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You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > macOS > When's 10.4 come out?

When's 10.4 come out?
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timmerk
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Feb 3, 2004, 02:19 PM
 
Don't worry, I love OS X, even DP4. I'm just asking because a friend of mine is getting a student ADC account and since it lasts only 1 year, I want to make sure he will get 10.4 for free.

They come out every year right? So I'm guessing Oct-Dec ish?

Thanks!
     
eevyl
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Feb 3, 2004, 02:37 PM
 
eevyl looks at his magic ball ... Got it! it will be released tomorrow! Do doubt about it!

Seriously, no one knows for sure. Mac OS X 10.1 was out about six months after 10.0, and six months later 10.2. Then 10.3 took almost a year, and no one really knows when 10.4 will be finished...

So, no one knows.
     
OptimusG4
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Feb 3, 2004, 02:38 PM
 
April.
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Peabo
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Feb 3, 2004, 03:25 PM
 
Probably this year at some point!
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Art Vandelay
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Feb 3, 2004, 03:37 PM
 
Originally posted by eevyl:
eevyl looks at his magic ball ... Got it! it will be released tomorrow! Do doubt about it!

Seriously, no one knows for sure. Mac OS X 10.1 was out about six months after 10.0, and six months later 10.2. Then 10.3 took almost a year, and no one really knows when 10.4 will be finished...

So, no one knows.
All releases except for 10.0 have been released about a year apart around August to October. Only 10.0 was released in March, six months prior to 10.1.
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nobitacu
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Feb 3, 2004, 04:09 PM
 
I'm going to say around the same time 10.3 was released, which is sometime Oct. if not, than Nov. but I don't see any later than that. The betas has to be out first before anyone can say about how long it has left before being released. But that's hard to tell too.

Ming
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BZ
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Feb 3, 2004, 04:19 PM
 
Yeah... I think "The Steve" likes the yearly update of the OS. I would guess (if you made me) that we will see 10.4 "Lion" at the WDC in June followed by a lot of complaining about the price in June/July/August and it will finally ship in Oct/November in time for holiday sales.

BZ
     
Millennium
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Feb 3, 2004, 05:04 PM
 
If he only wants the student account for 10.4, he may as well just buy 10.4; it'd be cheaper.
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gorickey
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Feb 3, 2004, 05:20 PM
 
Originally posted by Millennium:
If he only wants the student account for 10.4, he may as well just buy 10.4; it'd be cheaper.
Exactly...
     
mitchell_pgh
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Feb 3, 2004, 06:24 PM
 
Apple can't keep charging $129 per year... I know we are all Mac addicts, but this is getting just a little crazy. Although I usually will "borrow" applications before purchasing them... I always buy OS upgrades and never install pirated OSs.

That being said, over the past two and a half years, I've paid app. $390 in OS updates.
     
Turias
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Feb 3, 2004, 06:31 PM
 
Just think about it this way:

Windows XP is $200.
XP Professional is $300.

Also compare the price of iLife with similar Windows applications.
     
MojoRising022
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Feb 3, 2004, 06:50 PM
 
I agree - Apple is making a bad habit of charging for frequent upgrades, that we - the mac faithful - wait in long lines for the night they come out. Why would they even consider stopping? Hopefully next time they will deliver more compelling and useful new features than they did with the Jaguar to Panther upgrade.
     
Graymalkin
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Feb 3, 2004, 07:07 PM
 
At $129 a new version of MacOS costs you 35� a day. If you buy two Frappucinos a week you are spending $411 a year at the very least. Cut out one of those Frappucinos a week and you'll have enough for not only OSX 10.4 but enough for iLife '05 and a pair of low cost shareware applications. If you decided Panther wasn't worthy of your $129 and skip directly from Jaguar to 10.4 it will only cost you 17� a day.
     
willed
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Feb 3, 2004, 08:07 PM
 
Originally posted by Graymalkin:
At $129 a new version of MacOS costs you 35� a day. If you buy two Frappucinos a week you are spending $411 a year at the very least. Cut out one of those Frappucinos a week and you'll have enough for not only OSX 10.4 but enough for iLife '05 and a pair of low cost shareware applications. If you decided Panther wasn't worthy of your $129 and skip directly from Jaguar to 10.4 it will only cost you 17� a day.
If only life were that easy!
     
mowogg
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Feb 3, 2004, 08:27 PM
 
Do you think they'll call it "10.4 Good Buddy"?

