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mackandproud · Jun 6, 2009, 01:10 PM

I have a lovely black macbook, which is serving my needs well. In order to keep my files safe, I purchased a 500 gb external hard drive as a backup device. With all that extra space, I soon loaded it up with mp3 and other audio files, as well as audiobooks. That drive now has only 53 gb of free space.

Therefore, I am thinking of getting a second backup drive. I know of one on sale at a very attractive price for a 750 gigger. However, I'm thinking at this rate, 1 TB or even 1.5 TB would be better, although those are slightly out of my budget. Should I pay the extra amount and go for the 1 or 1.5 TB drive?

It took me about 15 months to fill up the 500 gb drive.

Koralatov · Jun 6, 2009, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by mackandproud

I have a lovely black macbook, which is serving my needs well. In order to keep my files safe, I purchased a 500 gb external hard drive as a backup device. With all that extra space, I soon loaded it up with mp3 and other audio files, as well as audiobooks. That drive now has only 53 gb of free space.

Therefore, I am thinking of getting a second backup drive. I know of one on sale at a very attractive price for a 750 gigger. However, I'm thinking at this rate, 1 TB or even 1.5 TB would be better, although those are slightly out of my budget. Should I pay the extra amount and go for the 1 or 1.5 TB drive?

It took me about 15 months to fill up the 500 gb drive.

Without a doubt, if you can spare the extra cash, go for the 1TB+ drive. When it comes to hard disk space, you can never have enough.

shifuimam · Jun 6, 2009, 02:44 PM

I'd recommend getting two more drives and setting yourself up a RAID 5 array in a separate desktop - i don't remember if OS X supports RAID 5 in software, but I'm pretty sure it does. Windows Server 2k/2k3/2k8 definitely does.

At any rate, it's more reliable than a single drive. If one drive craps, you can shut down the array and avoid losing your data, thereby giving you time to replace the dead drive.

Eriamjh · Jun 6, 2009, 10:07 PM

I set a target to buy a 1.5TB internal or USB drive as soon as they hit the $100 mark (including shipping).

It's come close, and 1TB drives have hit as little as $70 (internal).

One thing is certain, prices continue to drop and the top drives continue to get bigger. Buy what you need when you need it to avoid spending unnecessary cash.

Simon · Jun 7, 2009, 03:13 AM

What is your budget?

Newegg has 750 GB for $70 shipped (here and here).

They also have 1TB starting at $75 (here and here).

I don't think that $5 savings are comparable to the extra 250 GB.

1.5TB disks are another story. This Barracuda 7200.11 is a great disk, but it's $120 shipped. Not a bad price, but considerably more than the 1TB disks.

ghporter · Jun 7, 2009, 12:57 PM

Great discussion, but not specific to notebooks. I've moved it to an appropriate location.

Simon, those two drives look very nice. Beside what Newegg provides, do you have any data on the internals, transfer speeds, etc.?

Simon · Jun 7, 2009, 04:11 PM

Newegg has the most important specs. And you can google the product names for specific benchmarks. Barefeats has a good overview here.

In terms of raw performance Seagate Barracuda and WD Black are usually best. If you're interested in a backup disk where maybe low noise and low power are more important I'd definitely take a look at the WD Green line. They're excellent drives for that purpose.

mackandproud · Jun 8, 2009, 02:59 AM

I bought a seagate 750 gigger. I paid approximately a hundred dollars total for it. I thought it was a pretty good deal, but I'm wondering if this is a good value over the long run, as it didn't take me much longer than a year to fill up nearly 500 gigs. Shouid I return and get a bigger drive? I'm thinking I should.

I really do not want to spend more than $150 or so, for a 1 TB or 1.5 TB external. Hopefully with firewire, 7200 rpm and reliable, above all else.

mackandproud · Jun 8, 2009, 03:17 AM

PS: If I get a USB2 instead of firewire, will my wmv and mp4 videos play back without any glitches, or will there be noticeable slowdowns as a result of the somewhat slower transfer rate? I'm hoping to store some dvd clips and snippets, but if the usb connection will slow things down as far as playback, I will pass.

