[art_director]

Let's look at some facts:

1. The Department of Homeland Security, formed in the wake of 9-11, is undergoing an overhaul. The reason it's being overhauled, less than five years into its life, is because Bush appointee, Tom Ridge, was a miserable failure in creating a viable agency. The Bush administration saw how poorly Ridge had built this department and quietly replaced him with Chertoff.

2. On July 13, 2005, the DHS put out a six-point agenda for the DHS. The first item on that list is : "Increase overall preparedness, particularly for catastrophic events." We can look at this two ways:

a. Chertoff, the recently appointed director of DHS, recognizes the need for change.

b. Bush appointed a person who did not posess the skills to build a proper DHS and, with Chertoff, he's trying to fix what he fooked up in the forst place.

Regardless, the DHS didn't achieve its goal this past week. The responsibility falls squarely on Bushs shoulders – he alone appointed DHS director #1 and DHS director #2.

[Stegabot]

Art director
Sorry to burst your bubble,but you don't know what the hell you are talking about.I presume that you never have been involved in civilian or even military rescue and relief operations following a natural disaster,have you? Unlike you,I did,Mount Pinatubo,Philippines after the damn volcano exploded in 1991.My classmates after finishing their board exams immediately volunteered to go up north to help our unfortunate countrymen and here were their tales.It was a mess.In the disaster area itself,roads and bridges were heavily damaged by the weight of the ash,pumice and whathave you and the rescue and relief teams had to contend with masses of people trying to get away from the raging volcano.When they got to where they supposed to be, it got even worse,it's typhoon season and they had to tackle another natural occurence after a volcano explodes,lahar.Imagine doing your job and hearing a damn siren telling you to drop everything and run because massive land slides were heading your way.Whole towns were buried and people who were foolish to ignore those warnings died in their houses and the lucky ones were fated to wait for several days for a chopper to lift them off to safety from their rooftops.And Angeles City were Clark Airbase was located was almost cut off because almost all of the bridges that spanned the Pampanga river were destroyed or badly damaged that crossing even by foot was a death waiting to happen.How about crowd control,Tell you what,looting was there and violence as well.Oh corruption,it was present and pervalent even when I came up two months later.How about the national government.They gave warnings before the volcano exploded,but truth be told,they didn't know what volcano was going to erupt .It was either Mt Pinatubo in Pampanga or Mt Taal in Tagaytay which was nearer to Manila and nobody knew how big the eruption it will going to be until Pinatubo erupted.Believed me when I tell you that a lot of people blamed then President Aquino and of course the US base for the explosion.
Art director
Nobody knows a measure of a man until he is tested.He may have the credentials and experience to do the job,but when crisis strikes,he may not be the man or woman for the job after all.Same thing that happenned here.The FEMA guy was thought to be competent,he was not,so was the Mayor of New Orleans and the governor of Louisiana.In an ironic way,the most competent man in the whole mess was the president himself even when made some failings of his own.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Stegabot

Nobody knows a measure of a man until he is tested.He may have the credentials and experience to do the job,but when crisis strikes,he may not be the man or woman for the job after all.Same thing that happenned here.The FEMA guy was thought to be competent,he was not,so was the Mayor of New Orleans and the governor of Louisiana.In an ironic way,the most competent man in the whole mess was the president himself even when made some failings of his own.

This is a failure because this is exactly what FEMA was designed for. Now are we supposed to trust FEMA when Al Quada detonates 2 or 3 nukes in a large city? I mean, this is EXACTLY the sort of work they are supposed to be ready. I don't mean to be rude, but FEMA is not a group of students. It's a bunch of guys GETTING PAID to solve problems like these. And it's quite clear they don't know how. Foreign governments seem to be far better prepared to solve our problems.

[Sky Captain]

Yeah, we need to be governed by France or Germany.
Or China.

[Stegabot]

GoMac
Real life disaster computer scenarios and the real actual thing are two different things.It is real easy to do it in simulations,but in reality,it's hell.A lot of FEMA whiz kids now had a real life education of what to do in this kind of scenario which also I hope that every State governors and city and town mayors now know what to do and not what to do if a simiar occurence occur.

[Sky Captain]

France did a GREAT job during the heatwave.
Go Europe!

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Stegabot

GoMac
Real life disaster computer scenarios and the real actual thing are two different things.It is real easy to do it in simulations,but in reality,it's hell.A lot of FEMA whiz kids now had a real life education of what to do in this kind of scenario which also I hope that every State governors and city and town mayors now know what to do and not what to do if a simiar occurence occur.

But like I said in the other thread, how is it that CNN knows where survivors where and it took FEMA two days to find the same information? It doesn't make sense. This isn't just a little confusion, or a simulation gone wrong. This is a basic failure of FEMA to get there in a timely matter or even figure out where survivors are, when apparently, a cable news channel reporter can.