Sorry about the CB humor, but I couldn't resist. :->





Originally posted by timmerk:
Don't worry, I love OS X, even DP4. I'm just asking because a friend of mine is getting a student ADC account and since it lasts only 1 year, I want to make sure he will get 10.4 for free.

They come out every year right? So I'm guessing Oct-Dec ish?

Thanks!
     
nobitacu
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Feb 3, 2004, 08:46 PM
 
Either way, screenshots for 10.4 Lion should be flowing around the internet maybe 3 to 4 months before the final is released. We'll see some reviews and pictures of the beta, so it's not that long of a wait before we start hearing a lot of info about Lion.

Ming
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timmerk  (op)
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Feb 3, 2004, 08:48 PM
 
Originally posted by gorickey:
Exactly...
No, he's getting a laptop this week as well. He's a PC switcher! It's amazing! :-)
     
moonmonkey
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Feb 3, 2004, 09:30 PM
 
Originally posted by nobitacu:
Either way, screenshots for 10.4 Lion should be flowing around the internet maybe 3 to 4 months before the final is released. We'll see some reviews and pictures of the beta, so it's not that long of a wait before we start hearing a lot of info about Lion.
Ming
I don't know, they kept Panther pretty quiet.
How long was it after those "Fake" panther screenshots came out until the final was released.
     
Moonray
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Feb 3, 2004, 10:18 PM
 
Originally posted by Graymalkin:
At $129 a new version of MacOS costs you 35� a day. If you buy two Frappucinos a week you are spending $411 a year at the very least. Cut out one of those Frappucinos a week and you'll have enough for not only OSX 10.4 but enough for iLife '05 and a pair of low cost shareware applications. If you decided Panther wasn't worthy of your $129 and skip directly from Jaguar to 10.4 it will only cost you 17� a day.
Yes of course, and you should buy five vacuum cleaners a year because that's cheaper than spending vacancies in Japan. And don't tell me Japan isn't worth a trip or vacuum cleaners wouldn't make life easier.

-
     
echosphere
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Feb 3, 2004, 10:42 PM
 
WTF are you smoking moRonray?

Btw, is Lion really the name of the next release?
Or is it just Forum language? (like how we call the 867Mhz 12" PB a RevA, when really the 1Ghz should be RevA, as it is the first "revision" of the Al 12" PB, semantics, I know.)
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macdane
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Feb 4, 2004, 12:34 AM
 
I am willing to accept paying for the OS upgrade each year. However, I am concerned about third party application and driver support. Thus far, the Mac OS X upgrades have frequently broken drivers forcing the hardware vendors to upgrade their drivers. Eventually the vendors will stop upgrading the drivers for their older products so that we will be forced to upgrade our hardware (such as scanners) to support a new version of Mac OS X.

Having many OS versions commonly installed on Macs can also be very expensive for application developers to test against. Therefore, I'm guessing the application developers won't support more than the last couple OS versions. Those people/businesses who don't have the time or money to upgrade their OS every single year may not be able to buy a new applications that they want or need. Even Apple has already done this by releasing the Java and Safari update for Mac OS X 10.3 only.
     
mproud
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Feb 4, 2004, 12:44 AM
 
I like the yearly updates myself - they're a little longer than a year apart, and come out about a month to two months later than projected (remember when Panther was supposed to come out in September?)

Anyway, I'm also interested to when we'll be seeing OS X 11.0.

I think it'll work like this:

early 2/05 - 10.4 Lion released
late 4/06 - 10.5 released
early 6/07 - 10.6 released
late 8/08 - 11.0 released
     
MDiddy
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Feb 4, 2004, 12:47 AM
 
Apple's been making yearsly releases long before Mac OS X came out. From Mac OS 8 on, if I remember right. I think the fact that the upgrades are only +.1 gets to alot of people. In reality, you could call Panther Mac OS 12, given the number of improvements from Mac OS 10.0.

