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Ron Paul crushes again - debates
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el chupacabra
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Sep 12, 2011, 10:26 PM
 
So if you watched the debates you probably saw Dr. Paul crush everyone with his hammer of intellect. For the most part everything that was said in the debates was the same ol stuff; bla bla bla I hate obama care, bla bla jobs etc..

The only time I found it interesting was when Paul spoke with his unique non-status quo explanations. There was only one part where Paul fudged up. He got too honest with the subject of 9-11 forgetting that humans are still just evolved apes who haven't reached that level of thinking yet.

I don't understand why people are still stuck on 9-11 10 years later. 9-11 this 9-11 that, do you remember?? Never forget!!! It's pathetic. I thought there was some law in the republicans religion about mourning something for too long. People just have to have someone, some group to hate against. They treat this like some kind of cultural/nationalist football game. We gotta hate dem Muslims cuz der all jihadist and hates us for our freedom. Thats what was cheered on at the debates tonight. Paul of course was boo hooed. Of course the only explanation I can come up with is the primitive tribal nature of humans. I can't even begin to fathom for the life of me how so much of the nation can hoot and holler against the Muslim world when they've never been in a Muslim country, probably only met 3 or 4 Muslims in their lifetime; and strangely think people on the other side of the planet are highly motivated to kill us over some religious differences. What the hell does anyone who booed Paul know about Muslims, or the world trade organization and it's oppressive bullying around the world?

Are there any fellow conservatives/republicans here that can explain this to me without the emotion factoring in to it? I already understand that people died in 9-11. But it's like joining the military and then having this deep never ending hate and mourning when your kid goes to war and gets killed in battle... That was their occupation... It's like smoking then being angry at tobacco when you get cancer.
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Lateralus
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Sep 12, 2011, 10:52 PM
 
I've been watching the debates if only for the sake of 'know thy enemy'. But two things really struck me tonight as reminders of why I'm a Democrat;

1) When a question was posed as to whether or not a voluntarily uninsured young male who fell gravely ill should be allowed to die, the crowd cheered...

2) When Ron Paul correctly pointed out that our unjustified presence overseas has, now and in the past, given cause to our enemies... the crowd acted as if the man had just turned the flag upside down. I can't believe a group of people will simultaneously cheer calls to bring our troops home and disinvolve ourselves, while booing any attempt to shine light on the fact that our presence abroad creates anger abroad.

Anyways, I think Perry showed some cracks tonight. He held, but I think the specific targets in his record for the next debate probably crept to the surface.

Romney, on the other hand, continues to impress me. I still disagree with him on a lot, but he's a highly skilled debater, has his thoughts in order, and comes across as both knowledgable and decisive. He'll keep Obama on his toes should he clench the nomination.\

Huntsman is getting there, slowly. He tends to drone on for too long, which doesn't play to a tea party crowd, but he's doing a much better job of sealing camera time for himself to share some fairly important ideas for his campaign. If his funding holds out, I think he'll rise in the polls by default as Santorum and Cain fade.
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Sep 12, 2011, 11:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
Romney, on the other hand, continues to impress me. I still disagree with him on a lot, but he's a highly skilled debater, has his thoughts in order, and comes across as both knowledgable and decisive. He'll keep Obama on his toes should he clench the nomination.\
Romney is just like Obama - a likable guy, nice oral skills, and will fail miserably in making any change.

It would be 4 more years of the same old. I'd rather have Obama for 4 more years and really f*ck things up, so that we get real change, rather than a Republican dummy like Romney.

-t
     
el chupacabra  (op)
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Sep 12, 2011, 11:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
1) When a question was posed as to whether or not a voluntarily uninsured young male who fell gravely ill should be allowed to die, the crowd cheered...
That pissed me off too. It was an overly simple, loaded question and Im surprised Paul answered it so well considering it's purpose.
Anyways, I think Perry showed some cracks tonight. He held, but I think the specific targets in his record for the next debate probably crept to the surface.

Romney, on the other hand, continues to impress me. I still disagree with him on a lot, but he's a highly skilled debater, has his thoughts in order, and comes across as both knowledgable and decisive. He'll keep Obama on his toes should he clench the nomination.\
I thought Perry was skilled too. He had clever ways to make what he was saying look good, or appease the crowd. Another thing that annoyed me was how the crowd responded the most to punch lines for lack of better way to put it. "what are you going to bring to the white house" Perry: "my beautiful wife". Or when someone would end a statement with "and that's the AMERICAN way!" clap clap clap "they're coming to Texas because they know there is still a land of freedom, a land of low taxes, a land of....." cheer and applause
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Sep 13, 2011, 01:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
I've been watching the debates if only for the sake of 'know thy enemy'. But two things really struck me tonight as reminders of why I'm a Democrat;

1) When a question was posed as to whether or not a voluntarily uninsured young male who fell gravely ill should be allowed to die, the crowd cheered...
I saw the last debate but I missed this one. Was engaged in more important matters like watching the season finale of True Blood. But you have to be sh*tting me on this?

