[beatbackbeaners]

The illegals at my work can take a day off on "riot day" and the human resources looks the other way because it's "politically correct". How come they get to bend the rules?

Why do illegals have more rights than I do? They get lesser cost medical care, more quickly processed social security benefits and food stamps, "hookups" to all kinds of under the wire services and connections.

When did being an actual citizen become so unfashionable? I don't have to travel to Mexico. Just going within 45 minutes of downtown Los Angeles I can see the poverty and urban devaluation of the "new Angelinos".

How come rich Mexicans aren't trying to get into the US so hard?

[Big Mac]

They already have a lot of land and money; they're isolated and comfortable. They have no reason to leave.

[beatbackbeaners]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

They already have a lot of land and money; they're isolated and comfortable. They have no reason to leave.

So why don't illegals use the same might and guts they use to pack their kids into tractor trucks to die to get conditions in Mexico to change?

[macintologist]

The problem is the immigration laws. I'd like to make all those illegals, legal, so that they pay the same taxes we all do. We should open up the borders and let any peaceful people come to this country and work.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by beatbackbeaners 

So why don't illegals use the same might and guts they use to pack their kids into tractor trucks to die to get conditions in Mexico to change?

Because that's TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARD. *sniffle*

And lets face it, hijacking the benefits of another nation's civil rights battles that others fought and died for is a LOT easier.

[pcguy1]

1. Well, you can always sneak across to Mexico/Canada and be a illegal yourself, steal their job and enjoy all the great benefit you mention.

2. If your company hired illegal and you are pissed about it, why not write to your local Homeland Security(INS division) and report it "daily" until they come by and file charge against the company you work for?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

The problem is the immigration laws. I'd like to make all those illegals, legal, so that they pay the same taxes we all do. We should open up the borders and let any peaceful people come to this country and work.

We should go to a flat sales tax, that way all are paying taxes proportionate to what they purchase. The borders are currently "closed" to those unwilling to knock first, but our health care is severely burdened and our jails are disproportionately full of these "peaceful people" who broke in. In our current situation, we're finding there's no way to separate "peaceful people" from unpeaceful people.

- immediately initiate a flat sales tax and eliminate the archaic and entirely-too-complex tax structure ensuring that all pay taxes immediately.

- We need to aggressively pursue and absolutely hammer the corporations exploiting this cheap labor base, perpetuating the problem. Use this money to locate and send some of the illegals back or put them on the path to citizenship; decision contingent upon skill sets. We are simply not resourced to enforce a blanket "ship 'em back" policy

- We need to seal the borders entirely for at least 10 years to absorb the influx of the last 10.

[peeb]

Interesting idea, but a sales tax is one of the most regressive around. The reality is that immigration, even undocumented, on average contributes more to the economy that it detracts. The whole war on immigration is almost as destructive and stupid as the war on drugs. Most western economies need large quantities of immigration right now, and the pressure to keep it illegal is just an attempt to keep wages low.

[pcguy1]

Actually the best way to keep American job in America is to pass a law that any product can only be sold in USA if it is make in America factory located in US of A with min 90% American make part, if a company want to profit from American citizen, they have to invest in America.

yup, no more Apple computer make in China, no more iPod make in Shanghai, no more Intel cpu fab in CostaRica, it would be a great day when your next iPhone is Make in US of A!

yeah!!

[peeb]

Actually, that is probably the best way to bankrupt the USA and send the global economy into a tailspin. It can be demonstrated mathematically that import restrictions are mathematically the same as export restrictions - you are essentially de-linking the US from global trade, putting many, many companies out of business.

[Chuckit]

We need to crack down on the companies doing all this stuff for illegals. If companies know they stand a good chance of getting the stuffing kicked out of them for hiring illegals, the illegals will not have such good prospects here.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by beatbackbeaners 

The illegals at my work can take a day off on "riot day" and the human resources looks the other way because it's "politically correct". How come they get to bend the rules?

If your workplace is knowingly employing illegal immigrants at all, not to mention giving them the day off, you should report them to the authorities.

And yeah, boohoo whine whine, it's so tough to be you and so easy to be an illegal immigrant.

