[art_director]

Heck, I didn't even touch on the War in Iraq which is in no way linked to the war on terror.

I didn't touch on leaking the identities of CIA agents working under cover -- I know, a Bush action, not Reps as a whole. But what have they, or for that matter Dems, done to punish all involved?

Again, a long list ...

[art_director]

Originally Posted by NZFL 

Oh, ok, The US and Israel are Fascists

Please allow me to correct this statement.

'The US and Israeli governments are fascist. Let's not confuse the actions of our corrupt gov as the will of the people.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Guantanamo has been by far a very secure and well cared for prison compared to the prisons Americans get put into in California and Texas. Those guys who have been killing or oppressing dozens if not hundreds and thousands of civilians in Afghanistan or Iraq are having it too ****ing easy. Put them in San Quentin and we'll see if they are the real men they thought they were when they were blowing up markets and shooting women on football fields.

Even secret prisons and some waterboarding of those bastards is poofy compared to a REAL American prison.



A prison in Pakistan or Egypt or other Muslim country which a terrorist would not come out alive from. People simply disappear in those. They should be ****ing grateful they have it to easy in our poofish Guantanamo Bay which was praised for its excellent healthcare by........Michael Moore.

We need to back up and look at WHO they are. Your post suggests that everyone at Guantanamo is a terrorist or Taliban. That simply isn't the case. In fact, it now appears the majority of prisoners held there are innocent and many have been freed.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Comparing a simple island prison like Guantanamo to a massive death camp like Auschwitz belittles the Holocaust and the crimes of the Nazis.

Nonsense. While the scale is different, the two have one really important factor in common - both are examples of an out of control government imprisoning people who it claimed had no recourse to law. Once a government starts to think it is above the law, one thing inevitably leads to the other.

[Chuckit]

Holy cow, peeb doesn't just flout Godwin's Law, he dances on top of it and shoots off fireworks to draw attention to his accomplishment.

OK, so you're predicting that the US is going to start systematically gassing an entire race. We can revisit this in a year and we'll see which one of us is…uh…slightly off base.

[peeb]

Nice misrepresentation of my post, Chuckit. I said that they were comparable - they exist on a scale of behaviors, and they have in common a view that there are groups of people who you don't have to accord rights to.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Nice misrepresentation of my post, Chuckit. I said that they were comparable - they exist on a scale of behaviors, and they have in common a view that there are groups of people who you don't have to accord rights to.

Yes, they're comparable, and when you compare them, you see that one is MUCH, MUCH WORSE. Good grief, if I have a choice between being held unfairly for a few years or having me and everyone I love brutally killed, I'm not going to sit there going, "Hmm, these are definitely comparable. I just don't know which to choose."

I think that some of what we're doing is pretty sketchy, but if you don't think it compares favorably to Nazi Germany, there's a serious lack of perspective here. It's entirely possible to disapprove of something without believing it's equivalent to the Third Reich.

[peeb]

Sure one is worse than the other. Fortunately, those are not the only choices. Again, I did not say it was equivalent. I said that once you start accepting the idea that some people don't deserve the same rights to legal process and can simply be locked up and tortured without a regular trial, that tends to get out of hand. Let's reinstate the rule of law before it's too late is all I'm saying.

[NZFL]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Comparing a simple island prison like Guantanamo to a massive death camp like Auschwitz belittles the Holocaust and the crimes of the Nazis.

So you are saying, torturing people in a Prison Camp where No human rights are observed is ok as long as its on US soil? Or Just because Auschwitz and 'Other Nazi camps' killed more people it makes them worse?????
Surely the detaining of Prisoners has a code? The Geneva Convention? It is obvious both Nazi Germany and Bush's Nazi State are observing the same foreign policies. And like in WW2 the locals (being Americans today and Nazi Germans in WW2) are oblivious to it and of course totally behind their party.
Just like in WW2 the German populous were not aware of the atrocities that were going on, but the Americans have the advantage this time. They know it going on but don't care?
How many innocent by standers have been un justly killed due to the Actions after 911? How many of the American Soldiers have lost their lives for this lie. How many native American Indians were brutally murdered for the Union? Fact of the matter is, the US Govt. is Dictating Laws that are so controversial and disrespectful to Civil Rights and liberties. In America there is no freedom of speech. The 1st Amendment is the right to free speech but that is no more. BORDC: Current Threats to Freedom of Speech, Religion, and Assembly
America needs reform, but not in a way that Politics can dictate. America has had it country stolen away from its people. Take it back and stop the insanity. Maybe apologizing to the world and begging for forgiveness may help. Personally I believe it is too late and you are all gonna burn in HELL!

