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SubGeniux · May 24, 2003, 04:59 AM

Here's an interesting article I just read n a windows/X comparrison

http://www.druware.com/products/articles/mac_win/

moreno · May 24, 2003, 10:58 AM

As someone pointed out above with the pic ofthe start menu, that takes a bit of wrabglnig to get it to lok like that, I used to spend ages sortig out subfolders into workable groups for my applications, and all that, but, that is also a strength in a way, ... XP machine, it's a painful experience wathcing her never sort out her menus, she's an old hand at it and teaches office and internet design at a college but is not one of those customising types,

I hope that you don't have been using the connectix virtual girlfriend...

The dock in X is adream for me, being able to drag n drop files onto app that aren't the original file owenrs is such a time savere, I can't say big a savign it makes, I remember on windows and OS9 having to move my apps out the way, then have drag the file onto the app alias n the desktop, for me personally , my workflow on X has just been enhanced by 10.

you can create icon bars on windows too... like a dock.....

hudson1 · May 24, 2003, 01:02 PM

There really are things in Windows that ought to "just work" but don't and finding the causes can be absolutely maddening.

Example: My IT group "upgraded" my ThinkPad to Win 2K last year. With that, the dang thing could not be shut off or even put to sleep as long as the removable CD-ROM drive was in the laptop. The only workaround was to inappropriately push the power button for five seconds or more. Of course at the next startup it would go through all of its gymnastics because it was improperly shut down. The problem never occurred before Win 2K was installed and never occurred when the LS-120 drive was in the laptop instead of the CD-ROM drive.

The IT people tried installing new drivers multiple times and then reinstalled the entire OS twice. Nothing made a difference. BTW, it was not a bad drive either as a replacement CD-ROM drive did the same thing.

They finally gave up and bought a new laptop, relegating the ThinkPad to an emergency spare.

In all of the Macs I've owned or used over 15 years, I never had a problem for which a solution couldn't be found.

moki · 02:07 PM

Originally posted by Brass:
X is NOT hacker free!!! Just being based on Unix opens it up to the world of unix hackers - believe me, they can do a lot more to a remote computer than many people would believe.

This is true. For instance, my girlfriend had a MacroMedia Director project file that she spent all week working on for her class that became corrupted (unfortunately, Director tends to do this on all platforms from time to time). It was due in 16 hours.

I lead her through turning on remote logins and giving me her IP address, then ssh'd in, used the 'strings' command to extract all of the text from the project (which included the Lingo programming that had taken her the most time), then used the 'open' command to open the file for her in TextEdit.app

Saved her many, many hours of painfully redoing the lingo coding in her project. The power the *nix layer of MacOS X offers can be used for good, too.

Amorya · May 24, 2003, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by moreno:
you can create icon bars on windows too... like a dock.....

No, nothing like a dock.

The XP bars still split running programs and programs to be launched... the running ones still go in the taskbar. You can't drag items onto the taskbar buttons (the workaround is to wait a couple of seconds for the window to pop up, then drag them into the window, but that still doesn't do exactly the same thing).

Amorya

kmkkid · 03:13 PM

Just to help ignorant mac users understand the new XP startpanel. I thought I'd post a pic and explain it's parts and uses.

XP start panel:

Orange: The Users picture and name

This shows what user is currently logged on, and also presents a picture assigned to the account. When clicked it brings up the XP user accounts dialog, which allows you to change many options regarding users and user security (create passwords, make new accounts, rename accounts, change permissions etc.).

Red: User assigned shortcuts

This area displays shortcuts to whatever the user specifies. you can drag and drop shortcuts here, or you can right click on a file and select 'pin to start menu'. Useful for your favorite shortcuts.

Green: Frequently used programs

This area lists your most frequently used programs. You can delete them if you wish, and also define how many shortcuts to allow in this space. I find this feature very useful.

Blue: All programs Menu.

When clicked (or hovered, depending on pref's) this will open the programs menu, which lists all your programs. Which depending on the user can be awful messy, or neat and organized.

Yellow: System defined shortcuts.

This area lists shortcuts that the system has defined for the start menu. You can pick or choose what to display here, or how to display them (cascading menu's or just a link) Options include : my computer, my documents, my music, my pictures, my network places, recently used, favorites, control panel, printers and faxes, network connections, run, search, and administrative tools. These links are usually really useful because they are all important, and within clicking distance

Pink: Shutdown Panel.

This area gives you buttons to shutdown, log off, hibernate etc..

And of course you can change many aspects of the start menu, from within the start menu properties dialog.

