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New BO audio surfaces on Coal and electricity prices
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Chongo
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Nov 2, 2008, 11:31 PM
 
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/...entry_id=23562
“I voted against the Clear Skies Bill. In fact, I was the deciding vote -- despite the fact that I’m a coal state and that half my state thought that I had thoroughly betrayed them. Because I think clean air is critical and global warming is critical.

“But this notion of no coal, I think, is an illusion. Because the fact of the matter is, is that right now we are getting a lot of our energy from coal. And China is building a coal-powered plant once a week. So what we have to do then is figure out how can we use coal without emitting greenhouse gases and carbon. And how can we sequester that carbon and capture it. If we can’t, then we’re gonna still be working on alternatives.

“But ... let me sort of describe my overall policy. What I’ve said is that we would put a cap and trade policy in place that is as aggressive if not more aggressive than anyone out there. I was the first call for 100 percent auction on the cap and trade system. Which means that every unit of carbon or greenhouse gases that was emitted would be charged to the polluter. That will create a market in which whatever technologies are out there that are being presented, whatever power plants are being built, they would have to meet the rigors of that market and the ratcheted-down caps that are imposed every year.

“So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can. It’s just that it will bankrupt them because they’re going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that’s being emitted. That will also generate billions of dollars that we can invest in solar, wind, biodiesel, and other alternative energy approaches. The only thing that I’ve said with respect to coal -- I haven’t been some coal booster. What I have said is that for us to take coal off the table as an ideological matter, as opposed to saying if technology allows us to use coal in a clean way, we should pursue it, that I think is the right approach. The same with respect to nuclear. Right now, we don’t know how to store nuclear waste wisely and we don’t know how to deal with some of the safety issues that remain. And so it’s wildly expensive to pursue nuclear energy. But I tell you what, if we could figure out how to store it safely, then I think most of us would say that might be a pretty good deal.

“The point is, if we set rigorous standards for the allowable emissions, then we can allow the market to determine and technology and entrepreneurs to pursue, what the best approach is to take, as opposed to us saying at the outset, here are the winners that we’re picking and maybe we pick wrong and maybe we pick right.”
He goes on to say that electricity prices would necessarily skyrocket under his cap and trade plan. (40 minute mark)
45/47
     
goMac
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Nov 2, 2008, 11:39 PM
 
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goMac
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Nov 2, 2008, 11:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/...entry_id=23562


He goes on to say that electricity prices would necessarily skyrocket under his cap and trade plan. (40 minute mark)
I think he said "wouldn't". I'm already on zero emissions power myself. It's barely more expensive. (I think 0.7 cents per MWH)
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kobi
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Nov 3, 2008, 12:47 AM
 
What's the controversy to his statements in the interview?
The Religious Right is neither.
     
tie
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Nov 3, 2008, 03:26 AM
 
I think the controversy is that a politician is actually talking about policies? Obama should be attacking McCain for being a "fake American" or something, right?

Obama is definitely going to lose all the right-wing issue-less voters based on these comments.
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Chongo  (op)
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Nov 3, 2008, 06:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
I think he said "wouldn't". I'm already on zero emissions power myself. It's barely more expensive. (I think 0.7 cents per MWH)
he says right after that
uh, they would have to retrofit their operations. That will cost money. They will pass that money on to consumers."
45/47
     
stupendousman
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Nov 3, 2008, 07:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by kobi View Post
What's the controversy to his statements in the interview?
That Obama is caught talking out of both sides of his mouth again.

When he's campaigning in places like Kentucky, Ohio and West Virginia, he's "for clean coal'. When Joe Biden let slip in Ohio that there'd be no new coal run factories when he was in office, Obama's campaign was quick to "correct" Joe and state that his administration backed efforts to promote and use "clean coal" technology where appropriate.

What he doesn't say is that while he prefers clean coal technologies to to non-clean coal technologies, his plans are to put into place a system that will bankrupt anyone wanting to use ANY coal as an energy source, thereby ruining the economy of a state like West Virginia that relies on coal mining as a part of it's economic infrastructure. If people want to use cleaner coal, that's fine with Obama. They'll just go bankrupt doing it and people in states that rely on coal mining will suffer the consequences in jobs and economic downturn.

