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Xtopolop · Jun 22, 2002, 05:14 AM

WOOO!!!! Korea is the first Asian team to advance to the final four in world cup history!!

DAEEEE HANNNN MEEN GOOK!!
DAEEEE HANNNN MEEN GOOK!!

[Edit]
Now that I'm sane enough to post something coherent...

Korea wins in penalty kicks after a 0-0 tie all through double over-time. This is the second match in a row for both teams to go to over-time. Lee blocked the fourth PK from Spain, giving them the edge. I was impressed with Spain's ability to keep up with the Koreans in terms of pure endurance, seeing as how Korea's other victories have all come more or less in the last 15 minutes of regulation, or over-time.

[ 06-22-2002, 05:23 AM: Message edited by: Xtopolop ]

oeyvind · Jun 22, 2002, 05:23 AM

<img src="http://www.oeyvind.org/misc/export/daehan.png" alt=" - " />

Congratulations!

Xtopolop · Jun 22, 2002, 05:27 AM

Thanks!

And a great quote from one of the ESPN2 announcers... "If the referee is right, then the referee is right. If the referee is wrong, then the referee is right." This was from the England/Brazil game. heh.

theolein · Jun 22, 2002, 06:18 AM

I wonder how much the Ref was paid for his performance in this one? F**king joke of a game. Seems like Korea can sit at the side lines and still win.

[ 06-22-2002, 06:19 AM: Message edited by: theolein ]

Xtopolop · Jun 22, 2002, 07:16 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by theolein:
I wonder how much the Ref was paid for his performance in this one? F**king joke of a game. Seems like Korea can sit at the side lines and still win.<hr /></blockquote>Wow, there's already an article on wc-soccer.com, bitching about the refs. I believe the same thing happened immediately after one of the Laker games. This sort of thing happens all the time, for any sporting event. Overall the refs for the World Cup haven't been spectacular, and yes, I can see your point when you say the Koreans are being favored, but you are also discounting their stamina which has proven to be a key part of their success. A goal was called back because the whistle had already been blown, but what I think you are referring to is the play where Morientes (?) was driving up the right side and actually kept the ball in bounds while the linesman called a goal kick. This was a close call, but on the replay it was clear that the ball was kept in bounds. Incredibly close calls fall about half and half, but the losing side always points them out. Also... see my post above <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

theolein · Jun 22, 2002, 08:23 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Xtopolop:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by theolein:
I wonder how much the Ref was paid for his performance in this one? F**king joke of a game. Seems like Korea can sit at the side lines and still win.<hr /></blockquote>Wow, there's already an article on wc-soccer.com, bitching about the refs. I believe the same thing happened immediately after one of the Laker games. This sort of thing happens all the time, for any sporting event. Overall the refs for the World Cup haven't been spectacular, and yes, I can see your point when you say the Koreans are being favored, but you are also discounting their stamina which has proven to be a key part of their success. A goal was called back because the whistle had already been blown, but what I think you are referring to is the play where Morientes (?) was driving up the right side and actually kept the ball in bounds while the linesman called a goal kick. This was a close call, but on the replay it was clear that the ball was kept in bounds. Incredibly close calls fall about half and half, but the losing side always points them out. Also... see my post above <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .<hr /></blockquote>That's bullsh-it! Jesus F**king Christ, in two consecutive games between Italy and South Korea and Spain and South Korea goals have been disallowed only to have been shown in television afterwards to have been perfectly legal goals. Christ! Spain would have scored twice today. Today FIFA officially admitted that the Italian player Totti was given a red card wrongly when he was tripped in the penalty area. No f**king way. The refs or linesmen have been bought. I want to see an investigation. I don't give a damn whether Korea or even Haiti wins the games, but fixing a game in front of the world on TV is cheap and will bring Korea nothing in the long run. Soccer doesn't end with this match today and I can almost promise you that we will see the same thing happen in the match against Germany. Would you be willing to bet money on that? Spain were definitely the better players today but that doesn't mean anything, just as the USA were better players yesterday but lost. Dissallowing goals is another thing altogether and it stinks when it happens with the same team in two consecutive matches.

kndonlee · Jun 22, 2002, 08:37 AM

Another observation I made...

Being in Korea and seeing everything from the Korean medi'a point of view, I noticed... but please correct me if otherwise...

It has seemed that the ref's have been working in Korea's favor throughout the whole worldcup season...BUT,

recalling from memory, upon every call made against Korea, the korean members just accepted it, shrugged it off, and kept on playing with all their might. On the other hand, it just seemed to me.. just seeemed that upon every call made by all other teams playing against Korea, that they'd fight the ref, the whole team would come to the ref, arguing that their call was wrong(even if it really was), and it just seemd that their was a lot more tension between the other teams with the refs compared to Korea's team and the refs...