[TheWOAT]

Beatbackbeaner???
Why hasnt this asshole been banned yet?

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

We need to crack down on the companies doing all this stuff for illegals. If companies know they stand a good chance of getting the stuffing kicked out of them for hiring illegals, the illegals will not have such good prospects here.

And then wages will rise, and unions become stronger, and what is the Republican interest in this?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by pcguy1 

Actually the best way to keep American job in America is to pass a law that any product can only be sold in USA if it is make in America factory located in US of A with min 90% American make part, if a company want to profit from American citizen, they have to invest in America.

yup, no more Apple computer make in China, no more iPod make in Shanghai, no more Intel cpu fab in CostaRica, it would be a great day when your next iPhone is Make in US of A!

yeah!!

And nobody will be able to buy it at $2100.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

We should go to a flat sales tax, that way all are paying taxes proportionate to what they purchase. The borders are currently "closed" to those unwilling to knock first, but our health care is severely burdened and our jails are disproportionately full of these "peaceful people" who broke in. In our current situation, we're finding there's no way to separate "peaceful people" from unpeaceful people.

- immediately initiate a flat sales tax and eliminate the archaic and entirely-too-complex tax structure ensuring that all pay taxes immediately.

SOCIALIST!

[analogika]

Originally Posted by TheWOAT 

Beatbackbeaner???
Why hasnt this asshole been banned yet?

He was.

Why do you think he had to sign up under a different nick?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by pcguy1 

Actually the best way to keep American job in America is to pass a law that any product can only be sold in USA if it is make in America factory located in US of A with min 90% American make part, if a company want to profit from American citizen, they have to invest in America.

yup, no more Apple computer make in China, no more iPod make in Shanghai, no more Intel cpu fab in CostaRica, it would be a great day when your next iPhone is Make in US of A!

yeah!!

The last country that did that was the Soviet Union, and I heard that turned out smashing.

[subego]

Originally Posted by analogika 

He was.

Why do you think he had to sign up under a different nick?

Heh.

Took me a second to get that one.

On topic: Wouldn't a flat sales tax screw poor people?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by pcguy1 

Actually the best way to keep American job in America is to pass a law that any product can only be sold in USA if it is make in America factory located in US of A with min 90% American make part, if a company want to profit from American citizen, they have to invest in America.

yup, no more Apple computer make in China, no more iPod make in Shanghai, no more Intel cpu fab in CostaRica, it would be a great day when your next iPhone is Make in US of A!

yeah!!

Is America even capable of making 90% of every product sold in the USA? Think of all the poor Americans who will now be forced to do the work that only illegal immigrants were willing to do!

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by beatbackbeaners 

The illegals at my work can take a day off on "riot day" and the human resources looks the other way because it's "politically correct". How come they get to bend the rules?

Why do illegals have more rights than I do? They get lesser cost medical care, more quickly processed social security benefits and food stamps, "hookups" to all kinds of under the wire services and connections.

When did being an actual citizen become so unfashionable? I don't have to travel to Mexico. Just going within 45 minutes of downtown Los Angeles I can see the poverty and urban devaluation of the "new Angelinos".

How come rich Mexicans aren't trying to get into the US so hard?

Rich Mexicans can come and go as they please, one of the many hypocrisies of our so-called border crisis. Many are U.S. citizens anyway.

Our countries are more intertwined than anyone who pretends we have a border crisis is willing to admit.

And I'm going to have to call you out on this. No workplace with a human resources department hires illegals. So I think you're kind of full of it across the board.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

The problem is the immigration laws. I'd like to make all those illegals, legal, so that they pay the same taxes we all do. We should open up the borders and let any peaceful people come to this country and work.

Amen, brother. Fresh blood is what's kept America vital so long.

Aren't the conservatives in favor of "competitive markets?" Practice what you preach.

[Mark Larr]

Yeah, we need more poisioned products from good old China.

As of now there is an investigation of banning all of China's farmed fish imports for large amounts of BANNED antibiotics.

You see, third world countries don't play by the rules set forth for us to abide by.

[analogika]

Dear Patriot™:

Look at the back or underside of the machine you just typed that on and LET THE WORLD KNOW where it was made.

