[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I can't believe anyone is arguing that region coding is actually a good thing. That is the number 1 thing I hate the most about DVD, and even more than CSS.

Sure, the New Line release date discrepancy is not ideal, but I'd rather deal with that than region coding any day.

No one is saying its a good thing, we are just saying why its there.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I can't believe anyone is arguing that region coding is actually a good thing. That is the number 1 thing I hate the most about DVD, and even more than CSS.

Like DRM, region coding isn't really good, but I can't say that it's 100% bad. It doesn't really affect most people and it makes the movie companies feel more secure, and thus (at least theoretically) more likely to release movies on a particular format. However, I do agree with the people saying that the movie industry needs to move beyond the business models that they've been using for so long.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

No one is saying its a good thing, we are just saying why its there.

Maybe not you, but some here are saying it's a good thing.

I know why it is there, but I think the HD DVD group made the smarter decision in leaving it out. Note however that it could theoretically be introduced in the future... and that scares me. Fortunately, we who bought early won't be affected. Those who buy later could get locked into region coding... which would suck royally... for them. (Or at least some of them. I agree that many of them won't care.)

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by Eug 

P.S. It works both ways. Lack of region coding makes some people argue that it may delay some titles for the US. Well, one could just as easily argue (are more justifiably so) that lack of region coding brings some titles to our homes quicker.

I've had Harry Potter on HD DVD for months, because of the lack of region coding, even though it hasn't actually been released here. Similarly, I've had La Haine on HD DVD for months, because of the lack of region coding. I'd be surprised if gets released here before 2009.

Thats the point. Once they get a distributor for your region that's a lost sale right there.

Personally, I think with both HD-DVD and Blu Ray, there would be no need for it as you have room to put all the regional content on one disc and just let people import till they drop if they want it. You can do with the PS3 games, the motion picture companies might want to try that with a few films to at least test the market at least.

[*TL]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I can't believe anyone is arguing that region coding is actually a good thing. That is the number 1 thing I hate the most about DVD, and even more than CSS.

I don't think anyone has argued it's a "good thing"; it's being argued that it's a rational response for a distributor to make. It's also being argued that an unintentional consequence to a lack of region coding is that in some cases there will be less product on store shelves.

(Indeed, based on what New Line is doing here, it's possible region coding has lead to MORE choice on DVD for the savvy enthusiast. Distributors can put out more discs with reasonable assurances the he doesn't have to compete with other distributors. The enthusiast with an extra $75 for a region-free player can take advantage of this.)

[pooka]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I can't believe anyone is arguing that region coding is actually a good thing. That is the number 1 thing I hate the most about DVD, and even more than CSS.

Sure, the New Line release date discrepancy is not ideal, but I'd rather deal with that than region coding any day.

It actually helps me make more sense of how anyone could find BluRay the lesser evil in this format war. Some people prefer structure in their lives I guess. Guidance. And BluRay offers greater protection for content producers which in turn helps people feel better... knowing that these companies investments are protected and that they will continue to supply them and their families with the content they've come to love.

I can't fault people for that....

[starman]

Who's saying it's a good thing? We're saying why it exists. The only reference to it being "good" is the point *TL brought up where local distributors would want you to buy the product from them and not outside. Other than that, I'm not thrilled with it either, I'm just stating the reasons behind its existence.

I paid around $300 (if not more) for a Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children box set from Japan. If I didn't have a region-free HTPC, I'd be screwed.

Of course, inside there is a region-coded version of FF:VII for Japan only

Next people will be saying that everything should be in English

[Eug]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

Thats the point. Once they get a distributor for your region that's a lost sale right there.

Exactly, which is why they would be better off timing these movies disc releases better worldwide.

Fortunately (from your point of view) for some of them, the biggest barrier to buying overseas releases remains to a certain extent: Cost and the hassle factor.

Originally Posted by starman 

Next people will be saying that everything should be in English

Actually, since you mention it... I applaud the overseas distributors who put English subtitles on their HD DVD releases. They gain sales from people like me.