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by NZFL 

So you are saying, torturing people in a Prison Camp where No human rights are observed is ok as long as its on US soil? Or Just because Auschwitz and 'Other Nazi camps' killed more people it makes them worse?????
Surely the detaining of Prisoners has a code? The Geneva Convention? It is obvious both Nazi Germany and Bush's Nazi State are observing the same foreign policies. And like in WW2 the locals (being Americans today and Nazi Germans in WW2) are oblivious to it and of course totally behind their party.
Just like in WW2 the German populous were not aware of the atrocities that were going on, but the Americans have the advantage this time. They know it going on but don't care?
How many innocent by standers have been un justly killed due to the Actions after 911? How many of the American Soldiers have lost their lives for this lie. How many native American Indians were brutally murdered for the Union? Fact of the matter is, the US Govt. is Dictating Laws that are so controversial and disrespectful to Civil Rights and liberties. In America there is no freedom of speech. The 1st Amendment is the right to free speech but that is no more. BORDC: Current Threats to Freedom of Speech, Religion, and Assembly
America needs reform, but not in a way that Politics can dictate. America has had it country stolen away from its people. Take it back and stop the insanity. Maybe apologizing to the world and begging for forgiveness may help. Personally I believe it is too late and you are all gonna burn in HELL!

Hell does not exist, didnt you get the memo?

[NZFL]

Originally Posted by TheWOAT 

Hell does not exist, didnt you get the memo?

Damn, I missed that totally. That makes me feel much better.

[TheWOAT]

Well, I guess the whole world should go to the Swiss and start begging for forgiveness.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by NZFL 

Personally I believe it is too late and you are all gonna burn in HELL!

I get that a lot.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by art_director 

I would start with the War on Terror. It's a joke. A very expensive joke that's not making us safer. While we squander millions on that pathetic initiative we have several million American children going without healthcare -- preventative maintenance that would be cheaper than fixing health woes after the fact.

The 'war on terror' has also stolen several of our liberties -- privacy among them. We've traded our rights for a pile of dung. One could argue that domestic spying began under Bill Clinton, which is true. But, when the Republicans had complete control of Congress and the White House, they took it to a new level.

Justice. Remember that concept? Well, it's dead. I would begin by referencing that joke of an election decided by a partisan faction of the Supreme Court that behaved like drunken school children. Even Sandra Day O'Connor has expressed regret for the court's actions.

The country is not in really bad shape. Washington's responsibilities are clearly written out in the Constitution. Browse through it and you'll surely see that Washington takes on a whole lot of additional responsibility, much of it for the worse.

The 2000 election is over. I find it telling that you blame a "paritsan faction" for the the outcome, yet you conveniently leave out any mention of the other party involved. The SC decision should have been unanimous had it not been for the partisan faction you overlook.

"preventative maintenance that would be cheaper than fixing health woes after the fact."... You can't possibly believe that seizing enormous amounts of money from hundreds of millions of hardworking Americans is cheaper for anything. Besides, the poorest children do get national insurance. And if any child or person has as much as a headache that concerns them, no hospital in the nation will refuse care.

Regarding your loss of privacy, the only people I've seen affected by the modernized setup are child predators, kiddie porn fanatics, and those involved with the planning and practice of violence.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by art_director 

Heck, I didn't even touch on the War in Iraq which is in no way linked to the war on terror.

Other than the fact that the world's islamo-facist radicals flocked there to do battle with us, or that senior Al-Qaeda thugs have been captured or killed there. Sure, nothing to do with the war on terror. Promoting democracy in the Middle East.... sure, nothing to do with the war on terror. Establishing a presence right in the middle of the world's terror hub... sure, nothing to do with the war on terror. Bin Laden issuing orders for Muslims to grab a sack and sprint to Iraq to fight US and Iraqi troops... sure, nothing to do with the war on terror.

Originally Posted by art_director 

I didn't touch on leaking the identities of CIA agents working under cover -- I know, a Bush action, not Reps as a whole. But what have they, or for that matter Dems, done to punish all involved?

No, Richard Armitage was not punished. The investigation was wrapped up. I'm sure you can read about it on the web somewhere.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by art_director 

I reject this line of reasoning -- we DO NOT need the two current parties to advance our goals. And no, my thinking does not align better with one party than the other.

Well, we need some parties, and the 2 big national parties here have such a long and established foundation that it is going to be damn near impossible to scrap them.

Once semi-solution would be to refocus powers onto the states. I'm a big proponent of having decisions that affect my life and my neighbors be made by those close to me. If outraged by certain issues, I have a much better shot of influencing my state's debate than that at the federal level.