Then again, I supposed I really shouldn't be all that surprised. IMO there's a decidedly selfish streak within many in the Tea Party crowd. A hostility towards ensuring a basic minimum standard of living for all as a society that often crosses into downright mean-spiritedness. Which is so odd considering how "Christian" they claim to be. Cheering at the thought of allowing an uninsured man to die fits into their so-called "culture of life" how exactly?

Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
2) When Ron Paul correctly pointed out that our unjustified presence overseas has, now and in the past, given cause to our enemies... the crowd acted as if the man had just turned the flag upside down. I can't believe a group of people will simultaneously cheer calls to bring our troops home and disinvolve ourselves, while booing any attempt to shine light on the fact that our presence abroad creates anger abroad.
The jingoistic attitudes run deep. The kool-aid has been drunk and these people actually believe that "They hate us for our freedoms." BS. US Government support for brutal regimes that oppress their own people all in the name of "stability" (i.e. keeping the oil flowing) simply can't be reconciled with their "American Exceptionalism" mantra. Consequently, simple logic and common sense gets sacrificed on the altar of ideology.

OAW
     
Lateralus
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Sep 13, 2011, 01:50 PM
 
The clip is on YouTube, incase anybody wants to see it; Tea Party Crowd Cheers Letting Uninsured Die - YouTube
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Lateralus
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Sep 13, 2011, 02:10 PM
 
First Read - Perry 'taken aback' by debate crowd reaction

"I was a bit taken aback by that myself," Perry told NBC News and the Miami Herald after appearing at a breakfast fundraiser in Tampa.
"We're the party of life. We ought to be coming up with ways to save lives."
Too bad nobody said it on stage. I don't know why politicians, on either side, are afraid to tell the crazier among the crowd to STFU.

This kinda stuff keeps a way A LOT of moderate to Liberal voters. Those of you who are Republicans need to understand that; you can stick to your ideals while telling the most crazy, unChristian among you to reassess themselves. Because as I said, I'm Liberal and always have been. But for the first time in my life I'm allowing social issues and foreign policy to take a back seat to fiscal policy and economic plans - so I'm actually open minded and watching these debates for a fairly legitimate reason. And I'm not alone.
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Sep 13, 2011, 02:19 PM
 
Just watched the YouTube clip and realized it was the first time I had ever heard Ron Paul's voice. Apropo of nothing, but he does not sound anything like I expected based on his looks or his reputation.

Matters not, just expected him to sound a bit more imposing.
     
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Sep 13, 2011, 03:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
I don't know why politicians, on either side, are afraid to tell the crazier among the crowd to STFU.

This kinda stuff keeps a way A LOT of moderate to Liberal voters. Those of you who are Republicans need to understand that; you can stick to your ideals while telling the most crazy, unChristian among you to reassess themselves.
That's one thing I most definitely respected about John McCain on the 2008 campaign trail. When some of the wingnuts at some of his rallies started started calling Obama a "terrorist" he shut that nonsense down in no uncertain terms. None of that "Well I can't tell people what to think." that we heard during that idiotic "birther" debate.

In any event, I imagine that clip will start showing up in Democrat political ads shortly.

OAW
     
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Sep 14, 2011, 02:25 AM
 
I couldn't stomach watching the debate, but based on the YouTube clip I have a question and an observation:

O: The "crowd" cheering sounded more like approximately THREE people. Two men and a woman.

Q: Who says these people weren't voicing support for the questioner? Sounded to me like that could have been the case.
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Sep 18, 2011, 09:57 AM
 
If anyone has been "crushing" in these debates it is Newt Gingrich.

Ron Paul was little more than whiney, gaffe-proned, and from listening to him I'm not entirely sure he even believes his bumpkus. Getting booed by your own caucus is not... well it's not really "crushing" IMO.
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Sep 19, 2011, 07:01 AM
 
Ron Pauls win in the CA straw poll suggests HE MUST BE AN IDIOT, since the folks in CA are wrong about everything.
     
el chupacabra  (op)
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Sep 19, 2011, 10:55 PM
 
California is a beautiful, clean, well preserved state... People can hate it and say what they want about it's welfare programs but It's also one of the states that bankrolls the nation. Texas on the other hand... Well just visit here and see for yourself what Perry's vision is for the country.
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Sep 19, 2011, 11:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
California is a beautiful, clean, well preserved state...



