[Taliesin]

Originally posted by Splinter:
Face facts Mac... the PA says it the IDF says it everyone realizes and there are witnesses hundreds of them that will tell you the IDF was not firing anything at that time. It was an accident and it was their fault and that poor girl paid the price.

Who is Mac?

The PA's motivation to say that it was probably an accident is to keep the calm and not to throw oil into the fire, afterall the PA has nothing to win by saying otherwise.

The IDF is under similar restrains.

I know that israeli snipers sometimes get bored and sometimes shoot palestinian civilians just for entertainment, I think that's one of those cases, but it's not the right time to discuss that in public, so it's the right decision of the PA and the IDF to put it under the carpet.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Update 7:

Egypt has invited Sharon and Abbas to a summit next tuesday.

Israel's security cabinet will meet this thursday to approve good-will gestures like prisoner-releases and withdrawal of israeli troops from some Westbank-towns and a possible suspension of targeted killings of palestinian militants.

Meanwhile palestinian security forces have destroyed a smuggling tunnel in Gaza in order to show that Abbas means it serious to restore law and order.

Next week Condoleeza Rice will make a trip to the region.

Here is the BBC-report:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4229007.stm

Taliesin

[Splinter]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Who is Mac?

The PA's motivation to say that it was probably an accident is to keep the calm and not to throw oil into the fire, afterall the PA has nothing to win by saying otherwise.

The IDF is under similar restrains.

I know that israeli snipers sometimes get bored and sometimes shoot palestinian civilians just for entertainment, I think that's one of those cases, but it's not the right time to discuss that in public, so it's the right decision of the PA and the IDF to put it under the carpet.

Taliesin

Like I said before the IDF are all bloodsucking maggots that love bathing in the blood of little children. As long as every single one of them is evil and has evil intentions then there is no way they would all say no shots were fired if it wasn�t true... how many times has something like this happened and the soldiers are the ones to complain about it... If they shot this girl there would be an uproar from within and without... I'm sorry if that bursts your bubbled view of these warmongers and sons of mongrel dogs but hey... You might want to consider that maybe there is a small chance that some have ethics and a voice of reason and are ultimately human with feelings of sorry over things like this. Just a thought.

[BoomStick]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Who is Mac?

I know that israeli snipers sometimes get bored and sometimes shoot palestinian civilians just for entertainment, I think that's one of those cases,

HOLY CRAP!!!

That's not just stupid, it's moonbat stupid!

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by Splinter:
how many times has something like this happened and the soldiers are the ones to complain about it... If they shot this girl there would be an uproar from within and without... I'm sorry if that bursts your bubbled view of these warmongers and sons of mongrel dogs but hey...

Strange why are you thinking I'm having the view that isreali soldiers are dogs or worse? I have never called any israeli with such profanities, even Sharon, the warcriminal and terrorist par excellence was never insulted by me.

But back to topic, snipers seldomly get blamed or punished, there was very seldom an uproar from within the ranks of the israeli army when an isreali sniper shot palestinian children and other civilians out of boredom and just for fun. And that has happened more often than you might think.

Sniper-shots are often made from far away and silent, and therefore there is often no easily traceable connection between a snipershot and a killed palestinian civilian, and so snipers can basically do what they want when they don't exaggerate.

But if a normal infantry-soldier shoots a child close up, then the story is a different one. But even in that case the uproar from within the army is only there when that soldier exaggerates and shoots a whole round or more into the same child. Just remember the last famous case, there the uproar came not because an israeli soldier killed a child, but because that soldier went to the child after he killed it from a distance, which is obviously a-ok, and finished his whole round into the dead body! By the way what punishment has he got?

Like already said, snipers have a blanque-cheque, because their shots are not easy to trace. They can always say that the palestinians shot, and the child was a victim of an accident.

Taliesin

[Splinter]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Strange why are you thinking I'm having the view that isreali soldiers are dogs or worse? I have never called any israeli with such profanities, even Sharon, the warcriminal and terrorist par excellence was never insulted by me.

But back to topic, snipers seldomly get blamed or punished, there was very seldom an uproar from within the ranks of the israeli army when an isreali sniper shot palestinian children and other civilians out of boredom and just for fun. And that has happened more often than you might think.

Sniper-shots are often made from far away and silent, and therefore there is often no easily traceable connection between a snipershot and a killed palestinian civilian, and so snipers can basically do what they want when they don't exaggerate.

But if a normal infantry-soldier shoots a child close up, then the story is a different one. But even in that case the uproar from within the army is only there when that soldier exaggerates and shoots a whole round or more into the same child. Just remember the last famous case, there the uproar came not because an israeli soldier killed a child, but because that soldier went to the child after he killed it from a distance, which is obviously a-ok, and finished his whole round into the dead body! By the way what punishment has he got?

Like already said, snipers have a blanque-cheque, because their shots are not easy to trace. They can always say that the palestinians shot, and the child was a victim of an accident.

Taliesin

I need to wear my tin foil hat when reading this. You�re talking as if it�s a common occurrence, which is why in your mind all those insults ring true about them. That�s why I said them. And you have no clue what kind of uproar there is inside the military every time they hear about some dumb fu<k soldier popping a kid or anyone for "$hits and giggles"

[Taliesin]

Update 8:
Now it's official, both Sharon and Abbas will meet in Egypt with Mubarak and the king of Jordan next tuesday.

Meanwhile Israel has confirmed that it will release five hundred palestinian prisoners in the next few days and some four hundred other palestinian prisoners later, and further confirmed that it will give up control over a few Westbank-towns.