Hrmm.. dunno if i said that the way I wanted to, but it just seemed that most other teams got ticked off by the ref's calls on fouls and offsides and everything else and showed it... and resented the ref's for it.. (which I can understand...) but the koreans just seemed to accept it and move on.. no hard feelings... While other players got a chance to take abreak, they used it seemingly arguing with the refs, while the korean team just got together in a huddle, to affirm each other and make sure they palyed their hardest...giving the least grief to the refs around...

Remember, just my observation... but all in all ref's are human beings.. and human beings like to be treated well, and definitely not intimidated, cuz usually intimidation causes people to bite back...

[ 06-22-2002, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: kndonlee ]

undotwa · Jun 22, 2002, 08:58 AM

Well I was around George Street Sydney (not on George Street but near, went through it) to go to a Spanish resturant I booked a few nights ago, seriously... I had no idea Korea was playing Spain.

Anyway, there was a huge crowd - of Koreans. Police with horses for crowd control (I stepped in horse sh*t accidently). It was extremely difficult to do a simple task like crossing the road <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .I was like WOW. I just didn't expect this.

The Placid Casual · Jun 22, 2002, 11:17 AM

Congrats to Korea!! Glad to see that they got through, they had a great team spirit throughout

However, this game has highlighted the appauling refereeing standards of the championships...Actually I think it is the linesman that are to blame...

Some of the descisions in the last few games have been more than atrocious... never will I moan at Messrs Uriah Rennie and Andy Durstow again on a Saturday afternoon...

Xtopolop: I'm not having a go or anything, but the calls weren't close... the decisions were easy and should have been correct...this the best football tournment in the world, the refereeing should be of the same standard...no excuses.

Marc

Parvulesco · Jun 22, 2002, 02:23 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by theolein:
That's bullsh-it! Jesus F**king Christ, in two consecutive games between Italy and South Korea and Spain and South Korea goals have been disallowed only to have been shown in television afterwards to have been perfectly legal goals. Christ! Spain would have scored twice today. Today FIFA officially admitted that the Italian player Totti was given a red card wrongly when he was tripped in the penalty area. No f**king way. The refs or linesmen have been bought. I want to see an investigation. I don't give a damn whether Korea or even Haiti wins the games, but fixing a game in front of the world on TV is cheap and will bring Korea nothing in the long run. Soccer doesn't end with this match today and I can almost promise you that we will see the same thing happen in the match against Germany. Would you be willing to bet money on that? Spain were definitely the better players today but that doesn't mean anything, just as the USA were better players yesterday but lost. Dissallowing goals is another thing altogether and it stinks when it happens with the same team in two consecutive matches.<hr /></blockquote>My sentiments exactly. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to suspect match fixing, but Korea has advanced on some critical, incorrect calls in both of the last two games, and it does make you wonder.

The President of FIFA has admitted that refereeing has been awful, and even noted that the Italians, in particular, were the victims of a large number of mistaken calls (no kidding!). Supposedly, in the future they'll go with the best, most experience referees in the world, instead of trying to get refs from diverse countries.

[ 06-22-2002, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Parvulesco ]

Parvulesco · Jun 22, 2002, 02:29 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by kndonlee:
Another observation I made...
recalling from memory, upon every call made against Korea, the korean members just accepted it, shrugged it off, and kept on playing with all their might. On the other hand, it just seemed to me.. just seeemed that upon every call made by all other teams playing against Korea, that they'd fight the ref, the whole team would come to the ref, arguing that their call was wrong(even if it really was), and it just seemd that their was a lot more tension between the other teams with the refs compared to Korea's team and the refs...
<hr /></blockquote>There's probably some truth to that. That's not to say that Korea is a cleaner team than anyone else�did you see how much they were holding the Spanish players' jerseys throughout the match? They even tore one of the Spaniard's jerseys!

At the same time, however, the South Koreans haven't been on the receiving end of an atrocious, game-deciding call, as the Spanish and Italians now have, so they didn't really have anything to complain about.

[ 06-22-2002, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Parvulesco ]

cenutrio · Jun 22, 2002, 03:02 PM

First, I�m from Spain. So, do not take my opinion too seriously but when all the referee mistakes favors the same guys�stinks. Probably they agree in Portugal or Italy.
Spain outplayed Korea and they even scored a couple of goals. I cannot see anything wrong with them. I would like to know what the hell was the referee thinking.
A guy from Egypt helped? by guys from Trinidad and Uganda. Very skillful futbol countries with huge leagues, etc��..
I guess I�m a little mad�a semi against Germany would be huge and now we�ll have to wait another four years for another chance.