[Stegabot]

CCN has a very big advantage over any government organization in any disaster.They already are in it and on it.Besides that,Does the media had to worry about getting the manpower to organized to rescue those poor folks trapped in New Orleans or the means to get them there?Or do CNN had to worry about how to get supplies to them trapped folks?Timely manner in a disaster area,goMac depends on how you can get your people and resources there safely,efficiently and above all correctly.Unless you have a space cruiser and a space transport hovering over New Orleans,the people and supplies will get in there piecemeal.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Stegabot

Art director
Sorry to burst your bubble,but you don't know what the hell you are talking about.I presume that you never have been involved in civilian or even military rescue and relief operations following a natural disaster,have you? Unlike you,I did,Mount Pinatubo,Philippines after the damn volcano exploded in 1991.My classmates after finishing their board exams immediately volunteered to go up north to help our unfortunate countrymen and here were their tales.It was a mess.In the disaster area itself,roads and bridges were heavily damaged by the weight of the ash,pumice and whathave you and the rescue and relief teams had to contend with masses of people trying to get away from the raging volcano.When they got to where they supposed to be, it got even worse,it's typhoon season and they had to tackle another natural occurence after a volcano explodes,lahar.Imagine doing your job and hearing a damn siren telling you to drop everything and run because massive land slides were heading your way.Whole towns were buried and people who were foolish to ignore those warnings died in their houses and the lucky ones were fated to wait for several days for a chopper to lift them off to safety from their rooftops.And Angeles City were Clark Airbase was located was almost cut off because almost all of the bridges that spanned the Pampanga river were destroyed or badly damaged that crossing even by foot was a death waiting to happen.How about crowd control,Tell you what,looting was there and violence as well.Oh corruption,it was present and pervalent even when I came up two months later.How about the national government.They gave warnings before the volcano exploded,but truth be told,they didn't know what volcano was going to erupt .It was either Mt Pinatubo in Pampanga or Mt Taal in Tagaytay which was nearer to Manila and nobody knew how big the eruption it will going to be until Pinatubo erupted.Believed me when I tell you that a lot of people blamed then President Aquino and of course the US base for the explosion.
Art director
Nobody knows a measure of a man until he is tested.He may have the credentials and experience to do the job,but when crisis strikes,he may not be the man or woman for the job after all.Same thing that happenned here.The FEMA guy was thought to be competent,he was not,so was the Mayor of New Orleans and the governor of Louisiana.In an ironic way,the most competent man in the whole mess was the president himself even when made some failings of his own.

Your volcano story, while sad, is not the measure of this disaster. Kindly refrain from making assumptions about my history.

The president was the most competent man in the situation was Bush? Hmmm...then why so long for him to take action?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Stegabot

CCN has a very big advantage over any government organization in any disaster.They already are in it and on it.Besides that,Does the media had to worry about getting the manpower to organized to rescue those poor folks trapped in New Orleans or the means to get them there?Or do CNN had to worry about how to get supplies to them trapped folks?Timely manner in a disaster area,goMac depends on how you can get your people and resources there safely,efficiently and above all correctly.Unless you have a space cruiser and a space transport hovering over New Orleans,the people and supplies will get in there piecemeal.

Should FEMA also be in it and on it? It's not like they didn't see this coming. I mean, if CNN saw this coming and got people in there, why didn't FEMA do the same?

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Stegabot

CCN has a very big advantage over any government organization in any disaster.They already are in it and on it.Besides that,Does the media had to worry about getting the manpower to organized to rescue those poor folks trapped in New Orleans or the means to get them there?Or do CNN had to worry about how to get supplies to them trapped folks?Timely manner in a disaster area,goMac depends on how you can get your people and resources there safely,efficiently and above all correctly.Unless you have a space cruiser and a space transport hovering over New Orleans,the people and supplies will get in there piecemeal.

Stegabot:

Slow down and read goMacs post.

As stated -- CNN knew and had it all over the news. With that information, FEMA, DHS, the president and the Boy Scouts could have known much of what was happening. Instead, they use "well we didn't have that information" as a lame, after-the-fact excuse. And, given the entire CNN-viewing world knew, it's mighty pathetic for the government to lie.

This is not an argument about the difficulty of getting in to help, it's plain fooking common sense or lack thereof.

