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cenutrio · Jul 8, 2009, 05:35 AM

Hi guys,
A friend just asked me about computer configurations for a small business she is building. However I´ve been living abroad for 4 years now and I do not really know who is providing good prices, good customer service, etc, anymore, besides the usual suspects, DELL or HP for instance.

I do not think Macs are an option. Anybody having similar problem recently and satisfied with the outcome? any recommendations?

We are talking about setting up 5 PCs, a network, and a back up system.

Thanks,

Doofy · Jul 8, 2009, 06:15 AM

Build yer own from bits. That way, your technical expertise when it all goes belly up is right there, in house.

And quite frankly, if she can't do a stupidly simple task like build a PC and plug in a few network cables then her business is going to go tits up within five years anyways.

cenutrio · Jul 8, 2009, 06:19 AM

Great positive feed back Doofy....

I´m in Spain, she is in Chicago, and she doesn´t need to know **** about PCs, she can hire pros to do that, the question is who would you recommend?

Doofy · Jul 8, 2009, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by cenutrio

Great positive feed back Doofy....

I´m in Spain, she is in Chicago, and she doesn´t need to know **** about PCs, she can hire pros to do that, the question is who would you recommend?

I just told you what I recommend - that she builds her own. Like I said, if she can't sit down and build a PC from scratch herself and instead relies on hiring pros then IMO she simply hasn't got the lobes to succeed in business. It's not like building your own is difficult, is it?

All too often these days business people try to specialise in certain areas whilst avoiding others ("oh, I'm not an IT type person so I'll hire someone to plug the network cables in") and IMO it's the wrong way to go about it. The time-honoured tradition of the boss spending time in each area so that they know every nut and bolt of their business is still the best way to do things so as to ensure a solid, lasting company - most business failures happen because the boss didn't do this.

That's why the first thing I do in a fresh studio is rewire the thing. I don't necessarily upgrade, replace or modify anything but I rip it apart and put it back together again so I know where every cable goes and know exactly what every button does. Even though it's not my job.

This is generally the difference between people who succeed in business and people who don't - the ones who succeed roll their sleeves up instead of hiring someone else. Hence the advice.

Phileas · Jul 8, 2009, 07:04 AM

Not so much, in my opinion. The people who succeed in business are the people who know what, where and when to delegate, not the people who micro-manage.

My time is far better spent making my clients happy, and billing them for it, than building my own PC. I pay experts to do that for me, in a fraction of the time it would take me, with superior results. I have no need to know why my laptop works, for as long as it works. If it breaks down I get it fixed, again by an expert. If it needs replacing, I replace it.

This allows me to concentrate on what I am good at and where I make my money, and that's not building PCs.

Doofy · Jul 8, 2009, 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by Phileas

Not so much, in my opinion. The people who succeed in business are the people who know what, where and when to delegate, not the people who micro-manage.

How do you know which "expert" to hire if you haven't got a clue about the task which you're hiring them for? Isn't that just begging for the "your carburettor is ill too, Miss" treatment?

mattyb · Jul 8, 2009, 07:47 AM

She should ask somebody in Chicago who they would recommend locally. IMHO, its best (for a small business anyway) to have someone nearby who can be physically present if the stuff hits the fan. At least initially. The risk is that the someone goes out of business of course.

She could of course try this.

ghporter · Jul 8, 2009, 08:24 AM

I'm certain that there are a number of "local brands" in the Chicago area. Here in San Antonio there are two that I'd trust to build reliable machines to my requirements. What they'd build would be affordable and robust, too. But who would support them? Hauling a suspect machine in to one of their shops is a PITA, especially if you lack a person on site that can say "it's definitely this machine, and not the monitor, the router, or anything else."