cenutrio · Jun 22, 2002, 03:10 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Xtopolop:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by theolein:
I wonder how much the Ref was paid for his performance in this one? F**king joke of a game. Seems like Korea can sit at the side lines and still win.<hr /></blockquote>Wow, there's already an article on wc-soccer.com, bitching about the refs. I believe the same thing happened immediately after one of the Laker games. This sort of thing happens all the time, for any sporting event. Overall the refs for the World Cup haven't been spectacular, and yes, I can see your point when you say the Koreans are being favored, but you are also discounting their stamina which has proven to be a key part of their success. A goal was called back because the whistle had already been blown, but what I think you are referring to is the play where Morientes (?) was driving up the right side and actually kept the ball in bounds while the linesman called a goal kick. This was a close call, but on the replay it was clear that the ball was kept in bounds. Incredibly close calls fall about half and half, but the losing side always points them out. Also... see my post above <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .<hr /></blockquote>OK I had enough...the losing side is Italy, Portugal, Spain...next!
We are talking about two legal goals removed from the scoreboard and what about the outsides! In two plays the Spanish players where alone in front of the goalkeeper in perfect legal situation. How much is Sansung, Hyundai, or the Korean government paying to third world referees? Stinks�

thunderous_funker · Jun 22, 2002, 04:06 PM

Spain was robbed. They were clearly the better team, much to my surprise.

I expected the Korean speed and stamina to dominate. They didn't. Korea didn't even really come close to scoring. It was a dominating performance by a very beat up Spanish team.

Spain was robbed. I don't know if it's fixed or what, but the officiating was a bloody travesty. Something must be done or soccer will go the way of Figure Skating--Total subjectivity regardless of performance.

I'd like to see something done. Instant replay to review penalties in the box, offsides in the box or player ejections. A FIFA panel that can over-rule the Ref on the field if they see a gross error during a game. Something. Anything.

I don't even know if I want to watch the rest of the tournament. I'm sick about it.

theolein · Jun 22, 2002, 04:52 PM

There will be repurcussions about this game. Not only this, but I'm almost willing to bet that something similar is going to happen in the match with Germany.

Xtopolop · Jun 22, 2002, 06:37 PM

I think it's ridiculous to say that the games have been fixed. Korea as a co-host has home field advantage, which is tremendous. Take just about any team, and tell me their record doesn't reflect this. The refs have been awful this cup (except maybe the Germany/USA ref). I think kndonlee has a point, the Koreans have been just accepting their penalties/cards. Now I know, as Parvulesco pointed out, that Korea doesn't have any game-deciding calls to complain about, but Kim Tae-Young got an elbow to the face which resulted in a broken nose (hence the Robin-esque face mask against Spain). There was no foul called, no card handed out, nothing. Did they come yell in the ref's face? No. Kim shrugged it off and continued to play with a BROKEN nose. I realize that Spain was the dominant team last night, but the dominant team does not always win. Take Germany/USA for example, the US outplayed the Germans, but could not pull off the win. Even the German coach said they were lucky. Like I said before, it's ludicrous to think that the refs and linesmen have been paid off. With such a passionate world-wide audience, they would not be able to get away with a stunt like that. Thunderous_funker has a good idea with the instant replays and FIFA panel. Whether or not they, or something similar, will ever come to be is another question though.

Remember: this is just a GAME.

[Edit]: I think the chances of winning out over Germany are VERY slim. They have an incredible goalie (probably the best in the world) and a serious size advantage to boot. It will be a great game to watch, but I think Germany will ultimately face off against Brazil... and lose?

[ 06-22-2002, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Xtopolop ]

Parvulesco · Jun 22, 2002, 07:31 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Xtopolop:
I realize that Spain was the dominant team last night, but the dominant team does not always win. Take Germany/USA for example, the US outplayed the Germans, but could not pull off the win. Even the German coach said they were lucky.<hr /></blockquote>It would be one thing if they had dominated the game but simply failed to score. That would be a tough, but fair, defeat. But Spain dominated the game and scored a legitimate goal that was called off on a tragically illegitimate call. That's the whole point�they won the game, but had victory stolen from them.

Adam Betts · Jun 22, 2002, 09:42 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Xtopolop:
(except maybe the Germany/USA ref)<hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Didn't you see the germany player who touched the ball at goalie line? That's CHEATING!

And ref said he didn't touch the ball <img border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" title="" src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" />

nonhuman · Jun 22, 2002, 09:45 PM

Maybe the refs favour the Koreans because they have better sportsmanship and actually treat the refs like they have some intelligence and know what they're doing...

theolein · Jun 22, 2002, 09:58 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nonhuman:
Maybe the refs favour the Koreans because they have better sportsmanship and actually treat the refs like they have some intelligence and know what they're doing...<hr /></blockquote>Which is funny because it's obvious the refs either don't have any intellligence or the intelligence they have is more of the financial kind.

nonhuman · Jun 22, 2002, 10:41 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by theolein:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nonhuman:
Maybe the refs favour the Koreans because they have better sportsmanship and actually treat the refs like they have some intelligence and know what they're doing...<hr /></blockquote>Which is funny because it's obvious the refs either don't have any intellligence or the intelligence they have is more of the financial kind.<hr /></blockquote>Yeah, that occured to me right after I posted. But even stupid people like being treated with respect.

