[Eug Wanker]

Charts

Not a big leap in logic, but nonetheless TS adds a name to the app.

[production_coordinator]

It wouldn't surprise me... it could even be a quasi port from NeXT. I only wish they would build iWork/iLife into the OS (and tack on another $20-$40 to the price).

[El Gato]

Meh, the article says that it's aimed at consumers and is not a direct competitor to Excel. I still hope they include a nice selection of equations (particularly financial).

It would be nice if there was some limited SQL capabilities built into the iWork products as well. Then you could have a master spreadsheet in Charts and then run a query in your Pages table to get specific data.

[TheIceMan]

Sounds very interesting. I'm a novice user of Excel so Charts might be perfect for someone like me. Speculation of course.

[sushiism]

I found Pages very impressive, it did everything I could ever want from a word processor and things like aligning multiple pictures to the right was a one click affair not a 1 dialogue 1 tab 1 radio button 1 confirm epic.

So I'm excited about this!

[Cadaver]

This would make me very happy if true.

[- - e r i k - -]

Think Secret have a high degree of reliability.

[greenamp]

Originally Posted by El Gato

Meh, the article says that it's aimed at consumers and is not a direct competitor to Excel. I still hope they include a nice selection of equations (particularly financial).

It would be nice if there was some limited SQL capabilities built into the iWork products as well. Then you could have a master spreadsheet in Charts and then run a query in your Pages table to get specific data.

Yeah but see the thing is, most people who use excel only use the basic stuff, like simple forumlas, customized tables, pie charts, etc. An inuitive spread sheet app from Apple could very easily become a dominant player because of this.

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by greenamp

Yeah but see the thing is, most people who use excel only use the basic stuff, like simple forumlas, customized tables, pie charts, etc. An inuitive spread sheet app from Apple could very easily become a dominant player because of this.

IMHO, the iWork apps are a near failure. While they are great, I find nearly nobody using them. Apple should give them away to every new computer buyer and/or bundle it with the OS and increase the price of the OS slightly.

[CharlesS]

Yeah, no kidding. They bundled AppleWorks, why can't they bundle iWork? Get it some installed base.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Think Secret have a high degree of reliability.

The thing is, they predicted that a spreadsheet app would be released as part of iWork 06, and it wasn't.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[slugslugslug]

I think they admitted to having a not-very-high confidence level for last year's spreadsheet prediction, so they covered their ass a little. This time around, it'll look worse if they're wrong, because they seem pretty sure of themselves.

If it comes out, maybe '07 is the year I a) buy iWork and b) learn how to use a damn spreadsheet for something.

Of course, Pages will probably still make you do the annoying extra import/export step to work on any file that's not its own format, so I'll probably just keep using Word or TextEdit so I can edit a document across computers..

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Yeah, no kidding. They bundled AppleWorks, why can't they bundle iWork? Get it some installed base.

Bingo... there simply isn't an install base. I use Keynote on a regular basis, but have yet to find many others using it (and I'm talking about other Mac people). I think they expected people to simply buy it, and it didn't work out that way.

IMHO, and I know I'm not in the accounting department, they should have offered iLife+iWork for $79. That would have been an amazing bundle. When iWork adds a few more features/programs... break them up and sell both for $50 each.

Oh well... I guess it will simply become another amazing application from Apple that very few people use.

[Cadaver]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

Bingo... there simply isn't an install base. I use Keynote on a regular basis, but have yet to find many others using it (and I'm talking about other Mac people). I think they expected people to simply buy it, and it didn't work out that way.

IMHO, and I know I'm not in the accounting department, they should have offered iLife+iWork for $79. That would have been an amazing bundle. When iWork adds a few more features/programs... break them up and sell both for $50 each.

Oh well... I guess it will simply become another amazing application from Apple that very few people use.

I love Keynote, personally. I never use PowerPoint any more.
Even when I give lectures at large, national meetings where they want all the talks preloaded on the one presentation machine before hand, I make them relent and allow me to present off my Mac.

I've been burned by PowerPoint losing track of video files once too many times. I once presented at a national meeting where there were 4 speakers in the AM before lunch (one of whom was me). Of the 4 of us, my talk was the only one with video clips that worked. The others were presenting off Windows machines.

