[Simon]

Everybody has been expecting new iMacs. And recent rumors (here and here) claimed that should happen this week.

The AppleStore in the US and Europe have just gone down. Time to go crazy.

I'm anxious to see what they'll get apart from Penryn and bigger HDDs. And will Apple stick with ATI on the iMac?

[Pierre B.]

Originally Posted by Simon 

The AppleStore in the US and Europe have just gone down. Time to go crazy.

Are you sure that the European ones too are down? If so, then yes, new hardware today.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Pierre B. 

Are you sure that the European ones too are down? If so, then yes, new hardware today.

Sweden, Germany, Switzerland, France. All down.

[Pierre B.]

Originally Posted by Simon 

And will Apple stick with ATI on the iMac?

I think this is the most important point about an iMac update as of now. Apple received too many complaints for this one and rightfully so. In the last update Apple could just move to ATI as it did but leave the GPU option for the nVidia 7600 as it was, instead of downgrading and not giving an option at all. As for the "features" of these new ATI GPUs (hardware HD decoding) it is just ash in the eyes since Apple never used them and they still remain dormant.

[Simon]

Here we are: new iMacs!

20" 2.4 GHz, 2.66 GHz
24" 2.8 GHz, 3.06 GHz

The 3.06 GHz model has an 8800 GS with 512 MB VRAM. It's also a $150 option on the 2.8 GHz model.

[moep]

Yup, another Apple store outage reveals yet another bump in product specs. This time, it's the iMac getting the treatment just as Geeksugar and our own sources predicted... on a Monday though instead of the Apple's customary Tuesday morning approach. So what's new? Well, for starters you're now looking at the latest Core 2 Duo processors starting at the same $1,199. The 24-inch model now sports a 3.06GHz processor and NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GS graphics as options.

via Engadget

[Pierre B.]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Sweden, Germany, Switzerland, France. All down.

Right, checked from myself too, they are down. So, indeed, something is coming today.

EDIT: oops, I was too slow.

[moep]

Here's a review of the 8800GS for those who aren't familiar with it:

8800GS 384MB quick comparison with 8800GT 512MB - Expreview.com

[Simon]

Now here's the thing: The new iMacs actually don't just come with Penryn, they come with the new Montevina refresh Penryns and the brand new Cantiga chipset. That means they run a 1067 MT/s FSB. That's more than a month before they were scheduled to appear!

It also means Intel has changed their lineup (or Apple has received some type of special deal). The 2.4 GHz iMac comes with 6 MB L2 cache, whereas the announced P8600 was suppoed to come with just 3 MB. Also, a 2.66 GHz socket B Penryn wasn't previously announced at all. There was a P9500 at 2.53 GHz and a T9400 at 2.53 GHz, but no 2.66 GHz part.

[Peter]

cash will be pissed his iMac is now slow as a dog

[MacNNUK]

Pity they didn't sort out the highly reflective glossy display.

I bought a recon matt imac for this very reason.

[Eug]

Nice update, esp. with the bus bump. However, the memory is still 800 MHz, because the iMac is still using SO-DIMMs. (Ironically, my G5 iMac used standard 184-pin DIMMs.) My understanding is that the Cantiga chipset does support 1066 MHz.

However, I'll wait until there's a viable Blu-ray solution (both playback and recording) with the iMacs. My 2.33 GHz 2006 C2D iMac will do fine until then. A 30" screen would be nice too. The continued mandatory glossy display is a little bit of a downer though.

[Big Mac]

Sounds like nice specs, but meh. Bring on the consumer tower.

[P]

Nothing makes sense here. The 8800GS does not exist as a mobile part, the 1066FSB is not supposed to be available for two more months and DDR2-800 is also not supposed to work with the current chipset. The GPU name could be Apple's way of renaming it, but the chipset? Is it really Montevina already? Sounds like it.

[Simon]

It is the Cantiga chipset, not Montevina. And yes, Cantiga does support 800 MHz DDR2. RAM speed ≠ FSB clock.

[asodamiac]

Is the graphics card for the lower 24" and 20" models the same as the previous model? I was really hoping there would be a refresh for the graphics card across the board.

However, I think I'll be picking up one of these bad boys real soon!

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Simon 

The 3.06 GHz model has an 8800 GS with 512 MB VRAM. It's also a $150 option on the 2.8 GHz model.