P.S. So it seems most of you (although not all of you) agree that region coding sucks. I'm just surprised so many are so quick to defend it even though you agree it sucks. I have ALWAYS ABSOLUTELY HATED REGION CODING and much, much more than DRM.

I'm just glad that region coding is no longer an issue on DVD for me (since I have region free players), and the DVD Forum was smart enough to leave it out of HD DVD players right from Day 1.

[*TL]

Originally Posted by Eug 

So it seems most of you (although not all of you) agree that region coding sucks. I'm just surprised so many are so quick to defend it even though you agree it sucks.

Again, understanding and acknowledging the rationale != defending.

Actually, given that it's one of the most benign anticompetitive measures ever created, legally circumvented with zero extra expense, I've never been able to get too worked up about it. And given that HD could still implement region coding down the road and BD has only sporadically used it, why are we going around in circles about it.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

New Line to delay HD DVD release, due to lack of region coding - Engadget HD

[Eug]

So, the more I read about TL51 GB, the more I believe that some players might have some problem with it.

Insiders are saying that it does indeed work on all models of HD DVD players. However, they also say that while initial testing has been good, they're not willing to say just yet it will translate into the real world for 1st gen players. ie. It works on 1st gen, 2nd gen, and 3rd gen players, but the 1st gen players probably are more picky.

Furthermore, several of the insiders are trying to play down the importance of TL51 (which I think they should because DL30 is fine for the vast majority of releases), which again suggests to me that its implementation so far isn't 100% perfect.

The above scenario kind of reminds me of DVD-R in the early days. DVD-R did in fact work on most players, but some were much better than others with DVD-R, and the quality of the burn and the media made a big difference. Whereas nowadays, most players work fine with even relatively cheap media.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

New Line to delay HD DVD release, due to lack of region coding - Engadget HD

Uh... We've been discussing this for quite some time now...

[*TL]

Everybody pack up and go home? Or just waiting for someone to say something inflammatory?

[jokell82]

Well Fox just announced that two of its titles scheduled for release in October would be delayed. Color me shocked. I'm wondering if Day After Tomorrow will get delayed too...

[*TL]

Independent distributors confirm that format war—and Paramount decision—is keeping them out of hi-def formats (pgs. 1 & 21):

The high-def decision seemed so easy for Topics Entertainment.

[T]he independent was convinced Blu-ray would be the best format for its scenic "Over America" and "Over California" titles.

But then Paramount and DreamWorks … dropped their support of Blu-ray, going exclusively with HD DVD.

"We had a meeting set with Sony DADC the day after the Paramount news was released …. Sony was coming by to finalize the agreement with us, [but] due to the Paramount news we never saw the agreement, as we backed out right away."

….

"I'm 99% sure we're going to go with Blu-ray…. [but] It's very risky for us because if we put up the money to do this and the other format wins, then we basically just blew a good amount of money."

Paramount's move reminded independents such as Topics that this is still very much a studio war, and gave them less incentive to pick a side.

….

Larry Cohen, principal of Westlake Entertainment said: "The longer the format wars continue, the harder it is for consumers to know which way to go. It's unfortunate that one clear-cut standard has not yet materialized."

….

Allumination Filmworks CEO Cheryl Freeman said her company will make a decision [to go hi-def] "based on consumer and retailer demand."

"We do believe that [the Paramount decision] will prolong the format war," she said.

[jokell82]

****! I was so looking forward to none of those movies!

[goMac]

I don't understand why the Bluray camp is whining about this. The HD-DVD camp was perfectly willing to integrate the formats and the Bluray camp wouldn't go for it. God forbid they allow iHD on their precious Bluray discs.

[angelmb]

Originally Posted by goMac 

I don't understand why the Bluray camp is whining about this.

While I don't care at all about who is going to win High-Definition wars, I suspect than William Wrigley Jr. wasn't mad at all when he stated When two men in business always agree, one of them is unnecessary.

