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Okay dorks... I'm at the WWDC (Page 5)
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turtle777
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Jun 28, 2004, 07:37 PM
 
Originally posted by Superchicken:
I'm actually using Konfabulator right now it's a neat little app... very non apple looking so I kinda don't like that aspect of it...
Yeah, Apple's done a great job to make their Dashboard look rrreaaallly Apple like...

Darn it Apple, could it be any MORE ugly ?

-t
     
Lateralus
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Jun 28, 2004, 07:42 PM
 
Is there any word on Tiger system requirements? I am wondering if Apple is going to drop support for all non-AGP Macs, including the B&W and the Yikes!.
I like chicken
I like liver
Meow Mix, Meow Mix
Please de-liv-er
     
theolein
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Jun 28, 2004, 09:15 PM
 
Originally posted by turtle777:
Yeah, Apple's done a great job to make their Dashboard look rrreaaallly Apple like...

Darn it Apple, could it be any MORE ugly ?

-t
The dashboard applets, just like the Konfabulator applets (Apple really should reimburse the Konfabulator guy) use Javascript to make them tick. They are fully configurable. That means you can change the interface to the eye-candy (or eyesore, depending on your viewpoint) and you can bet that the same people who now churn out themse for OSX will be churning out themes for the dashboard apps.

I have no idea just how useful dashboard will be, but I already have one or two ideas that will be useful for me.
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fireside
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Jun 28, 2004, 09:45 PM
 
Originally posted by Jim Paradise:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/search_finder.html <---- does that Finder image look incredibly bloated to anyone else? Same with the image of Automator: http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/automator.html
yeah and whats with the non-standard GUI elements in both of them?
     
deomacius
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Jun 28, 2004, 11:07 PM
 
Just out of curiosity... does that 30 inch monitor use both DVI ports to support that resolution? It seems like I read something to that affect.

You reap what you sow.
     
turtle777
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Jun 28, 2004, 11:27 PM
 
Originally posted by deomacius:
Just out of curiosity... does that 30 inch monitor use both DVI ports to support that resolution? It seems like I read something to that affect.
I don't think so.
They talked about the ability to run 2 monitors with that ONE card.

-t
     
Timo
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Jun 28, 2004, 11:49 PM
 
Originally posted by daimoni:
By the way... I was the only one in attendance that clapped when Steve Jobs introduced this.

It's like the whole 3rd party Apple developer community didn't even know what RSS/Atom was... nor the significance of it.

Amazing.
our geek is the ur-geek!
HA!
     
mdc
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Jun 29, 2004, 12:05 AM
 
Originally posted by theolein:
I have no idea just how useful dashboard will be, but I already have one or two ideas that will be useful for me.
after watching the keynote stream i thought of a few uses.
a. the calculator, ical, and address book that they showed:
b. more than one clock for time zones.
c. maybe a widget that you click and it uploads all the changed files in a folder to an ftp server. = no more opening transmit to upload 5 files.

i see dashboard being awesome.
     
daimoni  (op)
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Jun 29, 2004, 12:05 AM
 
.
( Last edited by daimoni; Sep 12, 2004 at 12:21 PM. )
     
Eug Wanker
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Jun 29, 2004, 12:08 AM
 
Originally posted by daimoni:
Yes. It requires both DVI ports and that special card.
No it does not.

Driving Force

The 30-inch Cinema HD Display is so big, it requires the next level of graphics technology. The NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL graphics card delivers, with the most advanced graphics engine available for Mac. This card, designed specifically to support the dual link DVI connection, delivers 2560 by 1600 resolution. Even better, it can drive two 30-inch displays, giving you the ultimate creative canvas. This $599 card will be available as a built to order option and as a standalone kit in August 2004.
     
daimoni  (op)
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Jun 29, 2004, 12:09 AM
 
.
( Last edited by daimoni; Sep 12, 2004 at 12:21 PM. )
     
daimoni  (op)
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Jun 29, 2004, 12:12 AM
 
.
( Last edited by daimoni; Sep 12, 2004 at 12:21 PM. )
     
MindFad
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Jun 29, 2004, 12:23 AM
 
Holy Bejesus, that's a ginormous display.

