[besson3c]

Chongo, my suggestion: find evidence that allows you to form an opinion, rather than looking for evidence that somehow supports your preexisting opinions. If you take this to heart and have success putting this to practice, you can help several others here (on both sides) with this same problem... That would be grand!

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Hey, that is no less viable than thinking that Obama is a secret Muslim/terrorist/Socialist/Communist/Marxist/Dictator/kitten killer!

Ummm. It's no secret that Blairbama is a socialist.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Ummm. It's no secret that Blairbama is a socialist.

Again, I'm not going to do your work for you in actually making a case.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Again, I'm not going to do your work for you in actually making a case.

I don't have to make a case. It's in front of your eyes, if only you'd lift the veil and take a peek.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I don't have to make a case. It's in front of your eyes, if only you'd lift the veil and take a peek.

That's simply an intellectually lazy cop-out, and I think you know this.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

That's simply an intellectual lazy cop-out, and I think you know this.

We will see.
Have popcorn, will wait.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

We will see.
Have popcorn, will wait.

No, whether you are right or wrong, the point still stands: your refusal to make a case is intellectually lazy. Whether you are right is a different matter.

[RAILhead]

What is Nobama's Citizen Security Force?

What will Nobama do if a parent doesn't want their child to work the 50 hours of community service?

How can one say that "asking the top 2%" to pay more taxes so their wealth can be shared -- but doing it without caring to hear their answer -- is NOT Socialist?

What will the middle and high school children receive in return for the labor Nobama will force them to do?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

No, whether you are right or wrong, the point still stands: your refusal to make a case is intellectually lazy.

Yeah. Popcorn is much better in a comfy chair.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

What is Nobama's Citizen Security Force?

Democratic Youth League?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

What will Nobama do if a parent doesn't want their child to work the 50 hours of community service?

Are you talking about the tuition credit? If so, wouldn't the answer be that they don't participate in this optional program, and they can pay for their college tuition out of their pocket instead?

How can one say that "asking the top 2%" to pay more taxes so their wealth can be shared -- but doing it without caring to hear their answer -- is NOT Socialist?

Since when does anybody have a say as to how much tax they pay? What you are saying, in essence, is that tax is socialist in general. You can make that argument, but that has nothing to do with Obama and his tax policy.

What will the middle and high school children receive in return for the labor Nobama will force them to do?

No clue what you are talking about here, you'll have to be more specific.

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Are you talking about the tuition credit? If so, wouldn't the answer be that they don't participate in this optional program, and they can pay for their college tuition out of their pocket instead?

No, that's for college -- he's planning the same thing for MIDDLE and HIGH school kids. It's on his "change" site.

Since when does anybody have a say as to how much tax they pay? What you are saying, in essence, is that tax is socialist in general. You can make that argument, but that has nothing to do with Obama and his tax policy.

No, I'm saying he's taking more from higher earners, and he is. AND, he's taking that money without consent and "spreading" it.

No clue what you are talking about here, you'll have to be more specific.

See above.

[RAILhead]

Oh, and you missed the whole Citizen Security Force thing. What's up with that?

[Doofy]

There's no point RAIL. Bess donned the veil of shroudy goodness a while back.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

No, that's for college -- he's planning the same thing for MIDDLE and HIGH school kids. It's on his "change" site.

Link?

No, I'm saying he's taking more from higher earners, and he is. AND, he's taking that money without consent and "spreading" it.

What kind of consent are you talking about? We are already spreading wealth, for example with earned income tax credits. You will need to be more specific.

As far as citizen security force, I've yet to read anything about the specifics of this either - whether this is an organization, concept, or what.

[The Crook]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

No, that's for college -- he's planning the same thing for MIDDLE and HIGH school kids. It's on his "change" site.

How do you know it's the "same thing?"

Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by setting a goal that all middle school and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year and by developing a plan so that all college students who conduct 100 hours of community service receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free.

You're making claims without any evidence whatsoever, "railhead." And your claims don't even make sense anyway. The college plan isn't mandatory, so if the plans are the same, then the high school plan wouldn't be mandatory either. Therefore, Obama wouldn't "do anything" to parents who don't want their children to do 50 hours of community service.

[RAILhead]

Right -- more fluffy words with no content. Why DON'T we know those things? What's he hiding?