THAT's why I'd go with one of the "usual suspects," or at least look into what they offer. Right now HP is looking "less than trustworthy" in terms of reliability and support, at least in my experience. Dell is trying VERY hard to reclaim the top seat, but I don't know what sorts of support agreements they have for small businesses. I think this is a situation where the small business owner should "shop out the requirements" and see what sorts of offers she gets, both from the local guys (INCLUDING SUPPORT) and the big guys.

cenutrio · Jul 8, 2009, 08:42 AM

Ok Doofy, I see your point, indeed that´s my approach to pretty much everything in life. I do all I can myself.

However, this is you and I choosing a quite hard path because in most cases we have to learn new things, some really complicated, and this is a never ending history, but still it is surely fun. She does not want to do that, she is an ex-manager in a top 500 Fortune company and she wants to start again from scratch. Setting up a network and computers is the last of her priorities right now, so the question is, who Dell, HP/Compaq, IBM, eMachine, Fujitsu, Sony, etc, would you choose if you were in her shoes?

Quality/Costumers service/guarantee/price being from top top bottom in importance.

Thanks a lot.

shifuimam · Jul 8, 2009, 08:58 AM

I agree with Glenn - go with one of the big guys. That way, she can get warranty service and tech support very easily. I personally prefer Dell hardware to HP or Lenovo, and their small business tech support is good. Upgrade her to a three or four-year warranty with onsite NBD support, and you'll be set.

Doofy · Jul 8, 2009, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by cenutrio

so the question is, who Dell, HP/Compaq, IBM, eMachine, Fujitsu, Sony, etc, would you choose if you were in her shoes?

It really, really depends on what she wants to do with those computers. What's her business and what does she want the computers to do? In most circumstances, five iMacs will do the job quite nicely (hey, we are at the NN, after all!). Why does she need Windoze?

OreoCookie · Jul 8, 2009, 09:28 AM

She could also put Windows on Mac hardware …

shifuimam · Jul 8, 2009, 09:45 AM

Why spend the money on Mac hardware if she's going to run Windows?

If she wants to run Windows in her office environment, that's her prerogative - spending the extra cash on machines that have a worse warranty and service plan than what Dell or HP offers isn't exactly good business sense.

OreoCookie · Jul 8, 2009, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by shifuimam

Why spend the money on Mac hardware if she's going to run Windows?

If she wants to run Windows in her office environment, that's her prerogative - spending the extra cash on machines that have a worse warranty and service plan than what Dell or HP offers isn't exactly good business sense.

My university has a few main suppliers and we get the same tech people, regardless of whether we have our secretaries Fujitsu Siemens PC serviced or our printer or our MacBook Pros. They also offer their own extended warranty, for instance. On that level, the hardware cost is about the same.

Doofy · Jul 8, 2009, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by shifuimam

If she wants to run Windows in her office environment, that's her prerogative

We haven't ascertained that fact yet. We have her friend, the OP, stating that he doesn't think Macs are an option.

Originally Posted by shifuimam

spending the extra cash on machines that have a worse warranty and service plan than what Dell or HP offers isn't exactly good business sense.

How exactly is AppleCare worse than anything which Dell or HP offer?

Laminar · Jul 8, 2009, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

How exactly is AppleCare worse than anything which Dell or HP offer?

Dell offers warranties that last longer than AppleCare, and if you go high enough, they'll come to you and fix it - no sending it out for Apple to lose track of, mess up, or delete your data.

OreoCookie · Jul 8, 2009, 10:02 AM

HP, for instance, offers different types of insurances with their extended warranties (very nifty), including one that covers accidents (I've spilled my coffee over my notebook!). However, if you have an office, it's better to have a local vendor you trust.

shifuimam · Jul 8, 2009, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

How exactly is AppleCare worse than anything which Dell or HP offer?

Let's see...

Dell and HP machines come with lifetime, toll-free phone support. Macs don't.

Both offer accidental damage coverage for a fairly low fee (usually about $200 extra on the standard warranty). Apple doesn't.

Both offer next-business-day, onsite, free repair service through local contracted outlets. Apple doesn't.