This is just another example of all of Obama's stances on issues where he nuances every single thing to make it appear that he's taking a moderate position when in fact he's way off in left-field. He's essentially doing the same thing as he did when he was in the Illinois senate voting "present" - not wanting to go on record with is true beliefs on any issue less it hurt his chances to become President. He wants people to believe that he's a moderate like McCain and is selling them a "bill of goods".
     
kobi
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Nov 3, 2008, 08:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
What he doesn't say is that while he prefers clean coal technologies to to non-clean coal technologies, his plans are to put into place a system that will bankrupt anyone wanting to use ANY coal as an energy source, thereby ruining the economy of a state like West Virginia that relies on coal mining as a part of it's economic infrastructure. If people want to use cleaner coal, that's fine with Obama. They'll just go bankrupt doing it and people in states that rely on coal mining will suffer the consequences in jobs and economic downturn.
Let's suppose that someone was a Heroin addict and it's is slowly killing them. Then the Heroin gets regulated, to the point that it's no longer profitable for the dealer, so the dealer goes out of business and forces the addict to get on Methadone and another life is saved. Now equate this on a big scale. This is a bad thing how?

Because the coal industry won't be able to poison our air any longer? Because the coal industry will be regulated? Obama has said over and over, once we become energy independent, industries will have to re-tool to support the new energy source. Obama's energy plan is to be implemented over a 10 year span, they aren't going to shut down coal plants, oil rigs or nuclear power plants overnight. As the new energy source comes on-line, they will slowly shut down the old sources. This is a non-issue.

Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
This is just another example of all of Obama's stances on issues where he nuances every single thing to make it appear that he's taking a moderate position when in fact he's way off in left-field. He's essentially doing the same thing as he did when he was in the Illinois senate voting "present" - not wanting to go on record with is true beliefs on any issue less it hurt his chances to become President. He wants people to believe that he's a moderate like McCain and is selling them a "bill of goods".
^^ Knee Jerk ^^ Sorry the "bill of goods" your selling, goes on deaf ears.
The Religious Right is neither.
     
DKeithA
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Nov 3, 2008, 08:56 AM
 
Geeze, you Republicans are really grasping at straws, aren't you?
     
stupendousman
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Nov 3, 2008, 09:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by kobi View Post
Because the coal industry won't be able to poison our air any longer?
Then he needs to be honest about it. Al Gore was. Of course, that lost him states like West Virginia. In order to try to get West Virginia, Obama has to be dishonest about his plans for coal. He has to pretend to be "pro coal" when in fact he wants to backrupt coal. He lies, the media doesn't tell the truth about it, and people in states like West Virginia are misled into thinking that Obama has the same stand on the issue as Bush or McCain (areas where the people in coal states support Bush).

Of course, if Obama was honest about most of his positions, his political viewpoint and his record, he'd never get elected. It's hard to get elected pretending you've got a record like John McCain's when your record is more like the last 2 guys who lost the Presidential elections for the Democrat. Smart move, but dishonest.
     
tie
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Nov 3, 2008, 10:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Of course, if Obama was honest about most of his positions, his political viewpoint and his record, he'd never get elected. It's hard to get elected pretending you've got a record like John McCain's when your record is more like the last 2 guys who lost the Presidential elections for the Democrat. Smart move, but dishonest.
Nonsense. Obama has been very honest on this. Why do you think he gave the interview?

...And of course the alternative is the guy who equates all his opponents with terrorists and fake Americans. Do you really want to vote for the crazy old rich guy who thinks you aren't a real American if you live in a city, are gay, or don't agree with him; and who wants to raise your taxes in order to give tax relief to some fake plumber?
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stupendousman
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Nov 3, 2008, 11:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by tie View Post
Nonsense. Obama has been very honest on this. Why do you think he gave the interview?
This was almost a year ago, to a liberal paper, who didn't bother putting the important information in the paper.

When Biden essentially said the same thing, the campaign "corrected" him and said they support "clean coal" technologies, which is at best a half-truth. Biden told the truth about he and Obama wanting to get rid of coal. Trying to say you support coal (in order to get votes), while at the same time putting together plans which will bankrupt the coal industry isn't "honest".

