[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by freudling 

His unwillingness to accept anything but perfection.

I'm not certain how you can say this, when there are *many* examples of imperfection from Apple under Jobs' watch. I think you're a little too eager to put him up on a pedestal.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

No we don't, Steve Jobs has not been made into a Caprica avatar.

Well, despite those people who just regurgitate what the media says... Like the article that went viral about not asking what Steve would do and all of a sudden because some journalist wrote an article that stated this everyone polarizes their opinion to conform with that. Then Gruber with his deep bench stuff.

Screw that thinking. And the data shows some solid examples of successful tech companies imploding once the founder(s) depart. Apple was no exception the first time around. I am looking to Steve for guidance. We should ask what he would do and the reason is simple: he knew what he was doing in a sea of complete failure.

I have no idea if Apple will in fact undo itself moving forward. But my opinion is that they are slowing.

Anyway, I just see some really weird UI stuff here and I wonder what's up.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I'm not certain how you can say this, when there are *many* examples of imperfection from Apple under Jobs' watch. I think you're a little too eager to put him up on a pedestal.

I'll start:

iTunes
The first gen MacBook ****ing Air. Pretty, but gawd, what a piece of shit.
Ping
MobileMe
The Cube
iPhone 1 with a Faraday cage for a back
iCloud
4s battery life
Final Cut X
You're holding it wrong

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I'm not certain how you can say this, when there are *many* examples of imperfection from Apple under Jobs' watch. I think you're a little too eager to put him up on a pedestal.

Maybe you can explain why we shouldn't put him on a pedestal.

[freudling]

iTunes (put Apple on the map)
The first gen MacBook ****ing Air. Pretty, but gawd, what a piece of shit. (was nice but was a piece of shit)
Ping (I like it)
MobileMe (loved MMe. Initial road bumps with lots of downtime but was really good)
The Cube (no idea)
iPhone 1 with a Faraday cage for a back (loved it)
iCloud (love it, specially in Mountain Lion. I've ditched my server. Email, calendar, reminders... All staff on iCloud now... documents...)
4s battery life (It is shit, but this is really post Jobs.)
Final Cut X (no clue but post Jobs I think)
You're holding it wrong (this was idiotic I agree but he had to bullshit through it)

[Doc HM]

Mac OSX interface inconsistency is what you get when you massage a broken metaphor. The whole desktop, files folders thing was great way bud when but realistically it's a different computing world now and computer UI's haven't really flexed to fit. Mostly because of the massive built in user base inertia now.

That said, in my opinion, address book and iCal are inexcusable.

[subego]

Originally Posted by freudling 

iTunes (put Apple on the map)
The first gen MacBook ****ing Air. Pretty, but gawd, what a piece of shit. (was nice but was a piece of shit)
Ping (I like it)
MobileMe (loved MMe. Initial road bumps with lots of downtime but was really good)
The Cube (no idea)
iPhone 1 with a Faraday cage for a back (loved it)
iCloud (love it, specially in Mountain Lion. I've ditched my server. Email, calendar, reminders... All staff on iCloud now... documents...)
4s battery life (It is shit, but this is really post Jobs.)
Final Cut X (no clue but post Jobs I think)
You're holding it wrong (this was idiotic I agree but he had to bullshit through it)

I'm not claiming you can't get anything out of what I listed, I'm claiming these are far from perfection.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

No we don't, Steve Jobs has not been revealed to the public as a Caprica avatar.

Fixed.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by subego 

I'm not claiming you can't get anything out of what I listed, I'm claiming these are far from perfection.

Fifteen years of post-Amelio design crisis!

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

<List of Apple products>

A lot of the things you have listed (the original iPhone, iCloud, the original MacBook Air and Final Cut Pro X, for instance) are still emerging technologies, they're in their spring. Even though they're not feature-complete yet (which I take it you meant by saying they're not »perfect«), they are not failures like Ping or MobileMe. I wouldn't have used them as examples of Apple's failure since they pointed in exactly the right direction.

To me, Apple's failures are technologies and services that haven't panned out, because they went in the wrong direction: for me, that's mostly MobileMe and the direction iTunes is headed towards. I wish Apple made a Music app on the Mac that just plays music for me. Perhaps Apple will oblige in 10.9?

[subego]

An emerging technology can be "perfect". Take the original iPod.