Here is the BBC-report:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4233003.stm

Taliesin

[Splinter]

unfortunatly...

The Palestinians on Thursday rejected an Israeli offer to release 900 prisoners as a gesture to Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, calling the proposal "insulting."

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/536000.html

[Taliesin]

Update 9:

Today is the big day, Sharon and Abbas will meet in Egypt and probably declare a cease-fire, the end of israeli military operations and the end of the intifada.

Abbas will have to return to Gaza and explain everything face to face to Hamas and Hamas will then decide if it will take part in the cease-fire or not.

Here is the BBC-report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4245353.stm

Taliesin

[Splinter]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Hamas will then decide if it will take part in the cease-fire or not.

if they dont then it wont actually be an end to the intefada now will it...

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by Splinter:
if they dont then it wont actually be an end to the intefada now will it...

Hey, have you figured that out all by yourself, if so, props to you.

Taliesin

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Splinter:
if they dont then it wont actually be an end to the intefada now will it...

That depends on how you define intifada. The group founded by Arafat will be pretty much ended by this. Hamas, though it is related to this group, isn't the same thing. However, if Hamas continues when the other groups stop, then it will be shown for what most people already believe it really is: just a group of psychos.

[nath]

Originally posted by Millennium:
That depends on how you define intifada. The group founded by Arafat will be pretty much ended by this. Hamas, though it is related to this group, isn't the same thing. However, if Hamas continues when the other groups stop, then it will be shown for what most people already believe it really is: just a group of psychos.

Conversely, if Hamas does stop when the other groups stop, will you accept that 'most people' might be wrong?

[Splinter]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Hey, have you figured that out all by yourself, if so, props to you.

Taliesin

Hey man the point is that hamas may or may not be part of a cease-fire...

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Hamas will then decide if it will take part in the cease-fire or not.

A PART in the cease fie...as in if they are not there will still supposedly be a cease-fire... but hamas not stopping is no cease-fire at all...

[BoomStick]

Originally posted by Splinter:
... but hamas not stopping is no cease-fire at all...

Absolutely.

If hamas does something stupid the PA better start taking out it's own garbage or the IDF will.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Update 9:

Today is the big day, Sharon and Abbas will meet in Egypt and probably declare a cease-fire, the end of israeli military operations and the end of the intifada.

Abbas will have to return to Gaza and explain everything face to face to Hamas and Hamas will then decide if it will take part in the cease-fire or not.

Here is the BBC-report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4245353.stm

Taliesin

Some uplifting news for a change. Though of course after all the "peace agreements" that have occurred over the years you have to be prepared for more disappointment.

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Some uplifting news for a change. Though of course after all the "peace agreements" that have occurred over the years you have to be prepared for more disappointment.

Indeed, I remember quite well that during the peace-intitiatives of Oslo, Camp David and others before them, Israel always used the calm to further accelerate its settler-activities in the occupied areas, and the peace-preparations all had the goal of creating palestinian "homelands" excluding Jerusalem and the right of return for palestinians.

But I have the hope that people can learn from previous mistakes and work towards a souvereign palestinian state with East-Jerusalem as its capital and I hope that Israel uses the calm not to increase settler-activity in the Westbank but to reduce them, and to prepare the settlers in the Westbank to think about a decision they will have to make in the near future: If they want to live in a souvereign palestinian state, in which they will have same rights to palestinians (which means less water than now and less land than now, as now settlers are enjoying the benifits of an apartheit-regime) or if they want to go back to Israel.

Taliesin

[vmarks]

"The calm" you say?

The calm? Like the calm from the last so-called ceasefire, wherein Arafat and Abbas declared a calm, but Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade (part of Fatah, Abbas' and Arafat's own party) claimed responsibility for attacks?

There is no calm, and never has been whenever the PA declares a ceasefire. When they go to 'negotiate' (refuse to negotiate) they attack or allow attacks to proceed, and then whine to the world when the 'ceasefire' falls apart.

The truth is that when the PA rounds up terrorists in arrests, they release them a short while later. When the ceasefire is declared, it is in effect for as long as it takes for the PA to exact some concession, and then attacks resume. Hizballah and Hamas take the position that negotiation with Israel is forbidden- Arafat and Abbas took the position that if they can get concessions, autonomy, weapons, AND continue to attack, so much the better for them.

HERE IS YOUR CEASEFIRE:
http://israelnn.com/news.php3?id=76451

Terrorists Busy: Mortar Shells, Rockets and Gunfire
23:31 Feb 05, '05 / 26 Shevat 5765

Arab terrorists fired a Kassam rocket and mortar shells on two Jewish communities in Gaza and a Kibbutz in the western Negev over the weekend.

IDF soldiers also killed two terrorists trying to infiltrate from northern Gaza to launch a terror attack.

The rocket struck a hothouse in Morag in Gush Katif Friday night, but failed to explode. At the same time, a mortar shell fell near an IDF position in Gaza - failing to cause any injury. Terrorists fired another mortar shell toward Kibbutz Nahal Oz, in the western Negev and within Israel's pre-1967 borders. This was the first time in several days a shell or rocket landed inside the old border.

Terrorists also opened fire on IDF soldiers on the road to Netzarim as well as near the town of Neve Dekalin in Gush Katif. No one was injured and soldiers returned fire.

Palestinian Authority (PA) security forces reported they arrested three senior terrorists, but subsequently released them just hours later. They are members of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) who were likely involved in Thursday's attack on Israeli soldiers, two of whom were injured.