[art_director]

After focusing on terrorism, critics say Homeland Security was unprepared for Katrina
Lara Jakes Jordan, Associated Press
September 4, 2005 KATCRITICS0905



WASHINGTON — The Homeland Security Department spent the past four years focused on averting the next terrorist attack and was unprepared to decisively respond to the overwhelming devastation caused by Hurricane Katrina, former officials and experts say.
The agency, created after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, was still struggling days after Katrina battered the Gulf Coast to coordinate federal rescue and relief efforts and communicate with emergency workers on the ground. The fractured federal response left critics questioning whether the department is prepared to deal with the aftermath of a terror attack.
"I can't tell you that we're lock, stock and ready to go,'' said former Homeland Security Deputy Secretary Adm. James Loy, who left the department earlier this year. He called the issue "a very, very legitimate question,'' and said the agency's front-burner issue has been preventing and preparing a response to terrorism.
"Because of the focus in the last four years, we would be better prepared for'' terrorism, Loy said.
The devastation left in Katrina's wake stretches over 90,000 square miles — a potentially larger area than anything terrorists could effect with anything but the most lethal of weapons, Homeland Security officials said.
"I think we have to plan for both'' terror attacks and natural disasters, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said. He said the big problem with Katrina was that a catastrophic storm was followed by an equally devastating breaching of New Orleans' levees, swamping the city.
"I think the problem is we had two events that have been hypothesized that occurred simultaneously,'' Chertoff said Saturday. "And I guess that does, you know, indicate that at some level with all of the planning and all of resources, if a truly catastrophic event, if an ultra-catastrophe occurs, there's going to be some harmful fallout.''
In January, Homeland Security issued a national response plan combining disaster relief programs from at least 12 agencies to ensure streamlined assistance to state and local authorities. It also conducted several studies of New Orleans' vulnerability to hurricanes and other emergencies that would be worsened by its water-bound location and weak levees.
Even so, the department's response to Katrina faltered in areas that included reliable communications systems and the maintenance of law and order, said former Homeland Security intelligence official John Rollins.
"Given three days notice as to the general location of landfall and the projected level of impact, I thought we would have been better prepared for this situation,'' Rollins said. "We certainly would not have had the luxury of knowledge of timing and location were it a terrorist attack on the levees rather than the impact from Katrina.''
The Homeland Security Department is in charge of coordinating federal response to domestic catastrophes. It includes the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the government's traditional first line of response, which critics charge has been slowed by a sluggish bureaucracy.
"We were taking an agency that was maybe 1 percent dealing with homeland security and 99 percent disaster, and folding it into something where it could lose focus and resources,'' said Rep. Earl Blumenauer, D-Ore. "And that is what's happened.''
Despite the sheer magnitude of the disaster, homeland security expert Daniel Prieto said the federal government has to be prepared to pick up the slack when the private sector and state and local officials can't.
"The federal government is the protector of last resort. Dispassionately, that is where responsibility lies,'' said Prieto, research director for the homeland security partnership at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government.
"I think this really points out how far we have to go, even after 9/11, even though there was knowledge of this storm coming,'' Prieto said.
But William Parrish, who formerly held a number of Homeland Security senior positions, said now is not the time to point fingers.
"Every time we have a disaster we have to look at it and see what we can learn from it. This one is going to be studied and studied and studied,'' said Parrish, now a professor of homeland security and emergency planning at Virginia Commonwealth University.
———
Associated Press writers Katherine Shrader, Matthew Daly and Donna Cassata contributed to this report.

[Stegabot]

Art Director
You just don't get ,do you? Every disaster whether they be volcanic,earthquake ,tsunami and hurricane,even though they may be different,rescue and relief responses especially from the government can be best termed weak in the initial response.Why? Because like all government functions short of war,everything is predicated that the local and state governments had plans which will be used by the national government in spearheading the rescue and relief efforts.But if both Local and State has no plans or even no idea that they had those plans or worse,stupid enough not to follow those plans,then the larger government which in this case the Federal Government will have to make do on what initial assessment they have on the region and use what ever plans the State and local government has and improve on them on the fly.It does not help anybody if the governor of Louisiana and the mayor of New Orleans lost their heads.
Art Director,I will kindly refrain from judging you if you kindly refrain to think that many of us who supports Bush are dumb and idiotic. We know his faults,but blaming him for a natural disaster strikes me as kind of stupid especially when the local officials were busy thinking politics instead of their citizens

goMac
FEMA was there,the local officials starting with the mayor of City Hall was dumb enough not to review and revise their disaster contingency plans nor had the initiative of doing some leadership during that critical time especially on those precious days before the hurricane hit the New Orleans.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Stegabot

FEMA was there,the local officials starting with the mayor of City Hall was dumb enough not to review and revise their disaster contingency plans nor had the initiative of doing some leadership during that critical time especially on those precious days before the hurricane hit the New Orleans.

Let's assume for a second you're right. Shouldn't FEMA, being the disaster experts, step in for the clueless local government?

