Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Katrina proves federal government incompetent

Katrina proves federal government incompetent (Page 6)
Thread Tools
busterhide
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 07:35 PM
 
From reading this thread it is pretty clear some folks need to study up on how their government works. Knowledge of how local, State, and Federal jurisdictions operate would clear up a lot of our citizens frustrations. What scares me is the 4th estate seems to be perpetuating this lack of knowledge. I know steering the pot makes for dramatic stories but all this talk just shows ignorance on the part of these self proclaimed journalists. Rule one, when reporting a story, try to at least have an idea what you are talking about.
As an emerging hero of this operation has stated. "We are not Stuck on Stupid."
"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers" -Thomas Jefferson
     
Stegabot
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago,IL, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 07:41 PM
 
Guess what,The American government has much better chance of dealing with a nuke than with a natural disaster,why? Simply put,a natural disaster like earthquakes,tsunamis,volcanic eruptions,hurricanes had too many variables to contend with and you don't know what kind of damage will nature do to your infrastructure and command and control.With nukes,at least everyone has an idea and every American city or town ( I hope) has a state and local contigency plan that can be merge with the Federal overall disaster plan.In addition to this,the US military through DOD has contingency plans for such a situation,so in this matter,the US is arguably prepared for it.
What the Federal government and the people of Louisiana and New Orleans were not prepared for was the lack of initiative and forethought of said state and city officials before,during and after the disaster.
Computers are tools that we use and are the extension of our brains,not the other way around.
     
Stegabot
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago,IL, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 07:42 PM
 
busterhide
Sadly you are right.
Computers are tools that we use and are the extension of our brains,not the other way around.
     
HamSandwich
Guest
Status:
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 07:48 PM
 
To all those defending the government's response to Katrina (both locally and federally):

You guys are right, the rest of us are wrong. Please accept our humble apologies.

The response was absolutely textbook and flawless. The people in the devastated areas could not have asked for more. Heaps of praise should be showered on the President, the Governor of Louisiana, the mayor of New Orleans, the head of FEMA and the head of Homeland Security. Their efforts are to be applauded and awarded. Their response was absolutely first rate and efficient.

Let's just forget that the President himself called the response "unacceptable." Let's just bury that little slip, shall we? He didn't know what he was talking about.

Also, let's ignore the criticisms of prominent senators and congressmen from both parties who said that the federal response was "pathetic" and "an embarrassment". These people are obviously deluded and we should not pay them any attention. It is THEY who are pathetic and an embarrasment to America. I mean, how DARE they speak their minds and criticize the government? Who the hell are they to talk?
     
Sky Captain
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Second star to the right, and straight on till morning
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 07:49 PM
 
Too many people are expecting instant gratification.
I blame it on instant everything that life has become.
Like playing a video game or watching an action movie. Quick timelines.

Well this is no video game where pressing the right butons saves your city from ruin.
Or a Kurano Reeves movie where he saves the city with a convoy of trucks.


Remember in Indonesia there was criticism of the response there.
Now it's all but forgotten.

When's the next big feature showing?
     
mojo2
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 07:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by asmack
Partisan? I'm not even American you moron. My political views are actually more conservative than liberal, but it's not politics I'm complaining about here. It's the doofus in the White House that deserves criticism. For crying out loud, haven't you been reading the news? Even a lot of Republicans are calling the federal response to Katrina pathetic:

http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1125758917.shtml

http://www.wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=3801660

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?n...id=44551&rfi=6

You're the one trying to politicize this, whereas I am saying the guy in the White House is bloody incompetent. I mean, laughing and playing guitar while people are starving and dying? I don't care if he's Democrat, Republican, Libertarian or whatever political party he belongs to. Bush is an incompetent, insensitive idiot.

On Friday, after touring the devastated parts, he was even cracking jokes and laughing it up on national TV:

What a bloody moron.

I give Bush credit for saying the federal response was unacceptable, but would it kill him to apologize for once? To say, "Hey, I'm sorry, folks of New Orleans. We in Washington could have and should have acted faster. I take full responsibility for the delay in rescue efforts." Would it kill him to say this?
If your local city government sees you are not well caring for your family, how soon should it take over for you, hmm?
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
Sky Captain
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Second star to the right, and straight on till morning
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 07:55 PM
 
I give Bush credit for saying the federal response was unacceptable, but would it kill him to apologize for once? To say, "Hey, I'm sorry, folks of New Orleans. We in Washington could have and should have acted faster. I take full responsibility for the delay in rescue efforts."
Because it's not his fault!

Like Miami was not Clinton's fault.

Has anyone see Homestead besides me?
Talk about a devistated poor community.
And it's still just that.
     