[RAILhead]

And what about the mandatory change to force colleges to have 25% of their work-study programs be with "community service"? Service doing what? What about kids already employed? What about schools having to replace typical student-held jobs with mainline workers? Increase in cost? Overhead?

etc etc etc

[Doofy]

http://change.gov/agenda/education/

Barack Obama and Joe Biden will create a national "Make College A Reality" initiative that has a bold goal to increase students taking AP or college-level classes nationwide 50 percent by 2016

Yep. See Blair.
In the UK, "everyone" now gets to go to college, no matter how stupid they are. And *everyone* gets a qualification at the end of it, usually with an "A+" tagged onto it.

[Doofy]

http://change.gov/agenda/education/

Obama and Biden will streamline the financial aid process by eliminating the current federal financial aid application and enabling families to apply simply by checking a box on their tax form, authorizing their tax information to be used, and eliminating the need for a separate application.

Major database stuff coming your way.

[The Crook]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Right -- more fluffy words with no content. Why DON'T we know those things? What's he hiding?

This is not a serious response.

[Doofy]

http://change.gov/agenda/service/

Obama and Biden will set a goal that all middle and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year.

Indentured something or other.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

http://change.gov/agenda/education/


Yep. See Blair.
In the UK, "everyone" now gets to go to college, no matter how stupid they are. And *everyone* gets a qualification at the end of it, usually with an "A+" tagged onto it.

I'm torn about this. We clearly need to do more so that our population is better educated and prepared to compete globally, but I'm not sure how increasing the number of people that can go to college will help. To me, the problem needs to be solved by starting with changing how we value and perceive education. Maybe having people work for it will cause them to assign more value to it, I don't know.

[Doofy]

http://change.gov/agenda/energyenvironment/

Enact a Windfall Profits Tax to Provide a $1,000 Emergency Energy Rebate to American Families.

Windfall tax - a favourite method of Blair's.

[Doofy]

http://change.gov/agenda/energyenvironment/

Increase Fuel Economy Standards.

Another favourite of Blair and the EU. Basically means you're all going to be driving slow, uncomfortable cars which you can barely fit into. But hey, you'll all be slimmer by that time from all that waiting in the bread queues.

[The Crook]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

http://change.gov/agenda/service/

Indentured something or other.

Keep talking.

You're only embarrassing the conservative movement by tying community service requirements to "indentured servitude."

[Doofy]

http://change.gov/agenda/energyenvironment/

Make the U.S. a Leader on Climate Change.

...join the race to the bottom and say goodbye to your economy. If there's anything left of it by then, that is.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by The Crook 

Keep talking.

You're only embarrassing the conservative movement by tying community service requirements to "indentured servitude."

Well what the f else is it?

I guess I could have said "slavery" but then that'd open up a whole big bucket of worms now wouldn't it?

[Doofy]

Interesting - the "agenda" drop-down seems to have stopped working for me.

[Doofy]

I read about "wire fraud" today. Interesting.

Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

How on earth do politicians not get nicked for wire fraud?

[The Crook]

I'm

[The Crook]

posting

[The Crook]

like Doofy.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

http://change.gov/agenda/education/


Yep. See Blair.
In the UK, "everyone" now gets to go to college, no matter how stupid they are. And *everyone* gets a qualification at the end of it, usually with an "A+" tagged onto it.

Wrong, Doofy. After the Glorious Change of Comrade Blair EVERY student get Double A plus a Star on the end! Everyone is equal in the New World! The stupid student is equal to the teacher. The chav in the street is equal to the police. The lazy employee is equal to the employer. The hippy who burns scientific laboratories is equal to the Dear Leader. We must be politically correct and respect everyone!

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

How on earth do politicians not get nicked for wire fraud?

They pay off the people who catch them. I was part of a triangle like that in 1995 which involved dirty money being taken Denzel stylee by cops. I saw it all happen personally!

[TheMosco]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

No, that's for college -- he's planning the same thing for MIDDLE and HIGH school kids. It's on his "change" site.

I had to do that in middle school. I also had to do it for High School. National Honor Society requires it, and my high school requires additional hours on top of that. Alot of high schools and middle schools in my area require that.

[TheMosco]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

http://change.gov/agenda/education/


Yep. See Blair.
In the UK, "everyone" now gets to go to college, no matter how stupid they are. And *everyone* gets a qualification at the end of it, usually with an "A+" tagged onto it.

Wait, how is getting people more to take AP classes or college level classes having everyone go to college? Do you know what AP classes are?

[subego]

I accidentally posted this in the wrong thread.

The entire agenda section of change.gov has been yanked.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by subego 

The entire agenda section of change.gov has been yanked.

Well, there's a bit of that "change" he was promising.
Cue mental image of Winston Smith sitting in front of Dreamweaver.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by The Crook 

Keep talking.

You're only embarrassing the conservative movement by tying community service requirements to "indentured servitude."