And I really, really, wouldn't recommend getting that option. Stick with ATI, unless you like your Mac locking up all the time.

[Luca Rescigno]

They kept the graphics the same across the board. All they did was give you the option of an 8800GS on the 24" ones.

That's really disappointing. It would have been nice if they had brought the iMacs up to the current generation with their graphics (Radeon HD 3xxx series and GeForce 9xxx series), but clearly Apple doesn't care enough about gaming to update their GPUs more than once every couple years. That's doubly bad because you can't upgrade them yourself.

[asodamiac]

Hmm, yeah I was hoping for a GPU upgrade, but the more I think about it, I really don't need it. I don't game much, but I mainly do work with photos and videos, but less and less lately. I'm debating if I should wait for the free iPod promotion for students or if I should go ahead and use my student discount to get the newer iMac today.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

And I really, really, wouldn't recommend getting that option. Stick with ATI, unless you like your Mac locking up all the time.

Would this really apply to the iMac? I know the 8800 is known to lockup the Mac Pro, but that's a completely different set of hardware.

Originally Posted by asodamiac 

Hmm, yeah I was hoping for a GPU upgrade, but the more I think about it, I really don't need it. I don't game much, but I mainly do work with photos and videos, but less and less lately.

Parts of Final Cut Studio and Aperture can benefit from not only the faster GPU, but also the increased (and faster) GPU memory.

[P]

Originally Posted by Simon 

It is the Cantiga chipset, not Montevina. And yes, Cantiga does support 800 MHz DDR2. RAM speed ≠ FSB clock.

If you want to be picky, Cantiga is the chipset and Montevina is the platform. In this case, it is possibly Montevina (if they included the new network chip) but more likely Cantiga plus an updated Penryn. And yes, Cantiga supports DDR2-800.

Even curiouser is that the desktop 8800 GS doesn't support 512 MB RAM. It has a 192 bit bus, and thus supports 384 MB or 768 MB. Is Apple doing some private underclocking again, taking an 8800 GT or even 8800M GT and underclocking it to fit inside the TDP? It's hard to find which chip it is - Apple says that it's 2.2x faster than the Radeon 2600 Pro, but an 8800 is much faster than that. The only chip that's close to twice the 2600 Pro is the Radeon 3850 - not even 9600 GT level.

EDIT: An underclocked 8800M GT would fit that rather precisely, actually. 8800M GT is twice 8700M GT. 8700M GT is roughly comparable to Mobile Radeon 2600 XT. Apple's "Radeon 2600 Pro" is an underclocked XT. This means that we have something just under a desktop 9600 GT - not bad, by any means, but no 8800 GT.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Would this really apply to the iMac? I know the 8800 is known to lockup the Mac Pro, but that's a completely different set of hardware.

Well, I've got a MacBook Pro, which is not really all that different from the iMac hardware-wise, and its NVidia 8600M GT locks up whenever I put it under any kind of load at all, including the back-and-forth flip that Front Row's music player does to switch the side of the screen that the album art is on. A RAGE 128 from 1999 would no doubt be able to render that little animation without breaking a sweat, and the GMA 950 certainly can. But not the mighty NVidia 8600M GT, which is apparently inferior in graphics processing capabilities to either of those. I'm a little miffed since this was the first Mac model where I actually had to pay for the remote, and it's also the first Mac model where I can't actually use said remote, because if I do, it's a near certainty that I'll be hard-rebooting the machine. It's enough to make me actually wish the machine had the integrated graphics that the regular MacBook has.

In all seriousness, the issue, as I understand it, is with NVidia's OS X drivers (and they do dump a ton of NVChannel garbage to system.log when they start acting up), so I'd expect they'd affect pretty much any NVidia GPU in a Mac.

I'm not sure why anyone would actually want to pay more for this albatross rather than just getting an ATI that actually works.

[Eug]

I don't have any such lockup problems with my 2.33 GHz 7600GT Core2Duo iMac (3 GB RAM).

[HAGEhead]

I'd be willing to guess that the 8800GS is a downclocked GT or something equivalent, any thoughts? Judging by the similar 2600 Pro situation from last gen, that's my best guess at this point.

[asodamiac]

Does anyone know if Apple has a "grace period" for students who buy a new computer before their summer free-iPod promotion? My G4 Powerbook is circling the drain right now and I need a new computer soon. Even if Apple doesn't have this "grace period" I'll have to spring for a new computer within the week.

