[oharag]

Hopefully this is correct thread to post this question in. Understand that I'm a Mac Freak. I've been using Mac since 1987 (Mac SE). Currently I have an iMac 350 MHz and an iBook 700 MHz.

Unfortuneatly, VirtualPC just doesn't cut it when emulating a PC. I'm an engineer that needs to run high end CAD and FEA analysis. I've comtemplated in the past in purchasing a cheapo PC off the shelve to run these programs while keeping my Mac to maintain sanity. I thought just came to me to build my own PC clone using cheapo parts. Hopefully by keeping the costs low I will not feel too bad in using a computer from the Dark Side at home. Has anyone built a cheapo PC? Any suggestions for vendors to buy from (ie Tigerdirect)? I would like a dual processing motherboard with either a Intel P4 or AMD chips (hopefully running at the latest speeds). If I purchase a componets (ie HD, memory, Monitor) I may be able to reuse them in future Macs (so all is not lost). I believe I've seen motherboards going for $150-$250, processors can be $150-$350. I have no clue for other components (powersupplies, memory, HD). If I can build this system for less than $1,000 that would be great. What does everyone else think?????

PS Please do not flame me. I'm serious here.

[euphras]

I�m sure nobody will flame, your circumstances are forcing you. AFAIK you aren�t better (cheaper) off, when you build your PC on your own, because the prices of fully equipped systems are lower than when you buy the components and do it on your own.

[Spliffdaddy]

If you wish to keep the price under $1000, forget about an Intel-based dual-processor solution.

Here's what I'd do, instead.

Motherboard: Tyan Tiger MP (S2460) $175

http://www.tyan.com/products/html/tigermp.html

Processors: 2 - AMD AthlonXP 1900+ $270 ($135 ea)

RAM: Micron 384MB PC2100DDR Registered $150

Video: Radeon 9000, 64MB DDR+DVI+TVOUT + Power DVD $75

Hard drive: 100GB (pick a brand you like) $120

Case: whatever you want. including decent powersupply. avg $70

Soundcard: CREATIVE LABS SOUND BLASTER LIVE! 5.1 $35

NIC: 10/100 pick one $15

Optical drive: Lite On 40X12X48 CDRW RTL40125S-OEM BLACK $61


Total: $971

Apple doesn't make anything that fast.

[Spliffdaddy]

check prices at www.pricewatch.com

ignore lowest prices - the retailers are likely unreliable

I like www.newegg.com unless I can get the item significantly cheaper somewhere else (that's still reliable).

Double check to make sure AthlonXP processors will work in SMP on the Tiger motherboard. Last I checked the AthlonXP worked just as well as the AthlonMP, AMD's only supported multiprocessor cpu. The AthlonMP is not substantially different than the XP series, but the MP carries a higher price tag. Add an extra $50 for each CPU if you prefer the AthlonMP over the XP.

If you're serious about building your own machine, I'd be glad to help you with specific hardware choices. The items in my above post were chosen in about 3 minutes - with little regard to current specials or 'better bang for the buck'. In most cases you can spend slightly more money to get something much better.

[Ganesha]

Don't forget...

Windows XP Home/Pro/Stolen... of course the last one is 'free' , the others will cost you a pretty penny.

[Spliffdaddy]

If you want a bargain x86 SMP machine and you don't need today's processing speed all that much - look no further than ebay.

Here's my "treasure of the week" - an underpriced high quality machine. You can't hardly buy the Asus XG-DLS motherboard for $375.

It would cost something close to $700 to build this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...052617372&rd=1

[Ken_F2]

ohareg,

If I were building a dream dual, I would go for a dual Xeon solution. In October, Intel is releasing its next-generation chipset for dual Xeon systems, known as "Placer" (E7501). It offers dual channel DDR2100 (DDR333 unofficially), 533Mhz bus, and AGP8X.



The 2.66GHz and 2.8GHz Xeons will be available next week, with the 3.06GHz Xeon following in January (3.06GHz P4 coming on Sept 27). According to this article, the Xeon 2.66 will cost $433 and the 2.4GHz Xeon will drop to $240 at that time. The Xeon 2.8GHz will drop to $455 in a few months, with the Xeon 2.66GHz dropping to about $230.

