its rawest form comes into play, then of course public opinion matters.

And I think it certainly is interesting and worth highlighting that Congress is obviously not acting out of a groundswell of public opinion in this case, but in deference to (or fear of) a small band of vocal pro-life activists.

"notoriously inaccurate" my foot. 70% disapproval of the Congressional action is, shall we say, outside of the margin of error.

This bill is a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham. And the vast majority of people in America know it.

It's a private members bill. By definition, private members bills cherry pick minor and isolated issues. The last one I looked at was a payment to the family of a child who fell out of a window in military housing. That's not a national issue either.

I explained already that the review created by this bill is different from the reviews that have already taken place in Florida state courts. This allows for new findings of facts, so that the facts can be determined afresh. The Florida courts were only reviewing the judge's application of law. And of course, the Florida Supreme Court invalidated a law passed by the Florida legislature aimed at protecting her.

There is nothing improper here, and if the facts are as clear cut and unambiguous as you are all claiming, you will still get to see her die. Only at least her rights will have been fully adjudicated (hopefully). Hopefully, also she will get a guardian ad litem to argue her case in court, a normal protection I understand she was denied by the Florida courts.

If you think this is such a travesty, then by all means run the next election on the issue. But I don't think that would be smart. 47 Democrats in the House of Representatives voted for the bill. It looks to me like concern that Schivo's life was being ended without due process is not limited to the pro-life movement.

[BlueSky]

Originally posted by Mithras:
Anyway my original point with regard to the Federal "de novo" review of the case is that it's rather bizarre for the Republican leadership to sell this as a "saving Terri" bill, when for all they know, in another month a Federal judge will rule that the feeding tube should be removed, in respect of her wishes.

Won't that have them looking rather bad? Since obviously they and their supporters motivated by the outcome they want -- Terri to be turned over to her parents and the tube kept for the rest of her natural life -- rather than by any particular judicial procedure.

Can someone explain how this is a savvy political move on their part? I'm just confused about this aspect of it.

It doesn't matter ultimately what a Fed judge will decide. The point is, the wacked-out red-state congressional yahoos will be seen by their minions as super heroes, good christians who stood up for the "defenseless". If a Fed judge orders the tubes removed, the yahoos will still be seen by many as perpetrating good american family values and all that good sh1t. It's a win-win deal. People will remember that at the polls.

Incidentally, have I mentioned lately that this country is totally f*cking insane? YeeHaa!

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
You know, you're an *ss to say something like that. ANY respect I had for you is completely gone.

considering all the mindless drivel you have posted here in the last few days, i don't give two sh1ts and three whooping fu<ks what you respect.

'important thing is people like you will NEVER EVER have a say in anything where i live (i.e. anywhere except 'merrykah, aka jesusnaziland)

[Mithras]

chill out roberto. talking about driving planes into buildings and throwing around words like jesusnaziland from Germany of all places won't win you any friends here, even among people like me that agree with you on 99.9% of the issues.

[Cody Dawg]

roberto blanco: Whatever. You're on my ignore-for-life list. Anyone who thinks it's okay that planes flown into buildings can be justified is a sicko.



A piece of advice? Don't post here if it causes you so much anguish reading our "drivel."

[Millennium]

Originally posted by roberto blanco:
considering all the mindless drivel you have posted here in the last few days, i don't give two sh1ts and three whooping fu<ks what you respect.

Would you give one sh1t and two whooping fu<ks?

'important thing is people like you will NEVER EVER have a say in anything where i live (i.e. anywhere except 'merrykah, aka jesusnaziland)

Get a living will, and they won't have a say here either. The entire point of this case is that there is no reliable way of determining her wishes. Put your own wishes in writing, and you will quite neatly keep that situation from ever happenning to you.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by Mithras:
I have a question about this "saving Terri's life" bill. (Did you know that this was the first time President Bush has ever interrupted a vacation to return to Washington? Amazing but true!)

As far as I can tell, all this bill does is bounce the case from Florida state courts to Federal courts. While the Republican leadership is busy patting itself on the back for saving Terri's life, why do they have any confidence that a Federal court will rule in the parents' favor? I can see that this action is likely to get an injunction, keeping the feeding tube in while the court reviews the case. But beyond that, why are they saying things like "in cases with a dispute, the courts should make a presumption for life" when the courts have yet to rule?

Florida law already makes a presumption in favor of life. That's why the trial court was required to meet certain standards of proof. The reason the Republicans are saying this is because it's such a great opportunity for grandstanding.

[asd]

I have been following this story and as a physician (cardilogist) I wanted to clear up some misconceptions and issues. As I practice in Texas, there may be some small differences in the law, but all states have similar laws.