When you're running a business, you don't want or need to have to deal with either shipping a machine out or dragging it to an Apple store or local Apple Certified Repair outlet just to get something fixed or replaced. Onsite repair service is critical in a business environment. Larger businesses can get their own employees certified to repair Apple hardware - at the university where I work, our department's IT guy has a couple people on his team who do Apple repair work. A small business, however, can't really do that.

I realize that this is blasphemy, but Apple's warranty and support coverage is total balls compared to what's offered by every other major computer manufacturer out there. I cannot fathom spending $2k on a laptop that doesn't even come with the option of accidental damage coverage.

Doofy · Jul 8, 2009, 10:18 AM

Right, your AppleCare must be different over there in TLOTF™ - mine's on-site*.

Oh, and my MBP is covered under building contents insurance, as is the usual method.

(* I'm having an italicy kind of day.)

Doofy · Jul 8, 2009, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by shifuimam

When you're running a business, you don't want or need to have to deal with either shipping a machine out or dragging it to an Apple store or local Apple Certified Repair outlet just to get something fixed or replaced. Onsite repair service is critical in a business environment.

No.

OreoCookie · Jul 8, 2009, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by shifuimam

When you're running a business, you don't want or need to have to deal with either shipping a machine out or dragging it to an Apple store or local Apple Certified Repair outlet just to get something fixed or replaced.

That's why many businesses don't buy from manufacturers directly, but via a specialized reseller that doesn't just offer one brand.

shifuimam · Jul 8, 2009, 10:30 AM

So you have to have an external insurance plan, and then deal with your insurance company to file a claim and figure out how to get it repaired, and then have to worry about the possibility of it raising your premiums?

Accidental damage coverage that comes with a machine is simply much, much easier. You call an 800 number, tell them that you spilled coke on your keyboard and your laptop won't turn on anymore, and they'll have someone out there in 48 hours with a replacement motherboard and, for the hell of it, a replacement keyboard and some casing bits as well. No questions asked.

Personally, I'll stick with the accidental damage coverage.

Also: in the US, onsite service, according to Apple's own AppleCare TOS, "is available for many desktop computers if the location of the Covered Equipment is within 50 miles/80 kilometers radius of an Apple authorized onsite service provider located in the United States or Canada". Which means you're not guaranteed onsite service as an option. Personally, I'll stick with a warranty I can trust.

shifuimam · Jul 8, 2009, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

No.

So you'd rather lose a day of work while your computer is off being repaired?

I swear to God, Doofy, it's gotten to the point where you're just trolling me for the sake of trolling. Go find something shiny to play with.

angelmb · Jul 8, 2009, 10:37 AM

I am not a PC expert by any means, and don't aim to pose as one but I thought when it comes to PCs Lenovo was kicking everyone's *** these days.

Doofy · Jul 8, 2009, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by shifuimam

So you have to have an external insurance plan, and then deal with your insurance company to file a claim and figure out how to get it repaired, and then have to worry about the possibility of it raising your premiums?

Well, since the premium is only £70 a year anyway... That's everything in the building.

Originally Posted by shifuimam

Accidental damage coverage that comes with a machine is simply much, much easier. You call an 800 number, tell them that you spilled coke on your keyboard and your laptop won't turn on anymore, and they'll have someone out there in 48 hours with a replacement motherboard and, for the hell of it, a replacement keyboard and some casing bits as well. No questions asked.

Yeah, that's what my insurance company is like.

Originally Posted by shifuimam

Also: in the US, onsite service, according to Apple's own AppleCare TOS, "is available for many desktop computers if the location of the Covered Equipment is within 50 miles/80 kilometers radius of an Apple authorized onsite service provider located in the United States or Canada". Which means you're not guaranteed onsite service as an option.

Unless you're in, say, Chicago... ...where there'll be a number of onsite techs available.