The PA arrested the terrorists with fanfare, stating that the anarchy will end and the only legal weapons will be those in the hands of PA security officials. The three terrorists briefly arrested included the commander and spokesman of the DFLP.

An Israeli defense official said, "We have seen in the past Palestinian arrests like these. For now, we don't see any change, and a short arrest like this is not new."

[nath]

Originally posted by vmarks:

HERE IS YOUR CEASEFIRE:
http://israelnn.com/news.php3?id=76451

Terrorists Busy: Mortar Shells, Rockets and Gunfire
23:31 Feb 05, '05 / 26 Shevat 5765

Arab terrorists fired a Kassam rocket and mortar shells on two Jewish communities in Gaza and a Kibbutz in the western Negev over the weekend.

Wasn't the ceasefire signed yesterday? This report refers to the weekend.

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by nath:
Wasn't the ceasefire signed yesterday? This report refers to the weekend.

Doesn't matter, obviously Hamas and Islamic Djihad that are active in Gaza don't want to take part in the cease-fire, because as they say they were not invited by Abbas to fulfill a role in the peace-process and because they want Israel first to release all palestinian prisoners.

It looks like Hamas is playing tactics, knowing pretty well that Israel would never release all palestinian prisoners at this point of time, so either they think that a peace-process with Israel is just a lost effort or they want to secure for themselves a political role in the PA in negotiations with Abbas before playing along.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by vmarks:
"The calm" you say?

The calm? Like the calm from the last so-called ceasefire, wherein Arafat and Abbas declared a calm, but Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade (part of Fatah, Abbas' and Arafat's own party) claimed responsibility for attacks?

You see only what you want to see, there was a calm before but Israel didn't keep the calm and continued to attack palestinian militants including collateral damage among civilians, but even more important increased its settler-activity and expropriations in the Westbank.

Abbas was for keeping up the calm regardless of what actions Israel took, because he thinks that a non-violent route will lead, with international pressure on Israel, to more concessions by Israel.

Now, Abbas' time has come to live his idea and obviously now he has got the Fatah under control and most of the other groups in the PLO, only the Hamas and Islamic Jihad are completely outside of his control, and by the way that was what Israel had planned years ago when it helped in the founding of the motherorganization of Hamas in Gaza.

So there are two possible strategies remaining, either to integrate Hamas into the PA or to confront them and risk civil war.

Taliesin

[vmarks]

I see the truth of the events, and you, you keep trying to dress up terrorists as having some sort of justification.

Israel ALWAYS waits out the ceasefire until attacked. Israel also never seems to learn that the Palestinians can't keep a ceasefire if it were to save their lives. Literally.

But don't believe me... believe the news:

http://israelnn.com/news.php3?id=76721
Ceasefire Explodes in Dozens of Mortar Shells and Rockets
13:59 Feb 10, '05 / 1 Adar 5765


No one was hurt in the attacks, though was one house in N'vei Dekalim suffered a direct hit, and electricity was out in most of Gush Katif - the bloc of Jewish communities in southern Gaza - for several hours.

The most recent shells landed in Netzarim, close to 11 AM, and three more in Morag around noon. Though Gush Katif has been pounded with well over 5,300 shells and rockets during the past four years, residents say they cannot remember such a large bombardment as the one that began early this morning.

On the one hand, the organized bombardment appears to be a direct result of the concessions that Prime Minister Sharon has made to the Palestinian Authority in recent days, and which continued even this morning. Katif.net reports that the north-south route that has long had an IDF checkpoint controlling its traffic is now open 24 hours a day to local Arab traffic, with no Israeli supervision. "This enables the terrorists to rearm and transport mortar shells from north to south with no disturbance," the site reports.

On the other hand, Kfar Darom spokesman Asher Mivtzari says the tremendous amount of mortar shells shows that there is guidance from higher political echelons. "We see that no shells have hit Sderot, while Gush Katif is pounded mercilessly," he said. "It is clear that Abu Mazen is allowing this, while at the same time receiving a signal from Sharon that it's OK to hit Gush Katif, as long as Sderot is left out of the equation."

"We call upon the Prime Minister and Defense Minister," said Gush Katif spokesman Eran Sternberg, "to open their eyes and see with whom we're making this imaginary peace, and to whom they're making the gestures [of removing roadblocks, releasing prisoners, and the like]."

The first shells started blasting N'vei Dekalim close to 2 AM, and continued throughout the night. One shell landed directly in the shower stall of a home, and miraculously, no one was hurt. Electricity throughout Gush Katif, except for Moshav Katif and Netzer Hazani, was knocked out, apparently by a mortar shell, at 4 AM, until around 9:30. In between, another round of at least seven shells hit Atzmonah, and two Kassam rockets were fired this morning at N'vei Dekalim and Katif.

MK Uri Ariel (National Union) said very simply, "Sharon has abandoned Gush Katif and its residents; the fact that there have been no wounded has nothing to do with him... The soldiers can no longer merely open fire on suspected infiltrators; they have to ask permission from their higher-ups, and it takes a while. All the Hamas leaders have now come out of their holes, and are walking around free, preparing for the next round of terror."

MK Zevulun Orlev (National Religious Party) has called upon the government to cease all goodwill gestures to the PA following the bombardment.

Hamas took credit for the bombardment of Gush Katif, stating it was in retaliation for Israel's shooting last night at a group of four Arabs. The four were attempting to infiltrate the community of Atzmonah, having reached to within 40 meters of the fence, and were shot while in an area well-known as being banned to Arabs. Another terrorist was killed nearby when the bomb he was trying to place blew up in his hands.