BTW, I think 'blu-ray/hd-dvd… who is whining? would fit better as thread title

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

BTW, I think 'blu-ray/hd-dvd… who is whining? would fit better as thread title

And the answer of course is: both.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Uh... We've been discussing this for quite some time now...

Soooooooory. This thread is a bore so I am not quite up to speed if the same circular argument has popped up in the past 8 pages.

[PaperNotes]

So far this month Amazon sales have Blu-ray on top 20 out of 21 days. Something strange happened to HD-DVD sales. They were steadily dropping for almost three weeks and have now climbed back up a little.

[starman]

Heroes

[Eug]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

So far this month Amazon sales have Blu-ray on top 20 out of 21 days. Something strange happened to HD-DVD sales. They were steadily dropping for almost three weeks and have now climbed back up a little.

Originally Posted by starman 

Heroes

Heroes before, and then sales slowly dropped after its release (although Heroes remains in the top 10).

It's gone back up now because of Transformers, which is currently #1 overall.

It's of note though that 300 is doing better on HD DVD than Blu-ray at the moment for some reason. (300 is #1 on Blu-ray right now at 60, while it's #2 on HD DVD at 51. Transformers is #1 on HD DVD at 24.)

P.S. A few people are starting to receive their 3rd generation standalone HD DVD players now, but I'm not sure of the significance at this point with Amazon numbers, since it's just a trickle of 3rd gen players right now. The target street date for the players is supposedly a week or two from now.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Soooooooory. This thread is a bore so I am not quite up to speed if the same circular argument has popped up in the past 8 pages.

Sometimes it pays to read the last few posts in the thread before posting. I mean the ENTIRE last page before your post was about this.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by Eug 

It's of note though that 300 is doing better on HD DVD than Blu-ray at the moment for some reason.
.

There's nothing to note. The Blu-ray version was ahead of the HD-DVD version for weeks (even grabbing number 1 spot for a while). It's about time sales of that title slowed down for that format. The irony is that you of all people should know that. You should be asking why sales of HD-DVD titles have slumped so much this month even after all the cheap players, price drops and bundles.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

There's nothing to note. The Blu-ray version was ahead of the HD-DVD version for weeks (even grabbing number 1 spot for a while). It's about time sales of that title slowed down for that format. The irony is that you of all people should know that. You should be asking why sales of HD-DVD titles have slumped so much this month even after all the cheap players, price drops and bundles.

Hmmm...

All I said is that for some reason the HD DVD version is ahead, nothing more. (That surprised me, given the history and its higher cost.) However, suddenly you get all defensive. Par for the course I guess.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Hmmm...

All I said is that for some reason the HD DVD version is ahead, nothing more. (That surprised me, given the history and its higher cost.) However, suddenly you get all defensive.

It's not being defensive. How can I defend something I do not have...I do not own a Blu-ray or HD-DVD and do not intend to until there are affordable rewritable drives that write at high speed (HD-DVD's write speeds will probably never catch up to Blu-ray).

I corrected your rather bland and purposely lop-sided "observation" (if it can be called that). You know very well once a title for one format sells strongly for a while that it will slow down drastically to make way for other titles on the same format. That's what has happened with the Blu-ray version. The HD-DVD version appears higher on the chart only because the format sells less discs and thus a title's sales are not exhausted as fast.

Take the total number of sales so far of 300 on Blu-ray and HD-DVD and then say something.

[Kevin]

As a first time poster, long time reader, I see HD-DVD winning this.

I've been looking through all the info, and then looking at trends in history.

I have no bias really either way. I can see Blueray going the way of teh Betamax.

[Eug]

So Heroes truly is awesome. Very addicting show. I'm told the finale is kind of lame, but I haven't gotten there yet. And even if the finale is a bit of a let down, I'll be OK with that, since the rest of the show is so great.

BTW, I was surprised to learn that Masi Oka, the guy who stars as Hiro Nakamura, is actually a special effects coder who works for Industrial Light and Magic. He worked on several Star Wars movies and Terminator 3, etc.