Originally Posted by shifuimam

Personally, I'll stick with a warranty I can trust.

You do realise that everything you've just said about warranty cover could only have been said by a state employee who doesn't live off their own business, yes? In the real world, quick-repair warranty doesn't matter over much because if you've got any sense and your computers are critical you use a hot-spare machine anyways.

Doofy · Jul 8, 2009, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by shifuimam

So you'd rather lose a day of work while your computer is off being repaired?

Ummm. It'd take me about five minutes to have the hot spare up and running.

Originally Posted by shifuimam

I swear to God, Doofy, it's gotten to the point where you're just trolling me for the sake of trolling. Go find something shiny to play with.

I'm sorry hun but you've just tried to tell me how small business works. You, a state-employed university administrator, telling me, a small business owner, how things work in small business.

Stop being a tard about such things and I'll stop disagreeing with you about such things.

Oh, and here's a clue: You're on a Mac forum. People are going to attempt to get the guy to recommend Macs if it's within the realms of possibility for whatever this chick's business is. That's what we do around here. Live with it.

jokell82 · Jul 8, 2009, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Build yer own from bits. That way, your technical expertise when it all goes belly up is right there, in house.

And quite frankly, if she can't do a stupidly simple task like build a PC and plug in a few network cables then her business is going to go tits up within five years anyways.

Ignore this advice, because it's a load of crap.

The small business I have (~65 employees) uses Dell machines. We go through an account rep at Dell who gets us better pricing than the website, and we get Pro Support on all of our machines (on-site next business day support, speak to an american tech support on the phone in under 30 seconds). Other than normal Windows problems, we've had no issues buying from and working with Dell. I'd recommend calling and getting set up with an account rep.

indigoimac · Jul 8, 2009, 11:04 AM

Need a pc? Pick one that fits the budget -- this is really not as hard as everyone seems to be making it out to be. Both Dell and HP are fine and have decent enough warranties -- at least for a year -- which is as good as you are going to get from individual component manufacturers if you build it yourself. And is as good as you are going to get out of apple. With only 5 machines no manufacturer is going to be particularly helpful w. advance part replacement or letting you stock parts, etc. -- which would be overkill anyway in most cases.

The manner in one manages their computers, especially in a business where they are operating as point of sale machines or similar, really does not relate to the way they run their business. That said, computer maintenance for a small business can easily become a money pit, especially when there is not someone onsite, or super cheap, that can take care of stupid crap, like a network switch crapping out, or a router needing to be power cycled.

Doofy · Jul 8, 2009, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Ignore this advice, because it's a load of crap.

The small business I have (~65 employees) uses Dell machines. We go through an account rep at Dell who gets us better pricing than the website, and we get Pro Support on all of our machines (on-site next business day support, speak to an american tech support on the phone in under 30 seconds). Other than normal Windows problems, we've had no issues buying from and working with Dell. I'd recommend calling and getting set up with an account rep.

And you'd get the same support/discount for the same money if you had 60 employees less?

turtle777 · Jul 8, 2009, 11:49 AM

I'd say just do the opposite of what Doofy said in this thread, and she should be fine.

-t

shifuimam · Jul 8, 2009, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

You do realise that everything you've just said about warranty cover could only have been said by a state employee who doesn't live off their own business, yes? In the real world, quick-repair warranty doesn't matter over much because if you've got any sense and your computers are critical you use a hot-spare machine anyways.

Wait, what? What about when I had a laptop that I paid for with my own cash and was able to use its warranty to fix busted components (like when someone accidentally kicked it off my coffee table and broke the power connector)? Sure, I could have found the part on eBay, ordered it, waited for it to arrive, and voided the warranty to install it myself...or I could call someone and have someone in my dorm room the next day to replace it for free.

How about if, as a business paying for all your own stuff, you're on a business trip and something happens? Let's see...either you can find an Apple Store in an unfamiliar location and hope they can fix your problem immediately, or you can call up your handy support with Dell or HP or Lenovo and get it fixed without having to worry that you might have to be without it for a week or two.