In the meanwhile, the gestures towards the Palestinian Authority continue even today. The Erez Crossing, closed following terror attacks, was opened to 2,000 workers today, and family visits are also being permitted across the Gaza border.

Gaza Coast Regional Council chief Avner Shimoni said that the IDF must take action to stop the attacks. Minister Chaim Ramon (Labor) said that Israel is still awaiting action by Abu Mazen in this direction.

A large solidarity rally for Gush Katif is scheduled for this Monday afternoon, with buses scheduled to arrive from all over the country. An 11.5-minute English film, entitled "Gush Katif Forever", contrasting the residents' serene lives of agriculture and faith with the Palestinian violence that has terrorized them for years, can be seen here. Produced several months ago, the number of shells specified in the film - 4,200 - is off by more than 1,000.

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by vmarks:
I see the truth of the events, and you, you keep trying to dress up terrorists as having some sort of justification.

Israel ALWAYS waits out the ceasefire until attacked. Israel also never seems to learn that the Palestinians can't keep a ceasefire if it were to save their lives. Literally.

Terrorists have no justification and I have always condemned israeli terrorists that call themselves IDF-soldiers or Shin-Beth- or Mossad-agents.

Hamas, eventhough it has developed a partly racistic ideology and uses guerillia-warfare as well as retaliations for killed civilians is not a terroristic organization.

Like you are so keen on historical numbers, chew on that a bit: In over hundred years, since the first non-arabic jew arrived in Palestine up until today, about 24,000 israelis/jews, including civilians and soldiers, died through arabic riots, arabic wars and palestinian retaliations and guess what? Israel was able to kill 24,000 lebanese/palestinian civilians in just about a few months of the year 1982 add to that the numerous palestinian deaths of the jewish terrorism before Israel's creation, and the deaths through the 48/49-war and the deaths of the 67-war and not to forget the massacres in the 50's by Sharon's Unit 101 and the deaths during occupation of Gaza and Westbank and the numerous Lebanon-wars, etc.. tell me what number you get.

Besides, Israel doesn't wait out ceasefires, like in the case that is the topic of:

Update 10

Ceasefire was broken by Israel's army in Gaza, they shot dead a palestinian man walking near a settlement. Israel's army says it did so as they thought it was a palestinian militant. Hamas tries to retaliate by firing mortar shells on a nearby israeli settlement. Abbas fires Gaza's security-chiefs because they haven't prevented the firing of mortar shells in Gaza. Today Abbas will meet with Hamas to convince them to take part in the cease-fire and not to react to israeli provocations.

Meanwhile Sharon has said he is willing to release even palestinian prisoners that were directly involved in killing or hurting israelis, if the Gaza-pullout goes over smoothly.

Here is the BBC-report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4254725.stm

Taliesin

[vmarks]

There you go again.

Hamas and Hizballah are terrorists. The Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade are terrorists. The EU knows it. The US knows it. Israel knows it.

Everyone acknowledges this but terrorist sympathizers.

The man 'walking too close to a settlement' was no innocent.

Next thing I know you'll be accusing Israel for the death of the hapless PA terrorist whose bomb blew himself up before he could take any Jews with him.

[Salah al-Din]

Originally posted by vmarks:
The man 'walking too close to a settlement' was no innocent.

What did he do? Give the IOF the evil eye?

[vmarks]

walking in a no-man's land attempting to infiltrate a community to detonate an explosive isn't enough for you?

[Salah al-Din]

Originally posted by vmarks:
walking in a no-man's land attempting to infiltrate a community to detonate an explosive isn't enough for you?

And what have you to support that claim. The Israelis say that "An Israeli military source said soldiers suspected a militant infiltration and fired warning shots."

Keyword there is suspected. They would have said that he was about to do that if they were sure. But they only "suspect" it now.




OT: I can't post in the other thread(your question about kitman and taqqiyya. It never finished loading. Could you take a look at that, please?

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
And what have you to support that claim. The Israelis say that "An Israeli military source said soldiers suspected a militant infiltration and fired warning shots."

Keyword there is suspected. They would have said that he was about to do that if they were sure. But they only "suspect" it now.




OT: I can't post in the other thread(your question about kitman and taqqiyya. It never finished loading. Could you take a look at that, please?

No, the Israelis don't say that "An Israeli military source said soldiers suspected a militant infiltration..." the BBC said that. The Israelis do not issue reports in third person as you suggest.

There were four militants, not one, and they were attempting an infiltration into a community by crossing in a no man's land. They were attempting to infiltrate the same village that was fired on with mortars.

OT: server hiccup. There's nothing in that thread in the way of images or videos that would cause it to load slowly.

[Salah al-Din]

Originally posted by vmarks:
No, the Israelis don't say that "An Israeli military source said soldiers suspected a militant infiltration..." the BBC said that. The Israelis do not issue reports in third person as you suggest.

There were four militants, not one, and they were attempting an infiltration into a community by crossing in a no man's land. They were attempting to infiltrate the same village that was fired on with mortars.

OT: server hiccup. There's nothing in that thread in the way of images or videos that would cause it to load slowly.

And you have a link for that?


OT: k, I'll just keep on trying.

[Taliesin]

Update 11:

Hamas and Islamic Jihad have agreed with Abbas to keep an undeclared ceasefire, which Hamas plans to turn into an official ceasefire, after it has reflected upon the news Abbas brought and after it has judged, if Israel keeps true to its word of a ceasefire, and also after Israel has made clear which prisoners will be freed in the coming weeks...

An interesting notion is that Hamas has promised "to consult Mr Abbas's administration on what he called "the mechanism for the retaliation"".