Edit: and my wife makes flyers for our daughters' ice skating teams in Pages 2.0 that she says she'd never be able to make otherwise.

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by Cadaver

I love Keynote, personally. I never use PowerPoint any more.
Even when I give lectures at large, national meetings where they want all the talks preloaded on the one presentation machine before hand, I make them relent and allow me to present off my Mac.

I've been burned by PowerPoint losing track of video files once too many times. I once presented at a national meeting where there were 4 speakers in the AM before lunch (one of whom was me). Of the 4 of us, my talk was the only one with video clips that worked. The others were presenting off Windows machines.

Edit: and my wife makes flyers for our daughters' ice skating teams in Pages 2.0 that she says she'd never be able to make otherwise.

I wow people at every presentation I give... but it should be on every Mac by default... Apple should build it into the cost of the OS/Hardware.

[voodoo]

Keynote is quite good, but Pages is just mediocre. Let's see what happens when these get upgraded and Charts gets added.

V

[nforcer]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

I only wish they would build iWork/iLife into the OS (and tack on another $20-$40 to the price).

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

Apple should give them away to every new computer buyer and/or bundle it with the OS and increase the price of the OS slightly.

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

Apple should build it into the cost of the OS/Hardware.

I disagree. Keep them separate and let people buy them as needed. Bundling them together and increasing the cost of the OS is what I call "the democrat approach". Example:

"Oh here's social security. You may be able to save your money over the years and prepare for retirement yourself but we'll tax you for our program anyway."

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by nforcer

I disagree. Keep them separate and let people buy them as needed. Bundling them together and increasing the cost of the OS is what I call "the democrat approach". Example:

"Oh here's social security. You may be able to save your money over the years and prepare for retirement yourself but we'll tax you for our program anyway."

This isn't politics... it's business. I think if there was a wider user base, it could be broken off in the future. Also, it adds value to the OS... If OS X included iLife and iWork for another $20... wouldn't that be good?

[nforcer]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

This isn't politics... it's business. I think if there was a wider user base, it could be broken off in the future. Also, it adds value to the OS... If OS X included iLife and iWork for another $20... wouldn't that be good?

It was hard not to draw a political comparison. I should have left it in the lounge.

If OS X included iLife and iWork and you needed applications in both, for +$20 that would be a great deal. For those who didn't need it that would be an extra $20, another install disc (or 2 - idvd is quite large) and some extra apps they don't need. The money to subsidize that sale would have to come from somewhere. From a business perspective Apple would be unnecessarily losing money from this move and Apple losing money on something is not good. I suppose such a bundle may cause the OS to sell more copies, but I doubt it would be enough to make up what they make now from selling iLife, iWork, and the OS separately.

Aside from the business point, I simply believe the OS needs to remain an OS and not become cluttered up with an app to do everything or a bundle with every major app you might need. It kind of reminds me of that article last week about "23 things we want to see in leopard" that basically amounted to "clone diskwarrior, clone virtual pc, clone whatever app, etc." There is much Apple can improve and develop to sell the OS on its own merits.

I'll pay for the OS and while extras are nice I'm not willing to pay more for something I don't necessarily need.

[CharlesS]

Well, the thing about iWork is that it's not selling too well right now. If they bundle it with Macs, then they would dramatically increase its installed base. This could result in:

1. More word-of-mouth for the product

2. More legitimacy for the product (get it a reputation, get it seen as a feasible office suite)

3. More people buying upgrades for the product

ClarisWorks/AppleWorks used to be bundled with Macs not all that long ago. It had a huge user base, and there were a lot of people who swore by that program until Apple started letting it stagnate around the time OS X came out.

Another thing this would cause would be cost effectiveness. Right now, you can take the price of any shipping Mac and then add $400 for Office ($150 if you're a student) in order to have a workable office program. Suddenly Macs aren't as cost effective as they look at first glance. Most people aren't going to buy iWork because they won't shell out $80 for a program that has little to no reputation and that they may not even have heard of. Bundle iWork with the machine, and all of a sudden the Mac has a feasible office suite built-in for no extra charge, which the end user can shell out the extra cash to replace with Office if he/she so desires, but is not required to in order to be able to type up a term paper or a report or a resume. And this will all change.