With more power to the states, I think the emergence of additional political parties is much more possible. Trying to establish a new party nationally is pretty much hopeless unless one stumbles upon a billion dollars and 20 million supporters. However, at the state level, it's perfectly conceivable that a small group could emerge on the tails of a hot-button issue or two.

Yeah, I want the states to have more power. I think for healthcare, environmental, and educational issues, the states would represent their people much better than Washington DC does.

Thanks for following up with the list of complaints, BTW.

[NZFL]

If you fart consistently for 6 years and 9 months, enough energy is produced to create an atomic bomb. I heard that The Taliban were practicing to Fart themselves to death and take out as many infidels with their new weapon technology.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by art_director 

We need to back up and look at WHO they are. Your post suggests that everyone at Guantanamo is a terrorist or Taliban. That simply isn't the case. In fact, it now appears the majority of prisoners held there are innocent and many have been freed.

That's a LIE. A blatant big fat lie. Don't take us all for fools, especially when you go around saying the war on terror hasn't made anyone safer.

NEWSFLASH: Even the troop surge in Iraq has seen a massive reduction in terrorist attacks on civilians which has allowed Iraqis to move forward with their lives.

If you're saying that you're against public safety then for the time being I'm going to believe you are a closet Islamist who isn't being upfront with us. That's usually the case.

Seen it all before:

Some hardline young Muslim with an inbred hatred for Jews and other cultures comes online and pretends to be a cuddlesome human rights activist and brands progressive democracies like the US and Israel as "fascist" because of his own insecurity complex. He wishes his religion, his culture and his language was the only form of superiority in the world.

Seen it sooo many times, and I've seen how such forum trolling is organised as well. Disinformation is put out on the internet to make free people rebel against their governments and embrace totalitarianism instead.

Read my sig.

[PaperNotes]

More on how totalitarian propaganda works.

The Red Hackers —Chinese Youth Infused with Nationalism | CHINASCOPE

"When Deng Xiaoping was still alive, he told China to keep a low profile and not get into trouble with strong powers. Seeing the collapse of the Communist Bloc in East Europe and Russia, he left four strategic instructions for the Chinese Communists to survive. First one was, "Don't argue any more," meaning the Communist theory had lost completely so better not to talk about it. Second, "It's a dead end if (you) do not reform," admitting that the socialist practice had been a complete failure. Third, "Development is the absolute truth," meaning the past ideological struggles were anything but useful. His fourth strategy was the most famous and yet laughably ridiculous, "Cross the river by feeling for stones along the river-bed." Deng Xiaoping, by saying China had to feel its way, recognized the total failure of Communism, but he did not admit it nor did he want to accept Western democracy.

Jiang Zemin was picked to be the Party leader in 1989, but he did not get full control until the mid-90s when Deng Xiaoping became seriously ill. In order to gain support from the army generals, Jiang changed course on foreign policy and increased military spending. Deng's foreign policy was "bu-chu-tou," meaning "Do not take leadership positions in international affairs in order to avoid becoming a target." Deng's ambition was for China to become a truly developed country, and to do so it needed to avoid colliding with strong powers such as United States. During the first Gulf War in the early 90s when Deng was still advising the Party about foreign affairs, China did not show any strong opinions. However, after Deng became very ill and later died in 1996, Jiang Zemin took China on a more confrontational path.

In 1996 right before the Taiwan presidential election, the PLA launched long-range missiles just off the Taiwan seashore in an attempt to threaten Taiwan. During the Kosovo War in the spring of 1999, Jiang ordered the Chinese military to cooperate with the Yugoslavian dictator Slobodan Milosevic. Chinese agents in Belgrade helped Serbs in intelligence gathering and tested Chinese devices for electronic warfare. When that led to the NATO missile bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade in April 1999, Jiang seized the opportunity to incite anti-America sentiment in China. University students were bused to the American Embassy in Beijing to throw rocks and eggs into the Embassy. Although this way of revenge appeared unwise in international affairs, it was an effective political move for Jiang Zemin. The more people are angry with Americans, the less likely they will be to demand freedom and democracy."

[NZFL]

227:04:32:16 Till Bush Leaves office.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by spacefreak 

The country is not in really bad shape.

It has to be in order for the traveling salesman to create the need for his snake oil. Any cause, you name it. We're failing at it and need change.

Washington's responsibilities are clearly written out in the Constitution. Browse through it and you'll surely see that Washington takes on a whole lot of additional responsibility, much of it for the worse.

I often wonder how some of these folks get from;

- the government is entirely corrupt, they lied to us for oil and are killing thousands of American soldiers to get them all back for the President's daddy. Illegal contracts, waste, and fraud. Incompetence, deceit, vendetta, bungled, stupidity, etc...