[Stegabot]

WAs FEMA at Fault ,yes,but think about it,even as recently as a month or two ago,newspaper articles were reporting about how vulnerable New Orleans was if it was hit by a Category 4 hurricane.Why wasn't it addressed by the governor of Louisiana and by the mayor himself at New Orleans.Politics aside,what both the mayor and the Governor should have done was talk with the FEMA people when those doomsday articles were published and reviewed contingency plans with them,just in case and while they are at it,should have made an effort educating the people of New Orleans about what to do when a hurricane of that magnitude strikes the city.

[Stegabot]

Yes,if the clueless local government would let them do their job.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by art_director

Sorry, I'm not wasting time with people who use symbols of racism for their sigs.

Sorry, but I'm not wasting time with people who write posts about specific individuals and play the race card for kicks.

Give me a break.

[Stegabot]

goMac
You know the real problem was,it was not the Hurricane Katrina,not the levees or the flooding.It was politics and the disaster that happenned in Louisiana in particular in New Orleans made it much clearer.
Think for a minute.Everybody knew from the Federal level down to the municipal level that New Orleans is a disaster waiting to happen.But politics prevented competent people from saying the necessary things to keep people thinking.Everybody was afraid that they might offend somebody if they suggested something radical.IF Political Correctness and diversity or even multiculturalism were not in vogue and in their place,frankness and honesty as well as common sense.It would had been a different story,perhaps.Somebody in the Governor's office could had told the FEMA director that he is incompetent without fear of getting fired or an aide to the mayor could have told the latter to move his ass and be a mayor without fear of being called a racist and we might have a different story right now instead of the heartbreaking chaos we are seeing and hearing in the news.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Stegabot

Yes,if the clueless local government would let them do their job.

So uhhh... how did the local government get in the way?

FEMA is Federal. They can tell the local government to go screw themselves any time they please.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by goMac

So uhhh... how did the local government get in the way?

FEMA is Federal. They can tell the local government to go screw themselves any time they please.

This has been posted (and ignored) a couple of times now. But it answers your question.

Behind the scenes, a power struggle emerged, as federal officials tried to wrest authority from Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D). Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state's emergency operations center said Saturday.

The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law. Some officials in the state suspected a political motive behind the request. "Quite frankly, if they'd been able to pull off taking it away from the locals, they then could have blamed everything on the locals," said the source, who does not have the authority to speak publicly.

A senior administration official said that Bush has clear legal authority to federalize National Guard units to quell civil disturbances under the Insurrection Act and will continue to try to unify the chains of command that are split among the president, the Louisiana governor and the New Orleans mayor.

Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said. As of Saturday, Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency, the senior Bush official said.

Washington Post

Read it a couple of times and let it sink in. The federal government offered to take over, and the Governor refused. The Governor failed to declare a state of emergency until Wednesday. The Governor did not reach out to other states for help as she could have done under a pre-existing mutual aid compact until Wednesday.

[Sky Captain]

Yeah, lets send in thousands of men and material before the storm to have it destroyed during the storm before we even know what we're dealing with.

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

This has been posted (and ignored) a couple of times now. But it answers your question.

Washington Post

Read it a couple of times and let it sink in. The federal government offered to take over, and the Governor refused. The Governor failed to declare a state of emergency until Wednesday. The Governor did not reach out to other states for help as she could have done under a pre-existing mutual aid compact until Wednesday.

From your link:

Correction to This Article
A Sept. 4 article on the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina incorrectly said that Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D) had not declared a state of emergency. She declared an emergency on Aug. 26.

This means Blanco did declare a state of emergency as early as Friday, August 26. I don't know who to believe now...

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

Yeah, lets send in thousands of men and material before the storm to have it destroyed during the storm before we even know what we're dealing with.

Storms been over for a while. FEMA still sat around. I don't think the storm was really around Tuesday. CNN certainly seemed to know what we were dealing with.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

This has been posted (and ignored) a couple of times now. But it answers your question.



Washington Post

Read it a couple of times and let it sink in. The federal government offered to take over, and the Governor refused. The Governor failed to declare a state of emergency until Wednesday. The Governor did not reach out to other states for help as she could have done under a pre-existing mutual aid compact until Wednesday.

Someone already posted the correction. Course if you watched CNN (they seem to know everything, don't they?) they already covered this on Friday when it happened.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by goMac

Someone already posted the correction.

OK, but what about the rest of the article? She turned down federal help, and didn't seek help from the other states.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

OK, but what about the rest of the article? She turned down federal help, and didn't seek help from the other states.

Can't the Federal government force help if they feel the local government is inept?

Originally Posted by Millennium

Because if you look at that picture, there was open space but not dry land: only buildings whose structural integrity had been compromised. Air drops are heavy; you can't just drop things in an area that could collapse under their weight. If that happens, the odds are very high that the drops will be either lost or contaminated. At that point, not only is that drop no good to anybody, but you now have one fewer drop's worth of supplies to distribute.