Or, what if, as a business, the business owner (provided that they do exactly what you command and have learned the ins and outs of PC repair) is unavailable to do the repair? What, you're supposed to just wait until she comes back from vacation to fix your nonfunctioning machine?

Of course, The World According To Doofy is apparently the only way to do anything, right? I mean, a person starting a business is a loser if they don't build their own machines. God, I'm so ignorant. Thanks for showing me the light.

Originally Posted by turtle777

I'd say just do the opposite of what Doofy said in this thread, and she should be fine.

-t

Lulz.

residentEvil · Jul 8, 2009, 12:02 PM

Stick with HP or Dell for small businesses from a reseller, like CDW. 2 or 200 machines, you are usually treated the same. CDW will build any special configs, test and install what you need as well...all included in the price.

You will then get an account rep to deal with who will take care of exchanges, returns, etc and make sure you stay on top of your manufacture warranties. CDW will take care of the leg work.

(i do not work for CDW, but have dealt with them, OfficeMax and similar. also some local smaller resellers who do the same for me. just depended on the order size who i would contact.)

Doofy · Jul 8, 2009, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by shifuimam

Of course, The World According To Doofy is apparently the only way to do anything, right?

Nope, it's not the only way. Just the best way.

I'm done here. In future I'll know better than to offer small business advice to anyone when there's a university administrator handy who can perform that task much better than I.

Laminar · Jul 8, 2009, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Nope, it's not the only way. Just the best way.

The sad part is I think you actually believe this.

Doofy · Jul 8, 2009, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Laminar

The sad part is I think you actually believe this.

No, the sad part is that I keep forgetting that people don't actually want any real help - they just want a validation that whatever they've been brainwashed with this week isn't a dollar more expensive than what they were brainwashed with last week. But, the "help folks out" part of my nature kicks in and there ya go.

It's like those recent threads about relatives who demand help with their new Windows machines after you've suggested they buy a Mac. You try and help but they take no notice and go with the standard "default" way of doing things, partly because they've been brainwashed by advertising and partly because their university administrator has been giving them advice. Those of us in the know simply know (and

at the prospect of it all), while those not in the know are content to wallow in their ignorance and are destined for much pain.

So, screw it, I'll keep my gob shut until someone pays me to open it.

turtle777 · Jul 8, 2009, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

So, screw it, I'll keep my gob shut until someone pays me to open it.

But will you keep your hands "shut", too ?

-t

jokell82 · Jul 8, 2009, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

And you'd get the same support/discount for the same money if you had 60 employees less?

Yes, because you pay for it (the Pro Support, anyway). Whether or not he'll be able to get the same level of discounts is another story.

Bottom line, though, is doing your own IT stuff as a small business owner is stupid, because it takes your focus away from what you should be doing. Let someone else handle it for you so you can concentrate on making money.

besson3c · Jul 8, 2009, 03:29 PM

I actually agree with Doofy on the build your own advice. Every business owner should know a little bit about everything in their business. A monkey can build a PC and have a hot spare, I don't see the point in adding an extra dependency.

Laminar · Jul 8, 2009, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

I actually agree with Doofy on the build your own advice. Every business owner should know a little bit about everything in their business. A monkey can build a PC and have a hot spare, I don't see the point in adding an extra dependency.

Have you forgotten? You work at a university, so your opinion on this matter is worthless and wrong.

turtle777 · Jul 8, 2009, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

I actually agree with Doofy on the build your own advice.

That's totally shocking.

You would probably also recommend to that computer-illiterate friend that they should learn some *nix, and install Linux on the machine.

For good measure, every business owner should also be capable of programming their own ERP system, do all their taxes themselves, repair their own fleet vehicles, etc...

Are you guys nuts ?

-t

jokell82 · Jul 8, 2009, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

That's totally shocking.