I feel the XP start panel is a great feature, and works really well for what it was desinged to do: Give the user his most needed shortcuts and options right there, within one click distance. If you guys dont like the start menu, thats fine, but it is a good design and fits in well with windows. In any event, it's way better than the standard 9x (or classic as it's called in XP) start menu.

Chris

kschulhu · May 24, 2003, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by kmkkid:
Just to help ignorant mac users understand the new XP startpanel. I thought I'd post a pic and explain it's parts and uses.

Oh my!

I understand you wanting to explain the XP Start panel for people, but the problem is that it shouldn't "require" explanation (i.e it should be much more intuitive than it is). Dissecting the Start panel the way you did is just going to scare people even more.

I use XP every day at work... Know what I use most? The Quick Launch menu. I add all apps I use the most there and can get to them in 2 clicks (one to open the menu, one to click the app I need) without adding them to an already huge Start panel, or sifting through a large "All Programs" list. In all honesty, the XP Start panel is trying to be the launch point for too many things in the OS (which is why it's taking up more real-estate than ever before).

--Kschulhu

kmkkid · May 24, 2003, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by kschulhu:
Oh my!

I understand you wanting to explain the XP Start panel for people, but the problem is that it shouldn't "require" explanation (i.e it should be much more intuitive than it is). Dissecting the Start panel the way you did is just going to scare people even more.

I use XP every day at work... Know what I use most? The Quick Launch menu. I add all apps I use the most there and can get to them in 2 clicks (one to open the menu, one to click the app I need) without adding them to an already huge Start panel, or sifting through a large "All Programs" list. In all honesty, the XP Start panel is trying to be the launch point for too many things in the OS (which is why it's taking up more real-estate than ever before).

--Kschulhu

Actually it does need explanation so ignorant people quit saying it sucks (most of which havent even used XP).

The quicklaunch is great, and it is simple. However I'm not going to put more than 5 or 6 links there because then the taskbar gets overly cluttered and starts to look afwful, not to mention task names start to get cut down more and more.

And, I fail to see why how much screen space the panel takes up matters. You only have it open for a few seconds. Wait until the longhorn sidebar, then you can complain about lost screen real-estate

DaedalusDX · May 24, 2003, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by Morenix:
the big problem of X is the target. Mac OS 9 is fast, simple, small, beauty. I can work without virtual memory and work fast on applications like photoshop, ae, etc. Yes, the Mac OS classic foundation is outdated, but, its plain simple and functional to many people, like designers.
Mac OS X is new, with a great future!..but... Apple wants to sell Macs to the normal user. what's what Apple do? Well, unveils a colorfull interface, and iApps to iTrolls (pardon..), creates .Services to explore its users too... (like a monopoly!)
There's no more spirit left in the Mac classic users... and for more marketing that Apple can do; it won't result. This battle has been lost in time (OS X vs XP).

It's snappy?
Time to die...

I disagree... the "spirit" you talk about has simply evolved into something else in Mac OS X. What strikes me today about Mac OS X that is absolutely remarkable in that this is a unix based operating system underneath it all, and with that, a whole new geeky world of tools and services open up for the Mac.

Mac OS X alone has convinced some of my very geeky and UNIX-saavy friends to buy a Powerbook... All the power of unix in a beautiful laptop... and absolutely no hassle to get in on there because Apple has made sure that its smooth... And married it with a more advanced graphics system with a consistent interface than anything in the unix or linux world.... for this type of people, Mac OS X is a true UNIX with an exceptional and accelerated windowing system with absolutely ZERO installation hassle... plus it works on laptops.

Installing BSD or Linux properly is a geek's trial by fire... its tricky, especially on a laptop. On a Mac, however, Apple has already taken care of that, and it just works.

At the SAME time, Apple sells the same operating system to consumers who know nothing about UNIX, and for the most part, NEVER have to interact with the operating system on that level. Instead, the consumer just gets the stability and all the rest. Mac OS X is still easy to use for this type of user... very similar to the experience in Classic Mac OS's... a number of adaptations have to be made of course, but in the end, Mac OS X is simple and straightforward to use.

Mac OS X is something for everyone, and I don't see it as an OS with completely no target audience... instead, Apple aimed to please everyone, and in my opinion, they have succeeded more at that goal than Windows XP, which still has 3 variations for "Home" "Professional" and "Media Center." Instead, there is just one Mac OS X..

JB72 · May 24, 2003, 06:59 PM

and administrative tools. These links are usually really useful because they are all important, and within clicking distance

/agree. You need those handy in Windows because you are constantly accesing the control panel hoping to make something work the way it should in the first place, but never really does.

bracken · May 24, 2003, 07:05 PM

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this site yet, XVSXP.com.

ryju · May 24, 2003, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by bracken:
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this site yet, XVSXP.com.