Meanwhile Israel has decided to let about 60 deported palestinian resistance-fighters back into the Westbank and has promised not to emprison them.

Here is the BBC-report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4260689.stm

Taliesin

[typoon]

Let's hope the cease fire holds. I hope there will be peace in that region. Both peoples innocents have suffered long enough.

I unfortunately don't think it will hold. Hamas and the other terrorist organizations and states want to and would love to see the destruction of Israel. I hope I'm proven wrong on this.

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by typoon:
Let's hope the cease fire holds. I hope there will be peace in that region. Both peoples innocents have suffered long enough.

I unfortunately don't think it will hold. Hamas and the other terrorist organizations and states want to and would love to see the destruction of Israel. I hope I'm proven wrong on this.

Off course they want the destruction of Israel as they see it as an illegal state and I agree with them on that, though I don't agree with their abuse of Islam for their guerillia-warfare, as much as Sharon and the zionists seek the destruction of Palestine before it materialises, as it would hinder them at their great goal of the recreation of ancient Israel..

Eventhough that is the reality, there is still peace possible, afterall you don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Update 12:
Ceasefire was broken again by Israel's army, this time near a settlement in the Westbank, where they shot dead two palestinian militants of the Al-Aksa-Brigades.
Meanwhile Sharon has said he will coordinate the Gaza-pullout with the palestinian authority, and he also said he will not bow down to threats by radical israelis, who are opposed to the Gaza-pullout.

Here is the BBC-report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4268855.stm

Problems arised with Israel's promised withdrawal from Jericho, which is now delayed, because the israeli army doesn't want to withdraw completely from Jericho and espescially doesn't want that the checkpoints are removed in Jericho and at the front of Jericho. Here is the BBC-report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4266395.stm

Taliesin

[vmarks]

Shooting criminals is not breaking the ceasefire, those militants committing acts requiring their shooting is.

Especially when http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...fective_police

KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip - Palestinian policemen, who have been given the task of restraining militants, say they can't or won't do the job. Interviewed at their front-line positions, some say they feel sympathy for the gunmen, while others fear getting shot at by Israeli troops.


The shortcomings of Palestinian police were evident last week when officers stood by as Hamas militants fired dozens of rockets and mortar rounds at Jewish settlements in Gaza. Officers also did nothing when gunmen broke into Gaza's central jail, killing two inmates and abducting a third who was later slain.

_________

But it's worse thatn that:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1108437732528

About 350 Palestinian gunmen will be incorporated into the Palestinian Authority security forces soon as part of a deal reached between PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas and leaders of all the Palestinian factions, The Jerusalem Post has learned.

The militiamen, who are on Israel's list of wanted terrorists, belong to various factions, including Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

This is the first time that members of Hamas and Islamic Jihad would serve in the PA security forces....

"The fugitives who will join the security forces belong to all the Palestinian groups and factions," Naja said. "The move is designed to protect them against Israeli assassination attempts."

____________

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, not only will the PA police NOT stop terror attacks, their ranks will now be comprised of terrorists. Officially.

[Salah al-Din]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Shooting criminals is not breaking the ceasefire, those militants committing acts requiring their shooting is.

And what "acts" were they committing at the time they were killed? Because it doesn't matter what they did before. That is what a truce means.

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, not only will the PA police NOT stop terror attacks, their ranks will now be comprised of terrorists. Officially.

Do you condemn Israel as much for both electing known terrorists as well as integrating various terrorist groups into the IDF?

[Taliesin]

I just found this interesting BBC-report about charges three medical organizations made about how the barrier is harming palestinian health in the Westbank:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4268079.stm

Taliesin

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
And what "acts" were they committing at the time they were killed? Because it doesn't matter what they did before. That is what a truce means.

Do you condemn Israel as much for both electing known terrorists as well as integrating various terrorist groups into the IDF?

There was no truce, there was a cease-fire. Which was IMMEDIATELY broken by your precious terrorist 'militants' with mortar, rocket, and bombing attacks. Feb 10.

You go on and on claiming the early Israelis were terrorists, but it just doesn't stand up. They warned everyone before any violence took place. They attacked military installations and did not massacre anyone.

Let's see:

a) when did Palestinian terrorists ever warn Israelis of an attack? Never.

b) when did you ever condemn Palestinian terrorism, and can you name Palestinians you would consider terrorists? Using the word militant is concealing the truth.

[Salah al-Din]

Originally posted by vmarks:
There was no truce, there was a cease-fire. Which was IMMEDIATELY broken by your precious terrorist 'militants' with mortar, rocket, and bombing attacks. Feb 10.

Show me one instance where I have said anything that could be understand as thinking terrorists are "precious"!

You go on and on claiming the early Israelis were terrorists, but it just doesn't stand up. They warned everyone before any violence took place. They attacked military installations and did not massacre anyone.

So ETA aren't terrorists? Interesting train of "thought". And wasn't there any massacre at the King David Hotel? Was there no massacre in Sabra and Shatilla?

b) when did you ever condemn Palestinian terrorism, and can you name Palestinians you would consider terrorists? Using the word militant is concealing the truth.

Every single time a suicide bomber kills Israelis inside Israel. Can I name Palestinians who I consider terrorists? No, I do not try to remember the names of terrorists. But I consider every single Palestinian who kills innocent Israelis inside Israel a terrorist.

See that is the difference between you and me. I condemn the terrorists on "my side". You on the other hand seem to think that Israelis(or is it just Jews?) are beyond reproach. I have never called you a terrorist sympathiser but you have started doing that in every post now. That is the difference between you and me. Is it Judaism or just your personality that makes you attack other people? IMO it's your personality because Judaism as I know it doesn't promote that. Can you say the same about Islam? I doubt it because you spend most of your time here attacking both people and the religion of Islam. What a great example of the "moderation" this forum wants.