Stegabot
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago,IL, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 08:00 PM
 
Nobody was saying it was perfect,in fact in my opinion it was a disaster.But your problem was you cannot seem to understand that in THIS Country,the State and Local city governments have the responsibility to be prepared for any disaster whether natural or man made which they have contingency plans for with the cooperation of FEMA and the Federal government.But which they themselves,not FEMA nor the Federal government must initiate and follow.If they think they are way over their heads,then,they will tell FEMA and the President that they need their help,then will the Federals act.The Federal government is constitutionally bound to wait for a request for help before it intervenes short of an act of war or invasion .It's the law of the land.
Computers are tools that we use and are the extension of our brains,not the other way around.
     
Sky Captain
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Second star to the right, and straight on till morning
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 08:02 PM
 
And until then, it's up to the citizens to act.
We're a republic, not socialists.
     
Millennium
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 08:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by asmack
So that parking space could hold the weight of all those cars, and yet not be able to hold a few sacks of food? Come on...
First of all, we're not talking "a few sacks of food". Meal packets are not leaflets, scattered over the ground willy-nilly from a bomb port. They're dropped in large (and heavy) packs, so that they can be gathered and distributed more easily. They can be lowered on a cable, but this requires a crew to detach it; more often they're dropped from a parachute, and even then they hit the ground at some 50-60 miles per hour(75-90kph). That's a lot of force to slam into the middle of a parking garage, particularly since the building is almost certainly made of concrete and therefore isn't going to absorb the energy of the collision very well. If we assume a one-ton food drop, then the impact force on concrete is roughly the equivalent of a half-ton of TNT; not in the leage of nuclear weapons but still one hell of a shock.

Sure, it's holding a lot of cars at the moment. How much more can it take? If you could get into the building and assess its structural integrity, you might be able to find out, but they had neither the manpower nor the time to do that; those assessments take quite a while. Of course, if you could move the cars, then you might be able to be reasonably sure that the garage could withstand the force of an airdrop, but how are you going to move the cars? Furthermore, is it safe to move the cars before checking the building? If a car drives over a weak spot it could very well cause damage, and if that weak spot is in a particularly unfortunate place the damage could ripple throughout the entire structure, causing much more loss of property and possibly even life.

These are not far-fetched scenarios. These are things rescuers have to be able to take into account, and when they can't they have to err on the side of caution.
You are in Soviet Russia. It is dark. Grue is likely to be eaten by YOU!
     
HamSandwich
Guest
Status:
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 08:06 PM
 
Spin, rationalize, justify.

Rinse and repeat as desired...
     
Sky Captain
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Second star to the right, and straight on till morning
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 08:12 PM
 
Hardly.

I got my dispatch.
I'll be carrying a load of nurses and EMT's to Baton Rough.
There's no radar service.
I get to excercise my military training with the AWACS controllers.
That's why I was chosen to fly this mission.


And spout ignorance
Repeate as desired.
     
Stegabot
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago,IL, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 08:13 PM
 
Asmack
When a natural disaster occurs in your homeland,we will see how great your disaster preparedness program really is especially when there is a tremendous loss of life and property is involved.If it isn't up to snuff,I'll just post this thread and point out how hypocritical you are when you start posting that we Americans know nothing about how your government works and do things in times of distress.Nothing personal.
Cheers.
Computers are tools that we use and are the extension of our brains,not the other way around.
     
SimeyTheLimey
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Alexandria, VA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 08:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by spauldingg
I'm stopping my usual knee jerk reactions and just wondering if this is relevant: (pdf)
dated august 28th
It's a request that the president declare a disaster so that the state could get access to federal disaster relief funds. This is so the state could use its own resources without depleting the state coffers. Reading the request, the primary purpose is to fund the evacuation.

The request from the Governor for the disaster declaration is dated the 28th of August. The president declared the disaster on either the 28th or the 29th. This press release announcing so is dated the 29th of August. So the Governor's request was complied with. That's not surprising considering that Bush asked her before the storm to order a mandatory evacuation:

Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding.
AP

What's your point?
( Last edited by SimeyTheLimey; Sep 4, 2005 at 08:23 PM. )
     
busterhide
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 08:33 PM
 
Critiquing the government is one of the greatest freedoms we have. It is so much more effective when the criticism is informed and accurate. What actually happened and is still happening is not known to everyone involved. This will take time. One thing that is coming out is the results started to show on saturday. As more information is gathered we as a nation may see how this all fell into place. It is so early in this to have any answers. I was a firemen for 25 years and I know how folks on the sidelines form opinions on what they thought was going on. Emergency operations get debriefed and analyzed after the emergency is over. Lessons get learned and operations get overhauled. I'm sure with this operation a new book will have to be written. Something this big has never happened in this country. So lets let the folks acutely doing good things get to it. The rest of us on the side lines will just have to wait. I know it is frustrating, we all want to jump through the TV and just do something. Give money, volunteer at your local Chapter, huge your kids and thank god your were not in the middle of it. When we get over this, read up on how your community handles things. If you feel something like this could happen in your area, well it looks like you might want to get involved, make some changes, why maybe even vote. Amazing that people are finding out new things about what happened on 9-11 even now, years later. For myself I'm gonna wait to make my judgment on how this went down. I have empathy on everyone involved in this. My brothers and sisters are in the middle of a sh*t storm and wish I could just snap my fingers and make it right, but I guess I will have to settle for doing what I can from the sidelines. So yell, rant and rave. After that go out and do something. I hope the something you do is positive. I have to get back to the red cross office now and hit the phones again.
"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers" -Thomas Jefferson
     