Most of the examples I gave didn't have a problem with yet to be implemented features, the problem was the features they were implemented with were garbage. The original iPhone barely worked as a phone. The MBA and the Cube cooked themselves. iCloud sorta worked, but was enormously complicated and poorly explained. Except for Match, which you had to wait for.

[subego]

I mean, isn't Apple famous for blowing revision A?

They still do it. The only difference is they make it painless to get replacements.

[OreoCookie]

@subego
The reason I strongly disagree with most of your examples is that most of them were improvement-worthy realizations of very good and forward-thinking ideas, that's the important part. And Apple has a very good track record of iterating badly implemented features, especially when compared to other companies which make similar products. In these cases, Apple was skating where the puck was going to be, and (with the exception of the Cube) turned out to be financial success stories for Apple's bottom line.

Real failures such as Ping and MobileMe are examples where Apple went into the wrong direction and arrived exactly nowhere. They are implementations of »bad« ideas, whether the implementation is good or bad doesn't really matter. (The fact that MobileMe's implementation wasn't good either didn't help )

And of course, the jury is still out on some of their products (Siri and Final Cut Pro X come to mind), but Apple is making a bet that the direction they are taking is the right one.

Originally Posted by subego 

An emerging technology can be "perfect". Take the original iPod.

I didn't think the original iPod was perfect, the battery life was rather short compared to later models. The point in that case was not »perfection«, but that the iPod was <Steve voice>waaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy</Steve voice> better than the competition. And it is the perfect example where Apple had foreseen the right solution to a problem. (To be fair I had a second-gen 20 GB iPod, the largest iPod ever made, but my former boss had a first-gen iPod )

Originally Posted by subego 

The original iPhone barely worked as a phone. The MBA and the Cube cooked themselves. iCloud sorta worked, but was enormously complicated and poorly explained. Except for Match, which you had to wait for.

I don't think this is an accurate assessment: how you rate these products depends very much on your expectations of these products. Back in the day, I knew quite a few people who adored their Cube, who wouldn't want to give it away even for a more powerful machine. Similarly, another former boss of mine owns a second-gen MacBook Air (still in the first-gen form factor, but with a slightly faster CPU), and he loves it. Ever since the release, I have seen tons of colleagues with Airs on conferences. But their computing needs are different from mine and probably yours. Similarly, some people loved their 12" PowerBooks, but I found them lacking and a bad value (I had one as a work machine back in the day).

What I'm saying is this: I don't see a fault in making a product that even though it has initially some flaws and/or satisfies the needs of a fringe market, but has a great idea at its core. There are some products which you need to iterate on for several generations until you get it completely right. The MacBook Air is a prime example: it used to be a niche product with a whimpy cpu and a slow hard drive and is now Apple's main laptop line with powerful CPUs.

The cases of iCloud and Siri are in my opinion similar: iCloud is a very important and integral part to Apple's future, and it is not as robust as a service as google's, but Apple is getting there.

[andi*pandi]

I have a first gen iPod. It still works.

Was MobileMe a failure, or did we just prefer .Mac?

[subego]

@Oreo

Again, the question I've been addressing isn't whether they were at fault for making the product. The question is whether imperfection was tolerated.

This is why I give examples of laptops which fry themselves and phones which get a lousy cellular signal.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by freudling 

You're holding it wrong (this was idiotic I agree but he had to bullshit through it)

No. He let a product get through that was far from perfect, and THEN had to bullshit through it. Can you honestly believe that through the extremely thorough testing Apple does on their phones that nobody held it the "wrong" way and noticed a signal drop?

Either Jobs knew about it and decided it wasn't worth the apparently minor fix necessary, or someone didn't tell him (which is still his fault).

[P]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

Was MobileMe a failure, or did we just prefer .Mac?

MobileMe had severe reliability problems at launch. It was probably no worse than .mac, but the point about the relaunch was to get away from the rather mixed reputation that .mac had - something that obviously failed.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

I have a first gen iPod. It still works.

I also used my first iPod until the headphone jack broke. Since there were no software updates (to the iPod) in today's sense, I also never felt the need to upgrade it, it was a damn good but damn expensive device.

Originally Posted by subego 

Again, the question I've been addressing isn't whether they were at fault for making the product. The question is whether imperfection was tolerated.