There main issue here is THE RIGHT TO REFUSE MEDICAL TREATMENT. All "competent", adult persons have the right to refuse any form of medical treatment, including life-saving or life-sustaining treatment. For example, when I was in medical school, I took care of a Jehova's Whitness patient who refused blood transfusions and died because of it. I have taken care of Christian Scienctist who refuse chemotherapy for their cancer. I have taken care of many cardiac patients who have refused emergent, life-saving angioplasty. The supreme court has weighed in and has agreed that any comptent adult can refuse medical treatment.

The supreme court has also ruled that providing nourishment/water through a feeding tube is a form of medical treatment (it requires a physician's order) that can be withdrawn just like any other form of medical treatment.

Now the other issue is who is to make medical decisions for you should you be unable to to express your wishes for yourself. This is a major, major problem because in my experience, most American's do not prepare adequately for this situation. (I have taken care of elderly patents with terminal cancer who did not talk to their family about end of life issues.)

In Texas, and I would assume in Florida, there is a list of people who are to act on behalf of the incapacitated patient.

1. If the patient had prepared an advanved directive (more commonly called a "living will," then the physicians are to act according to the wishes outlined there.

2. Some people appoint a medical power of attorney (POA) who is designted to make medcial decisions on behalf of the incapacitated patient.

3. Next is the Spouce.

4. Next is a competent, adult child.

5. Next is a paent.

6. Next is a sibling.

Now since Terri did not have an advanced directive or POA, the spouce is designated the one to make these decisions, including the decisions to REFUSE MEDICAL TREATMENT. This makes sense as the spouse should be the one most likely to know the wishes of the patient. I want to emphasise that anyone making making medical decisions for another is to act in a way that the PATIENT would want to be treated, not how u want to treat the patient.

Now Michael feels that his wife would not want to live this way and SHE would want the removal of the tube feedings. Now before life-sustaining treatments can be withdrawn, certain criterion must be met. I am not sure of the specificsm, but in a practical sense, the patint must be "brain dead," be in a "persistent vegetative state" or have an irreversible, terminal condition.

In this case, there is some controversy about wheather Terri is in a persitent vegetative state. I don't know this case, nor have I examined Terri or her records, so how could I know. But neither do any of you, or anyone in Congress, or any physician who has not examined her. It is up to physicians to decide this. From what i can tell, many doctors, and many judges over the years have concluded that she is in a persistent vegetative state. We have to rely on the system to work. This has gone on for YEARS, and if there was a doctor who, after examining Terri and her records, felt that there was a chance for recovery, then the court would have to weigh that. But from what i can tell, that is not the case.

It is very disurbing and frightening to me that the Congress is getting involved in this. I an not very political (didnt vote for either Bush or Kerry) but it seems that the christian right has a huge amount of political clout now and the more secular politicians are affraid to go against them.

I hope i have clafified some of the issues. Mainly i hope that people learn from this fiasco and either prepare a living will, appoint a medical power of attourney, or most importantly TALK TO YOUR FAMILY about what YOU WANT to be done in end of life situations.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by asd:
Now the other issue is who is to make medical decisions for you should you be unable to to express your wishes for yourself. This is a major, major problem because in my experience, most American's do not prepare adequately for this situation. (I have taken care of elderly patents with terminal cancer who did not talk to their family about end of life issues.)

In Texas, and I would assume in Florida, there is a list of people who are to act on behalf of the incapacitated patient.

1. If the patient had prepared an advanved directive (more commonly called a "living will," then the physicians are to act according to the wishes outlined there.

2. Some people appoint a medical power of attorney (POA) who is designted to make medcial decisions on behalf of the incapacitated patient.

3. Next is the Spouce.

4. Next is a competent, adult child.

5. Next is a paent.

6. Next is a sibling.

The problem is, the laws aren't quite that simple. Although quite a few states have such lists, most of them don't allow the refusal of lifesaving treatment in this fashion. This comes up fairly often, concerning religions which refuse blood transfusions. If anyone in this chain except the person himself (or sometimes the power of attorney) attempts to refuse lifesaving treatment, the state steps in as guardian and administers the treatment anyway. I'm not entirely certain of the situation in Florida, but I would hazard a guess that they do this.

[asd]

The problem is, the laws aren't quite that simple. Although quite a few states have such lists, most of them don't allow the refusal of lifesaving treatment in this fashion. This comes up fairly often, concerning religions which refuse blood transfusions. If anyone in this chain except the person himself (or sometimes the power of attorney) attempts to refuse lifesaving treatment, the state steps in as guardian and administers the treatment anyway.