Mmmkay?

-Eurotrash.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by peeb 

And then wages will rise, and unions become stronger, and what is the Republican interest in this?

Unions will become stronger because we enforce labor laws? I don't see the causality there.

[peeb]

The supply of cheap labor will be decreased. When the labor pool shrinks, and the number of people willing to undercut minimum wage decreases, unions become more powerful. One of the main ways to break union power is to bring in a surplus of cheap labor.

[Chuckit]

You don't have to undercut minimum wage to keep unions from taking over unless all the unions are asking for is minimum wage (in which case you have an unbelievably nice union and should be kind to them).

[peeb]

Well quite, but it helps.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by beatbackbeaners 

The illegals at my work can take a day off on "riot day" and the human resources looks the other way because it's "politically correct". How come they get to bend the rules?

Oh you RACIST. Even your NAME is a racist name! Holy mackeral. Repent.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Interesting idea, but a sales tax is one of the most regressive around.

By increasing the actual tax base, you're proportionately lowering the taxes per person. Why is this a bad thing?

The reality is that immigration, even undocumented,

I've got to stop you here because this is important. I have no problem with legal immigration. My problem is with illegal immigration. I think it's a mistake to include the two and talk about contribution to the US.

... on average contributes more to the economy that it detracts.

I disagree. Again, with regard to illegal immigration;
- 7,000 new cases of leprosy in the past three years came in from Mexico, India, and Brazil, 16,000 new cases of multiple-drug-resistant, incurable, and communicable. Per CDC; illegal immigrants comprise an immensely disproproportionate rate of communicable diseases (TB, hepatitis, leprosy, AIDS, etc.,) Legal immigrants are screened for these diseases whereas illegal immigrants are not and the illegals are putting a severe strain on our healthcare services.

- Per the Washington Times; dozens of hospitals in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California have either closed their doors or face bankruptcy because of losses caused by unpaid medical care given to illegal immigrants.

- US law requires illegals to receive K-12 education. The Federation for American Immigration Reform estimates that this costs taxpayers $7.4 billion dollars each year.

- in Los Angeles County for example, two-thirds of felony warrants are on illegals. One in seven of those incarcerated in California are illegals not imprisoned for illegal immigration, but other crimes. $500 million a year is spent on imprisoning these illegals in California alone. Again, not for being illegal, but committing other crimes.

When you say; "they contribute more to our economy..." I disagree and believe you're only taking the corporate sector into account. Sure, it's great for their economy, but for the rest of us? Just another unnecessary tax burden.

The whole war on immigration is almost as destructive and stupid as the war on drugs. Most western economies need large quantities of immigration right now, and the pressure to keep it illegal is just an attempt to keep wages low.

It's a vicious cycle then because the desire to hire them is to have low-wage workers. The only problem with calling them "illegal" is that we're not doing anything about it. I'd gladly pay less in taxes and more at the checkout to ensure this country is able to absord the staggering annual rate of illegal immigration. We're shipping high-skilled jobs out of our country while welcoming in low-skilled workers. This is bad.

[Dork.]

Of course you can become an illegal immigrant. Many countries will take you in as a citizen automatically if a parent or grandparent was born on their soil, or if you have a key skill they need. Simply leave the country, renounce your US Citizenship, then claim citizenship in one of these countries. Then sneak back across the border. Easy peasy!

[peeb]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

By increasing the actual tax base, you're proportionately lowering the taxes per person. Why is this a bad thing?

Because it's not true. By shifting to a flatter tax, the rich pay less, and the poor pay more.

I've got to stop you here because this is important. I have no problem with legal immigration. My problem is with illegal immigration. I think it's a mistake to include the two and talk about contribution to the US.
So then legalize them. Oh wait, then they don't work illegally, and don't drive wages down. So keep them out, oh wait, then they don't work illegally, and don't drive wages down. You have to understand that keeping a large pool of second class citizens is part of the republican / corporate agenda. It's not going to change any time soon, as cruel as it is.