And you can have two of them connected for 8.2 million pixels. Insane. And crazy expensive. Something I will probably never own. If I had one of those, I would never, ever buy another monitor again!
     
Eug Wanker
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Jun 29, 2004, 12:26 AM
 
Originally posted by daimoni:
Yes it does. It requires dual link (read: dual DVI ports) on one card. However, the card can support two 30 inch displays.
Each dual-link port is a single port. ie. You can't plug in four 23" displays as configured.
     
daimoni  (op)
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Jun 29, 2004, 01:01 AM
 
.
( Last edited by daimoni; Sep 12, 2004 at 12:22 PM. )
     
Eug Wanker
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Jun 29, 2004, 01:04 AM
 
Originally posted by daimoni:
Oh, never mind. I forgot I'm talking to teenagers on MacNN. Silly me.
Nice.
     
fireside
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Jun 29, 2004, 01:43 AM
 
Steve Jobs says "boom" too much during the spotlight demo. it was rather annoying.

"Look, i'm searching for iMac. BOOM! its there."

"BOOM"
     
MindFad
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Jun 29, 2004, 02:14 AM
 
I was going to mention Steve's "boom!" thing, too. Also, he likes to give a "whoop" after every friggin' presenter.

Well, after seeing everything shown, I have to say I am very impressed, as well as optimistic. The demos give a better of idea of what you will be able to do, the things you'll be able to accomplish. Looks better demoed than on paper.

Also, I found Dashboard to be Apple resurrection of desk accessories�the space age version. It's similar in function to Konfabulator, but I like Apple's approach much better, though they may fundamentally serve up the same functionality in a sense. I like the idea of "desk accessories," where I can call on these little things as I need them, and get rid of them right away. I never like that things just "hung around" with Konfabulator. Of course, that refractive water ripple effect in Dashboard when you add a new widget was bad ass, of course. CoreImage is awesome.

iChat: awesome. Totally psyched. I can't wait to show that **** off to my friends. Phil got a little annoying in the video, and Steve kicked him out of the conference. It was funny.

Anyway, I'm psyched for Tiger already. Hopefully there's a lot more cool stuff to come, and the rest of the 150+ features aren't just little additions to apps like RSS readers�as cool as that addition is.

Side note: That Automator icon through me off a bit. Seems like quite a design change from the usual icons in terms of icon metaphors they tend to go with in their apps. I wonder if that was a contracted job, since Apple does do that, I heard. It's not something I would have expected from Apple, but I like it. Of course, I wouldn't have expected that poopy new Finder icon in Panther, so never mind.
     
Eug Wanker
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Jun 29, 2004, 05:59 AM
 
Originally posted by daimoni:
Yes it does. It requires dual link (read: dual DVI ports) on one card. However, the card can support two 30 inch displays.

From the Apple Store...

NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL

The groundbreaking new NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Ultra delivers the industry's first 16-pipe superscalar architecture and support for the world's fastest DDR3 memory to raise the bar for 3D graphics performance. The specifications of the GeForce 6800 Ultra GPU, are stunning: Using over 220 million transistors it supports a 256-bit interface for an effective memory bandwidth of 35.2 GB per second which delivers 600 million vertices, 6.4 billion textured pixels per second. The GPU is built on an AGP 8X board and includes 256MB of DDR3 memory for use in the most demanding graphics applications. It is the first card available to support the DVI standard dual link digital signal specification from the two DVI ports it features. This capability is required to drive the new 30-inch LCD, high resolution Apple Cinema HD display. The combination of a GeForce 6800 Ultra with a dual processor Power Mac G5 driving two 30-inch Apple Cinema HD Displays is the definitive tool for the creative professional.

Special note on the NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Ultra: due to size of this advanced graphics card, the adjacent PCI or PCI-X slot will be blocked and cannot be used. This reduces the number of available PCI or PCI-X slots from three to two.
Do you actually understand what you're quoting? Cuz it really sounds like you either don't have a clue, or else you are deliberately trying to confuse the issue.

The bottom line is that the new card has two ports, and each individual port by itself can drive a 30" display.
     
Mediaman_12
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Jun 29, 2004, 06:25 AM
 
Originally posted by MindFad:
Holy Bejesus, that's a ginormous display.

