[Dork.]

besson3c and I started having a philosophical argument in the Lounge which, just like other arguments over Religion, I figure I should move in here so I can convert all of you heathens to the One True Way. Please get your flame gear on!

Simply stated: The American League is a bunch of pussies, because they haven't let their pitchers hit since 1973. This is an affront to all that is good and holy. Let there be a DH in the All-Star Game, if you like, since that game doesn't (shouldn't) count. But after 39 seasons, isn't it time to bring our wayward cousins in the AL back to the One, True rulebook?

My (totally impartial, of course) collection of links for you to consider in your deliberations:

The History of Baseball’s Designated Hitter Rule: Or, The Decline and Fall of Western Civilization? | Saturday Evening Post

Ban the designated hitter - proposal for changing baseball rules | Washington Monthly | Find Articles

Is the Designated Hitter Ethical? A Philosophical View | Bleacher Report

Bull Durham's "I Believe In..." speech - YouTube (language may be NSFW, but if you bothered to click on this thread, you've seen the movie and know this already)

Edit: I meant for this to be a poll, but for some reason, I couldn't make one. Oh well.

[subego]

Yes.

[lpkmckenna]

The pitcher is the most strenuous position in the game. I can understand the DH rule from that perspective. Have there been any studies proving the other league suffers from shortened careers for their pitchers?

[besson3c]

My argument in the other thread was that the vast majority of modern pitchers don't take their hitting seriously, which amounts to a virtually guaranteed easy out in the lineup, which is not fun for fans and doesn't make for particularly compelling strategy.

[subego]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

The pitcher is the most strenuous position in the game. I can understand the DH rule from that perspective. Have there been any studies proving the other league suffers from shortened careers for their pitchers?

It can definitely lengthen the career of a catcher, who can take a load off their knees when they DH.

[Dork.]

I bet that Shaq's career could have been extended if he could have had someone shoot his free-throws for him. Let's change the NBA rules, too!

[besson3c]

Dork., I think I kind of understand your beef against the DH, but I kind of see the days of the aging slugger going away as those players such as Ortiz and Thome and players like that sort of on the tail end of the steroid era retire.

I think that DH archetype was sort of constructed by those big market teams like the Yankees and Red Sox, and I kind of see the way entire teams are constructed changing too, moving towards more of the models set by teams like the Rays, Rangers, Giants, etc. where teams build from within and don't add free agents until they are close to contention. Teams like the Rangers also have a pretty balanced lineup, and while they have superstars like Josh Hamilton in there, the lineups aren't stacked with All-star calibre players like the Yankees and Red Sox have, but just decent .800+ OPS type hitters throughout to combine with solid young pitching. While there are certainly great older pitchers out there, young seems to be where it's at too with teams like the Giants and Rays having some of the best rotations in the league.

The Phillies obviously have an awesome rotation too, but I think they were pretty darn lucky with getting two free agent aces to sign, I don't think your typical team can count on that, including the Yankees and Red Sox even who have nothing remotely equivalent (although I guess Beckett's resurgence + Lester was pretty good this year).

So, I kind of see the DH as sort of a wildcard position in the lineup, not just camping grounds for bulky aging 30+ home run type 30+ year old hitters that can't run.

[Waragainstsleep]

Not convinced I know exactly what you're all on about but it sounds like a slippery slope. Won't you just end up with a team of hitters and a team of fielders/pitchers and switch over as needed? Like the NFL where they have separate teams for offence and defence.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Not convinced I know exactly what you're all on about but it sounds like a slippery slope. Won't you just end up with a team of hitters and a team of fielders/pitchers and switch over as needed? Like the NFL where they have separate teams for offence and defence.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that right now the NL is hitting deficient and the AL is pitching deficient?

[Dork.]

He's saying why make an exception just for the pitcher? Most catchers are groomed for defense and for the way they handle pitchers, not necessarily for their offense. Catchers who are good with the bat, like Johnny Bench and Mike Piazza are an exception. (Does Mauer count, too? I think so.) They have to squat for every pitch every day, why do we think they can handle running the bases any better than pitchers?

Or Shortstops? We've been spoiled with great-hitting shortstops lately (especially in the NL East), but shortstop has not historically been a talented hitting position. Most teams will value range and a decent arm over offense at that position. Why should a team have to choose? If we had DH's for shortstops, too, then teams can run out their best fielding shortstops without worrying about their offensive production.

Not too big a leap from there to running out a separate lineup for defense and offense. Although maybe the Mets could have used a permanent DH for Bay last season....