If there is a feature missing in Mac OS X currently that you need-wait. If not, enjoy your new features until Apple gives you a more compelling reason to upgrade. Don't get upset because you're following this lemming mentality.
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dru
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Feb 4, 2004, 04:38 AM
 
Originally posted by MDiddy:
Apple's been making yearsly releases long before Mac OS X came out. From Mac OS 8 on, if I remember right. I think the fact that the upgrades are only +.1 gets to alot of people. In reality, you could call Panther Mac OS 12, given the number of improvements from Mac OS 10.0.
Panther is snappy but that's *all* it has going for it. The Finder is an atrocity. The desktop "loses" items that suddenly vanish and yet *are* still there only to repear randomly. The desktop will align things awfully and sometimes lie about where it's put items on the desktop (the icon will show in one location but in reality be elsewhere on the desktop! Did I mention that if you select "too many" (random # above 20) icons and try to move then you get *no* visual feedback and only have to *hope* the Finder is doing what you asked? These alone are a menace and a mess to file system navigation. Labels on pop-up menus cause an unexceptable delay when the user requests the context menu. They should be cached already. Duh.

I'm very tempted to try running the Jaguar Finder on Panther. At least that wasn't as cranky even with plenty of faults!

I don't like the sidebar, I don't like the brushed metal.

My #1 message for Steve: Get your Mac OS X Finder sh!t together!

I tried PathFinder and found it locked up my machine when I tried to use it full time and even if it worked, the menus are too long. At least on Windows I don't have to wonder *where* the files are or whether I'm actually doing the drag & drop I want to do.
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JLL
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Feb 4, 2004, 04:51 AM
 
Originally posted by dru:
At least on Windows I don't have to wonder *where* the files are or whether I'm actually doing the drag & drop I want to do.
Huh? XP doesn't show much more than 2 icons before fading out the selection.

This is 41 files in Mac OS X
( Last edited by JLL; Feb 4, 2004 at 05:01 AM. )
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Chuckit
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Feb 4, 2004, 05:52 AM
 
Dru, I don't know what's wrong with your computer, but your experience certainly doesn't seem to be universal. I, for one, am not experiencing a single one of the problems you described.
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ae86_16v
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Feb 4, 2004, 06:46 AM
 
Originally posted by macdane:
I am willing to accept paying for the OS upgrade each year. However, I am concerned about third party application and driver support. Thus far, the Mac OS X upgrades have frequently broken drivers forcing the hardware vendors to upgrade their drivers. Eventually the vendors will stop upgrading the drivers for their older products so that we will be forced to upgrade our hardware (such as scanners) to support a new version of Mac OS X.

Having many OS versions commonly installed on Macs can also be very expensive for application developers to test against. Therefore, I'm guessing the application developers won't support more than the last couple OS versions. Those people/businesses who don't have the time or money to upgrade their OS every single year may not be able to buy a new applications that they want or need. Even Apple has already done this by releasing the Java and Safari update for Mac OS X 10.3 only.
Excellent Point.

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
Apple can't keep charging $129 per year... I know we are all Mac addicts, but this is getting just a little crazy. Although I usually will "borrow" applications before purchasing them... I always buy OS upgrades and never install pirated OSs.

That being said, over the past two and a half years, I've paid app. $390 in OS updates.
Remember that OS X took over $1 billion to complete, they have to recover the cost one way or another over that 8 million installed user base. Where as Microsoft could do that with relative easy.
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Simon
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Feb 4, 2004, 06:49 AM
 
Originally posted by ae86_16v:
Remember that OS X took over $1 billion to complete, they have to recover the cost one way or another over that 8 million installed user base. Where as Microsoft could do that with relative easy.
8 million installed base times $129 per update equals to $1.032 billion.

So that makes one update necessary to recover the investment.

j/k
     
wulf
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Feb 4, 2004, 07:07 AM
 
Originally posted by dru:
I don't like the sidebar, I don't like the brushed metal.
Click the widget in the top-right corner of the window. Voil�! No sidebar, no brushed metal.