And you can have two of them connected for 8.2 million pixels. Insane. And crazy expensive. Something I will probably never own. If I had one of those, I would never, ever buy another monitor again!
Apple should sell some sort of TV Tuner to go with that massive display at 30" it's bigger (and more expensive) then most peoples TV's
     
vertex
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Jun 29, 2004, 06:43 AM
 
Originally posted by theolein:
The dashboard applets, just like the Konfabulator applets (Apple really should reimburse the Konfabulator guy) use Javascript to make them tick. They are fully configurable. That means you can change the interface to the eye-candy (or eyesore, depending on your viewpoint) and you can bet that the same people who now churn out themse for OSX will be churning out themes for the dashboard apps.

I have no idea just how useful dashboard will be, but I already have one or two ideas that will be useful for me.
It shoulld be pretty usefeul for some. At the moment I use Konfabulator, with 3 really hamdy widgets. One shows me the time in the country I'm in just now, and it also shows me the time in Australia (where my wife is). I badly need that since the time difference always throws me and I forget. lol

Also, the calender one, plus the weather one. Very handy.
     
paully dub
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Jun 29, 2004, 07:12 AM
 
Originally posted by MindFad:
Side note: That Automator icon through me off a bit. Seems like quite a design change from the usual icons in terms of icon metaphors they tend to go with in their apps. I wonder if that was a contracted job, since Apple does do that, I heard. It's not something I would have expected from Apple, but I like it. Of course, I wouldn't have expected that poopy new Finder icon in Panther, so never mind.
I was thinking the same thing. Not sure if that icon really conveys the idea of a user friendly script interface or whatever. What's that in his hands- a pipe? Is he going to beat me to death with a pipe a la I Robot?

But overall, I'm much happier having seen everything with my own eyes. Pity Steve didn't at least swivel one of the screens for us though...

Adopt-A-Yankee
     
Karl Goiser
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Jun 29, 2004, 07:33 AM
 
Originally posted by moep:
Damn, they even copied the Konspose from Konfabulator.
You mean from iCalViewer don't you?


Karl
     
vertex
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Jun 29, 2004, 07:47 AM
 
Despite Apple's and nVidia's past bust-up, let's hope this is a sign of better things in the near future.
     
starman
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Jun 29, 2004, 08:07 AM
 
Originally posted by vertex:
Despite Apple's and nVidia's past bust-up, let's hope this is a sign of better things in the near future.
Are you some kind of nVidia fanboy?

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vertex
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Jun 29, 2004, 08:17 AM
 
Originally posted by starman:
Are you some kind of nVidia fanboy?
Why? You jealous cause you're hung up on ATi?
So no, I'm not. I just don't beat around the bush when it comes to down to the bare facts of things. Ask me 2 years ago about ATi, I'd have said nice things, I still do when it comes to their FireGL line of cards. ask me today what I think is the most reliable, and performance beating cards betwen ATi and nVidia for 3D, I'l say nVidia. Why? Because tjhey are, and Apple only offer ATi and nVidia, so choice is limited.

Would you like me to go into detail about higher end GFX cards like IBM's, 3D Labs? or how about the nice SGI tezro I have sitting here which will tank any of those cards for compositing work.

See, you missed my point entirely. I was speaking about certain markets. You wll notice that I said in another post that I'd go for ATi when it came to games, and possibly video work. So where's the fanboi rhetoric you seem to be spouting?
I'm not hung up ;like you seem to be here.

How about I say 3Dlabs realizm leaves both nVidia snd ATi for dust in the 3D world? Make you happy?
     
starman
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Jun 29, 2004, 08:20 AM
 
Originally posted by vertex:
Why? You jealous cause you're hung up on ATi?
Yup, typical fanboy response. Thanks.

Mike

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vertex
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Jun 29, 2004, 08:27 AM
 
Originally posted by starman:
Yup, typical fanboy response. Thanks.

Mike
Glad you can admit it. I don't have such leanings though. I'l evaluate whast is on offer to run the software we have. From XSI to Maya, to ZBrush, Lightwave, etc. For in the main, nVidia proved to be the most reliable for our workstations (modelers, texture artists, and animators) ATi failed te test on sewveral key occasions. Things might change when ATi get their arses back into considering the 3D market, but until then, 3Dlabs, nVidia etc still give us the most reliable solutions.