Last summer, my Rev. B iMac G5 came with AppleWorks bundled, and the iWork demo. That is insane. Why bundle the obsolete product and make the whole thing look bad (Say what you want about Pages, but it's far better than AW's word processor, which is horrible)? I have no idea if they're still doing that, but my hope has been that they've been doing this because iWork doesn't have a spreadsheet yet, sort of like how OS 9 was still the default OS on Macs when OS X was available but not quite ready for end users. Hopefully, if ThinkSecret is correct, the addition of Charts will cause iWork to take over the position that AppleWorks has occupied, so that the latter can finally die.

[barney ntd]

There's a BIG difference between bundling it with the OS and bundling it with the machines.

Bundling it with the OS means either giving it away for free (which means it won't be developed any more) or making people pay for it when they know they don't want it (which will reduce OS sales). Anyone buying an OS upgrade already knows what software they use, and bundled iWork isn't going to stop them from using Office when they already have a copy. The only effect of this is to force Office users to subsidise iWork users.

Bundling it with the machines gives people the chance to try it out before they commit to Office. Given the choice between shelling out $400 for something you know and trust and everyone else uses, and $80 for something new to learn that you've not heard of before and that you suspect isn't going to stop you from having to buy Office anyway, most people will save the bother and hand over the cash. But if it's already installed and working, a significant number of people will try it and notice that they don't need to pay $400 more. Apple could then make money from upgrades just as they do with iLife.

Barney.

[Reggie Fowler]

perhaps the reason it's not selling well is because Pages is a crapy jolty program. Keynote is great! If Charts turns out to be like Pages or Aperature.....nobody will buy it. Quality is everything.

[TETENAL]

I like Pages. It is definitely not crappy.

[slugslugslug]

I completely agree with barney ntd. They should at least bundle it on the consumer-targeted Macs. They could still sell it separately for "Pro" Mac users or people who want the next year's version. And it should always be cheaper if you buy it with iLife. If it does get a third App, $50 does seem unreasonably cheap. But $80 for iLife or iWork, or $120 bundled makes some sense. And perhaps another $20-30 off if you buy 'em with OS X.

[Eug Wanker]

Apple already bundles an iWork tryout with Macs, as well as a MS Office tryout. I wonder if Apple isn't bundling the full iWork to keep MS happy.

Originally Posted by Reggie Fowler

perhaps the reason it's not selling well is because Pages is a crapy jolty program. Keynote is great! If Charts turns out to be like Pages or Aperature.....nobody will buy it. Quality is everything.

Aperture sells pretty well actually from what I've heard. Not outstandingly well, but well enough for its market. Personally I think 1.1 is a pretty good program too. I agree though that Aperture 1.0 left much do be desired.

Yes Keynote is pretty good, but it still needs work. Pages does layout well, but needs work too before it can more viable as a mainstream document editor IMO.

I just hope Charts isn't as annoying as Pages or Aperture were in their first iterations.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Apple already bundles an iWork tryout with Macs, as well as a MS Office tryout. I wonder if Apple isn't bundling the full iWork to keep MS happy.

Again, Apple bundled AppleWorks with Macs for years. The old Performas had it bundled on them back in the 90s, all the way up to my iMac G5 in summer 2005 and perhaps even further on. If that were going to piss MS off, then I think they would have gotten pissed off by now.

[nforcer]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Again, Apple bundled AppleWorks with Macs for years. The old Performas had it bundled on them back in the 90s, all the way up to my iMac G5 in summer 2005 and perhaps even further on. If that were going to piss MS off, then I think they would have gotten pissed off by now.

I don't know; AppleWorks has not been a threat since the OS 9 days. With everything so laughably dated and bad in AppleWorks, I can't help but wonder if bundling Appleworks with newer systems actually helped drive people to buy Office.

While MS has nothing to be worried about now, if Apple could get full compatibility with the Office file formats and bring out this Numbers/Charts app iWork could be a threat. iWork is a modern set of apps; no porting crap or legacy stuff to worry about. With full compatibility if it were bundled I can't help but wonder about the people who would then view it as a "good enough" solution and not buy Office.

[DigitalEl]

Originally Posted by nforcer

It was hard not to draw a political comparison. I should have left it in the lounge.

Yeah, probably so.