Intel's dual channel DDR server chipsets tend to be more expensive, so it'd cost you about $300-$350 for dual Xeon motherboard with this new chipset featuring dual channel DDR and 533MHz system bus, plus another $480 total for two 2.4GHz Xeon processors with Hyperthreading and 533MHz bus.

AMD's "Hammer" Opteron will offer up to 8-way glueless multiprocessing, but those solutions aren't expected until June or July of 2003 (the "Hammer" Athlon 3400+ for single processor systems should be out in January).

[Spaldings]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
check prices at www.pricewatch.com

ignore lowest prices - the retailers are likely unreliable

I like www.newegg.com unless I can get the item significantly cheaper somewhere else (that's still reliable).

Double check to make sure AthlonXP processors will work in SMP on the Tiger motherboard. Last I checked the AthlonXP worked just as well as the AthlonMP, AMD's only supported multiprocessor cpu. The AthlonMP is not substantially different than the XP series, but the MP carries a higher price tag. Add an extra $50 for each CPU if you prefer the AthlonMP over the XP.

If you're serious about building your own machine, I'd be glad to help you with specific hardware choices. The items in my above post were chosen in about 3 minutes - with little regard to current specials or 'better bang for the buck'. In most cases you can spend slightly more money to get something much better.

I was just about to post a link to pricewatch. I was contemplating building my own PC. The basic specs were XP1800+, 512 MB PC2100 GF4ti4200, WD120 special edition, antec case, don't remember the mobo, but the total cost was about 900. The RAM is cheaper now (from Crucial about $63 per 256 MB stick now. Also the proc and vid card are also cheaper, so it would probably come in around $750. A machine like this will be plenty fast and would complement your mac nicely

[oharag]

Awesome discussion guys (gals).

Any thoughts about some of the components that I may be purchasing and their ability to be used in current or future Macs. If I purchase an IDE HD that can be used in the Mac? What about DDR Memory? Can a graphics card (AGP 4X) be used both in the PC and Mac with only driver changes necessary?

The Xenon solution seems a little pricey. The Xenon does have a large onchip cache right?

I may just go with the AMD solution. Where's a good place to find chips?

If I purchase an Apple LCD screen (17") can I connect this to the PC?

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by oharag:
Awesome discussion guys (gals).

Any thoughts about some of the components that I may be purchasing and their ability to be used in current or future Macs. If I purchase an IDE HD that can be used in the Mac? What about DDR Memory? Can a graphics card (AGP 4X) be used both in the PC and Mac with only driver changes necessary?

The Xenon solution seems a little pricey. The Xenon does have a large onchip cache right?

I may just go with the AMD solution. Where's a good place to find chips?

If I purchase an Apple LCD screen (17") can I connect this to the PC?

Yes, pretty much any IDE hard drive will work in a Mac. There might be a limit to the disk size supported by the IDE controller (ie 130GB) - depending on which Mac you have.

As for DDR memory, I'm unsure. Most PeeCees use PC2100 (266MHz FSB) non-registered 2.5volt The Tyan Tiger MP motherboard only supports Registered (ECC) DDR at speeds of PC2100 or higher. Registered DDR is more expensive than non-registered - no idea what Apple uses, but it's easy to find out.

There probably aren't many peecee video cards that would work in a Mac with a simple driver change. The firmware on the video card must contain Mac-specific code. Certain peecee video cards can be "flashed", that is, updated with different (in this case, Mac) firmware so they'll work in a Mac. You generally need a peecee to run the "flash" utility on the video card.

Intel's Xeon still comes in a variety of flavors. The 'true' large cache (1mb & 2mb) versions are limited to 900MHz, come in huge black Slot2 plastic cases, still use the "Pentium3" nomenclature, and cost two grand a piece. The Pentium4 Xeon variant is a socketed processor with a smaller L2 cache and improved architecture. While they still aren't inexpensive, they are a fraction of the cost of the 700MHz & 900MHz large cache P3 Xeon.

A good place to find computer hardware is www.newegg.com or other online retailers. A local shop won't have the selection or pricing advantage of an online shop. If in doubt, check the feedback of an online shop before you send them any money > www.resellerratings.com

get a video card with DVI and VGA outputs and nearly any monitor will be supported (the one I listed would work, but prolly can't be flashed to work in a Mac).