cenutrio · Jun 22, 2002, 11:50 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Xtopolop:
I think it's ridiculous to say that the games have been fixed. Korea as a co-host has home field advantage, which is tremendous. Take just about any team, and tell me their record doesn't reflect this. The refs have been awful this cup (except maybe the Germany/USA ref). I think kndonlee has a point, the Koreans have been just accepting their penalties/cards. Now I know, as Parvulesco pointed out, that Korea doesn't have any game-deciding calls to complain about, but Kim Tae-Young got an elbow to the face which resulted in a broken nose (hence the Robin-esque face mask against Spain). There was no foul called, no card handed out, nothing. Did they come yell in the ref's face? No. Kim shrugged it off and continued to play with a BROKEN nose. I realize that Spain was the dominant team last night, but the dominant team does not always win. Take Germany/USA for example, the US outplayed the Germans, but could not pull off the win. Even the German coach said they were lucky. Like I said before, it's ludicrous to think that the refs and linesmen have been paid off. With such a passionate world-wide audience, they would not be able to get away with a stunt like that. Thunderous_funker has a good idea with the instant replays and FIFA panel. Whether or not they, or something similar, will ever come to be is another question though.

Remember: this is just a GAME.

[Edit]: I think the chances of winning out over Germany are VERY slim. They have an incredible goalie (probably the best in the world) and a serious size advantage to boot. It will be a great game to watch, but I think Germany will ultimately face off against Brazil... and lose?<hr /></blockquote>You're rigth this is just a game and Korea won, congratulations.

But Spain was much more than a dominant team, they were a team that scored twice and did not count. Am I the only one that thinks there is something wrong?

Remember the history will tell us that Korea was in the semis in 2002, first time ever, enjoy it!
We'll have other chances and of course our Real Madrid will help. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

SReb97 · Jun 23, 2002, 01:19 AM

What about the penalty kicks at the end. That stop made by Korea. Didn't anyone else see the goalie a few feet off his line?!?!?!

From the FIFA Laws of the Game

The defending goalkeeper: remains on his goal line, facing the kicker, between the goalposts until the ball has been kicked.

The fourth Spain kick should have been retaken in accordance with the laws. I mean he wasn't slightly off his line - it was considerable!!! What in the world could the ref be looking at!!!! A no-call like that is a travesty, the outcome might have turned out to be the same, but lets allow the players to decide it. It was a great game, much like the US-Germany game.... just unfortunate this one was ultimately decided by the referees.

Parvulesco · Jun 23, 2002, 02:17 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by SReb97:
What about the penalty kicks at the end. That stop made by Korea. Didn't anyone else see the goalie a few feet off his line?!?!?!

From the FIFA Laws of the Game

The defending goalkeeper: remains on his goal line, facing the kicker, between the goalposts until the ball has been kicked.

The fourth Spain kick should have been retaken in accordance with the laws. I mean he wasn't slightly off his line - it was considerable!!! What in the world could the ref be looking at!!!! A no-call like that is a travesty, the outcome might have turned out to be the same, but lets allow the players to decide it. It was a great game, much like the US-Germany game.... just unfortunate this one was ultimately decided by the referees.<hr /></blockquote>You're absolutely correct--the Korean keeper did move off the line, and if you watch the replay you can even see Joaqu�n hesitate apparently in reaction to his movement--but this rule is never enforced. Provided that the goalkeeper doesn't charge the kicker, referees ignore forward movement off the line.

jean-henri · Jun 23, 2002, 02:38 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by theolein:
Which is funny because it's obvious the refs either don't have any intellligence or the intelligence they have is more of the financial kind.<hr /></blockquote>Sure this match was a theft, but I don't believe in a conspiracy theory like this. The problem is that the vast majority of referees simply are below the standards. Even Beckenbauer - an old bavarian fascist (sorts like that usually believe in strong covert organizations) - seems to admit the problem now (for a brief moment he also did that in 1986, but only because his own team W. Germany ran into a not so lucky referee from the Fiji Islands).
Kim Milton Nielsen of Denmark, considered to be in the top 10 - together with eg. Collina of Italy and Anders Frisk of Sweden - (Milton Nielsen was the one who had the guts to send Beckham off four years ago) recently said in an interview that the only just way to select the referees would be through a permanent and independent judging committee. If it then turns out that the best 32 referees are all eg. Swedes then all matches must have swedish referees!
But FIFA will never allow that. Blatter's (and before him Havelange's) power is built from support of a vast majority of "smaller" countries, so the selection of referees is a political matter, not one of fairness. It is a sort of "United colours of FIFA"-effect. An example: the referee from Equador had one (1) real international match on his CV before the world cup. An unexperienced ref like that is much easier lead by "peer pressure" - from the crowd, the hosts, the organisation and so on - than an experienced referee would be.
But when Blatter now talks about something to be done it's just words. He doesn't really care, he's in it for the power.

SReb97 · Jun 23, 2002, 02:54 AM

I would agree with them ignoring forward movement, but only if it's a small shuffle (similar to a shuffle of the wall on free kicks), this was a big jump (which I actually believe was caused by the hesitation, but that doesn't matter). An infraction like that should have warranted a rekick. They have a ref on the goal line for a reason, and this is it.