I agree with your main point though. Instead of a stretch of a political jab, it could be called the Microsoft approach. I don't want everything tied into the OS or bundled. Some people would never need those programs. They shouldn't be forced to pay for them. Many others need more robust, big boy apps. They shouldn't have to pay for consumer-level stuff.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by nforcer

I don't know; AppleWorks has not been a threat since the OS 9 days. With everything so laughably dated and bad in AppleWorks, I can't help but wonder if bundling Appleworks with newer systems actually helped drive people to buy Office.

While MS has nothing to be worried about now, if Apple could get full compatibility with the Office file formats and bring out this Numbers/Charts app iWork could be a threat. iWork is a modern set of apps; no porting crap or legacy stuff to worry about. With full compatibility if it were bundled I can't help but wonder about the people who would then view it as a "good enough" solution and not buy Office.

Yeah, but back in the OS 9 days and earlier it was a pretty decent app. It was compatible with the Office file formats, it worked well, and a lot of people found it to be good enough that they used it instead of Office. Heck, back in the day there were a bunch of people who preferred it over Office. During most of AppleWorks/ClarisWorks' glory years, from 1984 (its debut on the Apple II) to around 2000 (when it started to suck), MS Office was in existence, and they didn't seem too worried about AppleWorks.

Plus, don't forget Gates' own comments about the then-rumored iWork back in January 2005:

Gizmodo: How do you feel about this rumor going around that Apple's going to launch their own Office competitor? Their own office suite.

Gates: They've always had a Works-type product.

Gizmodo: Yeah, but if they end up coming out with an actual competitor and sort of billing it as that, would that... Since Office for the Mac has always been—well, not a huge revenue generator, but it's always been that one...

Gates: It's been a great business for us. I mean, not as a percentage of Microsoft, but it's a very, very good business. We have a great relationship with Apple.

I don't know what they're thinking, but they've always had the low-end product—It's actually not that low-end. It's pretty good. Not as good as Office, but not bad at all—that they've bundled in with different machines.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Yeah, no kidding. They bundled AppleWorks, why can't they bundle iWork? Get it some installed base.

I agree. I bet there are more Mac users using Open or NeoOffice than iWork, simply because I don't see the logic in paying that kind of bread just to type papers.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I agree. I bet there are more Mac users using Open or NeoOffice than iWork, simply because I don't see the logic in paying that kind of bread just to type papers.

I don't think I've ever met anyone in real life that uses OpenOffice or NeoOffice. In fact, besides the few geeks, no one else I know has even heard of these apps. I know a few that use iWork, although only for Keynote.

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Yeah, but back in the OS 9 days and earlier it was a pretty decent app.

Valid point, but then again, the OS 9 days is ancient history, and even then in the latter OS 9 days AppleWorks was pretty much dead.

Basically, in the 21st century, AppleWorks was not even remotely a threat to Office.

OTOH, it could be argued that iWork isn't a threat either, but at least Keynote looks much nicer and Pages offers some superior features to Office. But yeah, it's still not a significant threat to Office.

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I agree. I bet there are more Mac users using Open or NeoOffice than iWork, simply because I don't see the logic in paying that kind of bread just to type papers.

I couldn't disagree more. As Eugh Wanker indicated... VERY few people are using OpenOffice or NeoOffice in the real world. I would say more people are using Claris Works (yes, Claris!).

IMHO, Pages IS NOT a Microsoft competitor. It's a mix between Word and InDesign... specifically for those that are looking for design templates.

[kcmac]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I agree. I bet there are more Mac users using Open or NeoOffice than iWork, simply because I don't see the logic in paying that kind of bread just to type papers.

Well, whatever the tally, my bet is hardly anyone is using either. (I am one of the few using iWork...and enjoy it. But I only use Pages.)

I would like to see them bundle it but not charge anything above what they do now for the OS or for the machine. The trouble with Pages is that it is not a typical word processor or a page layout program. It is a sophisticated, must use to get adjusted to it word processor app.

Unless you really care about styles and are picky that way (which is important to me) it is just a step outside of what most users want to go through. In that basic sense, Word is initially easier to use.

I am still hopeful the next version will be even easier to use for the masses and bundled.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

I couldn't disagree more. As Eugh Wanker indicated... VERY few people are using OpenOffice or NeoOffice in the real world. I would say more people are using Claris Works (yes, Claris!).