People can hate it and say what they want about it's welfare programs but It's also one of the states that bankrolls the nation.
Which is just another stupid idea from California. No one lives here to bankroll everyone else. Having a large percentage of CHUMPS isn't exactly a great calling card for this state- it's one of the many reasons we're models for how a state goes tits-up. California's 12% of the US population bankrolling 32% of US welfare recipients is another stupid idea from California. But of course, you're 'selfish' if you oppose the "poor" blowing public money on gambling in Las Vegas and cruises to Hawaii.
     
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Sep 19, 2011, 11:54 PM
 
The point Crash is that Californians aren't the "lazy, un-American degenerates" that a lot of the holier-than-thou living in broke ass southern "red" states like to proclaim them to be. All the while receiving more benefits than they contribute federally. I'm just saying …

OAW
     
ebuddy
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Sep 20, 2011, 07:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
California is a beautiful, clean, well preserved state... People can hate it and say what they want about it's welfare programs but It's also one of the states that bankrolls the nation. Texas on the other hand... Well just visit here and see for yourself what Perry's vision is for the country.
No thanks on both counts quite frankly.
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Sep 20, 2011, 12:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
California is a beautiful, clean, well preserved state... People can hate it and say what they want about it's welfare programs but It's also one of the states that bankrolls the nation. Texas on the other hand... Well just visit here and see for yourself what Perry's vision is for the country.
Uh, right.

OT:
Ron Paul makes a lot of sense on many things. Regardless, he's a waste of everyone's time. Unless he can get the next prez to make him SecTreas or something. That would be fun to watch.
     
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Sep 20, 2011, 08:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
The point Crash is that Californians aren't the "lazy, un-American degenerates" that a lot of the holier-than-thou living in broke ass southern "red" states like to proclaim them to be. All the while receiving more benefits than they contribute federally. I'm just saying …

OAW
What on earth are you listening to that you're hearing "lazy, un-American degenerates" from those in the "red" states? This is the kind of obscure reference that could only be uttered from a northern, blue stater.
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Sep 20, 2011, 10:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
What on earth are you listening to that you're hearing "lazy, un-American degenerates" from those in the "red" states? This is the kind of obscure reference that could only be uttered from a northern, blue stater.
Surely you've heard references to "San Francisco Liberals" and the "Left Coast" used in clearly derisive manners in right wing media my friend?

OAW

PS: And for the record, I'm neither from a northern or blue state.
     
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Sep 21, 2011, 12:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Surely you've heard references to "San Francisco Liberals" and the "Left Coast" used in clearly derisive manners in right wing media my friend?

OAW

PS: And for the record, I'm neither from a northern or blue state.
It's hardly just in 'right wing media'.

Many people look at places like San Francisco as bastions of the stupid ideas that got California into the mess it's currently in. You're twisting around trying to find a comparable negative with southern states doesn't make California any less broke, or any less full of goofy leftists and their long-outdated ideas that have taken one of the world's greatest economies and turned it into yet another reeking shitpile of debt.
     
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Sep 21, 2011, 07:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Surely you've heard references to "San Francisco Liberals" and the "Left Coast" used in clearly derisive manners in right wing media my friend?

OAW

PS: And for the record, I'm neither from a northern or blue state.
The two above are still vastly different than lazy, un-american, and degenerate and of course even if it weren't, it'd still pale in comparison to how the average Tea partier is portrayed by the angry, mentally ill left.
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Sep 21, 2011, 07:23 AM
 
When CA doesn't have a billion dollar deficit get back to us. (It should be a few thousand years from now.) Those idiots still vote to GIVE AWAY tax dollars to useless bums, has-beens and social causes, all while chasing away the ones making money. So they ARE stupid. I found the average people out there to be uninformed and shallow. I couldn't WAIT to get back to the East coast.
     
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Sep 21, 2011, 08:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
The only time I found it interesting was when Paul spoke with his unique non-status quo explanations. There was only one part where Paul fudged up. He got too honest with the subject of 9-11 forgetting that humans are still just evolved apes who haven't reached that level of thinking yet.
He didn't forget, he doesn't believe that to be the case.

Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
I don't understand why people are still stuck on 9-11 10 years later. 9-11 this 9-11 that, do you remember?? Never forget!!! It's pathetic. I thought there was some law in the republicans religion about mourning something for too long. People just have to have someone, some group to hate against. They treat this like some kind of cultural/nationalist football game. We gotta hate dem Muslims cuz der all jihadist and hates us for our freedom. Thats what was cheered on at the debates tonight. Paul of course was boo hooed. Of course the only explanation I can come up with is the primitive tribal nature of humans. I can't even begin to fathom for the life of me how so much of the nation can hoot and holler against the Muslim world when they've never been in a Muslim country, probably only met 3 or 4 Muslims in their lifetime; and strangely think people on the other side of the planet are highly motivated to kill us over some religious differences. What the hell does anyone who booed Paul know about Muslims, or the world trade organization and it's oppressive bullying around the world?

Are there any fellow conservatives/republicans here that can explain this to me without the emotion factoring in to it? I already understand that people died in 9-11. But it's like joining the military and then having this deep never ending hate and mourning when your kid goes to war and gets killed in battle... That was their occupation... It's like smoking then being angry at tobacco when you get cancer.
I doubt you'd consider me a conservative but I'll offer a thought or two on this and attempt to keep emotion out of it. 10 years ago, America really wasn't used to terrorism, at least not from outside. Most of the things that exploded on US soil were blown up by americans who were generally written off by everyone as being insane, and quite rightly so. 9/11 was painted as an attack on America. To the rest of us, it seemed like the very concept of this seemed to utterly bemuse you guys for quite a while. There was a very obvious sense of disbelief, not that people had died or that buildings had collapsed, but that somewhere there were people who didn't like let alone love America.
I'm not trying to rile you up at all but the impression that we outsiders get is that you guys love your country a bit too much. You are probably right to an extent when you cite tribalism but its my understanding that if I walked into a public place anywhere in America and started chanting "USA! USA!" that most of those present would join in with gusto. If I Started shouting "England! England!" anywhere but an international football (soccer) match, my countrymen would look at me like I was nuts. I'm quite proud of some of things my country has achieved in the past and hence at least a little proud to be english, but there is plenty to be ashamed of too. Blind devotion to anything on the scale of a country is never something I could consider to be a good thing and while it seems americans are more and more willing to criticise aspects of their own country in more recent years, most of it seems to get swept up into the old red V. blue debates.

9/11, much like the aforementioned chanting, became a rallying call for a period, now its just triggering a reflex. "Someone said 9/11, quick cheer!"

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Sep 21, 2011, 03:44 PM
 
Paul would put Dennis Kucinich in his cabinet? Yuck. What could that idiot advise on? Leftist stupidity?
     
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Sep 21, 2011, 04:41 PM
 
Hair.
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Sep 22, 2011, 07:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
So if you watched the debates you probably saw Dr. Paul crush everyone with his hammer of intellect. For the most part everything that was said in the debates was the same ol stuff; bla bla bla I hate obama care, bla bla jobs etc..
No. Rather, I saw an attention whore doing what attention whores do; stir up shxx-pots of nonsense to get attention. The entire field has been consistently lambasted by Newt Gingrich, but don't take my word for it. You'll see it again tonight.

The only time I found it interesting was when Paul spoke with his unique non-status quo explanations. There was only one part where Paul fudged up. He got too honest with the subject of 9-11 forgetting that humans are still just evolved apes who haven't reached that level of thinking yet.
Of course, you evolved from super-highly intelligent aliens and being a third-party observer must be horrified at the stupidity of the collective below.

I don't understand why people are still stuck on 9-11 10 years later. 9-11 this 9-11 that, do you remember?? Never forget!!! It's pathetic. I thought there was some law in the republicans religion about mourning something for too long. People just have to have someone, some group to hate against. They treat this like some kind of cultural/nationalist football game. We gotta hate dem Muslims cuz der all jihadist and hates us for our freedom.
Absolutely no one, read 0; has said this. This is a caricature perpetuated by apes who can't discern the differences between race, creed, and dangerous ideology. If you think the crowd was raucous at these debates, you don't get abroad near as much as you seem to think you do.

Thats what was cheered on at the debates tonight. Paul of course was boo hooed. Of course the only explanation I can come up with is the primitive tribal nature of humans. I can't even begin to fathom for the life of me how so much of the nation can hoot and holler against the Muslim world when they've never been in a Muslim country, probably only met 3 or 4 Muslims in their lifetime; and strangely think people on the other side of the planet are highly motivated to kill us over some religious differences. What the hell does anyone who booed Paul know about Muslims, or the world trade organization and it's oppressive bullying around the world?
Of course, you're a regular visitor to the Middle East no doubt. These same anti-interventionalists are convinced that the culture of the Middle East is too barbaric for civility and rule of law and any attempt to democratize the region must be in vane. In one breath we created and funded Bin Laden and in the next breath Bin Laden was bent on destroying his creator and meal ticket. Of course, the billions continuously given to the Palestinian "leadership" is for naught. More proof that the money supply should stop, it's doing absolutely no good and is not recognized by any of the people we'd need to recognize it for progress.