If ATi do pull themselves together, I'll be there with open arms.
     
starman
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Jun 29, 2004, 08:30 AM
 
I haven't admitted anything. All I see from you is this nVidia cheerleader attitude with absolutely nothing to back it up except heresay and not one shread of hard evidence.

Oh, and my G5 has an nVidia card.

Mike

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vertex
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Jun 29, 2004, 08:37 AM
 
Originally posted by starman:
I haven't admitted anything. All I see from you is this nVidia cheerleader attitude with absolutely nothing to back it up except heresay and not one shread of hard evidence.

Oh, and my G5 has an nVidia card.

Mike
What? I expressed an opinion based on experience in various areas and that's not good enough? Fair enough, I did say to yo to go ask some of my friends such as Jill at Alias, and also go talk to those at ILM, Pixar, PDI, etc to find out wat the curent feelings are in 3D. What facts do you want? It;s eople's experiences and the current trend in 3D just now between ATi and nVidia. I'm not even going to go into 3Dlabs or IBM hee since they aen't even available on the Mac.

Look, its easy, here's some points., Go join the XSI maling list, ask those involved, see what they say. Go ask Maya users in, I don't knowem cgtalk, or elsewhere, see what they say. I;m sure yuo'l be surprised.

I wonder , how are you claiming all this, with a definite stand-point wgewn you haven't said what you';re using Maya for, in what enviroment.
So basically, you're dismissing well known feelings hee throughout the film industry based on you not having an opinion excet to imply ATi are fine fir 3D.

I
     
vertex
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Jun 29, 2004, 08:49 AM
 
One thing I wished they do, is to release Safari with RSS soon rather than waiting for Tiger. It'd be nice to try it out as a full release, rather than Tiger specific. I;m going to take Tiger's Safari and see how it fares in Panther tomorrow.
     
theolein
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Jun 29, 2004, 09:23 AM
 
Originally posted by starman:
I haven't admitted anything. All I see from you is this nVidia cheerleader attitude with absolutely nothing to back it up except heresay and not one shread of hard evidence.

Oh, and my G5 has an nVidia card.

Mike
Although the guy is name dropping like crazy, he does seem to have some experience in the industry, but I agree with you that unless he posts actual specific driver problems with the ATI cards, it is just heresay and a penis size competition between you two
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vertex
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Jun 29, 2004, 09:30 AM
 
Originally posted by theolein:
Although the guy is name dropping like crazy, he does seem to have some experience in the industry, but I agree with you that unless he posts actual specific driver problems with the ATI cards, it is just heresay and a penis size competition between you two
Very funny. I just made a point that is well known amongst people who use these cards in the industry. I also pointed out to starman to go look, go read on any decent forum, go ask the devs, go ask those who use them, and see for himself.

I was only saying that I was glad Apple used nVidia, and highlighted my issues with ATi, for me that was pretty natural since it's such a given in this small industry.
You can't put any benchmarks here since it has nothing to do with that, it's about experience, and givens.

I still don't know what starman's beef is, except to laugh at my stance. If he's saying ATi do not have issues with software like Maya, then I' lauhing hard.
     
starman
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Jun 29, 2004, 09:30 AM
 
Originally posted by vertex:
Very funny. I just made a point that is well known amongst people who use these cards in the industry. I also pointed out to starman to go look, go read on any decent forum, go ask the devs, go ask those who use them, and see for himself.

I was only saying that I was glad Apple used nVidia, and highlighted my issues with ATi, for me that was pretty natural since it's such a given in this small industry.
You can't put any benchmarks here since it has nothing to do with that, it's about experience, and givens.

I still don't know what starman's beef is, except to laugh at my stance. If he's saying ATi do not have issues with software like Maya, then I' lauhing hard.
But you haven't posted a goddamn thing telling us exactly what the problems are

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vertex
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Jun 29, 2004, 09:32 AM
 
Here's just one post I quickly found:

I have used (recently)

ATI 9800
ATI FireGL
Quadro fx500
Quadro NVS 280

Games and Maya/Max

I like'd that the ATI could scream thru games (Battlefield) but I was unimpressed with it in Maya. Especially it's dual plane support (might be fixed by now). I switch'd to the fx500 and was very happy with Maya (1 million polys with a slight slow down), but games suffered. I tried the NVS and was happy but it was definately not as powerful as the fx500. Played games ok, not suggested.