As for your other points, I find the Panther Finder significantly less cranky than Jaguar's. Even on my gf's G3 PowerBook.
     
Gankdawg
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Feb 4, 2004, 09:44 AM
 
Originally posted by Turias:
Just think about it this way:

Windows XP is $200.
XP Professional is $300.
newegg.com lists XP for $92, XP Pro for $137 with a hardware purchase.
     
nobitacu
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Feb 4, 2004, 09:52 AM
 
Originally posted by Simon:
8 million installed base times $129 per update equals to $1.032 billion.

So that makes one update necessary to recover the investment.

j/k
Don't worry, Apple will always get my money whenever they release a major update like the 10.4.
But I wonder how many copies of Panther have Apple sold so far? I would be nice to know...

Ming
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bonaccij
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Feb 4, 2004, 09:59 AM
 
I think that paying $129 per year for an Operating System as good as OS X has been (since 10.1) is the LEAST I can do to support the company I love. I am always suprised that people want the OS for free. It almost makes me a little angry.

We all tout and tout how much we love Apple and how we are soooo glad that they are inovators... but nobody wants to pay for it? STUPID. Is the $129 really hurting you that much? I liked the post about the coffee - but that doesn't seem to bother anyone. Why doesn't Starbuck give out free coffee for customers that are there everyday.... get the point?

Look at it this way, EVERY penny you spend on a new OS (and any software from Apple, really) goes RIGHT BACK INTO PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT. Now, take that to the bank. And the funny thing is, Apple doesn't even really care about the revs it makes from the software it sells....remember... they are hardware manufacturers.....
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Simon
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Feb 4, 2004, 11:16 AM
 
In this discussion I am certain about three things:

1. I will gladly pay the $129 for the annual OS update.

2. There will always be tons of b!tching on the net and bad press for charging $129 on an annual basis. No matter how good or how necessary the update is.

3. Security patches and bug fixes should be offered by Apple free of charge for all OS versions (that are no older than about five years) if technically in some way feasible.

-> I think point 3 is the one that requires real commitment from Apple as of today.

In the case of Panther: The included Expose and fast user switching is IMHO enough to get me to pay $129 w/o thinking about it twice.
     
Moonray
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Feb 4, 2004, 11:48 AM
 
I would like to see a mostly bugfree and "finished" operating system for that price like OS 7.5/6, 8.6, and 9.2 have been, but with the 10.x releases I can obviously be sure to buy a only half-tested OS that introduces more or less interesting new bugs.

-
     
djboccip
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Feb 4, 2004, 11:58 AM
 
I have to differ... the autosyncing /local-copy iDisk feature alone was well worth $129 IMHO and has done more to simplify my life than any OS feature in years... then again, true cost of that feature has to roll in a $99 .Mac membership :-)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dru:
[B]Panther is snappy but that's *all* it has going for it. ...
     
the Rebel
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Feb 4, 2004, 01:31 PM
 
Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
Apple can't keep charging $129 per year... I know we are all Mac addicts, but this is getting just a little crazy.

That being said, over the past two and a half years, I've paid app. $390 in OS updates.
First of all, no one is forced to buy an OS upgrade. If you purchase the upgrade then that is your choice. There are a lot of people who have simply chosen not to upgrade. I know of various people currently running Mac OS 8.x, Mac OS 9.x, Mac OS 10.1.x, and Mac OS 10.2.x. They have not been compelled to upgrade and they are all functioning just fine.

Secondly, why are you paying the full MSRP for each new version of the Mac OS? There are always places to buy it for less. For example, Amazon currently has Panther for $119 but I have seen it on there for only $99. So when 10.4 comes out, be smart and shop around a little before you run out and pay MSRP.

If you really truly NEED the latest OS in order for you to function, then even $129 is not a very high price to pay.

However, more likely, always having the latest OS is simply a luxury that you want to have and it is not actually required.