/avoiding urge to be really mean

it was posted on the first page of this thread. thanks for the tip though. ^_^

bracken · 07:40 PM

Originally posted by ryju:
/avoiding urge to be really mean

it was posted on the first page of this thread. thanks for the tip though. ^_^

Oh, yeah, that sucks. I did a search to see, but no results at the time. Bah.

Thanks for not being mean though, I seriously would've sh*t my pants if I saw mean words on my screen.

kmkkid · May 24, 2003, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by JB72:
/agree. You need those handy in Windows because you are constantly accesing the control panel hoping to make something work the way it should in the first place, but never really does.

Yup, you can even add links to troll.com to it.

Chris

JB72 · May 24, 2003, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by kmkkid:
Yup, you can even add links to troll.com to it.

troll.com

Is that site the design inspiration for the Start Menu? I don't get it.

moreno · 10:41 PM

troll.com

'CAUSE I'M TROLL!

kmkkid · May 24, 2003, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by JB72:
troll.com

Is that site the design inspiration for the Start Menu? I don't get it.

Right over your apparantly non-existant head.

Chris

JB72 · 12:49 AM

Originally posted by kmkkid:
Right over your apparantly non-existant head.

Yes, I apparently got it (we know you love to troll,) and I was being sarcastic. Get that giant Slim Jim out your mouth, wipe the Slurpee off your step Dad's Matrix t-shirt, and go directly to nearest barber, where you will then tell him the secret password; "remove my mullet." This process acts to clear your mind, and I assure you that you'll then be able to continue the conversation with a clarity of cognition you wouldn't have believed possible before. This advice is free of charge. You're welcome, and enjoy the your new found life.

kmkkid · May 25, 2003, 01:58 AM

Originally posted by JB72:
Yes, I apparently got it (we know you love to troll,) and I was being sarcastic. Get that giant Slim Jim out your mouth, wipe the Slurpee off your step Dad's Matrix t-shirt, and go directly to nearest barber, where you will then tell him the secret password; "remove my mullet." This process acts to clear your mind, and I assure you that you'll then be able to continue the conversation with a clarity of cognition you wouldn't have believed possible before. This advice is free of charge. You're welcome, and enjoy the your new found life.

Chris

JB72 · May 25, 2003, 03:34 AM

Originally posted by kmkkid:

Chris

OK, I'm sorry I'm a bit grouchy lately. I happen to be severely irritated by Windows problems on my HTPC right now. I'm afraid I'm needlessly lashing out on this thread. I'm just not a Windows-type person (I've used it since Windows 3.1 btw, and plain DOS before that.) However, I'm glad it's there for things like HTPC, and for people who prefer it. Choice is good.

kmkkid · May 25, 2003, 05:20 AM

Originally posted by JB72:
OK, I'm sorry I'm a bit grouchy lately. I happen to be severely irritated by Windows problems on my HTPC right now. I'm afraid I'm needlessly lashing out on this thread. I'm just not a Windows-type person (I've used it since Windows 3.1 btw, and plain DOS before that.) However, I'm glad it's there for things like HTPC, and for people who prefer it. Choice is good.

I don't prefer windows. I was just trying to show that the start panel is a good idea. If I was truly trolling, I wouldnt have posted anything informative.

Try this program for your PC:

http://www.myhtpc.net

Chris

SubGeniux · May 25, 2003, 05:25 AM

Nah, I know exactly how the start menu works, an old windows user here, and still has to use it, been using it right from the start, pun intended, from 95 to NT to XP, point being, I never actually used it, it was the long road round to get to things, except maybe the run command, I would always plalce shortcuts to folders and apps on tht desktop, can't drag files onto apps in the start menu.

Th evolution of the start menu is obscene, mostly obsolete and a pain, Somehow the Dock in X just seems to be more dynamic and functional than the start menue ever has been, more logical for me. But, that's just me.

The start menu is not a good idea for fast functionailty or easy access to commonly used things, except if you customise, and i remmeber all too painfully having to trawl through folder after to folder to create my own sets of folders for apps, and even then it still doesn't come near to the flexibility of the Dock.

Stratus Fear · May 27, 2003, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by SubGeniux:
Somehow the Dock in X just seems to be more dynamic and functional than the start menue ever has been, more logical for me. But, that's just me.

The Dock is definitely nice. I really like it. Although, it doesn't seem to be too much more than Quick Launch on the Windows taskbar (with a little extended functionality). I use about 20 different programs on an at least weekly basis, if not daily. Putting that many programs on the dock or quick launch just isn't pretty. I still think there needs to be something better than the Apple/Start menu or Quick Launch/Dock.