Simon · Jun 8, 2009, 05:31 AM

For the stuff you mention USB will be fine. With FW on the MB on its way out, USB is likely a safer bet anyway.

Even if you need an extra external enclosure, $100 for 750 GB is a bad deal and I think you should return the 750GB disk. You can get 1.5TB for $120 or 1TB for $75. USB cases start at $15. So for $100 you should definitely be getting more than 750 GB.

mackandproud · Jun 8, 2009, 01:06 PM

Yeah, I found a 1 TB USB2 external drive with enclosure for $100. It sounds like the transfer speed will be fine as a backup drive. But those low prices you mention are very tempting indeed.

turtle777 · Jun 8, 2009, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by Simon

For the stuff you mention USB will be fine. With FW on the MB on its way out, USB is likely a safer bet anyway.

O'Rly ?

Even the new MBP 13" has now FW 800. And for $ 1,199, it's priced like previous MBs.

-t

Simon · Jun 8, 2009, 01:25 PM

Obviously I assumed wrong.

That said, FW800 cases carry a huge premium over USB2 cases. If it's not performance-critical (i.e. backup) USB is IMHO the way to go.

ghporter · Jun 8, 2009, 04:47 PM

I haven't even seen FW800 cases in my shopping (online at least I can find FW400 cases). And I'll tweak what Simon says about USB here-Firewire excels at data streaming while USB is better at file-level transfers; they were developed for those capabilities, and drivers really play to those strengths. And backups, as with TimeMachine, are streamed. With that said, ANY backup is better than none, though the transfer time for a USB 2.0-connected backup will be "less than speedy."

The tradeoff between higher cost for hardware (when and if you can find it) and much faster backups has to be a personal cost/benefit analysis thing, but assuming you can afford FW800 devices, that is THE way to go.

mackandproud · Jun 9, 2009, 02:34 AM

I have a blackbook with firewire 400 obviously. And I intend to keep it for another couple of years at least. So a firewire 400 enclosure would be ideal.

Right now, I have a huge collection of mp3/aiff as well as audiobook files. I'd also like to store some videos on the backup drive as well, and would want a firewire connection rather than usb so there are no hiccups in playback.

I'm getting some advice on buying the bare drive and buying an enclosure for it. With my past drive, I just bought it as a prepackaged drive but I guess I could look into buying the enclosure separately. I guess it's worth the hassle if I can save significant dinero.

So, off to shop for either a 1TB or 1.5TB with firewire 400, 7200 rpm and ridiculously reliable.

mackandproud · Jun 9, 2009, 03:09 AM

Thanks for info. I've had less than completely satisfying experiences with Hitachi drives, as they tend to give out at about the three year mark. I may consider one again though.

What are the high quality enclosures? Newegg is selling them for about 35 or $40.

Originally Posted by Simon

Newegg has the most important specs. And you can google the product names for specific benchmarks. Barefeats has a good overview here.

In terms of raw performance Seagate Barracuda and WD Black are usually best. If you're interested in a backup disk where maybe low noise and low power are more important I'd definitely take a look at the WD Green line. They're excellent drives for that purpose.

Simon · Jun 9, 2009, 03:33 AM

OK, so you prefer FW400. That's not a problem, it just makes the case more expensive.

You can get a case for $36. The 1.5 TB Barracuda costs $120. Wasn't $150 just about what you wanted to spend?

Of course there's also the 1TB drives I linked to above for $75 if you want to bring the total down to ~$110.

ghporter · Jun 9, 2009, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by mackandproud

I'm getting some advice on buying the bare drive and buying an enclosure for it. With my past drive, I just bought it as a prepackaged drive but I guess I could look into buying the enclosure separately. I guess it's worth the hassle if I can save significant dinero.

So, off to shop for either a 1TB or 1.5TB with firewire 400, 7200 rpm and ridiculously reliable.