Are there any fellow conservatives/republicans here that can explain this to me without the emotion factoring in to it?
Because you've done such a fantastic job of removing your emotional bias right?

I already understand that people died in 9-11. But it's like joining the military and then having this deep never ending hate and mourning when your kid goes to war and gets killed in battle... That was their occupation... It's like smoking then being angry at tobacco when you get cancer.
There were upwards of 700 business firms housed in the twin towers ranging from daycares to telecoms and they were guilty of going to work that day? Equated with military service and tobacco usage? Of course, they should've known eventually two airplanes would be flown through the buildings bringing them to the ground killing thousands.
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Sep 22, 2011, 11:40 PM
 
Yeah, I'm glad you called out el chupacabra on that point.

I'm glad that he is irritated by people who died in 9/11, and parents of dead troops. Just reminds me how bizarre and moronic liberals can be.
     
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Sep 22, 2011, 11:54 PM
 
Wait, a guy espousing the merits of Ron Paul is a liberal? Man, the Republican mindset really has become twisted...
     
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Sep 23, 2011, 09:25 AM
 
     
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Sep 23, 2011, 09:35 AM
 
Well, it appears as though he certainly crushed that debate.

But there are times when I listen to him and say, "Yes, this is the man."
Then he says something that completely turns my stomach inside out.

What a sorry ass state of politics the US is in.
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Sep 23, 2011, 10:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by osiris View Post
What a sorry ass state of politics the US is in.
It's only getting worse. Since when did campaigning start a year and a half before the election?

Hope all this money going into politics is creating jobs...
     
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Sep 23, 2011, 10:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It's only getting worse. Since when did campaigning start a year and a half before the election?

Hope all this money going into politics is creating jobs...
Indeed, what a mess.
Job creation is certainly happening in the campaign industry.
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Sep 24, 2011, 12:26 AM
 
Ill get back to you ebuddy when I get some more time.

Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
Yeah, I'm glad you called out el chupacabra on that point.

I'm glad that he is irritated by people who died in 9/11, and parents of dead troops. Just reminds me how bizarre and moronic liberals can be.
dead troops?? Were those troops killed on our soil defending us or on foreign soil while on the offensive? None of those countries we're in have the ability to fight a real war with us. All we had to do to prevent another 911 is what homeland security is already working on right now.... Tighten security/immigration policy, consolidate information, and do a little overseas investigating (Mohamed Atta was a world famous terrorist who might as well had a fire alarm strapped to his forehead he was so obvious).

No need to send troops anywhere. Just more of an example of how thoughtless and easily brainwashed people can be.

I'm not a liberal, a neocon more like it, it's just that while the majority's definition of "conservative" has changed over the years, my definition of it has remained the same. And saying I'm irritated by people who died in 9/11 is putting words in my mouth... not that im bothered by such. I'm irritated about the fact that you proud Americans will cry on cue to reference to 9-11; get angry and start patriotic bar fights over comments about 9-11. Yet if you guys see someone who's been hit by a car like the incident that got taped in NYC, hundreds of you will just walk by ignoring the person while they lay there dieing. Don't try and pretend you all care about people who died that day unless you related to them. I'm irritated at the fact that you don't understand death is natural part of life, and some of you mourning 10 years later as if it happened yesterday. If you had a spouse or child who died then that would have ruined your life for a couple years; but now it's time to let the hate and revenge go. In some counties people are glad if 1 out of 4 of their kids survives to adulthood. Sometimes you guys don't understand what a cush life you have and it comes across as somewhat silly from a third perspective. I'm irritated at the fact that you won't take responsibility of your actions and realize that it's YOU who's responsible for 9/11. People on the other side of the world don't just hate us for due to jealousy of our freedom/democracy/religion, et cetera. America started the war and acted like it was end of the world when they got attacked one time. 10 years later and they still cry like a bunch of spoiled brats, on the other hand many are suing each other for any amount of profit they can get out of it.

In the past few years the US has killed more children than Al Queda has killed total people in 9/11 & the past 20 years (I'll post more on this later), yet y'all don't seem to care much about that... It's still about gitting the big bad TERRORIST because he killed a few precious Americans.