Xtopolop · Jun 23, 2002, 06:32 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Parvulesco:
It would be one thing if they had dominated the game but simply failed to score. That would be a tough, but fair, defeat. But Spain dominated the game and scored a legitimate goal that was called off on a tragically illegitimate call. That's the whole point�they won the game, but had victory stolen from them.<hr /></blockquote>The "shirt-tugging" goal was called back due to a whistle blow before the goal was shot. Everyone was pulling shirts then, you could easily see it in the replay. This was a call by Ghandour of Egypt and was in fact reasonable. Lots of tugging in the box, blow the whistle, not too complex. I'm not saying that the Koreans didn't do any shirt-pulling because Spain's player had his shirt ripped, but the whistle was blown for a reason, BEFORE the shot got off. The other questionable goal was the one headed in after the out-of-bounds had been called by the sideline ref. The Korean keeper saw the flag and knew that anything after that point would not count. Like his movement off the line may have affected Joaqu�n's penalty kick, the waving of the flag, signaling out-of-bounds effected Lee's response. As for the fourth penalty shot, I whole-heartedly agree. It should have been taken over. I did not see the player hesitate, but the movement off the line was very noticeable and should have warranted another attempt.

theolein · Jun 23, 2002, 09:06 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jean-henri:
Sure this match was a theft, but I don't believe in a conspiracy theory like this. The problem is that the vast majority of referees simply are below the standards. Even Beckenbauer - an old bavarian fascist (sorts like that usually believe in strong covert organizations) - seems to admit the problem now (for a brief moment he also did that in 1986, but only because his own team W. Germany ran into a not so lucky referee from the Fiji Islands).
Kim Milton Nielsen of Denmark, considered to be in the top 10 - together with eg. Collina of Italy and Anders Frisk of Sweden - (Milton Nielsen was the one who had the guts to send Beckham off four years ago) recently said in an interview that the only just way to select the referees would be through a permanent and independent judging committee. If it then turns out that the best 32 referees are all eg. Swedes then all matches must have swedish referees!
But FIFA will never allow that. Blatter's (and before him Havelange's) power is built from support of a vast majority of "smaller" countries, so the selection of referees is a political matter, not one of fairness. It is a sort of "United colours of FIFA"-effect. An example: the referee from Equador had one (1) real international match on his CV before the world cup. An unexperienced ref like that is much easier lead by "peer pressure" - from the crowd, the hosts, the organisation and so on - than an experienced referee would be.
But when Blatter now talks about something to be done it's just words. He doesn't really care, he's in it for the power.<hr /></blockquote>There was a big scandal just a couple of months ago in FIFA where it emerged in the investigation (which was smothered as soon as possible of course) that Blatter is involved in some pretty heavy irregularities of a financial kind. Blatter is only opening his mouth now in order to deflect criticism away from his organisation. Nonetheless, I think there will be repurcussions after this WC(Le WC n'est pas le WC mais il put quand meme). I think a lot depends on what happens in the match between Germany and South Korea. As it stands at the moment, the Germans might very well lose against the Koreans, but if there is more strange refereeing, the Germans will probably join in the voices demanding a reform. (I personally like the idea of having a judging panel next to the pitch with the ability to stop or reverse the referees decisions based on taped video evidence).

theolein · Jun 23, 2002, 10:10 AM

Apparently, there are some others who think that <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport3/worldcup2002/hi/features/newsid_2060000/2060702.stm" target="_blank">things</a> are not as they should be. South Korea has played very well and everybody wishes them good luck, but the controversy of the matches against Italy and Spain are going to last long after everyone has forgotten the matches themselves.

cenutrio · Jun 23, 2002, 01:53 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Xtopolop:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Parvulesco:
It would be one thing if they had dominated the game but simply failed to score. That would be a tough, but fair, defeat. But Spain dominated the game and scored a legitimate goal that was called off on a tragically illegitimate call. That's the whole point�they won the game, but had victory stolen from them.<hr /></blockquote>The "shirt-tugging" goal was called back due to a whistle blow before the goal was shot. Everyone was pulling shirts then, you could easily see it in the replay. This was a call by Ghandour of Egypt and was in fact reasonable. Lots of tugging in the box, blow the whistle, not too complex. I'm not saying that the Koreans didn't do any shirt-pulling because Spain's player had his shirt ripped, but the whistle was blown for a reason, BEFORE the shot got off. The other questionable goal was the one headed in after the out-of-bounds had been called by the sideline ref. The Korean keeper saw the flag and knew that anything after that point would not count. Like his movement off the line may have affected Joaqu�n's penalty kick, the waving of the flag, signaling out-of-bounds effected Lee's response. As for the fourth penalty shot, I whole-heartedly agree. It should have been taken over. I did not see the player hesitate, but the movement off the line was very noticeable and should have warranted another attempt.<hr /></blockquote>Do you see three major calls all helping Korea...