Actually, I may head down to the Apple store today to pick up the new iMac. A new iPod would be nice, but my 4th generation iPod is still going strong

[P]

Originally Posted by HAGEhead 

I'd be willing to guess that the 8800GS is a downclocked GT or something equivalent, any thoughts? Judging by the similar 2600 Pro situation from last gen, that's my best guess at this point.

Reading through the details of the spec sheets, I've noticed that the 8800M GTX is very similar to the (desktop) 8800 GS. Both are based on the G92, and both have 96 stream processors - 32 disabled from the full 128 used by GTS. Only difference is that the 8800M GTX uses the full 256 bit memory bus, while the 8800 GS has it cut down to 192 bit. It's probably that, only underclocked as per Apple's fancy.

[P]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

In all seriousness, the issue, as I understand it, is with NVidia's OS X drivers (and they do dump a ton of NVChannel garbage to system.log when they start acting up), so I'd expect they'd affect pretty much any NVidia GPU in a Mac.

I'm not sure why anyone would actually want to pay more for this albatross rather than just getting an ATI that actually works.

Court documents showed that nVidia's drivers were the main source of crashes on Vista - bigger than MS itself. Apparently they've had problems getting the G8x chips to work under any OS. Any hardware bugs would have been fixed in the G92 stepping, though, so if the new 8800GTs are crashing, it has to be drivers. That is not the type of thing that either Apple nor nVidia is likely to let slide forever, so I'm fairly confident that they'll get around to fixing it. I'm seriously considering one now that the Swedish prices have dropped - just want to see the first benchmarks before I pull the trigger.

[Eug]

Electronista | 3GHz iMac's CPU overclocked, not next-gen

55 Watts at 3.06 GHz
Santa Rosa

For reference, the comparatively "loud" G5 970FX was 50 Watts "typical" at 2.5 GHz.

Chip designers power down latest creations | InfoWorld | News | 2004-02-16 | By Tom Krazit, IDG News Service

We don't know what "typical" means, but some have postulated that it may mean as high as 90+ Watts at max. However, there wasn't ever a 2.5 GHz G5 iMac. They topped out 2.1 GHz. The 2.0 GHz 970FX was 24.5 Watts max, which makes us wonder if it was closer to 50 Watts at absolute max.

ie. I'm just throwing out some random numbers, but what I'm wondering is if the 3.06 will be audibly louder than current iMacs. Cuz my G5 2.0 iMac wasn't exactly loud, but it was definitely audible at times. In contrast, my 2.33 GHz C2D iMac is dead silent.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by P 

I'm seriously considering one now that the Swedish prices have dropped - just want to see the first benchmarks before I pull the trigger.

You'll regret it - you have no idea how bad the crashing problem is. I can't even get Front Row to work without locking up - I can't imagine what it would be like trying to run some application that would actually be capable of giving a high-end GPU a workout.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

You'll regret it - you have no idea how bad the crashing problem is. I can't even get Front Row to work without locking up - I can't imagine what it would be like trying to run some application that would actually be capable of giving a high-end GPU a workout.

Weird, because I have a MacBook Pro 2.4 GHz with 8600M GT and don't have any problems with it crashing at all. Front Row works like a charm. Granted, I bought my machine in June 2007, but still, no problems.

Haven't tried any games except The Sims 2 (which works fine as well), so I don't know if that stresses the system or not.

[Kenneth]

I just ordered my first Intel Mac, 3.06Ghz model with 4GB of RAM, dotMac, and AppleCare.

[voodoo]

I can't use a computer with a glossy screen. A full size 24" ****ing glossy screen. I'll pass.

Also, if these machines aren't as silent as the 2GHz C2Ds well, I'll pass.

The GPUs are somewhat disappointing, but that's par with Apple.

[asodamiac]

Well, I just went to the Apple store and bought a 20" with the HD2600. With the student discount, I was able to get a free printer as well.

So far everything is smooth sailing. I really wish they would provide the mini-DVI adapter, but they didn't. I'll have to go back later tonight after my class to pick one up.

People have discussed how they didn't like the glossy screen and I must say, everything is vibrant and contrasty but my goodness! The glare is very annoying. Thank goodness I have a Dell 2408WFP to use as my main monitor!

Have a good one folks.

[Eug]

Glare depends on the ambient lighting. At home, glare isn't usually a big problem, but in my office it can be quite bad.