The people in the towers definitely didn't deserve to die as they were probably too naive to know much about what they were doing; but when you're working for an organization that's primary purpose is to send orders around the world that enslaves people to peasantry wages, then justify it by saying "well those people all choose to work for those wages because everything is cheaper in those countries anyway", well you can expect a lot of hate to come your way.

So putting all that together It seems so politically programed into you guys, it's unnatural and makes no logical sense to me.
( Last edited by el chupacabra; Sep 24, 2011 at 12:47 AM. )
the largest problem for Americans today is they eat too much food and dont have enough work to do to keep their heart healthy
     
ebuddy
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Sep 24, 2011, 07:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by osiris View Post
Well, it appears as though he certainly crushed that debate.

But there are times when I listen to him and say, "Yes, this is the man."
Then he says something that completely turns my stomach inside out.

What a sorry ass state of politics the US is in.
Yeah... I should probably qualify my rhetoric by saying "in my opinion" Newt Gingrich is crushing. IMO it went Gingrich, Cain, Romney, but when Perry bests Gingrich by almost double, I must quietly walk away uttering Osiris' point; what a sorry ass state of politics the US is in.

If Perry is the Republican hopeful, we're sunk. (because again, Ron Paul is going to do well among his faithful, but will not garner enough votes against Obama for a win. He just won't.) The only one who strikes me as truly ready for the Presidency, right now, out of this group is Newt Gingrich.

A Gingrich/Cain ticket would slay!
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ebuddy
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Sep 24, 2011, 11:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I doubt you'd consider me a conservative but I'll offer a thought or two on this and attempt to keep emotion out of it. 10 years ago, America really wasn't used to terrorism, at least not from outside. Most of the things that exploded on US soil were blown up by americans who were generally written off by everyone as being insane, and quite rightly so. 9/11 was painted as an attack on America. To the rest of us, it seemed like the very concept of this seemed to utterly bemuse you guys for quite a while. There was a very obvious sense of disbelief, not that people had died or that buildings had collapsed, but that somewhere there were people who didn't like let alone love America.
For what it's worth to you, I think this was a very fair assessment Waragainstsleep. The only thing I'd qualify is the point that our surprise was that people wouldn't like or love us as we readily accept this notion of those living in America, let alone those abroad. The shock I saw was; A. how the hell could this have happened? and B. Who the hell had the balls to act in such a concerted manner?

I'm not trying to rile you up at all but the impression that we outsiders get is that you guys love your country a bit too much. You are probably right to an extent when you cite tribalism but its my understanding that if I walked into a public place anywhere in America and started chanting "USA! USA!" that most of those present would join in with gusto.
Yeah, but I think what you're missing here is that you could walk into a public place anywhere in America and sing; "WE ALL LIVE..." and those present would howl back; "IN A YELLOW SUBMARINE... A YELLOW SUBMARINE... A YELLOW SUBMARINE!". We're just bubbly that way.

If I Started shouting "England! England!" anywhere but an international football (soccer) match, my countrymen would look at me like I was nuts.
... or a nutty soccer fan. If you did this in a public place in America, those present may either start chanting "England! England" along with you or point and laugh. But then they might be a Mexico fan. Either way, we're just bubbly that way.

I'm quite proud of some of things my country has achieved in the past and hence at least a little proud to be english, but there is plenty to be ashamed of too. Blind devotion to anything on the scale of a country is never something I could consider to be a good thing and while it seems americans are more and more willing to criticise aspects of their own country in more recent years, most of it seems to get swept up into the old red V. blue debates.
This is a fundamental difference in our culture to be sure. Most of us here are raised to believe that the founding of this country was an ideal in itself, of people, for people; that we the people were fleeing a system of governance that was unjust and intrusive and separated "we" from "they". In America, we were raised with the sense that these two were inseparable at our founding and the checks and balances built into it would ensure lasting integrity. We were also taught that our treatment of Africans and later, African-Americans was horrific and we were taught about the Trail of Tears and other highly distasteful aspects of our history we should not be proud of. It may be hard to understand, but it's not "America!" people are chanting as much as the ideal of its founding. There is no reason at all to abandon that principle, particularly when you feel our country is moving away from it and to be perfectly clear; there wasn't a generation that existed after our founding that didn't feel our country was moving away from it. History's "patriots", now a bad word.