Nathan Adams · May 27, 2003, 06:48 AM

Apple really needs a catchy song for the dock.
we all know the real reason why the start menu has been such a success for MS was because they liscenced "start me up" by the rolling stones....

SubGeniux · May 27, 2003, 09:34 AM

how about, "Sitting by the dock of the bay' by otis reddin. great track.

Em, the dock, I think it's more useful than just an app laucher, I get to drag files onto docked apps to open them in it, such as an html file in textedit or a different browser, and especially graphics files. Also, the dock gives pretty good applicaion feedback, like in Proteus and Mail, photoshop filters and so on.

bewebste · May 27, 2003, 11:11 AM

Hickory dickory dock
The mouse clicked on the clock
The clock struck eight
The dock is great!
Hickory dickory dock

clarkgoble · May 27, 2003, 04:27 PM

The trick for using the dock as a "quick start" is to just put the applications you *always* use there. Then create a folder with aliases to your "secondary" apps and then drag that to the dock. It'll appear in the document portion of the dock and allow quick access to them.

The reason I think the Dock isn't quite the same as the Windows task bar is that it is more document-centric. In a sense you don't need to know whether an application is running or not. It still needs work I admit. In particular the document part (on the far right) doesn't work well at all.

However overall I much prefer the Mac dock over the task bar.

Lew · May 27, 2003, 08:28 PM

I pretty much only use the dock as an application switcher now. I have it pinned to the bottom-right and use FruitMenu as an app launcher.

kndonlee · May 27, 2003, 10:21 PM

I use launchbar!!!!!!! BESSSTTT program out there!!!!!!

And liteswitch for application switching!!!!

allap · May 27, 2003, 10:51 PM

I have to agree with kndonlee, launchbar is definately the way to go!

Adam Betts · May 27, 2003, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by kndonlee:
I use launchbar!!!!!!! BESSSTTT program out there!!!!!!

Beware, if Windows users hear you, they'll try to clone it and claim it that they invented it.

g. olson · May 27, 2003, 11:45 PM

I use XP on my work machine. Realizing that these things are a matter of taste, I have to say that is really is butt-ugly compared to OSX!

drmcnutt · May 28, 2003, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by kndonlee:
I use launchbar!!!!!!! BESSSTTT program out there!!!!!!

And liteswitch for application switching!!!!

This is rather funny logic in this portion of the thread. The DOCK is better than the "Start" menu in XP, but it's much better to pay $39 for another program to do it the best in OSX. HMMM.

DRM

klinux · May 28, 2003, 04:28 AM

Originally posted by SubGeniux:
Somehow the Dock in X just seems to be more dynamic and functional than the start menue ever has been, more logical for me. But, that's just me.

No offense but I think it is just personal since you are used to the Dock. Afterall, if it was so intuitive, there would not be so many other applications out there that provides add-on functionality to provide "missing" functions of the Dock.

SubGeniux · May 28, 2003, 06:17 AM

Not reall, I'm more used to using the start menu, ever since it first made its dazzling appearance in win95, it was a change, but like the dock, all things have addons, I would never use the start menu the way it is when you install win. IFor me though, comparing just the dock to the start thingy, the dock is much more useful, true, addons are there, ut after trying them, sme are good, some daft, but dont use any anymore, launchbar is good for opening rarely used apps, maybe files too. But, i thin kthe dock is so simple in desing and execution, far far better than the start me up get me nowhere today menu.

noisefloor · May 29, 2003, 11:21 AM

One of the software apps I rely on just isn't consistently stable on XP.

SubGeniux · May 29, 2003, 01:42 PM

I'm in a smilar but different kind of spot too, I use XSI on the PC which is just the best 3D app on the market, no X version available and probably never will be, but what an application, never lets me down and the GUI is just beyond anything else I've ever used.

Michael_Jackson · May 29, 2003, 02:19 PM

i like internet

kovacs · May 29, 2003, 02:23 PM

The windows start button need explanation ? Yeah Duh ? You try to explain to your grand mother that she has to push " start" to shut down her computer...

IMHO this is one of the worst GUI designs ever...

klinux · May 29, 2003, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by kovacs:
You try to explain to your grand mother that she has to push " start" to shut down her computer...

Apparently your grand mother is not as smart as mine.

King Bob On The Cob · May 29, 2003, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by drmcnutt:
This is rather funny logic in this portion of the thread. The DOCK is better than the "Start" menu in XP, but it's much better to pay $39 for another program to do it the best in OSX. HMMM.