Logistically, it does not make sense to drop food unless you can be sure it's going to get where it needs to go. That was not possible.

Oh come now. Do you really believe that? What about all that parking space with all those cars surrounding the Superdome. You don't think that's strong enough to hold a few air drops of food and water?

Also, why were they able to move food in on Friday then? The waters did not recede any, so what is the difference? Why couldn't they get the food in earlier? All they had to do was watch the bloody news to know what was going on for crying out loud!

[Stegabot]

Short version,no.Long version,have Simey or any one with a competent knowledge of the US Constitution can explain it better than me.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by goMac

Can't the Federal government force help if they feel the local government is inept?

Please go back to civics class. No, of course not. The state government is a separate sovereign. It's called federalism. See the 10th Amendment for details.

The only thing the president could do would be to federalize the national guard. That's a very extreme move. Think Little Rock 1956. But even that doesn't take authority away from the governor of the state. Short of a situation like in Reconstruction (after the Civil War) the federal government does not have the authority to depose the elected government of Louisiana.

I'm getting a little frustrated here. You admit that the state government (and presumably the Mayor's office) dropped the ball and were incompetent. Presumably, you also know that the states have the most authority over their own territory (it's called the police power in constitutional law). Yet you still want to say that is the fault of the federal government for not launching what would amount to a coup!

Why do I have the feeling that if the Republican president of the United States had tossed aside the Democratic governor of Louisiana and the Democratic Mayor of the City of New Orleans, we'd now be hearing what a criminal Bush was, and how he had trampled on local democracy.

Originally Posted by goMac

Can't the Federal government force help if they feel the local government is inept?

Exactly. Why couldn't the feds just go in regardless of what the locals were saying? People were starving and dying, man. The news media was reporting it; the American public knew about it. All the feds had to do was turn on a bloody TV for Pete's sake. I mean, they didn't even know people were suffering inside the convention center for DAYS until CNN's Paula Zahn told them:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/03/na...al/03fema.html

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/02/katrina.response/

I hate to place the blame on one guy--Bush--but the buck has to stop somewhere. Either he's an idiot, he surrounds himself with idiots, or both. Chertoff and Brown should be fired ASAP.

And let's not forget that Bush was too busy playing guitar on August 30th:

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/480/capm10208301856

Nor should we ignore the photo op he did last Friday:

http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/002485.html

[Sky Captain]

Wow. And I had a post called stupid.

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

Please go back to civics class. No, of course not. The state government is a separate sovereign. It's called federalism. See the 10th Amendment for details.

The only thing the president could do would be to federalize the national guard. That's a very extreme move. Think Little Rock 1956. But even that doesn't take authority away from the governor of the state. Short of a situation like in Reconstruction (after the Civil War) the federal government does not have the authority to depose the elected government of Louisiana.

I'm getting a little frustrated here. You admit that the state government (and presumably the Mayor's office) dropped the ball and were incompetent. Presumably, you also know that the states have the most authority over their own territory (it's called the police power in constitutional law). Yet you still want to say that is the fault of the federal government for not launching what would amount to a coup!

Why do I have the feeling that if the Republican president of the United States had tossed aside the Democratic governor of Louisiana and the Democratic Mayor of the City of New Orleans, we'd now be hearing what a criminal Bush was, and how he had trampled on local democracy.

Since I'm Canadian, I did not know this. However, all this BS bureaucracy should have been shoved aside when news broke out about all the people starving and dying. All they had to do was watch the news like everybody else. The feds and locals could sort out all their stupid egos afterwards, as far as I'm concerned.

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

Wow. And I had a post called stupid.

What exactly did you have a problem with my post, Sky Captain?

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Especially on the moon, as depicted. Everyone knows that in reality it's the French flag up there.

Everyone knows the moon landing was faked. Just ask budster.

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by asmack

What exactly did you have a problem with my post, Sky Captain?

I hate to place the blame on one guy--Bush--but the buck has to stop somewhere. Either he's an idiot, he surrounds himself with idiots, or both. Chertoff and Brown should be fired ASAP.

Partisan hate.
Stupid stupid stupid.

What president hasn't.
Geez.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

Please go back to civics class. No, of course not. The state government is a separate sovereign. It's called federalism. See the 10th Amendment for details.

The only thing the president could do would be to federalize the national guard. That's a very extreme move. Think Little Rock 1956. But even that doesn't take authority away from the governor of the state. Short of a situation like in Reconstruction (after the Civil War) the federal government does not have the authority to depose the elected government of Louisiana.

I'm getting a little frustrated here. You admit that the state government (and presumably the Mayor's office) dropped the ball and were incompetent. Presumably, you also know that the states have the most authority over their own territory (it's called the police power in constitutional law). Yet you still want to say that is the fault of the federal government for not launching what would amount to a coup!