...And of course the alternative is the guy who equates all his opponents with terrorists and fake Americans.
I didn't realize Nader took this stance. Admittedly, I haven't been following his campaign.

Do you really want to vote for the crazy old rich guy who thinks you aren't a real American if you live in a city, are gay, or don't agree with him; and who wants to raise your taxes in order to give tax relief to some fake plumber?
You're joking, right? I'm only asking because I didn't see a little ::wink:: emoticon or something.
     
SpaceMonkey
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Nov 3, 2008, 11:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
That Obama is caught talking out of both sides of his mouth again.

When he's campaigning in places like Kentucky, Ohio and West Virginia, he's "for clean coal'. When Joe Biden let slip in Ohio that there'd be no new coal run factories when he was in office, Obama's campaign was quick to "correct" Joe and state that his administration backed efforts to promote and use "clean coal" technology where appropriate.

What he doesn't say is that while he prefers clean coal technologies to to non-clean coal technologies, his plans are to put into place a system that will bankrupt anyone wanting to use ANY coal as an energy source, thereby ruining the economy of a state like West Virginia that relies on coal mining as a part of it's economic infrastructure. If people want to use cleaner coal, that's fine with Obama. They'll just go bankrupt doing it and people in states that rely on coal mining will suffer the consequences in jobs and economic downturn.

This is just another example of all of Obama's stances on issues where he nuances every single thing to make it appear that he's taking a moderate position when in fact he's way off in left-field. He's essentially doing the same thing as he did when he was in the Illinois senate voting "present" - not wanting to go on record with is true beliefs on any issue less it hurt his chances to become President. He wants people to believe that he's a moderate like McCain and is selling them a "bill of goods".
The way I read it, his plan is to set an ambitious emissions target and let the market decide what is the most efficient energy mix to reach that target, rather than anointing clean coal or nuclear as the "winner." Sounds pretty market-oriented to me, and hardly "far left." Hasn't McCain been saying something pretty similar? Take nothing off the table, etc?

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tie
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Nov 3, 2008, 12:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
You're joking, right? I'm only asking because I didn't see a little ::wink:: emoticon or something.
That's because I'm not joking. You want to vote for the guy who thinks 90% of Americans are fake Americans, be my guest.
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stupendousman
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Nov 3, 2008, 01:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by tie View Post
That's because I'm not joking. You want to vote for the guy who thinks 90% of Americans are fake Americans, be my guest.
Could you provide me a quote where he says this?
     
goMac
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Nov 3, 2008, 02:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
When Biden essentially said the same thing, the campaign "corrected" him and said they support "clean coal" technologies, which is at best a half-truth. Biden told the truth about he and Obama wanting to get rid of coal. Trying to say you support coal (in order to get votes), while at the same time putting together plans which will bankrupt the coal industry isn't "honest".
If clean coal is really clean there will be hardly any emissions and it won't be taxed to death.

So your problem is....?
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goMac
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Nov 3, 2008, 02:22 PM
 
Ohio's GOP Senator: McCain "Will Put Coal Out Of Business"
http://www.jedreport.com/2008/11/ohi...cain-will.html

Voinovich: "The McCain amendment will put coal out of business by forcing fuel switching to natural gas..."
..
McCain: "Does it involve some sacrifice on the part of the American people? Yes."

Oooops.
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tie
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Nov 3, 2008, 03:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Could you provide me a quote where he says this?
Can you provide a single instance of a Nobel science prize being given out for political reasons?
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Wiskedjak
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Nov 3, 2008, 06:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Could you provide me a quote where he says this?
I don't know if McCain has actually said this, but his running mate certain has.