HamSandwich
Guest
Status:
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 08:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Stegabot
Asmack
When a natural disaster occurs in your homeland,we will see how great your disaster preparedness program really is especially when there is a tremendous loss of life and property is involved.If it isn't up to snuff,I'll just post this thread and point out how hypocritical you are when you start posting that we Americans know nothing about how your government works and do things in times of distress.Nothing personal.
Cheers.
Oh, I KNOW that we aren't prepared up here, believe me. All we do is argue in Parliament until we're blue in the face. Our federal response will be just as bad or even worse than the American federal repsonse to Katrina.

But at least we'll have the guts and humility to admit it...
     
mojo2
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 08:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by asmack
From your link:

From his link...

In a Washington briefing, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said one reason federal assets were not used more quickly was "because our constitutional system really places the primary authority in each state with the governor."
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
Stegabot
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago,IL, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 08:39 PM
 
If I remembered correctly,the US President did say that in regards to Federal part,Did Governor Blanco or even the mayor of New Orleans ever bothered to say that they screwed up as well .Nope,guess not.
Computers are tools that we use and are the extension of our brains,not the other way around.
     
mojo2
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 08:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by asmack
To all those defending the government's response to Katrina (both locally and federally):

You guys are right, the rest of us are wrong. Please accept our humble apologies.

The response was absolutely textbook and flawless. The people in the devastated areas could not have asked for more. Heaps of praise should be showered on the President, the Governor of Louisiana, the mayor of New Orleans, the head of FEMA and the head of Homeland Security. Their efforts are to be applauded and awarded. Their response was absolutely first rate and efficient.

Let's just forget that the President himself called the response "unacceptable." Let's just bury that little slip, shall we? He didn't know what he was talking about.

Also, let's ignore the criticisms of prominent senators and congressmen from both parties who said that the federal response was "pathetic" and "an embarrassment". These people are obviously deluded and we should not pay them any attention. It is THEY who are pathetic and an embarrasment to America. I mean, how DARE they speak their minds and criticize the government? Who the hell are they to talk?
While the process of helping rescue and provide relief is still under way it's a bit unseemly to be casting blame, but if you insist on persuing this...

Some people are always going to begin looking for someone to blame. In a way this is understandable as people should be held accountable. On the other hand, the people who are most likely to be the first to rush to assign blame are:

1) Those who are guilty of something and want to shift attention away from themselves.
2) Those who are playing politics and have lost in previous rounds of battle and use ANY event as an opportunity and justification for a new attack.
3) Ambulance chasers who have something materially to gain.

Me thinks you are more likely in the #2 category.
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
HamSandwich
Guest
Status:
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 08:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by mojo2
While the process of helping rescue and provide relief is still under way it's a bit unseemly to be casting blame, but if you insist on persuing this...

Some people are always going to begin looking for someone to blame. In a way this is understandable as people should be held accountable. On the other hand, the people who are most likely to be the first to rush to assign blame are:

1) Those who are guilty of something and want to shift attention away from themselves.
2) Those who are playing politics and have lost in previous rounds of battle and use ANY event as an opportunity and justification for a new attack.
3) Ambulance chasers who have something materially to gain.

Me thinks you are more likely in the #2 category.
WRONG.
     
mojo2
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 08:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by asmack
WRONG.
Well, as you have been WRONG so greatly and so often here I hope you won't slight my being wrong just this once (in an admitted trolling motion).

Yeah, so what IS your excuse?
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
spauldingg
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Rochester NY
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 09:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey
It's a request that the president declare a disaster so that the state could get access to federal disaster relief funds. This is so the state could use its own resources without depleting the state coffers. Reading the request, the primary purpose is to fund the evacuation.

The request from the Governor for the disaster declaration is dated the 28th of August. The president declared the disaster on either the 28th or the 29th. This press release announcing so is dated the 29th of August. So the Governor's request was complied with. That's not surprising considering that Bush asked her before the storm to order a mandatory evacuation:



AP

What's your point?
No point. Just wondering what exactly it was and where it fits in the timeline. Thanks for clarifying and providing the other link.
“The love of liberty is the love of others; the love of power is the love of ourselves.” -- William Hazlitt
     
mojo2
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 09:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by asmack
Oh, I KNOW that we aren't prepared up here, believe me. All we do is argue in Parliament until we're blue in the face. Our federal response will be just as bad or even worse than the American federal repsonse to Katrina.