This is utterly absurd. These laws are specifically designed to allow a surrogate to make end of life decisions, icluding the withdrawal of witholding of life saving treatment.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by asd:
From what i can tell, many doctors, and many judges over the years have concluded that she is in a persistent vegetative state.

No. Only one judge has determined she is in a persistent vegetative state. The other judges haven't independently decided that issue. They have only accepted that issue as a matter determined by the factfinder. Facts aren't usually reviewed by appellate courts because they don't see the witnesses.

When it goes to Federal court, presumably the whole matter will be reopened.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by asd:
This is utterly absurd. These laws are specifically designed to allow a surrogate to make end of life decisions, icluding the withdrawal of witholding of life saving treatment.

Maybe, maybe not, but if you want to see cases where what I describe has happened, I can show you.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by asd:
This is utterly absurd. These laws are specifically designed to allow a surrogate to make end of life decisions, icluding the withdrawal of witholding of life saving treatment.

Apparently that is not the law in Florida unless the patient designates a person to make that decision in a living will.

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
A piece of advice? Don't post here if it causes you so much anguish reading our "drivel."

"our" drivel?

no no no, YOUR mindless drivel!

unfortunately your comprehension skills are probably weaker than those of terri s. in her current state.

[bstone]

I love how experienced, trained, licensed medical professionals write out the facts only to have some lay-person make an uninformed, unauthoritative rebuttal.

So yet another physician posts to this thread and demonstrates the utter clearity of the situation. Still, yet, the Christian right keeps their eyes closed.

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by Mithras:
chill out roberto. talking about driving planes into buildings and throwing around words like jesusnaziland from Germany...

why would that make any difference?

hell, considering current american politics i'm not that far off.

but, yeah, sorry for the plane comment. 'was just really upset at this and stupid people perpetuating lies (like the one who started this thread).

kudos to zigzag and others who keep their cool, while having to live in such a sh1thole. i probably couldn't deal.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by bstone:
I love how experienced, trained, licensed medical professionals write out the facts only to have some lay-person make an uninformed, unauthoritative rebuttal.

So yet another physician posts to this thread and demonstrates the utter clearity of the situation. Still, yet, the Christian right keeps their eyes closed.

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Would you give one sh1t and two whooping fu<ks?

probably not.

Originally posted by Millennium:
Get a living will, and they won't have a say here either.

unfortunately it takes more than that (on a political scale).

Originally posted by Millennium:
The entire point of this case is that there is no reliable way of determining her wishes.

no, the entire point of this case is to show that people who have no voice or other way to communicate are subject to being used as pawns in the sick little neocon war on human dignity. terri has been dead for a long time. let her rest in piece.

Originally posted by Millennium:
Put your own wishes in writing, and you will quite neatly keep that situation from ever happenning to you.

i have. thank you.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by bstone:
I love how experienced, trained, licensed medical professionals write out the facts only to have some lay-person make an uninformed, unauthoritative rebuttal.

Like it or not, this is something decided by law, not physicians.

Don't dismiss laypersons. They are ultimately the authority that grants that medical license. It's a licence only to do what the law allows.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by roberto blanco:
why would that make any difference?

I suspect someone is trying to indirectly invoke Godwin's Law on you, by claiming that the land which spawned the Nazis has little right to call any other nation such. Don't shoot the messenger; I don't agree with it either, but I think that's what our friend here was trying to say. However, you did invoke it first, with the 'jesusnaziland' comment.

That said, this thread is likely to go into the PoliWar lounge unless you stop trying to project all of American politics onto this one single issue. I don't think anyone here wants that to happen.

[bstone]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Like it or not, this is something decided by law, not physicians.

Don't dismiss laypersons. They are ultimately the authority that grants that medical license. It's a licence only to do what the law allows.

True, but what I was meaning is that several physicians have laid out what the law/procedure is in regards to someone being unable to speak for themself vis-a-vis wishes for life support. Whereas it is laypersons who pass the laws, they have a tremendous amount of physician influence (tho there should be more, IMO).

However, my medical license is granted to me by the State board of health, which is headed by a physician.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by roberto blanco:
unfortunately it takes more than that (on a political scale).

No, no it doesn't. This case could not have reached the scale it did if Schiavo had a living will. Either she'd have been dead long before the custody battle could have started, or her husband would not be able to pull the plug at all, in which case he'd probably have divorced her and relinquished custody to her parents long ago.

The fact that this did not happen, and the fact that the arguments from both sides about her wishes are sketchier than an art class, are what allowed this whole debacle to occur. It couldn't have happened if her wishes had been clear.

no, the entire point of this case is to show that people who have no voice or other way to communicate are subject to being used as pawns in the sick little neocon war on human dignity.

Which is more important, some manufactured concept of 'dignity' or that the person's wishes are respected?