As far as AGP specifications go, rest assured that AGP 2X, 4X, 8X whatever is exactly the same in both PC and Mac. AGP is an "agreed upon" standard (like USB and PCI for example) which requires adherence on the part of the computer manufacturer before it can be called an "AGP port". Backward compatibility of the port is a big bonus. An AGP 4X slot can support an AGP or AGP 2X video card, too.

[oharag]

Any thoughts about Pentium 4 Dual Processing systems? Is it that AMD's are just cheaper? I went to CNET.com and they had an article that states the newer Pentium 4's (based on new manufacturing processes) blow AMD's out of the water. Thoughts?

What's the difference between AMD XP and MP Processors? Does the XP versions work in the Motherboard: Tyan Tiger MP (S2460)? (Maybe you answered this below?)

Okay let's go with the:
- Motherboard: Tyan Tiger MP (S2460) $159.00
http://www.micropro.com/item.htm

- AMD XP 1800+ $81
http://www.compuvest.com/engine/default1024.asp?26855

- Video: Radeon Pro 9000 you state $75 where can you get this?
There is also a Radeon 9000 version for the Mac. I guess I'll call ATI Tech Support for possible carry over to the Mac. The cheapest I found at Pricescan.com was $100.

- Memory: 512MB DDR SDRAM 266MHz CL2.5 PC2100 $109
http://www.macsolutions.com/
This memory is from a Mac vendor. I do not know whether this is ECC compliant. Directly from the Mac site:
"If you don't purchase memory directly from Apple, make sure that the RAM modules conform to the JEDEC specification. Check with your memory vendor to ensure that the RAM module supports the correct timing modes and that their Serial Presence Detect (SPD) feature has been programmed properly, as called out in the JEDEC specification."
Another Mac site stated that their Mac memory (PC2100) is also compatible with AMD and Intel systems:
"This module is compatible with the following PC/Wintel Computers:
* Compatible with Intel / AMD Process based PCs capable of using a module of the Specifications listed below. Our modules comply with JEDEC Specifications, document JESD79.
* These modules are also supported by any system using DDR200, CAS-2.0 Latency chips.
* Product Specifications

* Size: 512MB

* 184-pin DIMM

* DDR PC2100

* Data Rate = 266MHz

* Cas = 2.5

* Meets or Exceeds Apple Specifications"

-HD:Western Digital Caviar 100GB 7200 Ultra ATA/100 $125.00
IBM Deskstar 120GXP 120GB Ultra ATA/100 $132.00.
Which one would you get?

- DLINK AIRPLUS 22MBPS WIRELESS PCI ADAPTER DWL520+ $99
www.d-link.com
I currently have a D-Link 614+ wireless router. My Apple iBook has an Airport card in it. The above adapter takes advantage of D-Links capability to achieve 22 Mbits/sec (normal 11 Mb/sec). I do not think it is necessary to get a ethernet card if I go with the wireless route.

-Case:CHAS ATX12V FT 300W P/S 3 5.25 2 3.5 P4 BGE $53
www.ems-computing.com
Does this also include a 300 Watt Power Supply? Is 300 Watts okay with a dual processing system with multiple HD, video?

- CD-ROM: I guess I need a CD-Rom. I have a burner in my iBook. I guess it's just as cheap to get the burner you mentioned.
Lite-On 40x/12x/48x CD-RW EIDE for $46 shipped
A reader found the retail-boxed Lite-On 40x/12x/48x CD-RW EIDE drive for $50.95 with free shipping at Dell's Software and Peripherals store. (Search for "Lite-On 12x" to find it.) Already the lowest price we've seen by $10, use coupon code "8331B99C4927" to knock another $5 off for a total of $45.95.


OF COURSE I WOULD LOVE TO USE ANY COUPONS/REBATES TO MY ADVANTAGE.

Thanks for your input?

[nana4]

The TigerMP require Registered DDR for proper stable operation. Usually such modules are also ECC. The important part is the Registered spec. Macs use unbuffered memory, so the link you gave is for unbuffered.

Compatible modules would include these:

http://www.crucial.com/store/PartSpe...ule=CT3272Y265

http://www.crucial.com/store/PartSpe...ule=CT6472Y265

Personally I avoid Crucial in Tyan Tigers, better results with Mushkin.

Definitely the WD over the IBM.

One thing not to skimp on with a dual Athlon system is a crappy case and PSU. I would recommend the Antec 1080 with 430W TruePower PSU, a very nice case with plenty of airflow, and temp sensitive fans. It also has USB/Firewire ports in the front. These are available at CompUSA etc if online shipping is too high.