---

I wasn't planning on getting Transformers, but with the Canadian dollar at par, I may just have to order it from Amazon.com, esp. since I get that 10% discount. I'm still mulling it over. It'd be a blind buy, and the reviews are at best mixed, but people like analogue SPRINKLES think it's awesome.

---

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

I corrected your rather bland and purposely lop-sided "observation" (if it can be called that). You know very well once a title for one format sells strongly for a while that it will slow down drastically to make way for other titles on the same format. That's what has happened with the Blu-ray version. The HD-DVD version appears higher on the chart only because the format sells less discs and thus a title's sales are not exhausted as fast.

That, of course, make no sense at all.

[Kevin]

The only people I see pushing for blue-ray, are people that have a zealous attachment to sony, or a product of theirs, and those that would benefit from such push.

Just like back in the 80s during the beta-max days. That also took awhile before anyone knew which format to adopt. Then VCR players came out in large numbers and cheaper than Beta machines. VCR tapes were also CHEAPER to buy.

Therefore the consumer ran toward the VCR, and the beta became obsolete.

I see this happening RIGHT NOW with HD-DVD vs BlueRay.

You'd think Sony would learn.

[- - e r i k - -]

Sony learning? Heh. They have the occasional success with breakout products like the Walkman and the Playstation and they think they can reuse the same formula over and over for those. What's really their bread and butter though is audiovisual products. TVs, stereos etc.

[Kevin]

Yeah they missed out.. Apple has become the new seller of today's "walkman"

You know how no matter what brand of tape player you owned, people called them walkman's. I hear the same about mp3 players. Everyone calling them ipods. Apple or not.

When Steve said he wanted to be the next "sony" he wasn't kidding. I just hope he doesn't make the same mistakes..

[Eug]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Sony learning? Heh. They have the occasional success with breakout products like the Walkman and the Playstation and they think they can reuse the same formula over and over for those. What's really their bread and butter though is audiovisual products. TVs, stereos etc.

Occasional success? While I don't subscribe to Sony's marketing about Blu-ray, I most definitely don't think we can call the Walkman and the Playstation (and PS2), along with everything else they've done well with as "occasional success".

[icruise]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

As a first time poster, long time reader, I see HD-DVD winning this.

I've been looking through all the info, and then looking at trends in history.

I have no bias really either way. I can see Blueray going the way of teh Betamax.

Care to explain why?

Originally Posted by Eug 

I wasn't planning on getting Transformers, but with the Canadian dollar at par, I may just have to order it from Amazon.com, esp. since I get that 10% discount. I'm still mulling it over. It'd be a blind buy, and the reviews are at best mixed, but people like analogue SPRINKLES think it's awesome.

It depends to some degree on how much you are attached to the original cartoon. The new designs for the robots are sometimes a little off-putting at first (particularly Megatron). But once I got used to them, I found that I liked the new designs and I thought the movie overall was surprisingly well done. There's some amazing action there, and Shia LaBeouf did a great job in the lead IMHO.

[Kevin]

The cool thing about the walk-man was, it didn't really take a proprietary tape format to play tapes in.

Anyone could make tapes that played in it. You could even play recorded tapes in it. Mix tapes were a big hit in the 80s when the cassette tape boom started. And it has extended now to the CD and mp3 realm.

I remember dreaming about being able to burn my own CD mixes myself for cheap back when they first came out. Now it's something I take for granted.

Much like cassette tapes were back in the 80s.

I think as solid state storage devices start holding larger amounts of information at a smaller space high quality music like mp3 format will take over. I think the mp3 and mp4 compressions are just now used because of space limitations we have to deal with now. Once that is taken care of, it will go back to lossless. Some already have started this trend.

IMHO of course.

I wont even go into how much EASIER it is to even MAKE your own music now. I remember in the 80s when I had my first 4 track recorder.. It was a Fostex. Still have it. I thought I really had something then.

But if you own a computer now a days, you can spend less than a grand and get a decent studio setup for your own personal enjoyment. And tons better quality than most 4 track recordings are. Though some of the best recordings were done on a 4-track..