But at least we'll have the guts and humility to admit it...
You're just a Canadian Bush Whacker! No, I think I was right about your being a cat. #2 blowhard partisan politicker. Why not go and do what you do best, fry up some back bacon and pop open a brewski and look forward to hockey night!

Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
HamSandwich
Guest
Status:
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 09:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by mojo2
Well, as you have been WRONG so greatly and so often here I hope you won't slight my being wrong just this once (in an admitted trolling motion).

Yeah, so what IS your excuse?
Since you obviously have not read or commented on ANY of the links I have provided, I won't even diginify this with a response.
     
mojo2
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 09:13 PM
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...090301680.html

Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said. As of Saturday, Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency, the senior Bush official said.

"The federal government stands ready to work with state and local officials to secure New Orleans and the state of Louisiana," White House spokesman Dan Bartlett said. "The president will not let any form of bureaucracy get in the way of protecting the citizens of Louisiana."

Blanco made two moves Saturday that protected her independence from the federal government: She created a philanthropic fund for the state's victims and hired James Lee Witt, Federal Emergency Management Agency director in the Clinton administration, to advise her on the relief effort.

Bush, who has been criticized, even by supporters, for the delayed response to the disaster, used his weekly radio address to put responsibility for the failure on lower levels of government. The magnitude of the crisis "has created tremendous problems that have strained state and local capabilities," he said. "The result is that many of our citizens simply are not getting the help they need, especially in New Orleans. And that is unacceptable."
The President was CLEARLY but subtly letting it be known the state and local response was unacceptable.

You guys are FOREIGN AGENTS AND CLOWNS!!!

Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
HamSandwich
Guest
Status:
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 09:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by mojo2
You're just a Canadian Bush Whacker! No, I think I was right about your being a cat. #2 blowhard partisan politicker. Why not go and do what you do best, fry up some back bacon and pop open a brewski and look forward to hockey night!

Shows how much you know. I actually voted against Paul Martin (Liberal) in the last Canadian federal election because of his incompetence and was rooting for Bush against John Kerry last November, based on Kerry's incompetent, incoherent campaign.

You see, I don't care what political party a person is from. I just care if that peron is competent or not. And Bush Jr. is proving to be one of the most incompetent idiots to ever hold office. I wish Kerry or McCain or even Howard Dean were in office now. Any one of them would be doing a better job than what Bush is doing now.
     
HamSandwich
Guest
Status:
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 09:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by mojo2
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...090301680.html



The President was CLEARLY but subtly letting it be known the state and local response was unacceptable.

You guys are FOREIGN AGENTS AND CLOWNS!!!

Sigh...

From your link:

CORRECTION TO THIS ARTICLE
A Sept. 4 article on the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina incorrectly said that Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D) had not declared a state of emergency. She declared an emergency on Aug. 26.
     
mojo2
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 09:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by asmack
Since you obviously have not read or commented on ANY of the links I have provided, I won't even diginify this with a response.
Well, you got SOMETHING right! No, I haven't read any of the extraneous, smokescreen info that muddies the waters here and confuses the issue.

I didn't even LOOK at this thread until very early this morning because I thought it was unseemly to start casting blame. Then as I waded through the back and forth bickering
I tried to quickly find the pertinent facts. It wasn't difficult.

Everything else is just emotion based finger pointing. The truth is established. The state and locals dropped the ball and the feds had to step in and because this is not their primary job in this type of disaster and because of the nature of the disaster they did the best they could in a job that wasn't supposed to be theirs. But once they geared up for it and started to do the job, it was done quickly and well.

The blame is on the locals.

The truth needs nothing from you to "dignify" it.
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
mojo2
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 09:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by asmack
Sigh...

From your link:
Ahhhh!

So, let's get this straight.

The Feds declared it a disaster. The State had declared it a disaster. So. Who dropped the ball???

Come on, I know you can say it...

Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
HamSandwich
Guest
Status:
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 09:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by mojo2
Well, you got SOMETHING right! No, I haven't read any of the extraneous, smokescreen info that muddies the waters here and confuses the issue.

I didn't even LOOK at this thread until very early this morning because I thought it was unseemly to start casting blame. Then as I waded through the back and forth bickering
I tried to quickly find the pertinent facts. It wasn't difficult.

Everything else is just emotion based finger pointing. The truth is established. The state and locals dropped the ball and the feds had to step in and because this is not their primary job in this type of disaster and because of the nature of the disaster they did the best they could in a job that wasn't supposed to be theirs. But once they geared up for it and started to do the job, it was done quickly and well.

The blame is on the locals.