I disagree. Again, with regard to illegal immigration;

- 7,000 new cases of leprosy in the past three years came in from Mexico, India, and Brazil, 16,000 new cases of multiple-drug-resistant, incurable, and communicable. Per CDC; illegal immigrants comprise an immensely disproproportionate rate of communicable diseases (TB, hepatitis, leprosy, AIDS, etc.,) Legal immigrants are screened for these diseases whereas illegal immigrants are not and the illegals are putting a severe strain on our healthcare services.

I agree that the US 'healthcare system' (if it can be called that) is broken. It's not the fault of undocumented immigration.

- Per the Washington Times; dozens of hospitals in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California have either closed their doors or face bankruptcy because of losses caused by unpaid medical care given to illegal immigrants.

I agree that the US 'healthcare system' (if it can be called that) is broken. It's not the fault of undocumented immigration.

- US law requires illegals to receive K-12 education. The Federation for American Immigration Reform estimates that this costs taxpayers $7.4 billion dollars each year.

You want to penalize minors for the decisions of parents? Most undocumented workers pay taxes anyway, but the whole of society pays one way or the other for uneducated children - school is cheap compared to other options. If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

- in Los Angeles County for example, two-thirds of felony warrants are on illegals. One in seven of those incarcerated in California are illegals not imprisoned for illegal immigration, but other crimes. $500 million a year is spent on imprisoning these illegals in California alone. Again, not for being illegal, but committing other crimes.
I agree that the US penal system (if you can call it that) is broken. That's not the fault of undocumented immigrants.
When you say; "they contribute more to our economy..." I disagree and believe you're only taking the corporate sector into account. Sure, it's great for their economy, but for the rest of us? Just another unnecessary tax burden.

It's a tiny amount when put in the perspective of other 'unnecessary tax burdens', and, I would say, a good investment.

It's a vicious cycle then because the desire to hire them is to have low-wage workers. The only problem with calling them "illegal" is that we're not doing anything about it. I'd gladly pay less in taxes and more at the checkout to ensure this country is able to absord the staggering annual rate of illegal immigration. We're shipping high-skilled jobs out of our country while welcoming in low-skilled workers. This is bad.

You're shipping out high skilled jobs for the same reason - corporate government that is fighting a new class war against the working class. Again, not the fault of the undocumented.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Because it's not true. By shifting to a flatter tax, the rich pay less, and the poor pay more.

This is more of a catch-phrase than anything else. Most of the "flatter tax" proposals I've seen protect income to over $33,000.00 for a specific-sized family. Currently, that same family's income is only protected to a little over $17,000.00. The sales tax proposal for example, includes a universal rebate that would send all taxpayers a check to offset their purchases up to the poverty level. The incentive to hide, shelter, or report lower income would not exist thereby reducing fraud rampant under the current tax structure. The idea here is to make everyone a little wealthier, not punish prosperity. After all, the "rich" comprise the lions-share of employers and philanthropy.

I agree that the US 'healthcare system' (if it can be called that) is broken. It's not the fault of undocumented immigration.

I didn't say anything about the current state of healthcare in the US or argue that illegal immigration is causal of its current state. You claimed they are a benefit to our economy. I cited examples of some items I think you miss when making that claim. Your reply doesn't address any of it.

I agree that the US 'healthcare system' (if it can be called that) is broken. It's not the fault of undocumented immigration.

I didn't say anything about the current state of healthcare in the US or argue that illegal immigration is causal of its current state. You claimed they are a benefit to our economy. I cited examples of some items I think you miss when making that claim. Your reply doesn't address any of it.

You want to penalize minors for the decisions of parents?

Isn't that what law does to any parent breaking it?

Most undocumented workers pay taxes anyway, but the whole of society pays one way or the other for uneducated children - school is cheap compared to other options. If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

... but ignorance is what we're currently facing. That's all part of the problem here. Undocumented immigrants don't learn anything behind the confines of a prison cell. They represent an overwhelmingly disproportionate number of inmates and burden upon social services to be used for the legal residents of this country. If you think the dichotomy between the rich and the poor is bad now, keep this up for another 10 years.

It's a tiny amount when put in the perspective of other 'unnecessary tax burdens', and, I would say, a good investment.

I disagree.

You're shipping out high skilled jobs for the same reason - corporate government that is fighting a new class war against the working class. Again, not the fault of the undocumented.