It is wrong for anyone to ask that technology stop advancing just because they do not want to keep paying to be on the cutting edge. Instead, just accept the fact that you do not have to be on the cutting edge.
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Horsepoo!!!
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Feb 4, 2004, 01:39 PM
 
Originally posted by the Rebel:

It is wrong for anyone to ask that technology stop advancing just because they do not want to keep paying to be on the cutting edge. Instead, just accept the fact that you do not have to be on the cutting edge.
Well said...and a cute example would be someone bitching that Apple is releasing a new G5 update every, say, 6 months and that they can't afford shelling out 2500-3000 every 6 months. But that never happens because people take that for granted. Why can't they do the same for operating systems? I dunno.

However, one might argue that Apple is somewhat forcing people to upgrade by releasing things such as Safari 1.2 which is 10.3-only. But, whatever, nobody's really forcing anyone to upgrade.
     
the Rebel
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Feb 4, 2004, 01:39 PM
 
Originally posted by Moonray:
I would like to see a mostly bugfree and "finished" operating system for that price like OS 7.5/6, 8.6, and 9.2 have been, but with the 10.x releases I can obviously be sure to buy a only half-tested OS that introduces more or less interesting new bugs.

-
What signifigant bugs are in Mac OS 10.2.8? How is it unfinished?

It is absurd to suggest that Mac OS 7.5 - Mac OS 8.6 - Mac OS 9.2 are more "bugfree" or more"finished" than Mac OS 10.2.8. If you are going to make such a claim, then try to back it up with some specific examples.
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the Rebel
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Feb 4, 2004, 01:46 PM
 
Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
However, one might argue that Apple is somewhat forcing people to upgrade by releasing things such as Safari 1.2 which is 10.3-only. But, whatever, nobody's really forcing anyone to upgrade.
Right. No one is forced to use Safari 1.2.

Safari 1.1 still works.

Mozilla, Camino, Firebird, Opera, iCab, and even MS IE can be used instead of Safari.

No one needs to have Safari 1.2; there are plenty of other options.
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Angus_D
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Feb 4, 2004, 04:19 PM
 
There are some good points here.

Nobody is forced to pay for an OS update. Jaguar is perfectly capable as an OS, I don't know of nay major apps that are Panther-only (yet). If you're still on Puma then you should probably think about upgrading, though.

However, it *does* suck that Apple doesn't provide ANY DISCOUNT for those users that bought the last release. OS X is more expensive than OS 9 or OS 8 or anything ever was, and the updates seem to be more regular. If it was ~$69 upgrade from the previous release I'm sure people wouldn't complain so bitterly.
     
jasonsRX7
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Feb 4, 2004, 04:37 PM
 
Originally posted by Turias:
Just think about it this way:

Windows XP is $200.
XP Professional is $300.

Also compare the price of iLife with similar Windows applications.
As much as I hate to defend Microsoft, in all fairness you should consider that a $200 copy of XP will continue to get updates for 6 years or more. I mean, that doesn't make XP better, but it's worth considering.

I have Panther on both my macs, but I didn't realize that Apple literally abandoned 1 year old operating systems until I saw that they didn't release Safari 1.2 for Jaguar. I just can't see where that would make good business sense for them. Will enough users really go out and spend $130 just to get a new version of a browser? If they want developers to take it seriously, they need to get it on as many systems as possible.

Apple shouldn't give everything away for free (my paid for copy of iLife '04 just arrived today, woo!) but they should probably give away certain technologies that promote and expand the acceptance of Apple products.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Feb 4, 2004, 04:47 PM
 
Originally posted by Gankdawg:
newegg.com lists XP for $92, XP Pro for $137 with a hardware purchase.
And Mac OS X comes FREE with a hardware purchase.

Your point?
     
jasonsRX7
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Feb 4, 2004, 05:13 PM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
And Mac OS X comes FREE with a hardware purchase.

Your point?
I think he meant that to fufil the OEM pricing purchase requirements, you have to purchase a piece of hardware along with the copy of XP. It can be something as little as a $3 'Y' power splitter.