The truth needs nothing from you to "dignify" it.
So you're saying that the state and local agents are 100% to blame, and the feds are 100% blameless? That mayor Nagin's rant was all a bunch of lies and fairy tales?

Come on, I was willing to give you more credit than that!
     
dreilly1
Mac Elite
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 09:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey
It's a request that the president declare a disaster so that the state could get access to federal disaster relief funds. This is so the state could use its own resources without depleting the state coffers. Reading the request, the primary purpose is to fund the evacuation.

The request from the Governor for the disaster declaration is dated the 28th of August. The president declared the disaster on either the 28th or the 29th. This press release announcing so is dated the 29th of August. So the Governor's request was complied with. That's not surprising considering that Bush asked her before the storm to order a mandatory evacuation:
Hmmm... Let's look at that Washington Post article again now:
The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law. Some officials in the state suspected a political motive behind the request. "Quite frankly, if they'd been able to pull off taking it away from the locals, they then could have blamed everything on the locals," said the source, who does not have the authority to speak publicly.

A senior administration official said that Bush has clear legal authority to federalize National Guard units to quell civil disturbances under the Insurrection Act and will continue to try to unify the chains of command that are split among the president, the Louisiana governor and the New Orleans mayor.
Is "unified control over all local police and state National Guard units" normally given to the Federal Government in a situation like this? This might have been a big disaster, but it was hardly the first one. Florida has seen many Category 5 hurricanes, and I don't ever remember this much of an argument over who controls the law enforcement aspect of things. Perhaps the Feds thought they needed this level of control, since there were going to be massive relief operations in at least three states. But it certainly seems like this request threw Louisiana for a loop.

The PDF letter shows that the advance planning between the Feds and the State was going well at one point -- the state anticipated the disaster and triggered the proper conditions for the Feds to help out. But it seems like it all started to fall apart once the Feds asked for control over the police force, doesn't it?

-----

Edit: Never mind, I got the dates wrong. I thought this was the Friday right before the storm. Makes a big difference, huh?
( Last edited by dreilly1; Sep 4, 2005 at 10:08 PM. )

Member of the the Stupid Brigade! (If you see Sponsored Links in any of my posts, please PM me!)
     
mojo2
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 09:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by asmack
Shows how much you know. I actually voted against Paul Martin (Liberal) in the last Canadian federal election because of his incompetence and was rooting for Bush against John Kerry last November, based on Kerry's incompetent, incoherent campaign.

You see, I don't care what political party a person is from. I just care if that peron is competent or not. And Bush Jr. is proving to be one of the most incompetent idiots to ever hold office. I wish Kerry or McCain or even Howard Dean were in office now. Any one of them would be doing a better job than what Bush is doing now.
And I wish Dudley Frickkin Do-Right was your Governor General. Aberdeen writer coined the phrase Foreign Agent when talking about people who aren't even citizens having a say about American issues. You have NO SAY in this. So go stfu and trap yourself a beaver or something.

Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
mojo2
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 09:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by dreilly1
Hmmm... Let's look at that Washington Post article again now:


Is "unified control over all local police and state National Guard units" normally given to the Federal Government in a situation like this? This might have been a big disaster, but it was hardly the first one. Florida has seen many Category 5 hurricanes, and I don't ever remember this much of an argument over who controls the law enforcement aspect of things. Perhaps the Feds thought they needed this level of control, since there were going to be massive relief operations in at least three states. But it certainly seems like this request threw Louisiana for a loop.

The PDF letter shows that the advance planning between the Feds and the State was going well at one point -- the state anticipated the disaster and triggered the proper conditions for the Feds to help out. But it seems like it all started to fall apart once the Feds asked for control over the police force, doesn't it?
I'm of the impression that when the feds saw things weren't happening the way they should have been they wanted to take over to make sure things got done for the benefit of the citizens involved.

It very much reminds me of a child custody battle between a properly loving and capable Grandparent vs. an immature, incompetent parent.

The parent wants it's right of sovereignty more than it wants what's best for the child.

The Grandparent wants what's best for the child.

The parent is usually given benefit of the doubt.

But in my mind there is no doubt the locals weren't able to do the job needed and this will become clearer as time goes by.
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
HamSandwich
Guest
Status:
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 09:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by mojo2
And I wish Dudley Frickkin Do-Right was your Governor General. Aberdeen writer coined the phrase Foreign Agent when talking about people who aren't even citizens having a say about American issues. You have NO SAY in this. So go stfu and trap yourself a beaver or something.

Whatever, kid.
     
mojo2
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 09:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by asmack
So you're saying that the state and local agents are 100% to blame, and the feds are 100% blameless? That mayor Nagin's rant was all a bunch of lies and fairy tales?

Come on, I was willing to give you more credit than that!
See, that's what you Canadians fail to understand. Some things are black and white. Don't give me credit for anything but being right or wrong. When you are wrong I will say so. When you are right, I will say so.