The "hassle" of buying separate enclosures and drives is almost entirely the research and shopping. Physically putting the two together is quite easy and almost no challenge whatsoever. Can you tie your shoes? Can you sharpen an pencil in a manual sharpener? If so, you can probably put together a bare drive and enclosure in just a few minutes. it really is that easy.

mackandproud · Jun 9, 2009, 03:01 PM

Man, I've been reading the reviews for various drives, and quite frankly, based on the reviews and my own experience, the life span of a hard drive is about three years if used regularly. Anything on top of that is pure gravy. Then again, our storage needs seem to multiply and you wind up having to get a new drive by that time anyway.

So I will decide between hitachi, western digital, seagate and samsung drives. My experience with hitachi is that they are very quiet and fast but have a limited life span. And now I have two possible enclosure choices. OK, I'll make a decision shortly.

mackandproud · Jun 9, 2009, 03:17 PM

For anyone else interested, this drive enclosure seems to be a good value and getting good reviews:

Customer Reviews Of BYTECC ME-835U2F (BLACK) Aluminum 3.5" Black USB & 1394 External Enclosure - Retail

Simon · Jun 9, 2009, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by mackandproud

For anyone else interested, this drive enclosure seems to be a good value and getting good reviews:

Customer Reviews Of BYTECC ME-835U2F (BLACK) Aluminum 3.5" Black USB & 1394 External Enclosure - Retail

The internal interface is IDE. You need SATA.

The link I gave above is for the proper type of enclosure.

chichow · Jun 10, 2009, 01:50 PM

Simon has posted $75 1TB drives

Newegg.com - Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 ST31000333AS 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive - Internal Hard Drives

If you want the space for stuff...hot deal on (2) 1.5TB drives from Dell. two for $200.

Dell : Seagate 1.5TB SATA Barracuda 7200.11 Internal Hard Drive - 2-Pack : System Drives : Home & Home Office

chichow · Jun 10, 2009, 01:53 PM

Forgot to mention coupon code

2. Coupon Price : -$70.00 | Code : MZ7$L7$7DCG5BC
Final Price : $199.99 Shipped

mackandproud · Jun 10, 2009, 01:58 PM

Thanks for those links. Some of those reviews for the 1.5 TB concern me, I must say. I think I am leaning towards the hitachi 1 TB at this point. They are supposed to be very quiet and very fast, and quite frankly, this has been my experience with them as well. However, I have also had my hitachi/ibm drives have issues at around the 3 year mark, which is acceptable, but just barely. They're like high maintenance German sports cars, I suppose.

mackandproud · Jun 11, 2009, 05:19 PM

I'm leaning towards the WD Caviar 1 TB. Over 1 thousand reviews, almost all positive:

Newegg.com - Western Digital Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drives - Internal Hard Drives

Hitachi drives are less expensive, with good reviews overall:

Newegg.com - HITACHI 0A38016 1TB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive - Internal Hard Drives

This is the drive I really want, but lots of warnings about disk failures:

Newegg.com - Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 ST31500341AS 1.5TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive (bare drive) - Internal Hard Drives

Those are my three finalists...

Any swaying votes?

mackandproud · Jun 11, 2009, 05:34 PM

The Hitachi reviews look a little iffy as well. That leaves the WD Caviar. Now, to buy cables and enclosure...

mackandproud · Jun 11, 2009, 05:43 PM

The disk, cable, and enclosure plus tax and shipping, come out to a little over $150. Not bad, but not great either. Do I need this cable?:

Newegg.com - Rosewill 18" Serial ATA II cable with metal latch, Model RC-18"-SA2-90-BK, Black - Cables

The shipping for that little gizmo alone is $6!

mackandproud · Jun 12, 2009, 03:58 AM

Newegg.com - Western Digital My Book Home WDH1CS10000N 1TB USB 2.0 / IEEE 1394a / eSATA External Hard Drive - External Hard Drives

The western digital mybook, which I would assume uses a western digital internal drive, is getting lousy reviews, unlike the western digital OEM drive. Very confusing.

ghporter · Jun 12, 2009, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by mackandproud

Newegg.com - Western Digital My Book Home WDH1CS10000N 1TB USB 2.0 / IEEE 1394a / eSATA External Hard Drive - External Hard Drives

The western digital mybook, which I would assume uses a western digital internal drive, is getting lousy reviews, unlike the western digital OEM drive. Very confusing.