OS X doesn't come free with a Airport Extreme base station or an iSight camera. Not that it should, but those are hardware purchases. If you buy a Mac with OS X installed on it, you ARE paying for it, just like you're paying for the secret decoder ring in the box of Fruity Pebbles you buy for your kids. And just like the decoder ring helps sell Fruity Pebbles, an operating system preinstalled on a Mac helps sell Macs.
     
dcentity2000
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Mar 8, 2004, 09:03 AM
 
Just worth pointing out, if you buy a system of Operating Software or hardware from Apple and very soon afterwards (I think the cut off is 3 months?) then you get the free operating system upgrade.

You do have to pay for p&p though.

So... 10.4 "Lion" would cost those who bought a mac a month before it's release (or Panther for that matter) around $14?

Mebbe this is an English thing only :/



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ntsc
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Mar 8, 2004, 09:50 AM
 
I have Panther on both my macs, but I didn't realize that Apple literally abandoned 1 year old operating systems until I saw that they didn't release Safari 1.2 for Jaguar.
i mean no offence to you personally but i keep seeing this Safari 1.2 thing brought up again and again! Apple has ont yet released a version of 1.2 for >= Jag because there a number of technologies which Safari is using which are SPECIFIC to Panther and aren't available under jag. if they ever released a version which was Jag compatible they would have to remove these features, which from what i've heard, would marginalise the update or they would have to back port a whole lot of stuff from 10.3. obviously neither of these is feasible so they have elected to make it 10.3 only. Further there are very few (if any although i'm not entire sure there are none) other Apple apps which are 10.3 only, and at the end of the day there are plenty of other browser apps which some might argue are better than Safari which could be used.

Remember this is new OS the pace of change is quick because it is new and because it is apparently possible for Apple to add new features quickly. OS<9 was old and difficult to change things for, it also had to have a reasonable amount of legacy support, i guess this is a the trade off, if you like, of have a good OS, thinks change quickly. although i think either with 10.3 or 10.4 we will start to see things like device drivers settling down and fewer things breaking over each OS iteration as things are more absolutely finalised.
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Gankdawg
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Mar 8, 2004, 09:59 AM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
And Mac OS X comes FREE with a hardware purchase.

Your point?
My point is that XP and XP Pro can be found for much cheaper than alot of people think. Would be nice if there were good deals out there for non-students.
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Mar 8, 2004, 10:02 AM
 
Originally posted by Gankdawg:
My point is that XP and XP Pro can be found for much cheaper than alot of people think. Would be nice if there were good deals out there for non-students.
Much cheaper than free? I'd love it if MS paid me to run XP.
     
Gankdawg
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Mar 8, 2004, 10:04 AM
 
Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Much cheaper than free? I'd love it if MS paid me to run XP.
Where can people get it free? Without purchasing a new computer?
( Last edited by Gankdawg; Mar 8, 2004 at 11:03 AM. )
     
JKT
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Mar 8, 2004, 10:41 AM
 
My personal feeling on this matter is that I hope Apple doesn't release 10.4 for at least 1 1/2 to 2 years after 10.3 so that it can be as kick-ass as possible and include a complete overhaul of the file system and a more coherent Finder. That way, they could concentrate on doing the much more important thing of improving and then selling far more hardware (which is supposedly where they make their money anyway). The OS in the form of 10.3 is good enough to not need a major update for a long while (10.2 was close, but just missed the cigar). They can iron out the minor annoyances in 10.3 in the meantime and perhaps generate software revenue from e.g. an updated AppleWorks and the like.
     
typoon
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Mar 8, 2004, 11:23 AM
 
Something people seem to not be talking about is Expose. that to me is one feature that Makes Panther worth the $129. I for one like the new finder. It's much better than the Jag finder or the OS 9 finder IMO. Also the speed increase from Jag to me is worth it as well. there are also a lot of minor refinements that make me enjoy Panther much more than Jag and make me feel it is worth the $129 upgrade. I for one will keep upgrading my OS when Apple releases a new one. Firstly because I want to support Apple and help Make OS X even better, second because I'm going to need it to support customers when they buy a new Mac that will have the New OS on it.
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