Why do I have the feeling that if the Republican president of the United States had tossed aside the Democratic governor of Louisiana and the Democratic Mayor of the City of New Orleans, we'd now be hearing what a criminal Bush was, and how he had trampled on local democracy.

Huh? The President never federalized the national guard in Little Rock. He brought in the army and forced the national guard to stand down. Federal powers will override state powers. And moving in FEMA is not disposing the State government. It's deploying aid to a state. Since when is that a military act? FEMA could have moved in buses, and moved people who wanted to go out. Thats not a military act.

And again, by trying to pin the blame on the state (apparently the governor is also synominous with the mayor now, dunno where that came from) you're missing the point. In order to save lives, FEMA could have moved into Texas, or even Louisiana and been on stand by. Instead it took them two days to get there. If a nuclear bomb goes off in downtown Portland, should I be expected to wait two days for FEMA? At least answer me that.

[Sky Captain]

No one should expect anything instantly.
Especially from the government.
It's up to the citizen to be self sufficent in the time of crisis until help arrives.
We are individuals, not wards of the state.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by goMac

Huh? The President never federalized the national guard in Little Rock. He brought in the army and forced the national guard to stand down. Federal powers will override state powers. And moving in FEMA is not disposing the State government. It's deploying aid to a state. Since when is that a military act? FEMA could have moved in buses, and moved people who wanted to go out. Thats not a military act.

And again, by trying to pin the blame on the state (apparently the governor is also synominous with the mayor now, dunno where that came from) you're missing the point. In order to save lives, FEMA could have moved into Texas, or even Louisiana and been on stand by. Instead it took them two days to get there. If a nuclear bomb goes off in downtown Portland, should I be expected to wait two days for FEMA? At least answer me that.

OK, let's go through this slowly, seeing as how you are commenting on the government of a country other than your own.

First, on Little Rock. Ike did indeed federalize the national guard.

To comply with the Brown v. Board decision, plans were made to integrate Central High School in September of 1957. When nine black high school students arrived to attend Central High, they were met by an angry crowd. Despite his pledges of cooperation, the governor of Arkansas, Orval Faubus, in fact, ordered the Arkansas National Guard to keep the black students, known as the "Little Rock Nine," out of the school. Faced with this defiance of a federal court order, President Dwight Eisenhower responded by sending troops from the 101st Airborne to Little Rock with orders to protect the nine students. Eisenhower also federalized the Arkansas National Guard. This marked the first time since Reconstruction that federal troops were sent to the South.

Link


The main point is that the only state power the president can take away is the command of the national guard. The president can't just depose the state government. That would be a coup d'etat. The only time the federal government has that power is in a case of insurrection.

The idea that the federal government is superior to the states is half right. A little bit of knowledge can get you into a lot of trouble. The supremacy clause (which is what you are talking about) applies primarily to federal legislative acts. (It also applies to treaties, and executive agreements). It doesn't give the president (the executive branch of the federal government) the power to take away the power of the executive branch of the state governments to govern over their own territories. That is power reserved to the states by the Tenth Amendment.

The federal government is a government of limited powers. The federal government can only act where granted explicit powers under the federal constitution. FEMA is a federal agency, it can only do what it is empowered by Congress to do and Congress itself is limited in what it can empower a federal agency to do. Neither Congress nor any agency it creates can simply ride roughshod over the states.

What the federal government apparently did was ask the state of Louisiana to voluntarily cede temporary authority to the federal government. That was within the power of the Governor to do, but she refused. You said you expect politicians to put their egos aside. That is in effect what the federal government asked her to do, but she refused. Once she refused, the federal government could not take by force powers that she did not voluntarily cede to it. That would have been a lawless act. Maybe Canadians have less respect for their constitutional principles of government than Americans do, I don't know. But I do know that what you expect was always out of the question.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by asmack

Oh come now. Do you really believe that? What about all that parking space with all those cars surrounding the Superdome. You don't think that's strong enough to hold a few air drops of food and water?

Given that all that parking space was elevated, I don't know. You can't tell these sorts of things from the air. Go ask a civil engineer.

Also, why were they able to move food in on Friday then? The waters did not recede any, so what is the difference?

Actually, by that point the roads to the Superdome were clear enough that they could get it in by truck. No need for air drops.

Why couldn't they get the food in earlier?

We've been over this many times now. To get the food in earlier, they would have needed large numbers of hovercraft, something that's generally not kept in large numbers.

All they had to do was watch the bloody news to know what was going on for crying out loud!