However, as flawed as this system of governance proved to be, it also found itself among the most successful forms of government in comparatively little time by almost any measure available. Along with this came some prosperity both achieved and unachieved which of course includes the softening of the collective one would expect from it. There are many who feel the "ideal" is under assault not only from external systems of government, but our own. They're getting more vocal about it. When they cheer for America!, they're cheering for the ideal of it. This isn't blind nationalism or love of geographical location any more than it would be your desire to fight for anything you love. If it did indeed return to the principles these "nationalists" are yelling about, its intervention elsewhere might be less necessary. It wouldn't be an ideal that had to be "sold" or enforced, it would be merely witnessed and then wanted and implemented. Unless of course there are nationalists of another kind; quick to indict other systems and equally defensive of their own geography. The unfortunate thing about human nature is that if you're not growing, you're dying and there isn't a government on the globe with a military and its own interests that doesn't get this ideal.

9/11, much like the aforementioned chanting, became a rallying call for a period, now its just triggering a reflex. "Someone said 9/11, quick cheer!"
What can I say, it was a doozy. The attempts were certainly nothing new, but the relative success of this one was something else.

Otherwise, we'll cheer for anything. Try it. It's amazing.
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Sep 24, 2011, 12:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
we'll cheer for anything. Try it. It's amazing.
Could be fun testing the limits of that theory.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
RobOnTheCape
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Sep 30, 2011, 09:29 AM
 
Say if by some amazing alignment of the planets Ron Paul did get elected, how much hopey changey stuff do you really think he could do? I think it's laughable that anyone thinks he can make Congess bend to his will, ideas. Further, with Congress the way it is now, no one, libertarian/republican/democrat can get much beyond worthless paper passed through. Unless there's a majority which can override filibusters, and who agree with the President I don't see Paul or anyone else making a difference.

If he got elected it would be almost like if Ross Perot got in. Great ideas/graphs/warnings, but if he got in I think Congress would have ignored him. Though saying "the deficit was like the crazy aunt in the basement no one wants to talk about" scored big points with me.
     
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Sep 30, 2011, 11:13 AM
 
Paul was interviewed on local radio yesterday. My impression is he's about 1/3 nutcase. He has that mostly hidden conspiracy theory mindset on some things. He's also a pacifist who would be sleeping at the helm. Not impressed with him at all.
     
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Jan 7, 2012, 11:31 AM
 
Ron Paul ignores the traditional one-dimension left-right political axis.


http://boingboing.net/2012/01/07/ron...+International
     
ebuddy
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Jan 9, 2012, 08:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Ron Paul ignores the traditional one-dimension left-right political axis.
As long as you consider hundreds of millions in pork annually somehow "anti-government" or outside the mainstream, one-dimensional political axis. I don't. He's a unique politician because he's uniquely inept at politics leaving the moderates without effective representation. A professional pitcher who sucks at pitching would certainly be unique in baseball, but that's not necessarily a good thing.
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turtle777
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Jan 9, 2012, 12:20 PM
 
Wow, ebuddy, I hadn't pegged you so firmly planted in the traditional (speak currupt and inept) Republican corner.

Good luck with Romney et al. You will not see any change, same as with Obama.

-t
     
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Jan 9, 2012, 03:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
He got too honest with the subject of 9-11 forgetting that humans are still just evolved apes who haven't reached that level of thinking yet.
Considering he thinks people were created 6000 years ago as they are, no, I don't think he forgot anything.
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you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
     
ebuddy
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Jan 9, 2012, 09:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Wow, ebuddy, I hadn't pegged you so firmly planted in the traditional (speak currupt and inept) Republican corner.
Why assume my viewpoint is this shallow? It's not about "establishment" vs "anti-establishment" turtle777, it's about skilled vs unskilled. You could stand outside the Capital with a bullhorn and accomplish as much for civil liberties and the Constitution as Ron Paul has as a member of the House. I'm also not going to pretend the hundreds of millions of dollars in fluff he's collecting for Texas isn't run-o-the mill political opportunism so I can put another do-nothing blowhard in the White House.

Good luck with Romney et al. You will not see any change, same as with Obama.
The President has advisors, a cabinet, czars, and numerous other appointments that would be changing on day one. This combined with the fact that I won't have to watch the POTUS chastise success and blame-shift failures any more is enough change for me. For now. I'd rather try my luck on Romney than try Obama another 4 years.
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subego
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Jan 9, 2012, 10:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I'm also not going to pretend the hundreds of millions of dollars in fluff he's collecting for Texas isn't run-o-the mill political opportunism so I can put another do-nothing blowhard in the White House.

I Googled "Ron Paul pork barrel spending" and found this list from a seeming anti-Paul blog entry.

Should Paul have rejected all these?

1. $25,000 for the Brazoria County Sheriff to establish a “Children’s Identification and Location Database.”

2. $8 million for the marketing of wild American shrimp.

3. $2.3 million for shrimp fishing research.