If you find that glare is bothering your, you can consider setting up your lamps, etc. a bit differently, if possible.

[asodamiac]

My desk is setup in a particular way, so I don't want to do too much rearranging. The glare issue is only during the day time. I don't think my lamps will be an issue as they are placed behind the iMac and to the side of it. I'll know when the sun goes down

Overall, the iMac is running much more smoothly than my Powerbook. For that, I am grateful.

[Eug]

AppleInsider | MacMall offering $100 rebates on new iMacs, in stock now

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Person Man 

Weird, because I have a MacBook Pro 2.4 GHz with 8600M GT and don't have any problems with it crashing at all. Front Row works like a charm. Granted, I bought my machine in June 2007, but still, no problems.

Haven't tried any games except The Sims 2 (which works fine as well), so I don't know if that stresses the system or not.

Do your music tracks all have really short names? Try playing some tracks in Front Row that have long titles, so that the title scrolls in the display. Doing the 'flip' animation while the title is scrolling seems to be one of those things that's just oh so hard for the poor little GPU to handle, so that once it's been doing that for a few minutes, you get a lockup. You'll know it when the screen goes black - the music will of course keep playing, because it's not the whole computer that's locked up, just the UI. That won't be much of a consolation though, since you'll have to do the three-finger salute to get back to being able to do anything with your computer again.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Do your music tracks all have really short names? Try playing some tracks in Front Row that have long titles, so that the title scrolls in the display. Doing the 'flip' animation while the title is scrolling seems to be one of those things that's just oh so hard for the poor little GPU to handle, so that once it's been doing that for a few minutes, you get a lockup. You'll know it when the screen goes black - the music will of course keep playing, because it's not the whole computer that's locked up, just the UI. That won't be much of a consolation though, since you'll have to do the three-finger salute to get back to being able to do anything with your computer again.

I'll try it when I get home. Still at work.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

You'll regret it - you have no idea how bad the crashing problem is. I can't even get Front Row to work without locking up - I can't imagine what it would be like trying to run some application that would actually be capable of giving a high-end GPU a workout.

Somehow I kinda doubt that Apple is introducing a new top-line iMac with a graphics chip that will constantly lock it up. I'm sure you're having a problem but to generalize it to the entire new top iMac is probably kinda over the top. I sure hope not anyway because I got a new 24" iMac 13 days ago and Apple let me sent it back today for a refund so I can get the new one instead! Very excited!

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

Somehow I kinda doubt that Apple is introducing a new top-line iMac with a graphics chip that will constantly lock it up. I'm sure you're having a problem but to generalize it to the entire new top iMac is probably kinda over the top. I sure hope not anyway because I got a new 24" iMac 13 days ago and Apple let me sent it back today for a refund so I can get the new one instead! Very excited!

Apple - Support - Discussions - Display freezing - NVChannel(GL): ...

NVChannel(GL): Graphics channel exception! - InsanelyMac Forum

Mason Mark (.com) - more Mac OS X 10.5 full system crashes

Graphics channel exception on Mac Pro w/ 8800GT - MacTalk Forums

Leopard 10.5.2 Freezes - Mac Forums

Clearly it's just me.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Apple - Support - Discussions - Display freezing - NVChannel(GL): ...

NVChannel(GL): Graphics channel exception! - InsanelyMac Forum

Mason Mark (.com) - more Mac OS X 10.5 full system crashes

Graphics channel exception on Mac Pro w/ 8800GT - MacTalk Forums

Leopard 10.5.2 Freezes - Mac Forums

Clearly it's just me.

Thanks for telling me, you should tell Apple too! The are thinking of sending me a brand new computer with a brand new chip design that is certain to freeze up constantly because of the graphics card! And probably millions of other people too. (actually I wonder how many people actually do buy a 'generation' of iMac... how many do they sell)

[P]

Hmm... Maybe I should wait a bit and see how bad the crashing issue is with the new iMacs, then.

mrtew: Apple sold 856'000 desktops last quarter. They no longer split the revenue onto different lines (presumably because that would show how badly the Mac Pro does...) but we know from past reports that the MBP and the iMac are Apple's two biggest sellers. Last quarter is the softest one - they average closer to a million - so call it 3.5 million desktops a year. More than half of these are iMacs. Say 2 generations per year, and you'd arrive at a figure of about 1 million iMacs per generation. Of course many generations are quite similar, like the current and the last.