[Shaddim]

They make a decent salary, would it kill them to go to batting practice once /wk?

[Chongo]

Babe Ruth's career would have ended when he died if the DH was around in his day!
That being said....
The DH eliminates some of the most crucial decisions a manager can make in a game: do I leave a pitcher in who is throwing a shutout/no hitter/PG in a close game because there a runners in scoring position? Do you walk the bases loaded to get to the pitcher, forcing the other manager to decide if he pulls him, thus removing a pitcher who may be throwing a ..... you get the idea

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Babe Ruth's career would have ended when he died if the DH was around in his day!
That being said....
The DH eliminates some of the most crucial decisions a manager can make in a game: do I leave a pitcher in who is throwing a shutout/no hitter/PG in a close game because there a runners in scoring position? Do you walk the bases loaded to get to the pitcher, forcing the other manager to decide if he pulls him, thus removing a pitcher who may be throwing a ..... you get the idea

This happens sometimes, yes, but often times the decisions surrounding the pitcher are just formulaic.

[Jawbone54]

NL teams force every athlete to be well-rounded.

The DH rule allows pitchers who can't bat, hitters who can't field, and catchers who can't squat to have too significant a place in Major League Baseball.

The argument that pitchers neglect batting is ridiculous. If all pitchers were expected to bat, they would then be forced to take batting practice more seriously, and certain pitchers would set themselves apart by becoming better two-way players than most.

Scenario: take two free agent pitchers, side by side. Their stats are as follows:
Player 1: ERA 2.93 - WHIP - 1.08 - BA .171 - OBP .202
Player 2: ERA 2.98 - WHIP - 1.10 - BA .257 - OBP .290

Would Player 2 not be significantly more valuable, even though he's still an average batter?

Doing away with the DH rule would reward the truest of athletes.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

They make a decent salary, would it kill them to go to batting practice once /wk?

[Cold Warrior]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

Edit: I meant for this to be a poll, but for some reason, I couldn't make one. Oh well.

I can edit the thread to add a poll. Let me know the parameters if you want and I'll do it.

[Dork.]

Well, I was going to make poll choices like "I hate the DH" and "I don't understand Baseball enough to hate the DH". But based on the comments in this thread so far, we may not need to. We all get it, except for besson3c. And he might be too Canadian to ever get it right, anyway.

[Waragainstsleep]

It seems to be one of the few things about baseball I do understand.

[brassplayersrock²]

DemonHood is not bad! He's a very very nice person damn it!

[CreepDogg]

I completely disagree. I think one of the absolute worst things about watching baseball is to turn on a game and watch 8 interesting and competitive at-bats. Then, some ridiculously overmatched buffoon steps up to the plate, the pitcher takes a breather and lobs a few quick strikes, records an out, and everyone moves on. It's like in football if a team fielded an offense, then put a 165-pound beanpole at left tackle - make every matchup competitive except one. Ugh.

I don't think the strategy around pitchers batting is very interesting either. Everyone knows that pitchers are crappy hitters, and so managers are going to either bunt or pinch hit around them whenever possible. Snore.

And I should know. I got to watch Adam Dunn step up every 9th time all season.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

NL teams force every athlete to be well-rounded.

The DH rule allows pitchers who can't bat, hitters who can't field, and catchers who can't squat to have too significant a place in Major League Baseball.

The argument that pitchers neglect batting is ridiculous. If all pitchers were expected to bat, they would then be forced to take batting practice more seriously, and certain pitchers would set themselves apart by becoming better two-way players than most.

Scenario: take two free agent pitchers, side by side. Their stats are as follows:
Player 1: ERA 2.93 - WHIP - 1.08 - BA .171 - OBP .202
Player 2: ERA 2.98 - WHIP - 1.10 - BA .257 - OBP .290

Would Player 2 not be significantly more valuable, even though he's still an average batter?

Doing away with the DH rule would reward the truest of athletes.

Show me some decent pitchers that can hit. Who are they? That player 2 is way below league average for any sort of hitter. An OBP of .290 is not what you expect from a major league hitter, it might pass for a strong defending bench player at best.

I think a lot of people cling to the idea that these players exist because they used to, but not so much anymore.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

I completely disagree. I think one of the absolute worst things about watching baseball is to turn on a game and watch 8 interesting and competitive at-bats. Then, some ridiculously overmatched buffoon steps up to the plate, the pitcher takes a breather and lobs a few quick strikes, records an out, and everyone moves on. It's like in football if a team fielded an offense, then put a 165-pound beanpole at left tackle - make every matchup competitive except one. Ugh.