The difference is the interface hardware in the enclosure. A great drive can work like crap if it's paired with crappy interface hardware...

mackandproud · Jun 12, 2009, 06:56 PM

It looks like I have a winner:

1. either the Western Digital Caviar Black or Hitachi 1 TB internal drive
2. Acomdata 1394/USB 2 enclosure
3. an SATA cable for a couple bucks

Questions:
1. it looks like the SATA cable is absolutely necessary and doesn't come with the drive or enclosure. True?

2. I believe the WD is the most reliable of all drives, but the Hitachi may be a tad faster.

The cost is $130 to $150; the HItachi costs less, WD more.

I'm getting ready to order up.

Simon · Jun 13, 2009, 06:05 AM

I always got the SATA connection with the case. But then again, I never bought the very cheapest.

I'd definitely get a WD Black or a Seagate Barracuda over a Hitachi. We ordered a whole bunch of Hitachi 1 GB disks when they were pretty new for our new MPs back in the day. 6 of 16 were DOA, three more died within the first weeks. I never bought or recommended a Hitachi drive since. Especially not when Seagate and WD offer the same capacity for less.

ghporter · Jun 13, 2009, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

IWe ordered a whole bunch of Hitachi 1 GB disks when they were pretty new for our new MPs back in the day. 6 of 16 were DOA, three more died within the first weeks. I never bought or recommended a Hitachi drive since. Especially not when Seagate and WD offer the same capacity for less.

Amazing. The only thing I can think to say is "did Hitachi make good on those dead drives? That's just horrible, and I can't imagine how that many bad drives got out the door, even (maybe especially) when the models were brand new.

But going with Seagate for less money for the same capacity is a Very Smart Thing.

Simon · Jun 13, 2009, 12:57 PM

All they offered were replacements. But would you have wanted those?

I guess it was just a bad batch. The real question IMHO is how little QA/QC must you have to let that kind of a whopper slip.

mackandproud · Jun 13, 2009, 01:59 PM

I've been reading through various reviews, and the Seaagate 7200.11 is supposed to have around a 30% failure rate. I do believe the stories about Hitachi, although I wonder quality control has gone up since, as the reviews I've read seem to be good if not great. Only the WD is getting very good reviews. It may be worth spending an extra $20 to get higher reliability.

Then there's the issue of how etailers ship: not very well, so many customers recommend spending an extra $20 on fedex....

Simon · Jun 13, 2009, 02:02 PM

Seagate Barracuda got a lot of bad press because of the firmware snafu. And rightly so.

I would read current reviews. And then also rather rely on testing sites than individual customer feedback.

ghporter · Jun 13, 2009, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Simon

All they offered were replacements. But would you have wanted those?

I guess it was just a bad batch. The real question IMHO is how little QA/QC must you have to let that kind of a whopper slip.

Or more likely "how new a process" they had. If a bunch actually missed an inspection, that could do the trick right there... And it would have been in their interest to make double sure that replacement drives worked from the start and for a while-something I'd have pointed out to the Hitachi rep if I had been the one reporting that many failures.

chichow · Jun 30, 2009, 10:54 AM

I recall discussions about NAS vs attached storage.

OWC just came out with a nice RAID 5 capable 4 disk direct attached enclosure. Takes up to (4) 2 TB drives.

http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/revie..._home_desktop/

something consumer level and maybe to Simon's standards? ~70MBs sustained sequential reads

mackandproud · 01:22 AM

I purchased the acomdata external enclosure and western digital caviar black 1 TB drive. I don't like the combination. It is running now, and there is a rather pronounced mechanical hum playing through my speakers whenever the drive is active.