[asodamiac]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Do your music tracks all have really short names? Try playing some tracks in Front Row that have long titles, so that the title scrolls in the display. Doing the 'flip' animation while the title is scrolling seems to be one of those things that's just oh so hard for the poor little GPU to handle, so that once it's been doing that for a few minutes, you get a lockup. You'll know it when the screen goes black - the music will of course keep playing, because it's not the whole computer that's locked up, just the UI. That won't be much of a consolation though, since you'll have to do the three-finger salute to get back to being able to do anything with your computer again.

Hey Charles, I was just curious and I tried this on my new iMac (yesterday's release) and I didn't seem to have any issues, though I'm not sure if I am doing the test the right way.

I loaded up a play list in iTunes with song titles are are very song, and then opened up Front Row and played this playlist. I waited for each song to start scrolling before forwarding to the next track. Doing this, I had no issues.

I have the 20" iMac with the HD2600.

[Eug]

The HD2600 doesn't have the problem. It's only with nVidia GPUs apparently.

[Simon]

I have not been seeing any of the issues CharlesS reported on my MBP with its nVidia 8600M GT.

OTOH I can confirm that the nVidia drivers are filling up my system.log with all kinds of junk messages. Something my ATI drivers never did. In addition some screen wake after sleep issues were certainly linked to the nVidia drivers. Again something I had never experienced with ATI GPUs in my older MBPs or PBs.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by asodamiac 

I loaded up a play list in iTunes with song titles are are very song, and then opened up Front Row and played this playlist. I waited for each song to start scrolling before forwarding to the next track. Doing this, I had no issues.

Aside from the fact that your graphics card isn't an NVidia, this isn't what is needed to do to reproduce it. It's not as it forwards to the next track - you leave it on the same track. The issue is the "flip" animation it does when playing a track. At first, the album art is on the right side, and at some point, it flips over to the left side. Later on, it flips back. This is what causes it. It doesn't happen every time it flips, nor does it happen immediately - you have to have been listening for a while. So listening to a single song or something wouldn't do it, but if you try to listen to an entire album, and the track names in the album are all long, chances are, you'll get bit.

Originally Posted by Simon 

I have not been seeing any of the issues CharlesS reported on my MBP with its nVidia 8600M GT.

OTOH I can confirm that the nVidia drivers are filling up my system.log with all kinds of junk messages. Something my ATI drivers never did. In addition some screen wake after sleep issues were certainly linked to the nVidia drivers. Again something I had never experienced with ATI GPUs in my older MBPs or PBs.

Do the logs start with the kernel dumping some hex data, and then a bunch of "kernel[0]: NVChannel(GL): Graphics channel timeout!" and "kernel[0]: NVChannel(GL): Graphics channel exception!" type stuff? Because if so, you're getting the bug - you just haven't let Front Row run long enough. Let it keep on playing - try listen to a whole album that has long tracks. If you manage to get through the album, you've got better luck than I do. Eventually, the GPU will just give up and you'll get the lockup. To me, it usually happens less than 10 minutes in, but sometimes it takes longer.

I should have mentioned that this problem occurs in 10.5.2 with the Leopard Graphics Update. If you're running Tiger or something, you probably won't see it, as the dodgy drivers showed up, as I understand it, with the LGU.

[asodamiac]

Ahh I see. Thanks for clearing that up guys.

It's been a day and so far everything is smooth sailing

[Kenneth]

I have never experience any weirdness on my MBP with a 256MB GeForce 8600M GT. Will see how it goes on my new iMac later this week.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by asodamiac 

Does anyone know if Apple has a "grace period" for students who buy a new computer before their summer free-iPod promotion? My G4 Powerbook is circling the drain right now and I need a new computer soon. Even if Apple doesn't have this "grace period" I'll have to spring for a new computer within the week.

Actually, I may head down to the Apple store today to pick up the new iMac. A new iPod would be nice, but my 4th generation iPod is still going strong

There is no grace period, and there is no guarantee that they're going to do a summer i-Pod promotion. The reason they did one last year was because of the new video Nano announcement; they offered the non-video Nano as a way to clear inventory of an end-of-life model.

[Full-Auto]

Apple iMac 3.06GHz unboxing, hands-on, and benchmarking - Engadget

There are the Engadget speed test results. Actually, it's pretty impressive... although I wish they had included a 2.8 Extreme vs. the 2.4. It is quite a bit faster than my MBP.