Suggesting that a British citizen somehow embarrasses the American conservative movement is as absurd as permitting the American conservative movement to be defined by those who oppose conservatism.

[Shaddim]

The entire agenda section of change.gov has been yanked.

Was time to remove the evidence, I suppose.

[subego]

Here's a screencap of the former "America Serves" page.

[King Bob On The Cob]

Originally Posted by TheMosco 

Wait, how is getting people more to take AP classes or college level classes having everyone go to college? Do you know what AP classes are?

How many places in this county are kids denied AP/Honors/IB type education? If it is offered, and they don't take it, then perhaps it is simply because they are not ready to take an advanced level class. Having these requirements that more people take college level courses will dumb down the class for everyone involved I'm afraid.

[subego]

Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob 

How many places in this county are kids denied AP/Honors/IB type education? If it is offered, and they don't take it, then perhaps it is simply because they are not ready to take an advanced level class. Having these requirements that more people take college level courses will dumb down the class for everyone involved I'm afraid.

Having more people take AP/college classes = Goal
Making it a requirement = Method

Goal ≠ Method

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

1) Obama was the lawyer of this case, not the plantiff

Did anyone claim Obama was the plaintiff?

2) There was no mention of what kinds of loans were involved

There certainly was. Denied African-American requests for loans and those requested in specific areas of Illinois.

3) The settlement: what evidence do you have that the people requesting loans couldn't afford them? My evidence to the contrary is the outcome of the case (i.e. changes to ensure loan policies were race neutral), what is yours?

Under 33A of the settlement;
Non-Monetary Benefits for All Settlement Class Members.
(i) Lending Consortium. Citibank will undertake efforts to organize a lending consortium
consisting of Citibank and several other lenders in the Chicagoland area to assist low to
moderate income loan applicants in obtaining mortgages.

Under the above provision, combined household income cannot exceed 80% of the area's median income range and there are also provisions for credit counseling etc...

So really, despite the outcome of this case, your argument is essentially your gut feeling that these people couldn't afford the loans, that Citibank was innocent of racial discrimination, and that these were mortgages and not car loans, business capital loans, or any other kind of loan.

This was a settlement. The case was not closed as affirming Citibank's culpability nor was the plaintiff's case affirmed. They both settled that the costs of investigation and continued litigation was burdensome to both parties.

[TheMosco]

Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob 

How many places in this county are kids denied AP/Honors/IB type education? If it is offered, and they don't take it, then perhaps it is simply because they are not ready to take an advanced level class. Having these requirements that more people take college level courses will dumb down the class for everyone involved I'm afraid.

Actually, I know a lot of kids that couldn't take AP classes for several reasons. Most of the time the schools couldn't afford to add extra classes. And when AP classes were added, they didn't have the ability to offer a wide variety of AP classes. In fact, I think the college board canceled a couple programs this year because of the lack of funding(Computer Science AB for example). Just because he wants more people to take them, doesn't mean these people won't be qualified.

[besson3c]

ebuddy: of course the settlement in and of itself doesn't prove the righteousness of other side, but in absence of the proper research that would be needed to investigate this case, it provides more than Chongo's gut feelings.

I'm still not seeing evidence of what types of loans were involved. Your response simply addresses who and where they were intended for.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

ebuddy: of course the settlement in and of itself doesn't prove the righteousness of other side, but in absence of the proper research that would be needed to investigate this case, it provides more than Chongo's gut feelings.

I'm still not seeing evidence of what types of loans were involved. Your response simply addresses who and where they were intended for.

just to set the record straight, it was PaperNotes that brought up ACORN suing CitiBank, not me

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

It's not a wild claim, Comrade. You offend Our Dear Leader by not giving due credit! Major news channels reported the names of Democrats involved, of ACORN's court cases and grass roots campaigns, and Obama's involvement in suing and threatening banks to give mortgages to people who couldn't afford them. Comrade Obama is also the third biggest recipient of donations from Freddie and Fannie. Now he will save us!

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Care to provide a link?

I provided a link to one of many websites that have the info on the court case. All one has to do is Googe Buycks Roberson V Citibank Fed Sav Bank

Speaking of Freddie Mac, Rahm Emanuel was appointed to the Board of Directors by Bill Clinton in 2000 and served until he ran for Congress
http://www.businessandmedia.org/arti...106133228.aspx
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/st...6201900&page=1

[PaperNotes]

And Obama represented them in one case.

[PaperNotes]

Nobody is going to allow The Obama Greenshirt Youth and Internal Military Force near their homes and offices

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11...t_rifle_sales/