Mayor Nagin had lost control waaay beforehand and that is PRECISELY why he was so emotional. He KNEW the part he had played in the disaster and there was nothing more he could do but react out of anger and guilt and frustration and pain. He was using emotion to get a response to help his citizens.

In Top Gun's final dog fight Iceman was trying to get in position on the enemy fighter to make a kill shot and he stayed with the enemy plane as long as he could until he wasn't able to get the shot. He realized he had to relinguish the attack to Maverick.

Mayor Nagin realized he could do no more and relinquished the job of rescue and relief to the feds but then he made it look as though the feds were the ones to blame.

It's called cover your ass.
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
HamSandwich
Guest
Status:
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 09:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by mojo2
See, that's what you Canadians fail to understand. Some things are black and white. Don't give me credit for anything but being right or wrong. When you are wrong I will say so. When you are right, I will say so.

Mayor Nagin had lost control waaay beforehand and that is PRECISELY why he was so emotional. He KNEW the part he had played in the disaster and there was nothing more he could do but react out of anger and guilt and frustration and pain. He was using emotion to get a response to help his citizens.

In Top Gun's final dog fight Iceman was trying to get in position on the enemy fighter to make a kill shot and he stayed with the enemy plane as long as he could until he wasn't able to get the shot. He realized he had to relinguish the attack to Maverick.

Mayor Nagin realized he could do no more and relinquished the job of rescue and relief to the feds but then he made it look as though the feds were the ones to blame.

It's called cover your ass.
You didn't answer my question. Are the feds 100% blameless?
     
dreilly1
Mac Elite
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 10:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by mojo2
I'm of the impression that when the feds saw things weren't happening the way they should have been they wanted to take over to make sure things got done for the benefit of the citizens involved.
Oh wait, I got my timeline confused. That request came this Friday, not the Friday before.

Never mind.... I thought the Feds wanted to take over before the storm hit land.

Carry on.....

Member of the the Stupid Brigade! (If you see Sponsored Links in any of my posts, please PM me!)
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 10:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by mojo2
See, that's what you Canadians fail to understand. Some things are black and white. Don't give me credit for anything but being right or wrong. When you are wrong I will say so. When you are right, I will say so.

Mayor Nagin had lost control waaay beforehand and that is PRECISELY why he was so emotional. He KNEW the part he had played in the disaster and there was nothing more he could do but react out of anger and guilt and frustration and pain. He was using emotion to get a response to help his citizens.

In Top Gun's final dog fight Iceman was trying to get in position on the enemy fighter to make a kill shot and he stayed with the enemy plane as long as he could until he wasn't able to get the shot. He realized he had to relinguish the attack to Maverick.

Mayor Nagin realized he could do no more and relinquished the job of rescue and relief to the feds but then he made it look as though the feds were the ones to blame.

It's called cover your ass.

This is a perfectly valid argument based on procedures, rules, and normal bureaucratic methodologies. However, my only argument is: why didn't an official at least fly over, try to connect with what was going on, and then break with the normal policies and procedures once they found out that things weren't working right? This is one of those cases where I think it would have been impossible to have too many hands in the kitchen (or however that expression goes).

I think this is why Bush feels apologetic and has taken some blame by saying that the rescue efforts were unacceptable. I was shocked to hear him say something like that... definitely unusual.
     
Millennium
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 10:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by asmack
Spin, rationalize, justify.

Rinse and repeat as desired...
If you disagree with anything I have said, then refute it. If you can't, then make concessions as necessary or at least drop that particular issue. I afford this courtesy to those who argue against me, and I expect the same.

You seem to be responding in particular to my explanation as to why air drops could not have occurred in the places indicated, such as the parking garages. If you believe that air drops could have taken place, then please show where they could have been dropped. If you believe that I am mistaken in any of my explanations, then please suggest ways around the problems. For all I know, maybe there is some method for assessing the structural integrity of a building from the air. If there is then I've never heard of it, and I've no clue how it would work, but I'm willing to admit that there is a nonzero possibility that there might exist such a method. If there is, please inform me.

But if you intend to debate or argue with people on these boards, then argue with them. Dismissing things as "spin" without trying to counter them is very poor argumentative technique. I'd expect to hear it from a PR specialist spin-doctor, but not in an honest debate.
You are in Soviet Russia. It is dark. Grue is likely to be eaten by YOU!
     
Athens
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Great White North
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 10:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by mojo2
See, that's what you Canadians fail to understand. Some things are black and white. Don't give me credit for anything but being right or wrong. When you are wrong I will say so. When you are right, I will say so.

Mayor Nagin had lost control waaay beforehand and that is PRECISELY why he was so emotional. He KNEW the part he had played in the disaster and there was nothing more he could do but react out of anger and guilt and frustration and pain. He was using emotion to get a response to help his citizens.