DRM

Start<Dock<Launchbar

LaunchBar is god. Bow before it (it's 19.97 anyways. You don't need the business liscense) Neither of the default launchers are good in either OS. Thats why people like Objective Development can make things like Launchbar.

mikemako · May 29, 2003, 06:30 PM

I think the applications that have been developed to add to or replace the Dock have not been due to any incompetence of the Dock, but influenced by people that were used to the classic Mac OS interface, or the Windows interface, and had trouble with the learning curve associated with the Dock.

For someone who has not used Windows or Mac OS, the Windows XP Start menu is initially easier to understand, but the Dock is more intuitive and proves to be a much more useful tool over time than the Start Menu/Task Bar.

More evidence that the Dock is a better UI decision is that Microsoft is attempting to re-create it in the next version of Longhorn, it seems that Microsoft is moving away from the classic Start Menu functionality, and toward the more multi-functional concept of the Mac OS Dock.

kmkkid · May 29, 2003, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by mikemako:
I think the applications that have been developed to add to or replace the Dock have not been due to any incompetence of the Dock, but influenced by people that were used to the classic Mac OS interface, or the Windows interface, and had trouble with the learning curve associated with the Dock.

For someone who has not used Windows or Mac OS, the Windows XP Start menu is initially easier to understand, but the Dock is more intuitive and proves to be a much more useful tool over time than the Start Menu/Task Bar.

More evidence that the Dock is a better UI decision is that Microsoft is attempting to re-create it in the next version of Longhorn, it seems that Microsoft is moving away from the classic Start Menu functionality, and toward the more multi-functional concept of the Mac OS Dock.

THAT IS NOT A DOCK!

It's a friggen sidebar!

Honestly, where do you people see the longhorn sidebar in any way resembling the dock? It's basically just a 3 leveled toolbar with plugins.

I have heard so many people here say "oh they are copying the dock" when that isnt the case at all.

Chris

sandsl · May 29, 2003, 07:41 PM

Mac OS X will always be my winner

Brass · May 29, 2003, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by kmkkid:
THAT IS NOT A DOCK!

It's a friggen sidebar!

Honestly, where do you people see the longhorn sidebar in any way resembling the dock? It's basically just a 3 leveled toolbar with plugins.

I have heard so many people here say "oh they are copying the dock" when that isnt the case at all.

Chris

I'm not familiar with the side bar in Longhorn. Does it do anything that the dock does? You haven't actually explained why it is not like the dock, except that it's got a different name, "sidebar", and paradigm, "toolbar".

yoyoman · May 29, 2003, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by Brass:
I'm not familiar with the side bar in Longhorn. Does it do anything that the dock does? You haven't actually explained why it is not like the dock, except that it's got a different name, "sidebar", and paradigm, "toolbar".

Long horn is just a pos. I used it at my school as a demo. IT sux. Its just as bad as xp. Just graphix intense. to look cool but not really. remember only demoed the alpha.

I go to a computer college so we have a agreement with M$ with stuff like that.

kmkkid · May 30, 2003, 05:46 AM

Originally posted by Brass:
I'm not familiar with the side bar in Longhorn. Does it do anything that the dock does? You haven't actually explained why it is not like the dock, except that it's got a different name, "sidebar", and paradigm, "toolbar".

Well of course it holds shortcuts, as does every other launcher in every other OS

But other than that, it's not anything like the dock. Toolbars have been in Windows for a long time, and the sidebar is just a 'special' toolbar. It act's nothing like the dock in the way it functions, and it doesnt act as a 'taskbar' like the dock and taskbar do. The sidebar is basically just a waste of space, because you still need the taskbar.

Chris

starman · May 30, 2003, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by g. olson:
I use XP on my work machine. Realizing that these things are a matter of taste, I have to say that is really is butt-ugly compared to OSX!

You should seriously check out the forums on neowin.net to see what kind of beautiful things you can do with Windows XP.

Mike

starman · May 30, 2003, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by yoyoman:
Long horn is just a pos. I used it at my school as a demo. IT sux. Its just as bad as xp. Just graphix intense. to look cool but not really. remember only demoed the alpha.

I go to a computer college so we have a agreement with M$ with stuff like that.

Yeah, I played with Rhapsody and it sucked too

.

Mike

JB72 · May 30, 2003, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by starman:
You should seriously check out the forums on neowin.net to see what kind of beautiful things you can do with Windows XP.

I'l have to try that. I've been trying to knock the fugly out of my Win machine but I haven't had much success.

- - -

Windows choking on Mac OS X dust?