It's just obnoxious at the technology that is being taken for granted now a days.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by icruise 

Care to explain why?



It depends to some degree on how much you are attached to the original cartoon. The new designs for the robots are sometimes a little off-putting at first (particularly Megatron). But once I got used to them, I found that I liked the new designs and I thought the movie overall was surprisingly well done. There's some amazing action there, and Shia LaBeouf did a great job in the lead IMHO.

Already did.

Just like back in the 80s during the beta-max days. That also took awhile before anyone knew which format to adopt. Then VCR players came out in large numbers and cheaper than Beta machines. VCR tapes were also CHEAPER to buy.

Therefore the consumer ran toward the VCR, and the beta became obsolete.

I see this happening RIGHT NOW with HD-DVD vs BlueRay.

I see/hear/ about more people buying HD-DVD over Blueray. Cost is mostly the reason. HD-DVD is cheaper. Just like I did when people bought VHS over Betamax back in the day. It's history repeating itself. When I say "hear/see" I mean IRL. Not on internet forums where people that are really INTO IT would argue about such things. These people don't make up the major demographic of those that would end up making such decision. The average consumer usually doesn't argue about format wars on the interweb. (I would consider myself slightly ABOVE average as a electronic consumer. Nowhere near the level of most people talking here. Nor do I have any emotional or whatever attachment to either "side" )

This is just IMHO of course. I could be wrong and Blueray be the standard.

But I don't see it happening. My bet is on HD-DVD.

Having said that, I don't own or plan on investing in either format or player anytime soon.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Already did.

You said:

The only people I see pushing for blue-ray, are people that have a zealous attachment to sony, or a product of theirs, and those that would benefit from such push.

So your position is apparently that Blu-ray supporters are all Sony fanboys, and that's why BR will fail? I was hoping there was more to it.

If people "in real life" are actually buying HD-DVD, why are BR's sales so much higher?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by icruise 

So your position is apparently that Blu-ray supporters are all Sony fanboys, and that's why BR will fail? I was hoping there was more to it.

Well there was more to it than the one part you just quoted you know.... . The part that explains why I felt the way I did.. the part I quoted in my reply to you.

In my reply I even expanded my explanation. Go back and take it a gander.

It's all about the cost of running the system. It doesn't mean that HD-DVD is better, or that BlueRay stinks.

It's the same reason there are more Windows users than Mac users.

The only difference is, in this arena there NEEDS to be ONE standard. IMHO

I'd go for a more open standard over a more closed one as well.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Occasional success? While I don't subscribe to Sony's marketing about Blu-ray, I most definitely don't think we can call the Walkman and the Playstation (and PS2), along with everything else they've done well with as "occasional success".

In the big picture of Sony's vast and wide product line, historically yes, those are occasional successes. Much like the Xbox and Office are for Microsoft.

[Kevin]

I would call Windows a success too.....

No matter how it got to be so, or the quality of it.

The XBox while a "success" actually lost MS money. But of course when you have a monopoly elsewhere you can take a hit.

A company that JUST made gaming machines could have never put out a Xbox like gaming system for the price MS sells them and really lived off the profit.

It's the same reason they can put out OSs like Vista. Vista really should have been Coplanded. IMHO.

But MS had enough money and time to throw at it. People are still buying XP machines.

Average computer users aren't concerned with OS versions. They usually use the OS their computer comes with till they buy a new computer.

Much like average buyers of disk players don't care what format it is... but will buy on price...

And the average buyer is usually the one that decides on what is embraced, and what isn't. (The cheaper you can make it, while still having similar qualities as the competing brand, the better the product will do)

That is why Windows machines have always outsold Macs. You simply can get them for cheaper, and the average user doesn't care HOW they get on the net.

[- - e r i k - -]

Windows goes without saying of course - regardless of it's objective qualities. Where Microsoft succeeds in quality is actually their hardware. My Intellimouse is going strong on it's seventh year now.