Originally Posted by Sarah Palin
We believe that the best of America is in these small towns that we get to visit and these wonderful little pockets of what I call the real America, being here with all of you hard-working, very patriotic, very pro-America areas of this great nation
     
Chuckit
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Nov 3, 2008, 06:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by tie View Post
Can you provide a single instance of a Nobel science prize being given out for political reasons?
That hardly seems relevant to anything in this thread.
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stupendousman
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Nov 3, 2008, 10:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
That hardly seems relevant to anything in this thread.
It's hardly relevant to anything, but that won't stop him.
     
macintologist
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Nov 3, 2008, 10:35 PM
 
It's not new audio because the audio has always been available for download online.
     
tie
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Nov 3, 2008, 11:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
It's hardly relevant to anything, but that won't stop him.
Hmm, so you still can't think of anything, I guess? Keep looking, I'm rooting for you.
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hyteckit
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Nov 3, 2008, 11:22 PM
 
A vote for Obama == No electricity
A vote for Obama == A vote for socialism
A vote for Obama == Anti-American
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Lint Police
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Nov 4, 2008, 12:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
A vote for Obama == No electricity
A vote for Obama == A vote for socialism
A vote for Obama == Anti-American
After all these threads, two years and all this debate, you and your friends still do not get it do you? It isn't about some silly words on a forum, it is about a way of life.

This election probably means more to me than any election ever. Not because of the times we live in, as important as they are, but for me personally. I have a feeling that makes me sick and it begins tomorrow.

I was born with little. My family never had a lot but we always got by. I grew up with morals, despite the fact my dad was an alcoholic and heavy smoker. We lost our house when I was 9 because he was laid off, and my father died of a heart attack when I was 11. Not once did my mom take pity support from the government. She worked her ass off for the next 12 years to make sure I had what I needed, not what we felt we were owed. I went to college, and skipped out after a year and a half to get a job and take care of my mom when her second man died from cancer.

After twelve years I left a great job with good insurance to do work on my own in another field. It was my dream. I started a company that has since failed because of bad decisions with a partner that was too preoccupied to grow with. Late last year I started a new company in the same field and have built a clientele that has allowed me to think about growing past me as the only employee. I learned from my mistakes. All while getting my ass kicked with rules and regulations that make it nearly impossible to grow what I have built.

After five years of struggling on my own, barely making ends meet and taking care of an elderly parent, I am on the verge of making it.

I did not choose my start in life, but I made something of it. On my own. I do not feel I was owed anything. I took what was given and made something of it. Believe me, you can make ends meet. Assuming you buy food, and not toys.

I don't want you programs of support, I want to earn my way.

I have lived the life of the person Senator Obama thinks he is talking to. I don't need a hand out. I need you to get the hell out of my way, and you better not take a dime when you do. I do not envy those that have more, I look to them for guidance. You might be surprised how many have fought the hard fight to live how they do today, and how many of them are willing to help you to succeed also with wisdom to learn from their mistakes.

Everyone in this country can make it on their own. You don't need anything except the want to be better than you are.

I am not smart enough to know all the ins and outs of socialism, marxism, capitalism, etc. I do know that I am an American that believes in what we are, who we are, where we came from and that if we want more than we need, we are doomed.

I know many here still won't "get" this and they will continue to put down those of us that do not agree with their policies. Just remember, we are all in this together, and you better not be taking your share from me. I earned it.

cause we're not quite "the fuzz"
     
tie
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Nov 4, 2008, 12:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
I don't know if McCain has actually said this, but his running mate certain has.
Moreover, the McCain campaign has not distanced itself from these anti-American remarks. A McCain advisor the other day said on MSNBC,

KEVIN CORKE: Okay. You’re talking about winning this year, but that's going to require that you win states like – well, like Virginia, for example. And as someone who is now in northern Virginia, we're both right here, we get it. Northern Virginia is increasingly strong in the state. They have more political clout. Democrats have won the statehouse; Jim Webb’s surprising victory in the Senate. It would seem to me that there could be a tipping of the balance there. Would you agree with that? And that maybe be – you know, maybe that's where he has to focus his energy now.

NANCY PFOTENHAUER: Well, Kevin, I certainly agree that northern Virginia has gone more Democratic. You know, as a proud resident of Oakton, Virginia, I can tell you that the Democrats have just come in from the District of Columbia and moved into northern Virginia. And that's really what you see there. But the rest of the state, real Virginia, if you will, I think will be very responsive to Senator McCain’s message. And remember that, you know, you’ve got places in other states like northern Wisconsin, the iron range of Minnesota, south-central and southeastern Pennsylvania, the St. Louis suburbs and the rural areas of Missouri that are very responsive to our message. And again we're taking it to them in Pennsylvania and New Hampshire. He’s having to fight to defend there, as you can tell because he's deployed people like the Clintons out in Pennsylvania. And every speech Joe Biden gives, he says, “I’m from Scranton.” You don't know what else he's going to say, but he sure gets that line in.