Do you honestly think they did not know what was going on? It was New Orleans that was flooded, not Hogsmeade; reality can still interfere with the plans if you get hit by something unforeseeable.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

What the federal government apparently did was ask the state of Louisiana to voluntarily cede temporary authority to the federal government. That was within the power of the Governor to do, but she refused. You said you expect politicians to put their egos aside. That is in effect what the federal government asked her to do, but she refused. Once she refused, the federal government could not take by force powers that she did not voluntarily cede to it. That would have been a lawless act. Maybe Canadians have less respect for their constitutional principles of government than Americans do, I don't know. But I do know that what you expect was always out of the question.

There's nothing to prevent FEMA from simply getting ready or even riding into town, helping people evacuate under their own free will. FEMA doesn't have to force anything. FEMA can simply say "The state is in charge, but we are also providing these services to those who choose to take them". It's not complicated.

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

Partisan hate.
Stupid stupid stupid.

What president hasn't.
Geez.

Partisan? I'm not even American you moron. My political views are actually more conservative than liberal, but it's not politics I'm complaining about here. It's the doofus in the White House that deserves criticism. For crying out loud, haven't you been reading the news? Even a lot of Republicans are calling the federal response to Katrina pathetic:

http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1125758917.shtml

http://www.wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=3801660

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?n...id=44551&rfi=6

Republican Gov. Mitt Romney of Massachusetts called the government’s response "an embarrassment.’’

You're the one trying to politicize this, whereas I am saying the guy in the White House is bloody incompetent. I mean, laughing and playing guitar while people are starving and dying? I don't care if he's Democrat, Republican, Libertarian or whatever political party he belongs to. Bush is an incompetent, insensitive idiot.

On Friday, after touring the devastated parts, he was even cracking jokes and laughing it up on national TV:

Here's what I believe. I believe that the great city of New Orleans will rise again and be a greater city of New Orleans. (Applause.) I believe the town where I used to come from, Houston, Texas, to enjoy myself -- occasionally too much -- (laughter) -- will be that very same town, that it will be a better place to come to. That's what I believe.

What a bloody moron.

I give Bush credit for saying the federal response was unacceptable, but would it kill him to apologize for once? To say, "Hey, I'm sorry, folks of New Orleans. We in Washington could have and should have acted faster. I take full responsibility for the delay in rescue efforts." Would it kill him to say this?

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by goMac

There's nothing to prevent FEMA from simply getting ready or even riding into town, helping people evacuate under their own free will. FEMA doesn't have to force anything. FEMA can simply say "The state is in charge, but we are also providing these services to those who choose to take them". It's not complicated.

What do you imagine that FEMA is? It's not a million man army. It's a fairly small group of experts who coordinate assets. Those assets belong primarily to the state. They could not wrest command of those assets unless given permission.

I'll put this as politely as I can: maybe you should keep to commenting on your own country and your own government. You obviously know next to nothing about this one.

Originally Posted by Millennium

Do you honestly think they did not know what was going on? It was New Orleans that was flooded, not Hogsmeade; reality can still interfere with the plans if you get hit by something unforeseeable.

Puh-lease. Did you even read the links I provided? A CNN anchor had to tell the head of FEMA that people had been inside the convention center for DAYS:

Yet, Brown told CNN's "Paula Zahn Now" Thursday evening that federal officials only found out about the unfolding humanitarian crisis at the convention center earlier in the day -- despite the fact that city officials had been telling people for days to take shelter there.

Doesn't anybody on the FEMA staff watch the news? The rest of America knew about this--why didn't FEMA?

Originally Posted by Millennium

Given that all that parking space was elevated, I don't know. You can't tell these sorts of things from the air. Go ask a civil engineer.

So that parking space could hold the weight of all those cars, and yet not be able to hold a few sacks of food? Come on...

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

What do you imagine that FEMA is? It's not a million man army. It's a fairly small group of experts who coordinate assets. Those assets belong primarily to the state. They could not wrest command of those assets unless given permission.

I'll put this as politely as I can: maybe you should keep to commenting on your own country and your own government. You obviously know next to nothing about this one.

All they needed to do was drop SOME food and water for the neediest people: the sick, the elderly, small children, etc. I certainly did not expect them to feed everyone in the Superdome all at once. Certainly the healthier adults could have waited a few more days for more food and water. Is this asking too much? You certainly don't need a million man army to accomplish this! Ever heard of triage?

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by asmack

All they needed to do was drop SOME food and water for the neediest people: the sick, the elderly, small children, etc. I certainly did not expect them to feed everyone in the Superdome all at once. Certainly the healthier adults could have waited a few more days for more food and water. Is this asking too much? You certainly don't need a million man army to accomplish this! Ever heard of triage?

I give up. Every ****ing non-American is an expert on the US government.



Just mind your own business form here on out. Yours is the kind of busybody "concern" we can live without.