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by vmarks:
There was no truce, there was a cease-fire. Which was IMMEDIATELY broken by your precious terrorist 'militants' with mortar, rocket, and bombing attacks. Feb 10.

Actually on Feb 10, the ceasefire was broken by Israel first, whose army shot dead a palestinian man! Then Hamas fired mortars as retaliation. By the way the retaliation was unsuccessful as it killed noone on Israel's side. And a few days later Israel's army broke the ceasefire again, this time by killing two palestinian militants in the Westbank.


Taliesin

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
Show me one instance where I have said anything that could be understand as thinking terrorists are "precious"!


So ETA aren't terrorists? Interesting train of "thought". And wasn't there any massacre at the King David Hotel? Was there no massacre in Sabra and Shatilla?

Who said anything about ETA? As far as I can recall, neither you nor I have ever brought them up before.

As for Sabra and Shatilla, the Christian Phalange massacred the Muslims there in response to dhimmitude- it was a direct response to the oppression they had endured.

The King David Hotel was a military installation of the British Army, and the Israelis called ahead 30 minutes in advance to warn the British that they had time to avoid any deaths.

Every single time a suicide bomber kills Israelis inside Israel. Can I name Palestinians who I consider terrorists? No, I do not try to remember the names of terrorists. But I consider every single Palestinian who kills innocent Israelis inside Israel a terrorist.

See that is the difference between you and me. I condemn the terrorists on "my side".

Condemn for me Yassin, Arafat, Rantisi, Barghouti, Khaddoumi... the list is long.

You're practicing a nice bit of qualification and deceit there: you say 'innocent' Israelis - but the so-called 'militant' justification is that there are no "innocent" Israelis because they have all been in the military at some time, or because they are complicit in having voted for their leaders.

You on the other hand seem to think that Israelis(or is it just Jews?) are beyond reproach. I have never called you a terrorist sympathiser but you have started doing that in every post now. That is the difference between you and me.

Actually, I have condemned and called for the resignation of Israeli leaders in these forums.

Is it Judaism or just your personality that makes you attack other people? IMO it's your personality because Judaism as I know it doesn't promote that. Can you say the same about Islam? I doubt it because you spend most of your time here attacking both people and the religion of Islam. What a great example of the "moderation" this forum wants.

I am simply not going to stand idly by while you whitewash terrorists, ignore or defend the justification in Islam that terrorists use to attack Jews and Christians, and then blame me for bias- neutrality helps the oppressor, never the oppressed.

I actually have a pro-Palestinian position: When Palestinians give up the hope of eradicating Israel, which Farouk Khaddoumi (PA minister) admits they hold, then peace can exist. The sooner Palestinians give up this goal of eradicating Israel, the sooner we can all move forward with an economy of trade and diplomacy that benefits Palestinians AND Israelis. But first they have to lose the hope of eradicating Israel, which will stop the attacks, and stop Khaddoumi's talk of a two-state solution as temporary means from which to push Israel into the sea.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Actually on Feb 10, the ceasefire was broken by Israel first, whose army shot dead a palestinian man! Then Hamas fired mortars as retaliation. By the way the retaliation was unsuccessful as it killed noone on Israel's side. And a few days later Israel's army broke the ceasefire again, this time by killing two palestinian militants in the Westbank.


Taliesin

Can you break an already broken cease-fire?

Maybe that explains the Palestinian attitude- break the cease-fire, and then claim it isn't -really- broken, and then break it again, and claim the Israelis are breaking it.

The mortars and rockets came before the militants trying to infiltrate the community, and the man was shot in that attempt.

What am I supposed to say about your so-called 'retaliation' attacks? That because they weren't successful, they aren't important? Thank G-d they weren't successful, but they still represent a willingness to kill regardless of the cease-fire Abbas agreed to.

[Salah al-Din]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Who said anything about ETA? As far as I can recall, neither you nor I have ever brought them up before.

As for Sabra and Shatilla, the Christian Phalange massacred the Muslims there in response to dhimmitude- it was a direct response to the oppression they had endured.

The King David Hotel was a military installation of the British Army, and the Israelis called ahead 30 minutes in advance to warn the British that they had time to avoid any deaths.

You are using the exact same justification for the slaughter of innocent as ETA and IRA use and have used. It's disgusting to see a moderator justify massacres.

You've just tried to justify and excuse the slaughter of about 3000 human beings. Of them about 2750 completely innocent civilians who were mostly women and children.

Condemn for me Yassin, Arafat, Rantisi, Barghouti, Khaddoumi... the list is long.

Why do I need to condemn anything for you? You've just tried to justify and excuse the murder of 3000 human beings. If you expect me from now on to have any kind of respect for you, you are sadly mistaken.

You're practicing a nice bit of qualification and deceit there: you say 'innocent' Israelis - but the so-called 'militant' justification is that there are no "innocent" Israelis because they have all been in the military at some time, or because they are complicit in having voted for their leaders.

Did I say that? Why don't you ****ing ask me if I think so?

Actually, I have condemned and called for the resignation of Israeli leaders in these forums.

Which ones and for what? Sharon for not killing enough innocent Palestinians?

I am simply not going to stand idly by while you whitewash terrorists, ignore or defend the justification in Islam that terrorists use to attack Jews and Christians, and then blame me for bias- neutrality helps the oppressor, never the oppressed.