I don't know if the source of the problem is the enclosure or the drive, or the combination of the two. It took me a while to assemble this whole jive as it was my first time doing something like this. Now, time to disassemble, hassle through customer service, and return everything. I shoulda just trusted my gut and bought an all in one at a far lower price.

Thanks for the advice. Hopefully I'm giving useful feedback for others to use. Seriously, my seagate all in one has been working fine and not causing me any problems. I should of been a repeat customer.

edit: all right, I don't want to hit the panic button. Perhaps this issue is easily resolvable. Anyone encounter this same issue and gotten it taken care of?

I will call customer service for both companies to see if I can't get it fixed.

Simon · Jul 9, 2009, 02:27 AM

Hold your horses! It's not necessarily faulty hardware at all. The hum could be a simple ground loop. Chances are customer support won't help you with your house's electrical wiring.

Try this. Connect the ground of the drive enclosure power supply to the ground of your stereo system or amplifier. Does that stop the hum?

Is there a coaxial antenna connected to your stereo system? Try removing it. Does that stop the hum? The ground potential of the shield of these antennas is often different from your local ground (I've seen up to 30V potential difference) causing substantial trickle current on the shield which gives that nice hum on your speakers.

mackandproud · Jul 9, 2009, 03:13 AM

How do I do this? I'm not sure what you're talking about, quite frankly. Everything is plugged into a multi outlet surge protector and there they will stay.

And there is no antenna connected to my setup in anyway.

Originally Posted by Simon

Try this. Connect the ground of the drive enclosure power supply to the ground of your stereo system or amplifier. Does that stop the hum?

Is there a coaxial antenna connected to your stereo system? Try removing it. Does that stop the hum? The ground potential of the shield of these antennas is often different from your local ground (I've seen up to 30V potential difference) causing substantial trickle current on the shield which gives that nice hum on your speakers.

Simon · Jul 9, 2009, 06:12 AM

It could be your multi output surge protector isn't properly grounded. Or your house's ground wiring is bad. It's fairly common. See if you can try and connect the ground of the enclosure and the stereo system to a common ground. Remove as many devices as possible. It will take some searching by trial and error, but ground loops are a nasty albeit common problem and they can usually be solved quite easily.

mackandproud · Jul 9, 2009, 06:12 PM

That may be but I seriously doubt it's the cause of the hum. First of all, I have used at least three separate external hard drives using the same surge protector. Only one of the external hard drives causes the problem I describe. Therefore, the problem has to be with the hard drive or the enclosure, not the electrical system.

Also, the problem is only evident when the hard drive spins up, and disappears when the disk spins down, even when the unit is plugged in, so the drive and/or the enclosure is clearly at fault. Hence, they both must go.

ghporter · Jul 9, 2009, 08:14 PM

Maybe only one of the external hard drives is wired this way and susceptible to issues caused by a ground flaw. Try an outlet tester on the outlet you have the suppressor plugged into. That will tell you if your outlet is properly wired, which will either confirm or deny that it's building wiring. Then check the outlets in the surge suppressor-all of them. I should point out that basic surge suppressors depend on MOV devices that have a definite life span and can fail spontaneously after they exceed this life span-or earlier if they've been stressed with "less than maximum" surges. If you can demonstrate that there's no ground-loop fault, then the only thing it could be would be the drive.

Considering that it's pretty easy to generate a 60Hz hum with flawed wiring, and it's pretty difficult to imagine a mechanism through which an external enclosure or hard drive (or the combination of the two) could spontaneously hum without some other major symptom, Occam's razor says that your best bet is wiring, not the drive or enclosure.

ApertureValue · Jul 9, 2009, 09:09 PM

Strange.

mackandproud · Jul 10, 2009, 01:54 AM

I'ved tried several of the outlets in the surge protector, and the noise is present regardless of the outlet used.

Also, I don't think it's the wiring in my home. The hum is not present at all when the external drive is plugged in and turned on. The hum is only present when the drive is spinning/active. So it's the activity of the drive itself which must be causing the hum.