[spauldingg]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

What do you imagine that FEMA is? It's not a million man army. It's a fairly small group of experts who coordinate assets. Those assets belong primarily to the state. They could not wrest command of those assets unless given permission.

I'm stopping my usual knee jerk reactions and just wondering if this is relevant: (pdf)
dated august 28th

[Stegabot]

goMac,The Federal government has a much better chance of getting to you faster in the dirty bomb scenario than with natural disasters.Of course,if a nuke exploded while there is an earthquake going on of about 8 in the ritcher scale,then you and the City of Portland will have a problem.Why? unless the roads and bridges are damaged and the airport runaways are still functional,the first rescue and relief troops will be there within an hour or two and in less than 24 hours,the whole Federal government will have a system ready to help those who suffered from the effects of nuke.
You don't get it do you,The Federal government were trying to give both State and city officials room where they can make mature,intelligent decisions.But if they force their way into a situation where they are not needed,they will just be a hindrance even if the said state and local officials are incompetent.FEMA is a federal agency,that said,it's up to the local authorities to say to the Feds,hey guys,we need your help pronto.If I am a competent governor and I have a competent mayor in New Orleans,I would definitely resent having the Feds intruding in even they if they have just cause.Secondly,they are violating the Tenth amendment if they usurp both state and local government for barging in like that.

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

I give up. Every ****ing non-American is an expert on the US government.



Just mind your own business form here on out. Yours is the kind of busybody "concern" we can live without.

Democrats AND Republicans from your very own country have called the federal response to Katrina pathetic and an embarrassment. How do you respond to that? Do you deny this? Instead, all you do is spin, rationalize and justify the incompetence that was on display all last week.

Heaven forbid that your country ever faces a dirty bomb or nuclear detonation by some terrorists in one of your big cities, because based on the response to Katrina, that city doesn't have a hope or prayer of receiving fast, orderly help from Washington.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by goMac

This is a failure because this is exactly what FEMA was designed for. Now are we supposed to trust FEMA when Al Quada detonates 2 or 3 nukes in a large city? I mean, this is EXACTLY the sort of work they are supposed to be ready. I don't mean to be rude, but FEMA is not a group of students. It's a bunch of guys GETTING PAID to solve problems like these. And it's quite clear they don't know how. Foreign governments seem to be far better prepared to solve our problems.

Is EVERY ONE of you who are ragging on the Federal govt. forgetting the way government works? Or are you intentionally, conveeeeniently forgetting?

The Federal government most always yields and can not override the state and local jurisdiction or States rights.

Three days before the storm the Fed's Mike Brown was announcing BUT NOT ORDERING the people and the local governments to evacuate because this was going to be a dangerous storm. THREE DAYS BEFORE.

Three days before Katrina hit, President Bush declared the three Gulf states disaster areas, enabling the State and local governments to make use of Federal govt resources toward preparing for the ravages of Katrina. THREE DAYS BEFORE.

Who knew better than the state and local governments what needed to be done to protect the people of NOLA but their LOCAL ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES?

With the warning from the feds that this was going to be a bad one, with the advice that everyone should evacuate and with the green light that the money to handle whatever was needed to "get 'er done," WHAT MORE COULD THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DO???

BE REAL.

Now, AFTER the storm the headlines read, "NO Dodged A Bullet." The storm had veered East and the levees had held. The priority was to RESCUE PEOPLE FROM THE TOPS OF ROOFS and save as many of those who were close to succumbing to the hurricane and before the disaster relief could mount in earnest, the levees broke.

The process of rescuing survivors became even more important and even more difficult with water in many places 20 feet deep the rescue effort was stymied, yet had to continue. The relief effort was stymied, yet it had to continue.

In lieu of losing rescuers AND rescued, in lieu of having rescue vehicles and supplies be risked in an obviously futile attempt to provide relief to those affected, the federal government had to coordinate with a panicked and ineffective state and local government to come up with a workable plan.

The president was so concerned that he brought in managers who were able to adequately handle this situation and sought to take over this responsibility from the hands the overwhelmed state and local officials and sought to do so without making the locals lose face.

The Federal government did what it should have done and when the locals didn't or couldn't do what they were supposed to do the federal government stepped in to do even MORE because they HAD to.

It reminds me of the Grand Parents who have to become legal guardians of the grandkids only because the parents were unable to properly care for their children. Any criticisms that might take place AFTER the still ongoing crisis has been resolved WILL show the federal govt did what it had to do. And because it was forced to take up the slack which SHOULD have been the responsibility of the locals it may recieve undue criticism for doing the job less efficiently as it does and did it's rightful job.

But, if the Federal govt. HADN'T stepped into the breech the loss of life and suffering would be even GREATER than it has been so far.