Luring uneducated and unskilled people into our country by offering slave wages and welcoming them into the fold of welfare and poverty is not humane nor productive to our economy. America does not have a vast labor shortage that requires the current degree of low-wage immigrants. in fact, unemployment among unskilled workers is high, about 30%. Many of the unskilled, uneducated workers here work in declining industries where native workers are forced out and in which cheap labor has led businesses to suspend investment in new technologies that would make them less labor-intensive. Lose-lose.

[peeb]

Look, you can argue all you like, and I'm clearly not going to convince you, neither is the field of economics. It's a shame, because everybody looses under your proposal. Fear needs a scapegoat, and it looks like you've found yours. I would suggest you spend some time getting to know some immigrants, documented and undocumented, and finding out a little about this issue.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Peeb, take your own advice- learn more about the issue.

You skirted around EVERY SINGLE point that ebuddy made, and what little you did attempt to address, was just to spout more bumper-stickers and meaningless platitudes.


Side topic, but I do disagree with the idea that any sort of sales tax scheme could replace income taxes. It's just such a terrible idea, I'm amazed people still come out with it. It would absolutely kill the poor, while barely affecting the rich.

Compliance with a sales tax scheme would be a nightmare to enforce- even the modestly wealthy and most business owners could easily just opt right out of it. While it's not really cost-effective to avoid all sales taxes currently- because sales taxes aren't prohibitively high- to increase them enough to try and replace income taxes would make it highly worthwhile to skirt.

If there were no tax on income- and therefore no accountability based on income, people can amass gargantuan tax-free fortunes while appearing on paper to consume (since that would be the primary tax collection point) zilch. It wouldn't even be all that hard to set up for even the modestly well-heeled, let alone the ultra-wealthy.

I've never been any "tax the rich" big government sycophant, but please- just letting the rich totally out of taxation while socking it entirely to the poor is just stupid, especially since the reality is most taxes actually are paid by the rich.

[tie]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

The idea here is to make everyone a little wealthier, not punish prosperity. After all, the "rich" comprise the lions-share of employers and philanthropy.

Hurray, for trickle-down economics. You guys never get tired of bad ideas, do you? (But, I seem to recall you'd never heard of externalities...) How about we bomb Iraq to solve the illegal immigration policy?

I think we should have tighter border control, for national security if for nothing else. I don't agree with building a wall, however. I also think we should have looser immigration control, and be more welcoming especially to the better educated.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Look, you can argue all you like, and I'm clearly not going to convince you, neither is the field of economics. It's a shame, because everybody looses under your proposal. Fear needs a scapegoat, and it looks like you've found yours. I would suggest you spend some time getting to know some immigrants, documented and undocumented, and finding out a little about this issue.

Well that certainly was easy wasn't it? You pop in, read off a couple of bumper stickers and bail? Economists are the ones advocating reform and have proposed several options including; consumption taxes, fair tax rates, and flat taxes. The specific proposal I was referring to was drafted by two economists. I know, I know. Again, more of those pesky little facts you hate so much.

The type of fear you're referring to is founded in ignorance. My sentiment is concern. Concern is founded in wisdom and vigilance. I've taken more than 5 minutes to familiarize myself with the situation. I advise maybe you spend a little less time with illegals and more time considering the implications of several million more each year.

[peeb]

Ho ho. Be afraid! Be afraid of people who are different from you!

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by tie 

Hurray, for trickle-down economics.

Ooh! You know a phrase. "trickle-down economics".

You guys never get tired of bad ideas, do you? (But, I seem to recall you'd never heard of externalities...)

I seem to recall that as a lawyer you like to;
A) Post under other aliases (kobi) as a young budding legal student.
B) Like to inject words like "all" when they don't exist yet when they do, you interpret it as clearly "not all".
C) Bring up words like "externalities" and when challenged on the definition and upon finding that your use of the term was entirely fallacious, you decided to take the sarcastic, winkee face, "I'm outta here" approach.

I'm dying to hear your take on why "trickle down economics" was a bad idea.

How about we bomb Iraq to solve the illegal immigration policy?

How about we raise minimum wage to solve the Iraq problem?