jean-henri · Jun 23, 2002, 02:41 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by theolein:
Apparently, there are some others who think that <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport3/worldcup2002/hi/features/newsid_2060000/2060702.stm" target="_blank">things</a> are not as they should be. South Korea has played very well and everybody wishes them good luck, but the controversy of the matches against Italy and Spain are going to last long after everyone has forgotten the matches themselves.<hr /></blockquote>Please, don't misunderstand me - I'm not so na�ve that I don't believe in conspiracies related to FIFA, or other major international sports-organisations for that matter. It's not a coincidence that several of the big organisations used to be lead by former old fashioned fascists, like Primo Nebbiolo of IAAF, Antonio Samaranch of IOC or Jo�o Havelange of FIFA. Fortunately, this is a dying-out race. In Blatter's r�gime also there's of course no use of brute violence, which makes a huge difference.
One of the recent examples of corruption I recall was at the 1988 Olympic boxing tournament in Seoul (... now wait!) where several American athletes' defeats were more than "mystifyingly bizarre". It was later proved that that was all due to an unholy political alliance between South Korea and former Sovjet Union.
It's no secret, I think, that Blatter has got close personal friends inside the Kirsch Group, nor is it a secret that FIFA's presentation of accounts -at the general assembly in May- included the expected income for the period 2002-06. BTW - the chartered chief accountant got sacked a few days before this presentation! (sorry, but my business-English sucks).
But when I don't believe in fixed matches it's because there is no clear logical red line of corruption present, the bizarre flags and out-rulings seem to hit any team (except, maybe, England and South-Korea). It looked like Brazil was being "helped" when, first Rivaldi wasn't booked in the match against the Turquie and next when Belgium was outruled by a disastrous referee, but then another amateurish referee sent off Ronaldinho in their next match (against England). Argentina, one of the superpowers, lost their quarter-final due to Micheal Owen's clear diving. And so on...
I do think that there is another level of the tournament where one could talk about "corruption" though. For example, after the final drawings Kirsch changed the schedule, so Denmark would have to play all three matches in the afternoon (during the mid-day heat), while France could play their remaining matches (the schedule for the opening match was non-moveable) in the evening. Germany got all three matches in the evening. No explanation, but appearently "for the good of the TV-viewers".

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Xtopolop:

...
Remember: this is just a GAME.<hr /></blockquote>No, it's not. Wars have been started for much less reasons than football.

jean-henri · Jun 23, 2002, 04:35 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by theolein:
There will be repurcussions about this game. Not only this, but I'm almost willing to bet that something similar is going to happen in the match with Germany.<hr /></blockquote>FYI that match will be lead by Urs Meier of Switzerland. <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport3/worldcup2002/hi/other_news/newsid_2061000/2061076.stm" target="_blank">Semi final refs</a>
He's got a good rep, and obviously speaks german too.

theolein · Jun 23, 2002, 06:40 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jean-henri:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by theolein:
There will be repurcussions about this game. Not only this, but I'm almost willing to bet that something similar is going to happen in the match with Germany.<hr /></blockquote>FYI that match will be lead by Urs Meier of Switzerland. <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport3/worldcup2002/hi/other_news/newsid_2061000/2061076.stm" target="_blank">Semi final refs</a>
He's got a good rep, and obviously speaks german too.<hr /></blockquote>I think that corrupt bastard Blatter (just read the dossier on the scandal) is now sh-it scared that there will be an official investigation and is trying to make sure things are done cleanly in the last four matches. he has a good reason to fear an official investigation. There was a lot of behind closed doors skullduggery at the last FIFA congress and there was an official legal complaint going on against him due to mismanaged funds(The other memebers of FIFA were claiming that FIFA is bankrupt). He managed to quieten the whole row down but I wonder if he didn't do it by promising to organise something special at this WC in order to bring in fresh funds. I think these bastards should lose their positions and FIFA should be disbanded. Urs Meier may have a good rep but he is one of the referees in the controversial decisions group in the match between the USA and Korea in which he awarded a highly dubious penalty to Korea. There was a lot of pressure for Korea to at least make it through the group phase...

Parvulesco · Jun 23, 2002, 06:44 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nonhuman:
Maybe the refs favour the Koreans because they have better sportsmanship and actually treat the refs like they have some intelligence and know what they're doing...<hr /></blockquote>Or, as the old saw goes, the only people who don't complain when they lose are those who are used to losing...

Honestly though, when you're getting all of the calls, you'd be stupid to risk that by complaining to the referees.

[ 06-23-2002, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Parvulesco ]

imafreak · Jun 24, 2002, 01:28 PM

The Seoul Olympics. Roy Jones vs Korean Boxer. The match went to the Korean. Yeah right! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

The Korean Soccer team is playing very well in this tournament. They're pumped up and playing hard. You have to give them credit. Refs make mistakes.