CORKE: Hey Nancy, I’m going to give you a chance to climb back off that ledge. Did you say "real Virginia"?

PFOTENHAUER: I did say outside of north – well, I mean real Virginia, because northern Virginia is where I’ve always been, but real Virginia I take to be the – this part of the state that is more southern in nature, if you will. Northern Virginia is really metro D.C., as you're aware, Kevin.

CORKE: All right. I’m just going to let you -- you’re aware of that one. I’m just saying.
Originally Posted by Lint Police
I have lived the life of the person Senator Obama thinks he is talking to. I don't need a hand out. I need you to get the hell out of my way, and you better not take a dime when you do. I do not envy those that have more, I look to them for guidance. You might be surprised how many have fought the hard fight to live how they do today, and how many of them are willing to help you to succeed also with wisdom to learn from their mistakes.
McCain plans to buy up delinquent mortgages at face value, and his running mate just tripled taxes on oil companies in order to redistribute an extra $1,200 handout to each Alaskan. I think your choice is pretty clear in this election.
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ort888
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Nov 4, 2008, 12:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Lint Police View Post
After all these threads, two years and all this debate, you and your friends still do not get it do you? It isn't about some silly words on a forum, it is about a way of life.

This election probably means more to me than any election ever. Not because of the times we live in, as important as they are, but for me personally. I have a feeling that makes me sick and it begins tomorrow.

I was born with little. My family never had a lot but we always got by. I grew up with morals, despite the fact my dad was an alcoholic and heavy smoker. We lost our house when I was 9 because he was laid off, and my father died of a heart attack when I was 11. Not once did my mom take pity support from the government. She worked her ass off for the next 12 years to make sure I had what I needed, not what we felt we were owed. I went to college, and skipped out after a year and a half to get a job and take care of my mom when her second man died from cancer.

After twelve years I left a great job with good insurance to do work on my own in another field. It was my dream. I started a company that has since failed because of bad decisions with a partner that was too preoccupied to grow with. Late last year I started a new company in the same field and have built a clientele that has allowed me to think about growing past me as the only employee. I learned from my mistakes. All while getting my ass kicked with rules and regulations that make it nearly impossible to grow what I have built.

After five years of struggling on my own, barely making ends meet and taking care of an elderly parent, I am on the verge of making it.

I did not choose my start in life, but I made something of it. On my own. I do not feel I was owed anything. I took what was given and made something of it. Believe me, you can make ends meet. Assuming you buy food, and not toys.

I don't want you programs of support, I want to earn my way.

I have lived the life of the person Senator Obama thinks he is talking to. I don't need a hand out. I need you to get the hell out of my way, and you better not take a dime when you do. I do not envy those that have more, I look to them for guidance. You might be surprised how many have fought the hard fight to live how they do today, and how many of them are willing to help you to succeed also with wisdom to learn from their mistakes.

Everyone in this country can make it on their own. You don't need anything except the want to be better than you are.

I am not smart enough to know all the ins and outs of socialism, marxism, capitalism, etc. I do know that I am an American that believes in what we are, who we are, where we came from and that if we want more than we need, we are doomed.

I know many here still won't "get" this and they will continue to put down those of us that do not agree with their policies. Just remember, we are all in this together, and you better not be taking your share from me. I earned it.
It's too bad that once Obama takes over you will be forced to take endless government handouts and will become lazy and poor.

You might as well sell you business now and just go on welfare. That's what all of us Obama supporters are going to do. You may as well join us.

My sig is 1 pixel too big.
     
goMac
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Nov 4, 2008, 01:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
It's too bad that once Obama takes over you will be forced to take endless government handouts and will become lazy and poor.