I think we should have tighter border control, for national security if for nothing else. I don't agree with building a wall, however. I also think we should have looser immigration control, and be more welcoming especially to the better educated.

Tighter border control/looser immigration control. Hmm. Interesting. Can you qualify the above with any substantive data at all? I mean, something other than buzzwords and BS or are we going the normal route again? You know, in the interest of efficiency here.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Ho ho. Be afraid! Be afraid of people who are different from you!

Wow. Just... wow.

[Graviton]

Illegal immigrants are the coolest immigrants.

Operating outside the law, talking rebellion in hushed tones in jazz clubs, smoking and plotting the downfall of global capitalism. By night they stalk demons and hunt vampires.

I like them. I'm off to buy a red beret and some cigars.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Side topic, but I do disagree with the idea that any sort of sales tax scheme could replace income taxes. It's just such a terrible idea, I'm amazed people still come out with it. It would absolutely kill the poor, while barely affecting the rich.

I understand your concern with sales tax increases. I should've qualified the statement. I'm not 100% sold on a flat sales tax. I should've said, "Consumption" tax because this encompasses several proposals for consideration. Two of which are a flat sales, or flat income tax. The current tax code is so complex that most "poor" people aren't able to avail themselves of the numerous loopholes, credits, deductions, and exemptions only the wealthy with a team of tax attorneys can enjoy. In fact, the cost of tax preparation, lawyers, accountants, and other resources used to comply with the current Internal Revenue Code is costing us over $100 billion. Even with this wealth of resources, mistakes are made by both tax experts in the private sector as well as the IRS due to the complexity of the current structure and in many cases guilt is assumed regardless of compliance.

Regarding the poor under a flat income tax; A wealthy taxpayer with 10 times the taxable income of another taxpayer would pay 10 times more in taxes. Most proposals I've seen protect income of the family to $30+k a year while the current tax structure only protects income for the same family to $17k a year. It is suggested that even a modest boost to the economy under a flatter tax to the tune of .5% would increase the income of the average family by $5,000.00 in ten years over the current tax structure. By simplifying the code, families who's income is below a specific threshold could simply have a tax rate of zero. IMO, this seems much fairer and simpler. Once their income exceeds this threshold, they could begin contributing.

Compliance with a sales tax scheme would be a nightmare to enforce- even the modestly wealthy and most business owners could easily just opt right out of it. While it's not really cost-effective to avoid all sales taxes currently- because sales taxes aren't prohibitively high- to increase them enough to try and replace income taxes would make it highly worthwhile to skirt.

The current tax system, its high rates and discriminatory taxation of saving and investment, reduces growth, hurts employment, and lowers incomes. Worse, the current tax structure is a nightmare not only to comply with, but to enforce. During the 1980's, the top tax rate was decreased substantially; from 70% to 28% and had no affect on housing nor charitible contribution. In fact, both experienced a sharp increase throughout the 80's. Plus, this was incentive for corporations to cease the practice of understating incomes and overstating deductions. Our taxable income increased.

If there were no tax on income- and therefore no accountability based on income, people can amass gargantuan tax-free fortunes while appearing on paper to consume (since that would be the primary tax collection point) zilch. It wouldn't even be all that hard to set up for even the modestly well-heeled, let alone the ultra-wealthy.

I can appreciate your point on no longer taxing income. A "Consumption" tax is one that includes taxing income, but at a flat rate. It does not discriminate against what we'd consider healthy behaviors such as marriage, investment, saving and handing your wealth down to your children at death. It also eliminates double-taxation and other unconstitutional behaviors such as taxation without representation, and assumed guilt.

I've never been any "tax the rich" big government sycophant, but please- just letting the rich totally out of taxation while socking it entirely to the poor is just stupid, especially since the reality is most taxes actually are paid by the rich.

I disagree primarily because I've not seen a flat tax proposal that did not take the poor into account. Again, there's nothing complex about a tax rate of zero for those under a certain threshold. Many suggest this is actually more beneficial in getting the poor back on their feet by protecting twice as much income. There are very good reasons why flatter taxes are now spreading like wildfire throughout Europe. They work.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

I'm dying to hear your take on why "trickle down economics" was a bad idea.