I'm not sure whether you got Apple's goals during or after Steve's reign right: to me, Apple is not striving for perfection, they are trying to make compromises so the product does a few things exceptionally well, accepting that it's not as good at other things. And if you manufacture and sell a niche products, more compromises are acceptable than in a mass market product.

That's why the first two generations of iPods were so great: they were aimed at a very small niche (affluent Apple user, I think I paid 700 € for mine!) and wasn't bound by a lot of constraints.

[glideslope]

Subjective arguments. Meaningless. People simply have not adjusted to the Tim Cook CEO Model.

Steve was the "Big Idea" Guy. The TEAM created the product. Not everything about Steve was Roses' and Gumdrops.

Relax, enjoy your ecosystem, and STOP with the "if Steve were here" BS. He is gone, APPL is lucky to have Tim, and that Tim loves APPL.

September is going to be "Magical".

[subego]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I'm not sure whether you got Apple's goals during or after Steve's reign right: to me, Apple is not striving for perfection, they are trying to make compromises so the product does a few things exceptionally well, accepting that it's not as good at other things. And if you manufacture and sell a niche products, more compromises are acceptable than in a mass market product.

That's why the first two generations of iPods were so great: they were aimed at a very small niche (affluent Apple user, I think I paid 700 € for mine!) and wasn't bound by a lot of constraints.

Tell this to freudling. He's the one saying it's un-Apple like his Retina MPB is parboiling his balls. Most would focus on the thing it does better than any other laptop out there.

[subego]

Cause, Steve would never tolerate a laptop which got too hot.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by subego 

Tell this to freudling. He's the one saying it's un-Apple like his Retina MPB is parboiling his balls.

On the front vents, no less.

The vents which don't actually put out any hot air.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

Tell this to freudling. He's the one saying it's un-Apple like his Retina MPB is parboiling his balls. Most would focus on the thing it does better than any other laptop out there.

You get no argument here: the introduction of Apple's 15" Retina MacBook Pro is text book. New technologies are introduced top-down, and it is Apple is pushing the limits of currently available hardware.

[P]

The only odd thing is that they kept the old MBPs. Wouldn't have surprised me if they had killed them all.

It seems likely that the MBAs are waiting for Haswell, but it will be interesting to see if the Retina 13" MBP is coming soon, coming next year or not coming at all.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by freudling 

The funny thing is Spheric continues to post over and over again. It shows how blue in the face he gets over something he truly believes is reality.

I R O N Y ?

[Athens]

Quoted for truth

"Also, calling the retina MacBook Pro "the ugliest laptop Apple's put out in a while" is…interesting. You are apparently completely alone in that assessment. As in, completely. Literally no one agrees with you. "

[Athens]

I do have a big grip with the UI of the Apple TV. I really liked the old one more. I don't find the new one adding functionality and just makes it look ugly as hell. But it does open the door to apps on the AppleTV which the old layout would have had problems with.

You do notice some issues of things slipping through that might not have happened if Steve was around. The people at Apple designed the hardware and the software. Steve would just nitpick things and make them change it until he liked it. For that reason alone Apple has lost a big influence on details. But I don't believe anything we see where Steve's designs. They have always been the designs of other people. He just was a perfectionist that demanded a lot out of those people and had them tweak things until he was happy.

Something I don't think would have made it past Steve in Lion was the background in the login screen or on the second display when in full app mode. I think that would have been something he would have tweaked.

But I think to much importance is being put in Steve's hands when it comes to the fine work Apple puts out. Its always been the collective efforts of many. And people along with products evolve and if anything we are just seeing the same people evolving along with what they put out.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Steve is almost 100% the reason Apple even exists today including its hit products. His sense of style and taste. His unwillingness to accept anything but perfection. His ability to push people beyond logic. His focus on design. How he'd walk into the design lab every week and feel the prototypes, ignoring what people were doing with computers.

Yes and no. You are right Steve is 100% responsible for Apple being here. And 100% responsible for saving Apple in 1996. But not for the reasons you put up. Steve on his return to Apple brought in really good people. Tim Cook is a example in 1998 of that. In 1997 Jonathan Ive's was put in charge of all design at Apple. Sina Tamaddon joined in 1997 a key player from NeXT, Scott Forstall also came over from NeXT. Bertrand Serlet came into the picture in 1997 another key person from NeXT. If anything the loss of Bertrand Serlet has lead to the issues with UI in Lion because he left Apple in 2011. Philip W. Schiller has been a key member of the excutive team since 1997.