In Top Gun's final dog fight Iceman was trying to get in position on the enemy fighter to make a kill shot and he stayed with the enemy plane as long as he could until he wasn't able to get the shot. He realized he had to relinguish the attack to Maverick.

Mayor Nagin realized he could do no more and relinquished the job of rescue and relief to the feds but then he made it look as though the feds were the ones to blame.

It's called cover your ass.
and that is the problem, the feds waited to long, and New Orleans is not the only place bitching about the help. Nagin had nothing to do with all the other towns and States hurt by this. In such a disaster the Feds which ever country it is should take over because its obvious its beyond the scope of local authorities.
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
SimeyTheLimey
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Alexandria, VA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 10:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Millennium
If you disagree with anything I have said, then refute it. If you can't, then make concessions as necessary or at least drop that particular issue. I afford this courtesy to those who argue against me, and I expect the same.

You seem to be responding in particular to my explanation as to why air drops could not have occurred in the places indicated, such as the parking garages. If you believe that air drops could have taken place, then please show where they could have been dropped. If you believe that I am mistaken in any of my explanations, then please suggest ways around the problems. For all I know, maybe there is some method for assessing the structural integrity of a building from the air. If there is then I've never heard of it, and I've no clue how it would work, but I'm willing to admit that there is a nonzero possibility that there might exist such a method. If there is, please inform me.

But if you intend to debate or argue with people on these boards, then argue with them. Dismissing things as "spin" without trying to counter them is very poor argumentative technique. I'd expect to hear it from a PR specialist spin-doctor, but not in an honest debate.
There's another issue also. I just watched the Secretary of Homeland Security being interviewed. He's in charge of the Coast Guard, among other agencies. He was asked about airlifting food and water. He commented that the priority for the helicopter crews (Coast Guard, Navy, etc) was rescuing people stranded on rooftops. The Coast Guard alone rescued 10,000 people in three days. That's 10,000 people winched up one at a time.

What would people prefer, use helicopters to feed people, or to let people drown? You can survive a few days without food, and even without water. But you can't hold your breath under rushing flood water for more than a minute or two. So people should be allowed to drown just to appease nitwits watching on cable TV? Don't they think that the military personnel in the area have some idea what they are doing?

And before some bright spark with no experience suggests air drops from fixed wing aircraft, those require much larger drop zones. Air drops from planes moving at over 100 knots are not that accurate.
     
placebo1969
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Washington (the state) USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 10:52 PM
 
I read this and I have to put my 2¢ in.

This was a disaster of unprecedented proportions. In a few months, there will be a Blue Ribbon Bi-Partisian Committee™ set up to look at what happened. There will be finger pointing from all sides. Changes will be recommended and hopefully made.

In the meantime, my wife and I have donated money and I'm going to see if I can donate blood. I'm O- (universal donor), but have a history of chemo (mentioned this in another thread) and haven't been able to donate in several years. Maybe they'll let me now.

In the MacNN Political/War Lounge, the finger pointing and smugness will continue.
     
Stegabot
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago,IL, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 11:00 PM
 
Simey and a lot of other posters already repeated this thing so many times,it ain't funny.The Federal government while powerful is limited to what the law of the land says it needs to do.The Federal government short of insurrection cannot usurp the authority of the elected state and local officials.It would a violation of the tenth amendment.The Federal government can ask the chief executive of a particular state to voluntary relinquish it's responsibilities for the duration of a disaster and if the governor says yes,then the Federal government will then take total responsibilty of the state's national guard,state police and various law enforcement agencies by Federalizing them into service and go from there.If the State governor says no,then all the Federal government can do is wait .Governor Blanco said no when President Bush ask her to temporarily relinquish her authority on August 28,2005 in writing to help the state cope with the hurricane.When it was rebuff, Louisiana was then on it's own.
Computers are tools that we use and are the extension of our brains,not the other way around.
     
Athens
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Great White North
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 11:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey
There's another issue also. I just watched the Secretary of Homeland Security being interviewed. He's in charge of the Coast Guard, among other agencies. He was asked about airlifting food and water. He commented that the priority for the helicopter crews (Coast Guard, Navy, etc) was rescuing people stranded on rooftops. The Coast Guard alone rescued 10,000 people in three days. That's 10,000 people winched up one at a time.

What would people prefer, use helicopters to feed people, or to let people drown? You can survive a few days without food, and even without water. But you can't hold your breath under rushing flood water for more than a minute or two. So people should be allowed to drown just to appease nitwits watching on cable TV? Don't they think that the military personnel in the area have some idea what they are doing?