Because it doesn't work?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

I understand your concern with sales tax increases. I should've qualified the statement. I'm not 100% sold on a flat sales tax. I should've said, "Consumption" tax because this encompasses several proposals for consideration. Two of which are a flat sales, or flat income tax.

I think I misunderstood the exact plans you're in favor of. I'm fully in favor of a flat income tax, with a graduated lower end, as you describe.

What I'm completely against, is any tax scheme that seeks to put sales taxes in place of income taxes. The "plans" I've seen that propose such always get patently silly when they try and invent ways that somehow the poor would be exempted from them, like it's in any way possible to segregate everyone's consumption by income. Even if it were possible, who in their right mind would then admit to being wealthy enough to have to pay taxes? The rich would simply find ways to appear poor enough to skirt all sales taxes.

Anyway, it sounds like you're probably not talking about a strict sales-tax only plan, so forgive my misunderstanding. Also, I totally agree that the current code is way to costly and complex and needs to be simplified.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Because it doesn't work?

You're all over the map. You're the one spouting platitudes like, "open up trade!" and "more Capitalism!" somehow with the belief that you'll have trickle down to the poor in a system where corruption reigns, and the ruling classes control virtually ALL the money and power, and a corrupt government system stacked to keep it that way.

Yet in a country where trickle down DOES actually work, you want to declare that it doesn't?

[peeb]

Which country does it work in? Surely you don't mean the US? Real wages and standard of living have declined for the least wealthy since the 1970s. Your misquotes are charming, but opening up flows of capital and labor are not the same as trickle down economics.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Which country does it work in? Surely you don't mean the US? Real wages and standard of living have declined for the least wealthy since the 1970s.

Trickle down isn't even a proper term, it's more like flood down. The poor don't get their money from other poor people, they get it from rich people. The middle class doesn't maintain its middle class lifestyle by relying on poor people, it gets it by relying on the rich having enough money to keep them employed. Every time you find yourself looking for a job, my guess is you don't go scratching around skid row, but are looking for an employer with enough wealth to spare which will be your salary. That, or you imagined it grows on trees. (You wouldn't be alone in that non-thinking). Despite your bumperstickers, gloom and doom bullcrap, and usual leftist tripe, this process works just fine in the US for anyone who actually avails themselves of it.


It doesn't work in countries like Mexico, because the system keeps the poor from ever moving up to middle class, and certainly not rich. Such ranks are based on class only. Despite every leftwingnut's gloom and doom fantasy that's little more than a crutch for their own ignorance/laziness, anyone whose actually motivated can move up and out of poverty in the US, doing so by using capital provided them (by working for it) from people already wealthier than they are.

Your misquotes are charming, but opening up flows of capital and labor are not the same as trickle down economics.

Of course they aren't the same thing. The first is a meaningless platitude you spout for situations that have no need of it, and the second actually works with the right elements in place, such as in the US.


It's also worth noting, that you're one of those numbskulls that's in favor of importing 20-30 million plus impoverished people into the US, so that each can be further exploited for slave wages lower than the last group... and then turnnaround and whining about low wages, a condition your own "argument" encourages and embraces.

According to you, US businesses don't have to obey labor, wage, or immigration laws as they see fit, remember? Why the hell after you open borders twits give them complete permission to skirt the law, would you think you could then turn around a bitch about low wages? Why the F else do you think those businesses want millions of illegals here for? "Diversity?"

[peeb]

Real wages and standard of living have declined for the least wealthy since the 1970s. If anything, a 'flood up' of wealth being stripped from the poorest and middle classes to the extremely wealthy has taken place. Trickle down does not work.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Real wages and standard of living have declined for the least wealthy since the 1970s. If anything, a 'flood up' of wealth being stripped from the poorest and middle classes to the extremely wealthy has taken place. Trickle down does not work.

If it doesn't then why do millions of people who DON'T have trickle down in their countries want to come here?

[peeb]

The two issues have nothing to do with one another. Trickle down does not work in Mexico, and it does not work here. The poor are getting poorer in both places. The poor in Mexico are still poorer than the poor in the US, therefore they want to come to the US.