Where the **** have I "whitewashed" terrorism? You are the one who in this exact thread tried to justify or excuse the slaughter of 3000 innocent civilians.

I actually have a pro-Palestinian position: When Palestinians give up the hope of eradicating Israel, which Farouk Khaddoumi (PA minister) admits they hold, then peace can exist. The sooner Palestinians give up this goal of eradicating Israel, the sooner we can all move forward with an economy of trade and diplomacy that benefits Palestinians AND Israelis. But first they have to lose the hope of eradicating Israel, which will stop the attacks, and stop Khaddoumi's talk of a two-state solution as temporary means from which to push Israel into the sea.

Give me a break

So in your opinion these following events aren't terrorist actions.

1. marketplace bomb in Haifa, February 27, 1939. 24 dead, 39 injured.
2. bombing of the British Embassy in Rome the year 1946.
3. The bombing of a Police station in Haifa killing 10 the year 47.
4. Handgrenade attack on a cafe in Jerusalem the year 1947 killing 13.
5. The attack at Deir Yassin(watch as vmarks starts the revisionism) killing at least 107 civilians.
6. The assassination of Lord Moyne the year 1944.

The list goes on but I will forever remember your attempt at justifying or excusing the murder of 3000 human beings.

[Splinter]

Update 13:

Hamas: No truce if all Palestinian prisoners aren't released

You have GOT to be kidding me!

They are making excuses... impossible demands so they dont have to keep the truce but still look like they were willing.

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Can you break an already broken cease-fire?

Hmm, that's actually an interesting question and the answer is, that the PA has given Israel the benifit of the doubt and simply forgiven/ignored the first breaking of the ceasefire in Gaza. Sure, Hamas has tried to retaliate, but the PA and its militant wings kept calm nonetheless. Then Israel broke the ceasefire again by killing members of the Al-Aksa-Brigades in the Westbank, which shows that Israel's government has a worse control over its army and soldiers, than the PA has over the islamistic movements in Gaza. Or was it Sharon's intention to provoke a reaction of palestinians? I'm still not sure about that.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by Splinter:

Hamas: No truce if all Palestinian prisoners aren't released

You have GOT to be kidding me!

They are making excuses... impossible demands so they dont have to keep the truce but still look like they were willing.

Palestinian prisoners in Israel are not criminals but prisoners of war, and therefore I think it's absolutely necessary that all palestinian prisoners get released. But I don't think it should be done at once, it should be integrated into the new peace-process, during which palestinian prisoners get released gradually, let's say a thousand every year, with the last batch freed upon signing of a permanent peace-agreement.

Taliesin

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Palestinian prisoners in Israel are not criminals but prisoners of war, and therefore I think it's absolutely necessary that all palestinian prisoners get released. But I don't think it should be done at once, it should be integrated into the new peace-process, during which palestinian prisoners get released gradually, let's say a thousand every year, with the last batch freed upon signing of a permanent peace-agreement.

Taliesin

Come off of it.

Firing Qassam rockets and mortars on pre-schools is not a criminal act?

Blowing up shopping malls is not a criminal act?

Shooting Tali Hatuel and her babies seatbelted in their car at point-blank range was not a criminal act?

You are kidding yourself - you want murderers to be released.

First, the PA breaks the cease-fire and claims it isn't broken (happened the last time Abbas was PM as well) and now you want 7000+ murderers released, so that they can commit further acts of terror.

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Come off of it.

Firing Qassam rockets and mortars on pre-schools is not a criminal act?

Blowing up shopping malls is not a criminal act?

Shooting Tali Hatuel and her babies seatbelted in their car at point-blank range was not a criminal act?

You are kidding yourself - you want murderers to be released.

First, the PA breaks the cease-fire and claims it isn't broken (happened the last time Abbas was PM as well) and now you want 7000+ murderers released, so that they can commit further acts of terror.

Hmm, the israeli army killed 24,000 lebanese/palestinian civilians in just a few months of 1982, and yet noone on the side of Israel sits behind bars because of it, quite to the contrary the defense-minister who equipped, trained and ordered the christian militants to commit two massacres on palestinian children, women and elderly in Lebanon, on top of week-long israeli airbombardments, has even become the primeminister of Israel.

Taliesin

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Hmm, the israeli army killed 24,000 lebanese/palestinian civilians in just a few months of 1982, and yet noone on the side of Israel sits behind bars because of it, quite to the contrary the defense-minister who equipped, trained and ordered the christian militants to commit two massacres on palestinian children, women and elderly in Lebanon, on top of week-long israeli airbombardments, has even become the primeminister of Israel.

Taliesin

Again, you revise history.

The truth is that the christian phalange was recruited to root out PLO terrorists. They instead went and massacred Palestinians in response to their poor treatment as dhimmi and for the assassination of President Bashir. The fact that took place was a tragedy, but it was not a plan of Israel. People didn't think Sharon should resign because he was responsible somehow, they thought he should resign because he hadn't forseen that such a massacre would take place.

As for prosecuting Israeli soldiers that do commit crimes, you may recall the IDF commander accused of killing a 13-year old girl, Iman al-Hams? Shot 20 times? It didn't happen like that. She wasn't shot 20 times, the commander was put on trial and is being acquitted, because his troops made the accusations up. http://israelnn.com/news.php3?id=76567

This isn't the first time IDF have been prosecuted and jailed for crimes that did take place. Given that this was made up, and the Palestinians make up false reports, ( http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...archive:search ) we're still left where we began two posts ago:

You called for the release of 7000+ convicted criminals, most of them murderers or accesories to murder, and claimed they weren't criminals. I asked you to confirm or deny whether firing rockets on a pre-school was criminal, whether or not murdering babies seatbelted in the back of a car was criminal, and you dodged, shifting instead to re-write history on an event from over 20 years ago.