No way in hell. There are several school systems that are using OpenOffice in Windows or Linux. Our local high school is part of a state wide Linux pilot. In this high school alone there are 124 of these computers dedicated to running OpenOffice (StarOffice actually, but same thing) that serve a couple thousands students in that school alone, and I believe there are 7 other schools in this state wide pilot.

Look at what the state of MA wants to do, in addition to countries like Brazil, and other non-American countries. In short, I'd be willing to bet just about anything that there is *far* more OpenOffice usage than Pages usage.


edit: I did say Mac users... okay, I shouldn't have said that rephrase - far more OpenOffice usage overall than Pages usage.

[hmurchison2001]

http://www.dabbledb.com/

This is a hosted app that combines spreadsheet and more functional database features. I've just watched the 7 minute demo video and was pretty impressed. It even has calendar views and PDF, Ical and RSS export.

Boy I miss the days when products like DabblDB seemed to be coming out daily. Applications sought to be cool and different and then things when corporate. Now everyone wants to be a Microsoft Office clone which means that only very small companies are really trying to make groundbreaking apps. Apple's spent too much time protecting Mac Office and neutering their productline. I reserve the right to change my mind but man I'd love to see iWork 07 really hit the ground with some new ways of working. All the disparate tools are there to combine into a masterpiece.

[sushiism]

Originally Posted by voodoo

Keynote is quite good, but Pages is just mediocre. Let's see what happens when these get upgraded and Charts gets added.

V

No way its amazing, I wrote my dissertation in it and the layout functionality made it come out beautifully and it was close to effortless adding lots of images in a certain style.

Its slow on my powerbook but its excellent to use and the text you print out from it is much higher quality than from word. The fonts are smoother and better detailed.

[production_coordinator]

IMHO, Pages is NOT a Microsoft Word replacement. I think Word has numerous features Pages doesn't, and vice versa. It's nearly impossible to make a Word look like a Pages document without spending numerous hours or something that would take pages minutes (or seconds).

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Yes Keynote is pretty good, but it still needs work. Pages does layout well, but needs work too before it can more viable as a mainstream document editor IMO.

I just hope Charts isn't as annoying as Pages or Aperture were in their first iterations.

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

IMHO, Pages IS NOT a Microsoft competitor. It's a mix between Word and InDesign... specifically for those that are looking for design templates.

TS is now saying that the new Pages will have separate word processing and page layout modes.

"Among the most notable will be the introduction of two new modes, Word Processing and Layout, that will each be optimized for their respective tasks as opposed to Pages' current handling of both types of documents with one common set of templates and tools.

Apple hopes the new Word Processing mode will better position Pages for day-to-day document creation. A number of convenient features catered to writers and typists will also be wrapped into Pages 3, including a thesaurus and integration with Spotlight, Wikipedia, and Google. Apple is also said to be looking to build a robust grammar checking engine for Pages that could find its way into other Apple and Cocoa applications."

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by ThinkSecret

Font and styles settings will include a WYSIWYG font menu, greatly expediting font browsing and selection compared to the current "Show Fonts" window.

Thank God! That's the one thing Pages really needed.

My only wish is that they would add this to Cocoa itself rather than just to Pages, so that all Cocoa apps could just drag a font menu out of Interface Builder rather than having to implement it themselves. The font panel is nice, but sometimes you just want to have a plain old font menu.

I hope this means they're going to revamp the interface a bit - there are a few other things that Pages would benefit from, such as letting the ruler be present by default when opening a new document, allowing the alignment and spacing settings to be in the toolbar, and having the four different types of tab stops visible in the toolbar so that you can drag whichever type you want onto the ruler, rather than the current double-click to change the tab type, which is sort of unintuitive.

TextEdit can actually do all the things I mentioned above, so hopefully someone at Apple realizes these things.

[iREZ]

so who here thinks iWork should be bundled in with the OS?

[SVass]

Those who don't understand how to use spreadsheets will die broke or were born rich and lucky. (Materialism keeps people from starving.) Those who like pretty fonts instead of content may have the wrong objective in mind. iWork is worthless without a spreadsheet. Unfortunately, Microsoft kept changing the interface and the file type in Excel and Word, thus confusing users. Most people need a simple word processor, a simple spreadsheet, and a simple Draw/Paint program. Most do not have a need for presentation software or a document generator with tables of contents and index generators. sam