To;

- Give 'em our healthcare and hope they're better stewards of our carbon footprint tax as well.
*does not compute.

The 2000 election is over. I find it telling that you blame a "paritsan faction" for the the outcome, yet you conveniently leave out any mention of the other party involved. The SC decision should have been unanimous had it not been for the partisan faction you overlook.

They're all about the popular vote until there's a question of it in their own party. They need superdelegates in case their voting block is too stupid. Overlooking the mess under your own bed is common-place. This "selective memory and scrutiny" continues to come up with regard to our Iraq action. It must somehow be more believable that the WMDs were "spirited" out of Iraq between 1998 and 2001, than between 2001 and 2003. They disregard all the statements and votes made by those of their ilk as to the threat of Saddam. They forget the lobbing of missiles, Desert Storm, Fox, and 12 years of failed economic sanctions, creating a host of waste and fraud on the backs of the Iraqi people while other factions were busy making enemies of the West through their oppression. While we've seen this type of methodology before, their memory won't grasp anything beyond 12 months old. Their distaste for US foreign policy contingent exclusively upon whether or not there's a (D) after the name of the person behind it.

Besides, the poorest children do get national insurance. And if any child or person has as much as a headache that concerns them, no hospital in the nation will refuse care.

I happen to know this to be true first hand, but there are a bunch of people living in gated communities that believe this is another quagmire in need of government snake oil. They won't listen to you. They can't answer why over 3 million children are eligible for Medicaid yet remain unenrolled. They can't tell you how many young college students are between their parent's coverage and their own, or between jobs, etc... they can't identify the most basic aspects of the issue, but they somehow know it requires a gigantic government bureaucracy apparently driven by oil, wrought with illegal contracts, waste, fraud, incompetence, deceit, vendettas, stupidity, and greed to solve it.

Regarding your loss of privacy, the only people I've seen affected by the modernized setup are child predators, kiddie porn fanatics, and those involved with the planning and practice of violence.

They might likewise be quick to cite US polling data to affirm their points against you. They'll tell you that the President enjoys a dismally low approval rating while failing to cite Congress' 18% approval rating. They'll cite the public's general opposition to the war while failing to acknowledge their support for wire-tapping, email and internet surveillance. It just goes on and on.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

I often wonder how some of these folks get from;

- the government is entirely corrupt, they lied to us for oil and are killing thousands of American soldiers to get them all back for the President's daddy. Illegal contracts, waste, and fraud. Incompetence, deceit, vendetta, bungled, stupidity, etc...

To;

- Give 'em our healthcare and hope they're better stewards of our carbon footprint tax as well.
*does not compute.

Exactly.

I wonder about the strangeness of this too. It's downright schiztophrenic.

You'd think the left and right could at least agree to a mutual mistrust of government, and therefore desire for a smaller government, but then you realize the distrust really isn't mutual at all.

The left only focuses and blame-shifts onto individual politicians and administrations they disagree with, but sees no connection what-so-ever to the very things they feign outrage at individuals about, and their desire to turn untold amounts of power over an even bigger government.

The idea of smaller, less obtrusive, fiscally responsible, strictly constitutionally-bound government is something the left poo-poos, not supports the idea of. Somehow they're convinced that "change" in the form of an even larger, even more powerful, even more out of control government will somehow always be run by people they'll agree with, who'll make decisions they support, and punish the people who have more than they do.

Like most things from the left side of the political spectrum, it simply lacks being thought through beyond a bumper sticker slogan level.

[peeb]

Papernotes, I think I've yet to see you make a statement that is actually true. I just note that because even most of the other trolls around here occasionally get something right.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by spacefreak 

Other than the fact that the world's islamo-facist radicals flocked there to do battle with us, or that senior Al-Qaeda thugs have been captured or killed there.

So you concede that they (terrorists) entered Iraq after our invasion in 2003. Good, we got that one checked off the list -- we created a terrorist problem in Iraq, we didn't go there to eliminate one.

Originally Posted by spacefreak 

Sure, nothing to do with the war on terror. Promoting democracy in the Middle East.... sure, nothing to do with the war on terror. Establishing a presence right in the middle of the world's terror hub... sure, nothing to do with the war on terror.

Iraq was the terror hub? All evidence points to Afghanistan and the tribal areas of Pakistan being the epicenter of the terror world. Or, until we drew them into Iraq after our invasion.

Tell us, freak, why haven't we invaded Pakistan? They have the bomb -- in fact, we paid for them to develop the bomb. Reagan lied to the American people telling us Pakistan didn't have a nuclear program despite the fact that he knew we did. Our money that was intended for the fight against the Soviets in Afghanistan was siphoned off and used to build their bomb program.