[ 06-24-2002, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: imafreak ]

neill anblome · Jun 24, 2002, 01:43 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Xtopolop:
... I was impressed with Spain's ability to keep up with the Koreans in terms of pure endurance, seeing as how Korea's other victories have all come more or less in the last 15 minutes of regulation, or over-time...<hr /></blockquote>I was actually surprised Spain didn't kick their asses all over the place. This must be the most surprising world cup ever...with some of the worst reffereeing in history (especially from the linesmen)...

I think Korea played a surprisingly good role in this turnament, but their success IMHO has largely come from the fanatic support of the home crowd and the advantage of being the "underdog" (Italy found out the hard way, and so did Portugal). But alas, it will all be over tomorrow. Germany 2 - Korea 0...and the final will be Germany - Brazil

voodoo · Jun 24, 2002, 01:52 PM

Has anyone here seen 'Shaolin Soccer'? It's a must see after this match

jean-henri · Jun 24, 2002, 04:08 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by imafreak:
The Seoul Olympics. Roy Jones vs Korean Boxer. The match went to the Korean. Yeah right! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

The Korean Soccer team is playing very well in this tournament. They're pumped up and playing hard. You have to give them credit. Refs make mistakes.

<hr /></blockquote>I don't know if your imperative was (partly) aimed at me, but since I mentioned the boxing tournament in Seoul I'd like to reply.
- "R. Jones vs Korean Boxer" (btw, there were other scandals in Seoul as well)
It really was just an anonymous korean boxer, and again, the theft was simply too obvious (and has later, as a (minor) consequence of the fall of the Soviet Union been proved as a clear case of corruption.
I don't think the matches in WC2002 are fixed. The awful refereeing seem to hit any squad, and it is, in my opinion, just a consequence of the low standard among the referees. This is a disaster in itself, but it's not corruption. If there is corruption in FIFA it is organised at another less vulnerable level (eg. there are clear threads of corruption in the way Germany managed to get to host the WC 2006).
To be honest, I think South Korea has played some of the best football in the tournament. Especially have they astonished the opponents with their ability to attack at a very high pace (as have the USA) - something that has almost vanished in Europe (look at the way England have managed to suck every bit of energy out of the game in favor of a strong defense).
But I'm also 100% behind those Spanish and Italian supporters that feel victimized of theft, because that's what it was. Those goals were stolen from them, refs don't usually make that kind and amount of mistakes.
In France the situation is another one: the players have only themselves to blame, but Spain and Italy were left in a "vacuum": They won but the victory was taken away from them, no matter if South Korea was the better team.

imafreak · Jun 24, 2002, 05:03 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jean-henri:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by imafreak:
The Seoul Olympics. Roy Jones vs Korean Boxer. The match went to the Korean. Yeah right! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

The Korean Soccer team is playing very well in this tournament. They're pumped up and playing hard. You have to give them credit. Refs make mistakes.

<hr /></blockquote>I don't know if your imperative was (partly) aimed at me, but since I mentioned the boxing tournament in Seoul I'd like to reply.
- "R. Jones vs Korean Boxer" (btw, there were other scandals in Seoul as well)
It really was just an anonymous korean boxer, and again, the theft was simply too obvious (and has later, as a (minor) consequence of the fall of the Soviet Union been proved as a clear case of corruption.
I don't think the matches in WC2002 are fixed. The awful refereeing seem to hit any squad, and it is, in my opinion, just a consequence of the low standard among the referees. This is a disaster in itself, but it's not corruption. If there is corruption in FIFA it is organised at another less vulnerable level (eg. there are clear threads of corruption in the way Germany managed to get to host the WC 2006).
To be honest, I think South Korea has played some of the best football in the tournament. Especially have they astonished the opponents with their ability to attack at a very high pace (as have the USA) - something that has almost vanished in Europe (look at the way England have managed to suck every bit of energy out of the game in favor of a strong defense).
But I'm also 100% behind those Spanish and Italian supporters that feel victimized of theft, because that's what it was. Those goals were stolen from them, refs don't usually make that kind and amount of mistakes.
In France the situation is another one: the players have only themselves to blame, but Spain and Italy were left in a "vacuum": They won but the victory was taken away from them, no matter if South Korea was the better team.<hr /></blockquote>I wasn't aiming at you. I didn't know you had mentioned the Roy Jones vs Korean Boxer thing. That was crazy match. I agree that the Korean team is playing well and that the refs are miserable.

Ryu · Jun 24, 2002, 05:24 PM

For all the hatres... even if I sympathize Italy and Spain, don't make this too big deal out of this.

Meanwhile, read these articles on my personal favorite English journal, the Guardian, about the false refereeing.

<a href="http://football.guardian.co.uk/worldcup2002/story/0,11224,742937,00.html" target="_blank">Gift to Korea</a> and <a href="http://football.guardian.co.uk/worldcup2002/countries/story/0,11936,742813,00.html" target="_blank">Eliminated elite(...)</a>.

theolein · Jun 24, 2002, 06:36 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ryu:
For all the hatres... even if I sympathize Italy and Spain, don't make this too big deal out of this.