My main "thing" is Maya/Max so I went with the FX500. I felt it worked much better than the ATI's in Maya/Max. I did decide to go ATI for my game machine though.

Just my opinion

This probably doesn't clear up anything but might help. I found the decision a hard one.
     
Eug Wanker
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Jun 29, 2004, 09:51 AM
 
Originally posted by vertex:
Here's just one post I quickly found:

I have used (recently)

ATI 9800
ATI FireGL
Quadro fx500
Quadro NVS 280

Games and Maya/Max

I like'd that the ATI could scream thru games (Battlefield) but I was unimpressed with it in Maya. Especially it's dual plane support (might be fixed by now). I switch'd to the fx500 and was very happy with Maya (1 million polys with a slight slow down), but games suffered. I tried the NVS and was happy but it was definately not as powerful as the fx500. Played games ok, not suggested.

My main "thing" is Maya/Max so I went with the FX500. I felt it worked much better than the ATI's in Maya/Max. I did decide to go ATI for my game machine though.

Just my opinion

This probably doesn't clear up anything but might help. I found the decision a hard one.
Yeah, but that's on a different platform, using different drivers. And the video card hardware isn't even exactly the same.

eg. The ATI Radeon 9800 Pro isn't even qualified for Maya on Windows, but on Mac OS X it is fully qualified for Maya.
     
turtle777
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Jun 29, 2004, 09:57 AM
 
Originally posted by daimoni:
Oh, never mind. I forgot I'm talking to teenagers on MacNN. Silly me.
You should NEVER judge others based on yourself

-t
     
vertex
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Jun 29, 2004, 10:03 AM
 
Originally posted by starman:
But you haven't posted a goddamn thing telling us exactly what the problems are
Am I supposed to? I am saying that general consensus amongst 3D animators is that ATi are problematic. The issues are widespread, it's a known quantity. It's the culmination of a lot of tried and tested case situations. That's it. I told you that if you want to go find out why, then go read, go look at those who use them and why they have issues. I pointed you in the right direction, to Jill at Alias, to various forums, to users of ATi cards.

So go do the legwork. My simple stance was that for 3D they are sh!t. It's so obvious that it's like saying XP doesn't have a menubar at the top of the scren.

You go look for why they are an issue. I already know why, and like I pointed out to you, go look at the various places I told you about.

Easy.

Just to simplify it.

Channel box - ATi issue, renders the program unusable (this is a problem wth version 6 and affects other cards, but ATi had issues in 5.

Sub-d's on a several hundred thousand poly object scene
Overlay planes
Screen artifacts in paint tools with Unlimited

The list goes on.

For specifics, go read.the users comments.
     
vertex
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Jun 29, 2004, 10:06 AM
 
Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Yeah, but that's on a different platform, using different drivers. And the video card hardware isn't even exactly the same.

eg. The ATI Radeon 9800 Pro isn't even qualified for Maya on Windows, but on Mac OS X it is fully qualified for Maya.
No, on OS X there are issues, thart's what I am also mentioning. Qualified cards also have problems.

Boot up a rotoscoped scene with a million poly sub-d object, then layer it with materials, using Mental Ray.

There's just one issue with ATi on OS X, it freaks out on you.
     
vertex
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Jun 29, 2004, 10:12 AM
 
Here's some more issues with ATi and Maya. They can intermitant, and certainly show stoppes. Some are on Windows, but the ones relevant to OS X are here too.

Isoparms on Nurbs Surfaces : dragging an isoparm on a nurbs surface causes a red trail that follows your cursor where there should be none.

PaintEffects : when dragging your mouse over a surface a trail of red will accompany the cursor on screen

Sculpt tools : also has a red trail that follows the cursor on screen, looks like a ghost of the original tool

Paint Effects viewport : new to CAT 3.9 , viewport refreshes in strange ways when you move the scene around


I can add more.
     
starman
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Jun 29, 2004, 10:17 AM
 
Originally posted by vertex:
Here's some more issues with ATi and Maya. They can intermitant, and certainly show stoppes. Some are on Windows, but the ones relevant to OS X are here too.