Compuvest doesn't look so good, there are much better resellers out there:

http://www.resellerratings.com/seller2059.html

Also those CPU's don't come with a heatsink/fan, you would need to get two seperately. For your purchase, seeing you are new to building, I would recommend spending the small premium to get a retail package, this comes with an AMD approved HSF, as well as 3 year warranty.

Retail XP1900:

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduc...tby=14&order=1

$95 each

There is the possibility that you will need to "connect the L5 bridge" to get the XP's to work in dual mode on your TigerMP. If this sounds too hard, then go with the AthlonMP, which is certified for dual use and doesn't require any modifications to the CPU.

MP1900 retail:

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduc...ry=1028&page=2

$149.

Oh yes, and newegg have the 80GB WD special edition with 8MB cache for $104, prob a better deal than the 100GB WD you are looking at.

[nana4]

Originally posted by oharag:
- DLINK AIRPLUS 22MBPS WIRELESS PCI ADAPTER DWL520+ $99
www.d-link.com
I currently have a D-Link 614+ wireless router. My Apple iBook has an Airport card in it. The above adapter takes advantage of D-Links capability to achieve 22 Mbits/sec (normal 11 Mb/sec). I do not think it is necessary to get a ethernet card if I go with the wireless route.

Newegg have that card for $79, plus there is a $15 dollar mail-in rebate:

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduc...tby=14&order=1

[Ken_F2]

Intel's Xeon still comes in a variety of flavors. The 'true' large cache (1mb & 2mb) versions are limited to 900MHz, come in huge black Slot2 plastic cases, still use the "Pentium3" nomenclature, and cost two grand a piece. The Pentium4 Xeon variant is a socketed processor with a smaller L2 cache and improved architecture. While they still aren't inexpensive, they are a fraction of the cost of the 700MHz & 900MHz large cache P3 Xeon.

This isn't accurate. Intel has discontinued all P3-based Xeon processors. Intel has two versions of the P4-based Xeon; one with 512Kb L2 cache for single and dual processor based workstations, and another with 1Mb L2 cache for 4-way, 8-way, and greater multiprocessing systems. The P4-based Xeon with 512Kb L2 cache is available in up to a 2.8GHz version as of next week, while the much more expensive version with 1Mb L2 cache will max out at 2.0GHz this year. See Intel's web site for product info, and the Inquirer for pricing info.

[nana4]

Xeon DP: for 2 way
Xeon MP: for 4-8 way, >512KB cache.

[oharag]

Concerning the difference between AMD XP vs. MP Processors. From the following article:

http://hardware.earthweb.com/main/ar...978161,00.html

An excerpt follows:
Saying that the AMD label guarantees lower prices, however, is simplistic. The company seems to have taken at least one page from Intel's book in that only Athlon MP processors are certified for multiprocessing use, although there's no physical difference between the Palomino-cored Athlon XP and MP. (Indeed, AMD was talking about offering a Duron MP not long ago, but the market has yet to voice any measurable demand for one.)

The main difference is that AMD subjects Athlon MP chips to more rigorous multiprocessing tests; the lack of similar certification doesn't necessarily mean that Athlon XP or Duron CPUs won't work in a dual-processor configuration, but that it would entail more risk than the price savings would warrant.

The extra testing translates into slightly higher price for the Athlon MP versions, so at the speeds AMD currently has available (topping out at 1.6GHz for the Athlon MP 1900+), the Pentium 4 Xeon is a bit more costly, but competitive. Once you reach the 2.0GHz or 2.2GHz P4 Xeon level, by contrast, all hell breaks loose, but that's standard pricing procedure for Intel.

It would seem that AMD is playing marketing games here.

[nana4]

That article is outdated now, the AthlonMP is available at 2200+ (1.8GHz)

[Mac Zealot]

Don't get an antec case.

They look like every other damned custom built PC.

If you want something nice, formal, and preferably, cheap, try going for a nice case like this: has a power supply as well:

http://www.amamax.com/blue228b.html

Or if you prefer aluminum, I have one similar to this, they weigh almost nothing, and are relatively strong:

http://www.amamax.com/amatek288sb.html

One thing you must always remember when building a PC: The wattage of the power supply isn't half as important as the quality of it (a 250w enermax that's built really nicely is waaay better than a 400w generic power supply).