4. $3 million to “secure the acquisition of the McGinnes tract, protecting its critical natural resources and helping consolidate refuge inholdings.”

5. $5 million to expand the cancer center at Brazosport Hospital.

6. $200,000 for the Matagorda Episcopal Health Outreach Program to fund a “National Health Service Corp Scholar.”

7. $4.5 million to study the effects of the health risks of vanadium.

8. $3 million to test imported shrimp for antibiotics. (Does anyone think there is a big shrimp industry in Paul’s district?)

9. $10 million to repair the Galveston railways causeway bridge.

10. $1.18 million for “Personalized Medicine in Asthma”

11. $100,000 for a “data-driven automated system for nursing students on the Texas Gulf Coast.”

12. $257,000 to “prepare graduates from the doctoral program at the University of Texas Medical Branch School of Nursing to assume faculty roles in schools for nursing with a deficient number of doctoral level faculty.”

13. $1.4 million to buy buses for the Golden Crescent Regional Commission.

14. $2 million to buy buses for Galveston.

15. $5 million for highway spending.

16. $2 million to replace facilities for Galveston bus service.

17. $3 million to replace facilities for the Golden Crescent Regional bus facility.

18. $2 million to repair the Galveston trolley.

19. $2.14 million to renovate the Edna Theater.

20. $13 million for I-69 highway project.

21. $30 million the Texas Maritime Academy to refurbish a ship.

22. $4.5 million to maintain Cedar Bayou. Plus another $9 million

23. $15 million for “construction at GIWW Matagorda Bay.” Plus another $5.8 million

24. $100,000 to maintain Chocolate Bayou.

25. $2.5 million to maintain Double Bayou.
     
turtle777
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Jan 9, 2012, 10:58 PM
 
I have never been too outraged about all the pork.

In our political environment, that's what politicians are sent to Washington for, to help their community to get the most out of it. Don't blame them for doing the best they can for their voters.

Don't hate the player, hate the system.

What's corrupt is that Washington would collect money from ALL Americans (via Federal Taxes), just to turn around to redistribute it via whatever kinds of means. F*cking bills!t. THAT needs to stop. Stop the funding for pork, and you will stop politicians trying to help their communities.

-t
     
ebuddy
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Jan 10, 2012, 08:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I Googled "Ron Paul pork barrel spending" and found this list from a seeming anti-Paul blog entry.

Should Paul have rejected all these?
The question is, should you be paying for them? If the answer is no, well then Ron Paul is no different than any other member of Congress soaking you for enter pet project here. You've given us several hundred million reasons why Texas keeps sending him back to Washington, but this doesn't mean I should be supporting his bid for President. This combined with the fact that a legislator who's passed zero legislation in 30 years does not show the kind of leadership that will move anyone in any appreciable direction be it on civil liberties, the Constitution, or the budget. I just don't buy the notion that Paul is somehow a unique politician in any way other than being uniquely inept at politics at this level.

BTW yes, there's a big shrimp industry in Paul's district just like there's a big insurance industry in Washington, and a big pharmaceutical industry, and energy, automotive, mortgage, banking etc... Catering to "big industries" on your dime for political opportunism is certainly nothing new. While I don't "hate" Ron Paul and would certainly vote for him over Obama, there's nothing to convince me that he can beat Obama as few have spent more time in office with less to show for it.
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Jan 10, 2012, 08:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
a legislator who's passed zero legislation in 30 years does not show the kind of leadership that will move anyone in any appreciable direction be it on civil liberties, the Constitution, or the budget.
You might as well start standing on the street corner with a "Hope and Change" placard.

There's passing legislation for the sake of it to make a politico look like he's doing something and there's being the wedge who stops all the other morons from truly screwing things up. Learn the difference!
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ebuddy
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Jan 10, 2012, 08:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
You might as well start standing on the street corner with a "Hope and Change" placard.

There's passing legislation for the sake of it to make a politico look like he's doing something and there's being the wedge who stops all the other morons from truly screwing things up. Learn the difference!
His lonely naysaying in Washington hasn't stopped sh!t, least of which -- moronic spending.
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Jan 10, 2012, 08:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
His lonely naysaying in Washington hasn't stopped sh!t, least of which -- moronic spending.
Try electing him to a position where he's got a veto then.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
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ebuddy
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Jan 10, 2012, 09:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Try electing him to a position where he's got a veto then.
This isn't an absolute monarchy Doofy, the President has to be agreeable. If you can't move people, you can't move people. That's just reality with 30 years of evidence to support it. IMO, there's no reason I should "try" Paul.
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