Isoparms on Nurbs Surfaces : dragging an isoparm on a nurbs surface causes a red trail that follows your cursor where there should be none.

Paint Effects : same deal, when dragging your mouse over a surface a trail of red will accompany the cursor on screen

Sculpt tools : also has a red trail that follows the cursor on screen, looks like a ghost of the original tool

Paint Effects viewport : new to CAT 3.9 , viewport refreshes in strange ways when you move the scene around


I can add more.
Are these Windows or Mac issues? CAT 3.9? They're up to 4.6 on Windows and they don't call the drivers "Catalyst" on the Mac so...WTF are you talking about? This is a MAC forum, and your driver info is like a year out of date.

Mike

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Oisín
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Jun 29, 2004, 10:19 AM
 
Originally posted by vertex:
It's so obvious that it's like saying XP doesn't have a menubar at the top of the scren.
Mine does
     
vertex
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Jun 29, 2004, 10:21 AM
 
Originally posted by starman:
Are these Windows or Mac issues? CAT 3.9? They're up to 4.6 on Windows and they don't call the drivers "Catalyst" on the Mac so...WTF are you talking about? This is a MAC forum, and your driver info is like a year out of date.

Mike
Didn't you read what I said? They cover both, areas that are specific to Windows are also mentioned. Mac relevent ones are mixed in.

God, would you just do yourself a favour. Go over to CGTalk, post a damn question asking what issues people have with OS X ATi and Maya, and wait.
     
starman
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Jun 29, 2004, 10:23 AM
 
Originally posted by vertex:
Didn't you read what I said? They cover both, areas that are specific to Windows are also mentioned. Mac relevent ones are mixed in.

God, would you just do yourself a favour. Go over to CGTalk, post a damn question asking what issues people have with OS X ATi and Maya, and wait.
pwned

Your info is A YEAR OUT OF DATE. Why not talk about how bad the sh*t runs on a Commodore 64?

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vertex
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Jun 29, 2004, 10:26 AM
 
Originally posted by starman:
pwned

Your info is A YEAR OUT OF DATE. Why not talk about how bad the sh*t runs on a Commodore 64?
Bollocks. The channel box issue in vesion 6 is just out. So, would you still stop acting like you're in denial about ATi and Maya and get your arse over to the Maya forums ti find out?

Please? Just so you don't keep acting like this. Then come back to me.
     
vertex
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Jun 29, 2004, 10:27 AM
 
Oh, have you tried my rotoscope sub-d scene yet? Go on, pleasure me.

Throw in a 700,000 poly object, Sub-d it, comp it with some rotoscoped footage, use mental ray shaders. Now, what do you see?

And send me your scene file once you've done it.
     
starman
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Jun 29, 2004, 10:29 AM
 
Originally posted by vertex:
Oh, have you tried my rotoscope sub-d scene yet? Go on, pleasure me.

Throw in a 700,000 poly object, Sub-d it, comp it with some rotoscoped footage, use mental ray shaders. Now, what do you see?

And send me your scene file once you've done it.
With the 3.9 drivers?

On a Mac?

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vertex
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Jun 29, 2004, 10:30 AM
 
Originally posted by starman:
With the 3.9 drivers?

On a Mac?
Funny. Take your Maya license, ok, now plug in your ATi card, latest certfied drivers, all on OS X.

Now, do that scene above.

edit: I told you that soe of those benches were for Windows. The purpose was to use Mac specific test (isoparms) in OS X, with cert. drivers.
     
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Jun 29, 2004, 10:32 AM
 
Originally posted by starman:
pwned

Your info is A YEAR OUT OF DATE. Why not talk about how bad the sh*t runs on a Commodore 64?
Damn, Mike. You gotta learn how to pull up your panties in the morning without getting them in a bunch.
Dictionaries are your friends.
     
vertex
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Jun 29, 2004, 10:35 AM
 
Originally posted by Grammar Police:
Damn, Mike. You gotta learn how to pull up your panties in the morning without getting them in a bunch.
I already made it clear to him that those Windows specific tests were purely for Windows. In amongst those were Mac ones, sich as the isoparm one, which he couldtry on his bestest Mac with his ATi card and cert. drdivers. He chose to not see that.
     
 
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