Pakistan has been selling nuclear material on the open market for years. They also have several stinger missiles we gave them to fight the Soviets. Some of those weapons -- US military weapons -- have fallen into the hands of terrorists. So they're supporting and, perhaps indirectly, arming the terrorists yet we haven't invaded Pakistan. Please explain why we don't invade Pakistan.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by spacefreak 

No, Richard Armitage was not punished. The investigation was wrapped up. I'm sure you can read about it on the web somewhere.

Not one person has been punished. Justice is dead in America.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by art_director 

Iraq was the terror hub? All evidence points to Afghanistan and the tribal areas of Pakistan being the epicenter of the terror world.

And do Iraq and these countries perhaps share a part of the world that he might be referring to?

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

And do Iraq and these countries perhaps share a part of the world that he might be referring to?

There exists no evidence that terrorists were active in Iraq prior to our 2003 invasion. Nor is there evidence of an active WMD program in Iraq. The Bush regime falsified evidence and lied to the American people to build support for the invasion. By contrast we knew prior to 2003 that Pakistan was selling nuclear weapons and technology to rogue states. We also knew bin Laden was hiding in or around tribal areas of Pakistan. Had the Bush regime adequately dealt with that problem instead of the Iraq side show the world would be safer today. Instead they wanted to settle a score Iraq. It was a mistake we'll be paying for in years to come.

[Macrobat]

BS, Art_Director.

From the just released Rockefeller report, you know from the Democratically-controlled Senate Intelligence Committee?

On contemporaneous intel:

On Iraq’s nuclear weapons program? The president’s statements “were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates.”

On biological weapons, production capability and those infamous mobile laboratories? The president’s statements “were substantiated by intelligence information.”

On chemical weapons, then? “Substantiated by intelligence information.”

On weapons of mass destruction overall (a separate section of the intelligence committee report)? “Generally substantiated by intelligence information.” Delivery vehicles such as ballistic missiles? “Generally substantiated by available intelligence.” Unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to deliver WMDs? “Generally substantiated by intelligence information.”

As you read through the report, you begin to think maybe you’ve mistakenly picked up the minority dissent. But, no, this is the Rockefeller indictment. So, you think, the smoking gun must appear in the section on Bush’s claims about Saddam Hussein’s alleged ties to terrorism.

But statements regarding Iraq’s support for terrorist groups other than al-Qaeda “were substantiated by intelligence information.” Statements that Iraq provided safe haven for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other terrorists with ties to al-Qaeda “were substantiated by the intelligence assessments,” and statements regarding Iraq’s contacts with al-Qaeda “were substantiated by intelligence information.” The report is left to complain about “implications” and statements that “left the impression” that those contacts led to substantive Iraqi cooperation.

After the war, captured Iraqi documents confirmed two explicit connections between AQ and Iraq. Saddam Hussein’s IIS provided funds to two AQ terrorist groups. The Army of Mohammed, based in Bahrain, told the IIS that they wanted to attack American assets throughout the region, and the IIS supplied them with funds while attempting to cover their tracks, knowing what exposure would mean after 9/11. The IIS also supplied funds for Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Ayman al-Zawahiri’s organization which provided AQ with most of its leadership.

The New York Sun reminds everyone that in January 2003, the State department also had intelligence of ties between AQ and Saddam Hussein, and it came from the same group that dissented on the status of the Iraqi nuclear-weapons program:

His words demolish a talking point for Democrats who still say Al Qaeda had nothing to do with Iraq until the coalition of the willing invaded. Mr. Ford wrote that the former emir of Al Qaeda in Iraq, Abu Musab Zarqawi “has had a good relationship with Iraqi intelligence officials.” He added that intelligence on Qaeda “revealed the presence of safe house facilities in the city as well as the clear intent to remain in Baghdad. Also, foreign NGO workers outside of Iraq who are believed to provide support to al-Qaeda have also expressed their intent to set up shop in Baghdad.”

No connection my left buttcheek.

[peeb]

This is nonsense. Let's see the evidence.

[Macrobat]

It's the Rockefeller Report, peeb. Sorry it doesn't agree with your screed.

Text thereof:

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/se...i_accuracy.pdf


Sorry that you got your bubble burst, no worries, you have several more floating.

[peeb]

Too much cool-aid, Macrobat? Since the Bush administration re-wrote the intel reports to say what they wanted, it's not entirely surprising. No one who was paying attention at the time can say with a straight face that they believed this ****.

If your position is that the intel was wrong, but everyone thought it was right, then where is the humble apology and illegal war reparations from the administration?