You would probably also recommend to that computer-illiterate friend that they should learn some *nix, and install Linux on the machine.

For good measure, every business owner should also be capable of programming their own ERP system, do all their taxes themselves, repair their own fleet vehicles, etc...

Are you guys nuts ?

-t

Well said. I think you guys must have no idea what it takes to actually run a business.

Chuckit · Jul 8, 2009, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

The small business I have (~65 employees) uses Dell machines.

65 is an order of magnitude larger than five.

besson3c · Jul 8, 2009, 03:58 PM

Owning a business that small is not for wimps who are afraid to learn new things and go outside of their areas of comfort. They need to at least investigate these angles themselves before creating a dependency and the potential for manipulation.

besson3c · Jul 8, 2009, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Laminar

Have you forgotten? You work at a university, so your opinion on this matter is worthless and wrong.

I don't anymore, so my opinion is now officially superior!

Like we needed this revelation to be able to say this

jokell82 · Jul 8, 2009, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Owning a business that small is not for wimps who are afraid to learn new things and go outside of their areas of comfort. They need to at least investigate these angles themselves before creating a dependency and the potential for manipulation.

Owning a business that small requires focus to make it work. Having to take time to set up 6 computers yourself and be the tech support when something goes down moves your focus from what it should be. That is the exact opposite of what a small business owner should be doing.

turtle777 · Jul 8, 2009, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Owning a business that small is not for wimps who are afraid to learn new things and go outside of their areas of comfort. They need to at least investigate these angles themselves before creating a dependency and the potential for manipulation.

Successful business owners are very good at one thing, and delegate / outsource everything else.

Actually, it's really the key to success: focus on things you do best / better than anybody else.
And let those, that are better than you (in any field) work for you.

-t

besson3c · Jul 8, 2009, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

That's totally shocking.

You would probably also recommend to that computer-illiterate friend that they should learn some *nix, and install Linux on the machine.

For good measure, every business owner should also be capable of programming their own ERP system, do all their taxes themselves, repair their own fleet vehicles, etc...

Are you guys nuts ?

-t

If you owned a fleet of vehicles, it would probably make sense to learn how to change your own oil, keep track of the mileage and the work that has been done, perhaps have some spare tires and other parts that need frequent replacing, etc. This is not too dissimilar... I'm suggesting something in between being a hot shot mechanic and being completely ignorant of your investment and solely dependent on somebody else to protect it.

Don't go off the deep end, turtle, building a PC is basic enough of a task that it is *not* out of the question here.

Dakar V · Jul 8, 2009, 04:04 PM

Your suggestion would be more akin to building your own vehicles for the fleet.

besson3c · Jul 8, 2009, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

Successful business owners are very good at one thing, and delegate / outsource everything else.

Actually, it's really the key to success: focus on things you do best / better than anybody else.
And let those, that are better than you (in any field) work for you.

-t

Up to a point. This is good advice because of the results... I wouldn't do calculus myself because that's not low dangling fruit for me, so I would hire somebody that knows it inside out and backwards. This is low dangling fruit, it's within the realm of practicality. It just comes down to a cost/benefit ratio analysis.

turtle777 · Jul 8, 2009, 04:07 PM

No, a business might own a fleet of vehicles, but might really be in the business of providing a mobility-based service.

Why would a caterer do their own fleet maintenance / repairs ? It doesn't make any sense.
If he's really good at it, he should be in the maintenance / repairs business. If he's not good at it, shouldn't he hire someone who can do it BETTER than him, giving him the best-serviced fleet so he can actually do his catering business ?

It's clear to me from many comments that many people here have no clue what running a business is like.
You, besson, are a most likely an employe in a staff / specialist position, and hence, for you, *everyone* should be doing what you do themselves, since you are so limited in your thinking that you can not fathom that someone might not be interested or skilled enough to be as good as you in your field.

It really is a sign of ignorance.

-t