You might as well sell you business now and just go on welfare. That's what all of us Obama supporters are going to do. You may as well join us.
I actually just started up my own business, but now that it looks like Obama is going to win, I plan on not managing it anymore. I figure the government will just manage the whole thing for me now, and I can just sit back and get rich.

Everyone knows that Obama is against Americans having to work for money.
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Nov 4, 2008, 02:09 AM
 
The coal thing is in my Grand Master List (GML)!
     
Chuckit
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Nov 4, 2008, 04:15 AM
 
Don't believe for a second that taxes will stay low under McCain. The trillion-dollar "bailout" McCain was so eager to take credit for is basically a mandate to raise taxes. Money doesn't come from nowhere. Sad but true.
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goMac
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Nov 4, 2008, 04:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Don't believe for a second that taxes will stay low under McCain. The trillion-dollar "bailout" McCain was so eager to take credit for is basically a mandate to raise taxes. Money doesn't come from nowhere. Sad but true.
The hilarious thing was during his stump speech tonight he said he would fight bailouts for banks.

I was like errrrrr... you mean the bailout package you voted for?
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Nov 4, 2008, 09:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by tie View Post
Hmm, so you still can't think of anything, I guess? Keep looking, I'm rooting for you.
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SpaceMonkey
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Nov 4, 2008, 09:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
The hilarious thing was during his stump speech tonight he said he would fight bailouts for banks.

I was like errrrrr... you mean the bailout package you voted for?
He's a fighter. Don't get him started.

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Lint Police
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Nov 4, 2008, 10:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
It's too bad that once Obama takes over you will be forced to take endless government handouts and will become lazy and poor.

You might as well sell you business now and just go on welfare. That's what all of us Obama supporters are going to do. You may as well join us.
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
I actually just started up my own business, but now that it looks like Obama is going to win, I plan on not managing it anymore. I figure the government will just manage the whole thing for me now, and I can just sit back and get rich.

Everyone knows that Obama is against Americans having to work for money.
Exact answers I expected. You didn't READ what I wrote, you assumed what I was thinking in what I wrote. I didn't say I was giving up, I am pissed others are because they think Obama is going to SAVE them.

I am done with this place. Again. I used to think some of you actually took the time to put thought into what you were writing and responding too. It is obvious many of you assume you know me, and people like me.

cause we're not quite "the fuzz"
     
ort888
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Nov 4, 2008, 11:25 AM
 
No. You are projecting your own misguided ideas on everyone else. No is giving anything up. People will work just as hard under Obama as they would under McCain. Your entire premise is flawed and hyperbolic. Who is giving up under Obama? It's a ridiculous thing to think.

I read what you wrote. No where in your story would a McCain or Obama presidency effect you in a significant way. I'm not even sure what you are driving at to be honest. There is nothing to respond to. You made a long rambling statement with no conclusion or point.

What exactly is your point?

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goMac
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Nov 4, 2008, 12:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lint Police View Post
Exact answers I expected. You didn't READ what I wrote, you assumed what I was thinking in what I wrote. I didn't say I was giving up, I am pissed others are because they think Obama is going to SAVE them.

I am done with this place. Again. I used to think some of you actually took the time to put thought into what you were writing and responding too. It is obvious many of you assume you know me, and people like me.
For the government to lower your taxes in any substantial form, they'd have to do it by taking out credit from China. Pork does not take up a substantial amount of the budget.

In fact, we're already on credit from China, so they only way taxes can go is up.

I would expect the government to run like a real business. Real businesses don't take loan after loan after loan to stay afloat. They make a budget, and they stick to it.

As long as McCain wants to stay in Iraq and raise taxes for no one he doesn't have a hope of balancing the budget. I'm not sure how he thinks he plans on doing it, but it simply not possible just by cutting pork.

And when I hear him suggest a government wide spending freeze, I think he's an absolute moron. That will deal far more damage to this country. Do you know how many people the federal government employs? Absolute idiocy at it's finest.
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besson3c
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Nov 4, 2008, 12:55 PM
 
Yeah, the "eliminating pork is the answer to all of our problems" is such a dirty ploy. It sounds great, but it falls so very short.