Meanwhile, read these articles on my personal favorite English journal, the Guardian, about the false refereeing.

<a href="http://football.guardian.co.uk/worldcup2002/story/0,11224,742937,00.html" target="_blank">Gift to Korea</a> and <a href="http://football.guardian.co.uk/worldcup2002/countries/story/0,11936,742813,00.html" target="_blank">Eliminated elite(...)</a>.<hr /></blockquote>Ryu, Fifa has officially <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport3/worldcup2002/hi/other_news/newsid_2060000/2060689.stm" target="_blank">admitted</a> that there have been "One or two major mistakes" in the refereeing. Nobody is accusing Korea of playing badly. They have played very well. But the sh-it has hit the fan for a reason, that reason being that the refereeing has obviously robbed Spain and possibly also Italy of a chance at the cup. The problem is that the longer that the Koreans deny that there were any problems, the more the calls are going to get that the matches were fixed. It is the flip side of the coin where the Italians were accused of behaving badly. As I said, Korea has played very well, extremely well in fact and have been everybody's favourite underdog, but I have a feeling that unless they add their voices to the calls for reform there is going to be a permanent stigma attached to the team.

Ryu · Jun 24, 2002, 07:00 PM

Actually, Guus Hiddink, the Korean coach admitted also that there were errors. In fact, a lot of Koreans think that they could win the match without that 'help' from the referees and they are quite furious about this issue also. Of course, right now, that perspective of the story is completely overwhelmed by the general hystery of joy. But it seems like that the real reason why Korean opinion is getting so defensive is because of the conspiracy theory.

In soccer, the winner always had good luck. For example, when French won last Euro agaist Italy, Wiltord scored a very lucky goal in the last second of the match. I always thought that the Frech team was very lucky to win that match and Italy had better match and deserves to win. In semi-finals, they won against Portugal, once again, with some luck since there was that controversial penalty in the very last minute of the match.

As many always say, referee is a part of that luck. I think Spain definitely deserves to win but Koreans were lucky. Period. When the US team didn't get the penalty during the match against Germany, did the US players brought up a conspiracy theory? Anyone from Italy or Spain? No... because in our tiny head, it seems like that when a good European team wins over a small new team such as US for luck, it just seems normal as part of their competence.

What I am saying is that the reason why Korea is under fire these days is because it's a small team kicking some ass, and also because it is the hosting country.

However, when people come up with statements such as bribery from dog-eaters (SoccerAge.com for example), I just have to defend Koreans to bring at least some justification to their amazing performance. I feel sorry for those poor Asians who saw their joy of victory entirement discredited for those unreasonable critics.

Anyway, we will see how they will do with a competence-certified Swiss referee tomorrow against Germany.

[ 06-24-2002, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Ryu ]

theolein · Jun 24, 2002, 07:43 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ryu:
Actually, Guus Hiddink, the Korean coach admitted also that there were errors. In fact, a lot of Koreans think that they could win the match without that 'help' from the referees and they are quite furious about this issue also. Of course, right now, that perspective of the story is completely overwhelmed by the general hystery of joy. But it seems like that the real reason why Korean opinion is getting so defensive is because of the conspiracy theory.

In soccer, the winner always had good luck. For example, when French won last Euro agaist Italy, Wiltord scored a very lucky goal in the last second of the match. I always thought that the Frech team was very lucky to win that match and Italy had better match and deserves to win. In semi-finals, they won against Portugal, once again, with some luck since there was that controversial penalty in the very last minute of the match.

As many always say, referee is a part of that luck. I think Spain definitely deserves to win but Koreans were lucky. Period. When the US team didn't get the penalty during the match against Germany, did the US players brought up a conspiracy theory? Anyone from Italy or Spain? No... because in our tiny head, it seems like that when a good European team wins over a small new team such as US for luck, it just seems normal as part of their competence.

What I am saying is that the reason why Korea is under fire these days is because it's a small team kicking some ass, and also because it is the hosting country.

However, when people come up with statements such as bribery from dog-eaters (SoccerAge.com for example), I just have to defend Koreans to bring at least some justification to their amazing performance. I feel sorry for those poor Asians who saw their joy of victory entirement discredited for those unreasonable critics.

Anyway, we will see how they will do with a competence-certified Swiss referee tomorrow against Germany.<hr /></blockquote>The bribery from dog-eaters in news to me. I don't think the Swiss referee is certified anything Ryu. There's no acadamy of refereeing or body that can testify whether a referee is competent or not. But we'll see.

P.S. The kick to the head of the Italian player by a Korean was not the injury you're talking about, which came about as two Italian players tried to head the ball.

Ryu · Jun 24, 2002, 07:58 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by theolein:

P.S. The kick to the head of the Italian player by a Korean was not the injury you're talking about, which came about as two Italian players tried to head the ball.<hr /></blockquote>lol... I thought that was hilarious.

Fortunately for that Korean player, the referee didn't see it. I don't know if he did it intentionally or not, but he deserves more than a red card for sure. I agree