So Steve is responsible for saving Apple, but because he had a excellent team that he put together. Some through NeXT, some already at Apple and some brought in. It was the collective effort and talent of all these people combined that made Apple what it is today. And its this reason Apple will continue strong for years to come. Its when these people start slowly leaving the company we will see problems. We already see it perhaps in the UI of OS X with the loss of Bertrand.

I own the Retina MBP. It's currently sitting on my lap and it's hot as hell. I love the thing but it's also flawed in terms of heat. And the vents below make me crazzzzzzzy.

Trade you my 2008 Macbook Pro for it lol, call it compensation for getting you a investor

[freudling]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

I R O N Y ?

I started this thread...

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by freudling 

I started this thread...

...because your face was so blue?

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

...because your face was so blue?

No because yours is baby blue.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by freudling 

I started this thread...

…that started the whole world crying

[MacinTommy]

Anyone remember this little gem?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by MacinTommy 

Anyone remember this little gem?

What about it?

It was actually one of the better ones out there.

[MacinTommy]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

What about it?

It was actually one of the better ones out there.

It looked and sounded nice. The placement of where you put the iPod and how it just sat up there with no support -design fail- (see the Bose iPod dock for better device placement) plus the fact it was way over priced makes it an overall Apple fail under the reign of The Almighty One. How long was it on the market again? I think I remember hearing all the groans on the day it was launched.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by MacinTommy 

It looked and sounded nice. The placement of where you put the iPod and how it just sat up there with no support -design fail- (see the Bose iPod dock for better device placement) plus the fact it was way over priced makes it an overall Apple fail under the reign of The Almighty One. How long was it on the market again? I think I remember hearing all the groans on the day it was launched.

Wow you've just proven that Steve was a total failure. It's pathetic how much you troll.

[badidea]

to this thread
Not as entertaining as "Android vs iOS", "iPhone vs Samsung Galaxy" or "Apple vs the rest of the computer world" battles on Amazon but almost even more disturbing...

[Atheist]

Couldn't one argue that Jobs was involved at some level with everything that is currently available from Apple? He hasn't even been dead a year. I would suggest it's a little premature to call this the "Post-Jobs Era".

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

Couldn't one argue that Jobs was involved at some level with everything that is currently available from Apple? He hasn't even been dead a year. I would suggest it's a little premature to call this the "Post-Jobs Era".

Exactly. Unless freudling is suggesting that Jobs checked out at least a year before he died.

[MacinTommy]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Wow you've just proven that Steve was a total failure. It's pathetic how much you troll.

Yes, I troll SO much with my .52 a day post rate in 6 years of being on this forum. (Please PM me or start a thread about me -permission granted- about all my troll sightings)

I was honestly making a point about one product -that happened to be launched (part of a full-blown keynote) when Steve Jobs was in control- and it just so happened to be a BIG FAT FAILURE.

Also, Atheist has a point. Didn't they say Steve left a "master plan" that will go for years after his passing? I mean we are NOT in the "Post-Jobs Era" yet. Not even close.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

…that started the whole world crying

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Wow you've just proven that Steve was a total failure. It's pathetic how much you troll.

He's just proven that you don't have a point about this "crisis" being Steve-related (or rather, absence-of-Steve-related)

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Wow you've just proven that Steve was a total failure. It's pathetic how much you troll.

Nobody is saying Jobs was a failure. That is simply not possible. But, you are certainly trying to said that Apple made no mistakes under Job's watch ("Steve accepted nothing less than perfection"). There are *many* examples of failures from Apple under Jobs.

[Gametes]

New iOS 6 Phone dialpad looks just hideous and awful. If a designer offered this to me, chances are good I would cancel the contract then and there - it's a waste of time and a non-starter. How this got all the way to release amazes me. There is indeed a crisis at Apple, and it has to do with the review process that allowed this 5-minute design to become the final product.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Gametes 

New iOS 6 Phone dialpad looks just hideous and awful. If a designer offered this to me, chances are good I would cancel the contract then and there - it's a waste of time and a non-starter. How this got all the way to release amazes me. There is indeed a crisis at Apple, and it has to do with the review process that allowed this 5-minute design to become the final product.

What is your critique of it?

[subego]

At worst I'd say it's "meh" design. The larger keys are definitely better from a functionality standpoint.