The way to get us solvent again is by fixing Medicare and Social Security, and ending the war. McCain's $5000 tax credit is a joke. If my employer is paying my family $12,000/year, I'm supposed to pay for the remainder myself? Who is to say that my employer will continue to offer me health insurance given that this tax credit would be available?

I'm disappointed that neither candidate talked about Social Security much.

As far as the war goes, I'm sick of these open ended retarded "it's done when it is done", or these vague and nearly meaningless "it's done when we win" answers. If you can't give us "straight talk" on these issues, chances are you have no real idea how long we'll be there, and that absence of any sort of roadmap is a recipe for greater and greater debt.
     
Chuckit
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Nov 4, 2008, 01:11 PM
 
That's the only responsible answer you can give about getting out of Iraq. Setting an arbitrary end date might make some people feel good, but it won't make that particular date any more reasonable.
Chuck
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goMac
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Nov 4, 2008, 01:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
That's the only responsible answer you can give about getting out of Iraq. Setting an arbitrary end date might make some people feel good, but it won't make that particular date any more reasonable.
If you ask me, I'm fine with leaving troops there as long as Iraq is willing to pay for it.

They have the money to, if they want more protection they can pay for it. I'm not against having troops there. I'm against us paying for it.
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besson3c
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Nov 4, 2008, 01:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
That's the only responsible answer you can give about getting out of Iraq. Setting an arbitrary end date might make some people feel good, but it won't make that particular date any more reasonable.
I can accept that, but then I would demand some specific indications as to what we will need to see in order to be convinced that we have reached these goals. As it stands, these goals just sound completely undefined. Sort of like "I don't know what an elephant is, but I'll know it when I see it!"
     
besson3c
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Nov 4, 2008, 01:27 PM
 
Perhaps I would be more trusting of a vague answer from leadership I trust, but this current administration has given me no reason to having demonstrated no comprehension over Shia and Sunni conflicts which have been going on for decades, no realistic expectations as to how long the war would take, no realistic sense of what troop levels should be, etc. Because of this, their whole strategy needs to at least be put on probation.
     
goMac
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Nov 4, 2008, 01:41 PM
 
I draw the line when they have a surplus. When they have an 80 billion dollar surplus they can protect themselves. That should be the metric we judge them by.

You have to have a metric to judge their progress by. You simply can't start a war and say it's over when it's over.
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besson3c
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Nov 4, 2008, 01:43 PM
 
Besides, there is also the fact that we are babysitting civil war over there, at least in part. The whole "us vs. them" calculus doesn't make sense in this respect.
     
goMac
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Nov 4, 2008, 01:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Besides, there is also the fact that we are babysitting civil war over there, at least in part. The whole "us vs. them" calculus doesn't make sense in this respect.
Well, the conservatives like to say there is no civil war issue. And if that's true, I say great! We won't have any trouble if we leave then.

If there is a potential civil war problem, then it does call into question what we are doing there also.

(Hey Besson, did your stars change colors?)
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Wiskedjak
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Nov 4, 2008, 02:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
(Hey Besson, did your stars change colors?)
They seem to change colours periodically.
     
goMac
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Nov 4, 2008, 02:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
They seem to change colours periodically.
Oh man, I wonder if my stars will do that (I'm nearing 10k posts...)
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olePigeon
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Nov 4, 2008, 02:13 PM
 
It's not new, by the way. It's been around since January.
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you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
     
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Nov 4, 2008, 02:22 PM
 
What I find funny is the doom and gloom coming from the hardcore McCain supporters.

I'm an Obama supporter and have been from the beginning, but even I'm not so naive to think that the world will collapse if McCain and the republicans remain in power. They act as though society will crumble before their eyes if Obama gets elected.

The whole country goes to crap under Bush and they try and downplay the impact of the president, but if Obama gets elected we're going to see a Road Warrior like scenario where we are killing each other for gas in rusted out cars.

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Nov 4, 2008, 06:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
You simply can't start a war and say it's over when it's over.
Why not? This is America!!!
Just scare the crowd sh1tless by numerous stories of that mighty bad towel head with stockpiles of WMDs, ready in 45 minutes... eventually they will be ready to "defend" themselves.
The bill? Let's just pay the next generation for it.

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