I don't think the strategy around pitchers batting is very interesting either. Everyone knows that pitchers are crappy hitters, and so managers are going to either bunt or pinch hit around them whenever possible. Snore.

And I should know. I got to watch Adam Dunn step up every 9th time all season.

Exactly.

I think people that feel otherwise just haven't realized that the game has changed. Yes it would be great if pitchers took their hitting seriously and stuff, but they don't. What will change that?

[Shaddim]

Carlos Zambrano is a decent bat, when he doesn't lose his temper.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Carlos Zambrano is a decent bat, when he doesn't lose his temper.

A career OPS of .646 and OBP of .250 is ass, sorry.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

A career OPS of .646 and OBP of .250 is ass, sorry.

and yet, he's 9th all time in HRs among pitchers. This year he was batting .330 before he got benched for becoming violent after the Cubs lost to the Braves. He's decent with a bat.

[SpaceMonkey]

In a perfect world, I would rather not have the DH. It just seems "right" to make the pitcher hit like everybody else and not make a special exception, and at the same time it's always a hoot when a pitcher actually does something with the bat (sadly, Jon Niese's triple was one of the highlights of the Mets' season last year). So in that sense I agree with Dork.

However, at this point (despite being a fan of a National League team) I prefer watching baseball where a DH is used. I am not sure that I want the NL to adopt it, since it's nice that the different leagues have at least one remaining quirky thing that separates them. However, I disagree with the notion that "NL teams force every athlete to be well-rounded." They don't. Pitchers don't seriously train to be hitters, regardless of whether they are in the NL or AL. The simple fact is that the NL is virtually the only professional or amateur league that does not use a DH. Unless they played another position in high school or college, pitchers coming up to The Show have essentially never had to hit, which is why they are so terrible. Winding up on an NL team, taking cursory BP and working on their bunting technique doesn't change that. As much as it seems "right" that a pitcher should have to hit, it makes just as much sense to ask the NL to adopt the DH to conform with the way baseball is actually played everywhere else.

And I find the traditionalist argument silly. If we're worried about arbitrary rule changes that were adopted to artificially inflate offense, shouldn't we raise the pitching mound?

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

and yet, he's 9th all time in HRs among pitchers. This year he was batting .330 before he got benched for becoming violent after the Cubs lost to the Braves. He's decent with a bat.

It's telling that one of the 'best' hitting pitchers (and a major outlier, at that) is barely as good as the 'worst' hitters at other positions.

Even though they have every incentive to do so, the NL does NOT place any emphasis on hitting for pitchers. You'd think, since there's another league where poor hitters could go (the AL), the NL could cherry-pick their pitchers and get the 'well-rounded' ones. But they don't.

I was trying to find stats on batting averages by position. I couldn't come up with anything exact in a quick search, but I saw some stats saying that pitchers, cumulatively, had a batting average somewhere between .091 and about .140. Every other position is well above the Mendoza line. THAT is why you make an exception for pitchers and not everyone else. It's just pathetic watching them try to hit. You might as well just grab someone out of the stands to bat in the pitcher's spot every time they come up - you'd have about the same result, but at least it'd be more entertaining.

[Chongo]

Babe Ruth started out as a pitcher.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

and yet, he's 9th all time in HRs among pitchers. This year he was batting .330 before he got benched for becoming violent after the Cubs lost to the Braves. He's decent with a bat.

No, he is a horrible hitter like most other pitchers. 44 ABs is too small of a sample size to get excited about. Besides, the year before he OPSed .543, which is well below his career mark, although even then it was also a small sample size of 52 AB.

That he can hit 2 HRs in 44 ABs (1 HR in 52 AB last year) is nothing to write home about. Having good power in relation to other pitchers is nice to say and all, but his career numbers are absolutely nowhere near major league batting standards for any non-pitching position. The one exception is his 2008 season, but this seems to be an outlier, and pretty far into the past.

[besson3c]

In defense of the poor offensive performance of pitchers and one important variable that many seem to be overlooking here is the fact that pitchers only hit every fifth day. Yes shortstops and catchers generally aren't in the offensive elite category, but at least they can work on their timing with major league pitching every day (or most days, in the case of catchers). In the era of the change up being a pretty trendy pitch to master in addition to the curve (for those that use this as an offspeed pitch), it is extremely difficult getting a handle on your timing when you are only batting every fifth day, and even if you have that rare unicorn-type pitcher that can hit, you probably aren't having him pinch hit on his off days anyway when you have bench players that are there for the sole purpose of focusing on random appearances and manufacturing runs.