Thing is, consumers have gained nothing from this platform war. There was a need for a high-def intermediate format before we can get reliable online delivery of it, but it's already passing while this stupid war is on.

For the record, I used to be on the "BluRay-side". Now I am on neither, because it's just too frickin' late to be useful. A format needs at least a half-decade run. I still buy DVDs occasionally, and I suspect the general public will for many years.

And since neither high-def format has got a foothold so far, I suspect we'll be far into the digital content delivery phase of high-def before either does.

Neither HD-DVD or Blu-Ray will become more than a footnote in history. Like DAT or MiniDisc before them (or Zip or MO-disks in the computer industry) - intermediate formats that never got out of a niche stage.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Eug 

So Heroes truly is awesome. Very addicting show. I'm told the finale is kind of lame, but I haven't gotten there yet. And even if the finale is a bit of a let down, I'll be OK with that, since the rest of the show is so great.

I wont ruin it, but the finale wasn't anything like it was built up to be. But overall every episode is pretty awesome.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

For the record, I used to be on the "BluRay-side". Now I am on neither, because it's just too frickin' late to be useful. A format needs at least a half-decade run. I still buy DVDs occasionally, and I suspect the general public will for many years.

And since neither high-def format has got a foothold so far, I suspect we'll be far into the digital content delivery phase of high-def before either does.

Neither HD-DVD or Blu-Ray will become more than a footnote in history. Like DAT or MiniDisc before them (or Zip or MO-disks in the computer industry) - intermediate formats that never got out of a niche stage.

You may just be onto something. And that is another reason why I've not invested in either one.

Remember when DAT was the big talk?

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Remember when DAT was the big talk?

Not in the slightest.

And I'm not sure how anyone could think people would go back to linear magnetic storage after switching to optical discs. I've used them in the past (when I worked as an audio engineer), but as a format they were never going to make it into consumers' hands.

[mitchell_pgh]

I guess I'm just realizing that we're just going to have to buy dual-format players. Which is unfortunate.

[jokell82]

It's too early to know that for sure. I think if Warner ends up picking a side (either side), it'll be the beginning of the end for the format they don't choose.

[Brien]

Naw. I think if Warner went HD DVD, Fox and Sony wouldn't go neutral. Disney might, but if that's the case it'll be dual-format.

Now if Warner went BD, I don't know. HD was doing okay with just Universal, so it's quite possible that no matter what happens they're both here to stay.

[jokell82]

If Warner goes HD DVD Disney would probably be first to go, and Fox would follow eventually. They may not want to, but they would. Sony would hold out until the end, but ultimately they'd have no choice unless they only wanted to sell movies to PS3 owners...

If Warner goes BD I think Paramount/Dreamworks would switch sides very fast. You'd be left with Universal against everyone, and that can only last for so long. Remember HD didn't only have Universal for a while - Warner was very much HD DVD leaning (Batman Begins, V for Vendetta, Matrix, etc) so that made up for some of the BD exclusives. But Universal can't win this one on their own.

Of course, that is only if Warner does choose a side. If they don't and they stay neutral, I think we'll never have a clear winner and dual-format players will become the standard.

(Again, all my opinion)

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

The only difference is, in this arena there NEEDS to be ONE standard. IMHO

I disagree. While early adopters will get knicked, there will be more and more dual format players available, and at cheaper prices. I wouldn't be surprised if a year from now everything was a dual format player, leaving format selection as just a matter of personal preference to the movie companies. The only loss to either side really is that PS3 owners would be in kind of an awkward spot.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by goMac 

The only loss to either side really is that PS3 owners would be in kind of an awkward spot.

How would they be in any more awkward of a spot than 360 owners with the HD-DVD drive?

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by icruise 

How would they be in any more awkward of a spot than 360 owners with the HD-DVD drive?

Because Microsoft has said they'll make a BD drive for the 360 if it becomes the standard. Can't really do that with the PS3.

[icruise]

Why couldn't you? But in any case, I imagine that by the time it would become an issue, the cost of players would be so low that this would be a non-issue.