Every other drive is plugged into the same surge protector and there is no hum at any time.

Originally Posted by ghporter

Maybe only one of the external hard drives is wired this way and susceptible to issues caused by a ground flaw. Try an outlet tester on the outlet you have the suppressor plugged into. That will tell you if your outlet is properly wired, which will either confirm or deny that it's building wiring. Then check the outlets in the surge suppressor-all of them. I should point out that basic surge suppressors depend on MOV devices that have a definite life span and can fail spontaneously after they exceed this life span-or earlier if they've been stressed with "less than maximum" surges. If you can demonstrate that there's no ground-loop fault, then the only thing it could be would be the drive.

Considering that it's pretty easy to generate a 60Hz hum with flawed wiring, and it's pretty difficult to imagine a mechanism through which an external enclosure or hard drive (or the combination of the two) could spontaneously hum without some other major symptom, Occam's razor says that your best bet is wiring, not the drive or enclosure.

mackandproud · Jul 10, 2009, 02:16 AM

I double checked and yes, there is a problem with the ground in my electrical wiring. However, this has been obviously ongoing yet no other drive generates a hum when plugged in. This makes me want to return the drive and get another which is unlikely to cause the same problem.

Simon · Jul 10, 2009, 03:02 AM

1) It's not the drive. The case maybe.

2) Sounds very much like a ground loop indeed. Faulty wiring is very common - it's no surprise. Is your Mac by any chance plugged into the stereo via the analog audio out?

3) Try removing unknowns from the equation. Get a grounded power strip, plug the stereo system (all the components - amplifiers, speakers, etc.) into it. Plug the Mac and the disk enclosure into it too. But no other equipment. Remove as many peripherals from these devices as possible. Is the hum still there? If the Mac's audio out is connected to the stereo, unplug that. Is the hum still there? Does your equipment (stereo system, external drive enclosure) have metallic cases? If so, see if you can connect them directly to a common ground. Is the hum still there? If your ground wiring is faulty, you might build your own. See if you can connect this common ground to some piping (metal not plastic obviously) below a sink for example. Just for tinkering to find out exactly what's going on. You don't have to leave these things in place.

4) You could also try replacing the external cases power supply. Many have fairly common ratings. You might have another one around that you could try. Maybe it's just a really cheap ass power supply that's causing all the trouble?

ghporter · Jul 10, 2009, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by mackandproud

I double checked and yes, there is a problem with the ground in my electrical wiring. However, this has been obviously ongoing yet no other drive generates a hum when plugged in. This makes me want to return the drive and get another which is unlikely to cause the same problem.

Like I said, maybe this particular enclosure is wired differently. Most enclosures I've seen have a power supply block that connects to the enclosure with a 2-conductor plug of some kind. A few have three-conductor plugs, and it's not always obvious this is the case - coaxial connectors can have a BUNCH of contacts that you can't see.

If there's a ground fault in your house wiring, GET THAT FIXED FIRST. This is a safety issue, both with the risk of electrical shock and the risk of fire.

Once your house won't electrocute you or burn down around you, THEN start looking at this enclosure. Start by seeing if it makes the same sound when plugged into a CORRECTLY wired outlet. And remember that the drive pulls the most power when it's spinning up and active, so it could be that there's a very small hum there all the time but it's louder when the drive is demanding more power. It is quite common to see this sort of issue demonstrate itself only under load.

mackandproud · Jul 28, 2009, 07:41 PM

I finally hooked myself up with a nice drive and enclosure. Here's the enclosure, a beautiful macpro lookalike!:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00..._ya_oh_product

Plus a hitachi 1 gigger

There is no electrical buzz, and the case itself looks gorgeous. It is a bit noisy, as the enclosure sits right next to the computer on my desk, but overall, I'm very pleased.

Esthetics do make a big difference as the previous drive simply did not look right. I'm actually going to have to disassemble the drive later to get a couple more screws in (holes blocked by wiring) but overall, this is a success.

Cheers!