And before some bright spark with no experience suggests air drops from fixed wing aircraft, those require much larger drop zones. Air drops from planes moving at over 100 knots are not that accurate.
Being on a roof top isnt a position of drowning, thats a position of being stranded. And the Coast Guard should be used for rescuing people, they are trained and equipped for that. The military should have been there in 2 days to drop soldiers into the areas needing policing, and no later then 3 days food and water drops. There is no reason why food and water was not dropped at the 2 places that had thousands of people waiting for something.
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 11:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Stegabot
Simey and a lot of other posters already repeated this thing so many times,it ain't funny.The Federal government while powerful is limited to what the law of the land says it needs to do.The Federal government short of insurrection cannot usurp the authority of the elected state and local officials.It would a violation of the tenth amendment.The Federal government can ask the chief executive of a particular state to voluntary relinquish it's responsibilities for the duration of a disaster and if the governor says yes,then the Federal government will then take total responsibilty of the state's national guard,state police and various law enforcement agencies by Federalizing them into service and go from there.If the State governor says no,then all the Federal government can do is wait .Governor Blanco said no when President Bush ask her to temporarily relinquish her authority on August 28,2005 in writing to help the state cope with the hurricane.When it was rebuff, Louisiana was then on it's own.

I didn't know this about the 10th amendment. Thanks for informing me.

It's a little odd that the federal government would want to overrule the court when it came to Terry Schiavo, but were happy to follow procedure here, but whatever... There are lots of things I"ll never understand!
     
Athens
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Great White North
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 11:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Stegabot
Simey and a lot of other posters already repeated this thing so many times,it ain't funny.The Federal government while powerful is limited to what the law of the land says it needs to do.The Federal government short of insurrection cannot usurp the authority of the elected state and local officials.It would a violation of the tenth amendment.The Federal government can ask the chief executive of a particular state to voluntary relinquish it's responsibilities for the duration of a disaster and if the governor says yes,then the Federal government will then take total responsibilty of the state's national guard,state police and various law enforcement agencies by Federalizing them into service and go from there.If the State governor says no,then all the Federal government can do is wait .Governor Blanco said no when President Bush ask her to temporarily relinquish her authority on August 28,2005 in writing to help the state cope with the hurricane.When it was rebuff, Louisiana was then on it's own.
If thats how the system is setup its hard to blame the Feds. Sounds like the system itself needs to be changed. Most countries its not setup like that which is why its soooo hard for all us outsiders to understand the mess.
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
mojo2
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 11:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by asmack
You didn't answer my question. Are the feds 100% blameless?
I wasn't ready to find ANY blame until you brought it up. The facts aren't all in. But in light of your gaining momentum with your bogus charges that would be hard to negate or refute or reverse the longer it went on I did a quick sub-total to see where things stood and ascertained that the locals bear the majority of the blame few else here but YOU are rushing to assign.

You guys must have radios in Canada. You may have heard of a singer named kenny Rogers. He sang a song, The Gambler. One of the lines of the song goes...

You got to know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
You never count your money when you’re sittin’ at the table.
There’ll be time enough for countin’ when the dealin’s done.
When the victims have been cared for and the dead have been secured don't you think there will be time enough to start the blame game?

Someone here in this thread was 100% correct in lamenting the instant, shake & bake attention spans where everything has to be done all at once.

Slow down. Breathe. Think.

Trap beavers.

Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
mojo2
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 11:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens
Being on a roof top isnt a position of drowning, thats a position of being stranded. And the Coast Guard should be used for rescuing people, they are trained and equipped for that. The military should have been there in 2 days to drop soldiers into the areas needing policing, and no later then 3 days food and water drops. There is no reason why food and water was not dropped at the 2 places that had thousands of people waiting for something.
No reason other than the reasons YOU don't know because YOU weren't there and YOU have never faced a situation like this because NO ONE has ever had to face a situation like this and because YOU won't bother to wait for the facts to come out.

Yeah. No reason at all.
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
Stegabot
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago,IL, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 11:18 PM
 
The Coast Guard and other military services did do the rescuing part on stranded civilian.If terms of military personnel,the regular army,marine,navy and airforce are prohibited by law to engage in law enforcement activities in the US,but the LaNG can do exactly that because they are under the authority of the Governor of Louisiana.When the US government federalized those national guard units,then it's a different story.
Have you ever consider how foolish it is to drop a food pallet from a plane or even helicopter to thousands of people in the Superdome.Not only will they had the opportunity to be crushed by their meals,they also had a big opportunity to die by being trampled by their fellow refugees rushing to get to those food and water pallets.
Trust me,you will not want to go that route.
Computers are tools that we use and are the extension of our brains,not the other way around.
     
mojo2
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 4, 2005, 11:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens
and that is the problem, the feds waited to long, and New Orleans is not the only place bitching about the help. Nagin had nothing to do with all the other towns and States hurt by this. In such a disaster the Feds which ever country it is should take over because its obvious its beyond the scope of local authorities.
Do you EVER stop and think before shooting off your posts?
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:27 PM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,