And if you really must have an antec-like case; you can try the nifty colored versions:

http://www.amamax.com/atxfulltower.html

And if you really want a pre built machine that is pushed to the limits (the type that satisfies spliffdady's needs), may I suggest:

http://www.ocsystem.com/orbehovinpen.html

Unbelievably they clocked a pentium 4 to 3ghz... ahhahahahahhaa


Other notes: the blue windowed aluminum case has very good ventillation, as I recall seeing a test where it ran a certain config 10 degrees cooler. The fan placement on that side can also be handy (as some motherboards actually have the cpu socket DIRECTLY UNDER THAT SPOT!!!!)

So anyway, hope I didn't overload you with info there, but good luck.

[Spliffdaddy]

Spliff doesn't like any store-bought cases. They're like bellybuttons and Camaros - eveybody has one.

Spliff builds his own...

www.dwpg.com

[Nimisys]

Bah... square rectangular casees, every one knows spherical is where its at

[Spliffdaddy]

spherical?

hmmm.

*writes that down*

[itomato]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
If you wish to keep the price under $1000, forget about an Intel-based dual-processor solution.

Here's what I'd do, instead...

...Total: $971

Apple doesn't make anything that fast.

I agree 100%. That's the system I'd build if I was gonna build another dual proc PC.

When you look at the difference in cost between that and a dual G4, kinda makes you scratch your head, don't it?

[fat mac moron]

Don't go too cheap on the components though, like buying some bargain bin NIC cards off some "discount" table. I purchased a 40 gig hard drive a few weeks ago that was "a wee bit cheaper" than the normal Western Digital's that I usually purchase. It's noisy & seems a tad slower than my original hard drive (seek time). Yeah, I saved like 20 bucks, but it seems hardly worth it now.

[oharag]

itomato, compare an off the shelf dual processing system from Apple to either IBM, DELL or Gateway and you may change your thinking. I tried pricing a dual processing system from DELL that came close (which is always difficult to accomplish) to an Apple Dual 1.25 Ghz system. The Apple system costs around 3,299. The DELL system costs around (Dell Workstation 530) $3,706. I tried (as mentioned) to compare apples to Apples. This had a dual Xenon Processor running at 1.8 Ghz. I felt that this best mimics the 1.25 in the Apple. My company currently uses IBM systems. When I checked for a dual processing system from IBM (Intellistation M Pro line) they had one for $15,000!!!!! This system came with dual Itaniums (which cost 1,000 plus each).

Sure, anyway can build a cheapo PC system for much less than the above companies. Where's the support? What about reliability? You take the risk, and reap the money saving rewards. Would it be cool to build an off the shelf cheapo Mac? Sure. But unfortunately you cannot purchase Apple ROMS at the moment.

[oharag]

Here's info on turning a AMD XP into an MP.

Concerning the difference between AMD XP vs. MP Processors. From the following article:

http://hardware.earthweb.com/main/a..._978161,00.html

An excerpt follows:
Saying that the AMD label guarantees lower prices, however, is simplistic. The company seems to have taken at least one page from Intel's book in that only Athlon MP processors are certified for multiprocessing use, although there's no physical difference between the Palomino-cored Athlon XP and MP. (Indeed, AMD was talking about offering a Duron MP not long ago, but the market has yet to voice any measurable demand for one.)

The main difference is that AMD subjects Athlon MP chips to more rigorous multiprocessing tests; the lack of similar certification doesn't necessarily mean that Athlon XP or Duron CPUs won't work in a dual-processor configuration, but that it would entail more risk than the price savings would warrant.

The extra testing translates into slightly higher price for the Athlon MP versions, so at the speeds AMD currently has available (topping out at 1.6GHz for the Athlon MP 1900+), the Pentium 4 Xeon is a bit more costly, but competitive. Once you reach the 2.0GHz or 2.2GHz P4 Xeon level, by contrast, all hell breaks loose, but that's standard pricing procedure for Intel.

It would seem that AMD is playing marketing games here. My question is can I use the cheaper XP chip in a MP PC motherboard?

Also, I'm currently a Mac user interested in building a super cheap MP PC clone. I have another thread going on at www.macnn.com asking for help in building a cheap PC clone. If anyone's interested in chimming in I would appreciate your help. The thread is here:

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread....threadid=122661