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Again, you revise history.

The truth is that the christian phalange was recruited to root out PLO terrorists. They instead went and massacred Palestinians in response to their poor treatment as dhimmi and for the assassination of President Bashir. The fact that took place was a tragedy, but it was not a plan of Israel. People didn't think Sharon should resign because he was responsible somehow, they thought he should resign because he hadn't forseen that such a massacre would take place.

What you have just said is the result of an investigation done by Israel and the investigation was per design created to save the face of Israel and its whole government in front of worldpublic and to prevent that Israel gets marked as a rogue-state. The involvement of Sharon in the massacres goes actually deeper than just a lapse of caution and naivity as the investigation tried to portray it:
- It was clear to Sharon that the PLO-militants left Lebanon, and the PLO did so according to the cease-fire-plan at that time and moved to Syria. Those who stayed in the refuggeecamps were the women, children and parents of the militants and Sharon knew that pretty well.
- Sharon's plan was to defeat the PLO by rooting out the civilians that were the backbone of the PLO, the children, the wifes and parents. This is actually the same tactic the sudanese government uses against the rebels in East-Sudan.
-He tried the best he could do with week-long israeli airbombardments on the refuggeecamps as well as Beirut, but he didn't want to send in israeli soldiers to do the face-to-face massacre against the civilians that hided in the ruins and cellars of the refuggeecamps, that survived the airbombadments.
- So, Sharon sent in christian militants that Israel equipped and trained to do the dirty work and ordered the israeli army that surrounded the camps to not let any one escape and to not intervene.
- It was planned that they would conduct the massacre until all civilians in the camps were dead, but "unfortunately" for Sharon they had only two days because somehow the news of the massacre came to the US-media as well as to the White House, and Israel was ordered by the White House to stop the massacres immediately.
- During the two days of the massacres the israeli soldiers surrounding the camps not only saw and heard everything going on there, they indeed helped the christian militants by refreshing their ammunition and offering meals and rest, and by sending back any civilians trying to escape the camps.

Originally posted by vmarks:
As for prosecuting Israeli soldiers that do commit crimes, you may recall the IDF commander accused of killing a 13-year old girl, Iman al-Hams? Shot 20 times? It didn't happen like that. She wasn't shot 20 times, the commander was put on trial and is being acquitted, because his troops made the accusations up. http://israelnn.com/news.php3?id=76567

Thank you for proving my point, the defenseminister that ordered airbombardments against refuggeecamps as well as sending in christian militants to do the dirty work of massacres for his country gets spoken free and becomes primeminister, a soldier that shoots a girl 20 times and gets accused of going over-the-top (read, he didn't get prosecuted because he killed a palestinian girl, but because he exaggerated and did more than killing her), gets free again. Knowing pretty well how the israeli army tries to protect itself from emprisonment, I'm not surprised that the troops withdrew their statements, I guess the pressure on them was too high.

Originally posted by vmarks:
This isn't the first time IDF have been prosecuted and jailed for crimes that did take place. Given that this was made up, and the Palestinians make up false reports, ( http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...archive:search )

Hmm, I've read the page you linked to, and it says nothing about palestinians making false reports, it just says that the cam-footage doesn't clearly show if the boy was killed by palestinian fire or israeli fire, that's all.

Originally posted by vmarks:
we're still left where we began two posts ago:

You called for the release of 7000+ convicted criminals, most of them murderers or accesories to murder, and claimed they weren't criminals. I asked you to confirm or deny whether firing rockets on a pre-school was criminal, whether or not murdering babies seatbelted in the back of a car was criminal, and you dodged, shifting instead to re-write history on an event from over 20 years ago.

It's not my habit to answer provocative rethorical questions, but since you insist, I will do you the favour:

If Palestine were not occupied and the israeli army wouldn't kill civilians, let's not forget at a 5x-rate compared to palestinian militants, then yes it would be a criminal act to kill israeli civilians, but that is not the situation. The situation is that the killing of israeli civilians is a retaliation for killed civilians among palestinians, or do you want to suggest that israeli lifes are more precious than palestinian lifes?

It's a guerillia-warfare that was happening, in which one side had all the equipment, the intelligence, the support of the US, jets, tanks, rockets and a functioning state to support the armies and the other side...
The good equipped side used its strenght to drive out the weaker side, to send out settlers into occupied territories and to expropriate the weaker side from most of its land and water and to undermine its political will of self-determination.

All people that are caught during the guerillia-war are not criminals but prisoners of war, no matter if they have commited retaliations for killed civilians among their own population or just attacked israeli soldiers, so off course they have to be set free gradually, all of them.

You are puzzled why I'm talking about the 24,000 killed lebanese and palestinian civilians, that the israeli army killed in 1982: It's because that's about the same amount the arabs+palestinians killed among the jews/israelis, civilians and soldiers, in the time-frame of over hundred years!

That's not dodging, that's actually offering perspective.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Update 13:

Egypt has named a new ambassador for Israel and Jordan has sent a new ambassador to Israel after four years of absence.
Meanwhile Sharon feels misunderstood in Egypt, since:

"Egyptians have an image of Sharon as an extremist and a killer of Palestinians. For the Egyptian government, it's time to give another impression of Sharon," Rashwan said in comments quoted by Reuters news agency.

Read it up in this BBC-report:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4288007.stm

Taliesin