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Millennium · Jul 18, 2002, 03:27 PM

I agree with you guys that something has to be done about the .mac pricing.

Something is in the works. I can't give more details just yet.

So please, hold off on the petitions and protest letters, for just a couple of days. Don't go to the news media (like what happened the whole NFN issue) or anything else just yet.

Please trust me. I am as livid as any of you are over this. But the wait will be worth it.

gorickey · Jul 18, 2002, 03:29 PM

Hmmm, what do you mean exactly? Are you saying that those that want just @mac.com e-mail are going to be very happy? Or, are you saying that those who get the full .Mac subscription service will be very happy they paid $100/yr. for it?

Give us a hint!

mitchell_pgh · Jul 18, 2002, 03:32 PM

I'm thinking free email, but all of the server space GONE... That's the only reason I use my iDisk...

ratlater · Jul 18, 2002, 03:34 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I'm thinking free email, but all of the server space GONE... That's the only reason I use my iDisk...<hr /></blockquote>If you need more than 5MB of server space for e-mail than you should pay for a service.

-matt

gorickey · Jul 18, 2002, 03:37 PM

No kidding, I would take/need only 2 MB and be happy....

Brazuca · Jul 18, 2002, 03:41 PM

I agree that only the email and around 5MB should be free. I am as livid and disappointed as the next guy, but Apple is a business. I just don't want to be strong-armed and feel cheated. By M$ maybe, but not Apple.

If Apple fixes this, I may even buy a full .Mac account. But I don't want to feel like I'm being blackmailed into it.

I'll hold off, wait til Apple responds.

[ 07-18-2002, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: Brazuca ]

RH · Jul 18, 2002, 03:47 PM

This is from the .mac help:

Converting your .Mac trial account to an email-only account

IMPORTANT: If you choose to convert your trial account to an email-only account, all your data files on Apple's servers (except for email messages) will be removed. Other .Mac services, such as iDisk, HomePage, Backup, and Virex, are not accessible to email-only accounts.

To convert your trial account to email-only, go to <a href="http://www.mac.com." target="_blank">www.mac.com.</a> Click Account in the .Mac menu bar, then click the Email Account Management button. Enter the member name and password of the trial account you'd like to convert, then click Convert.

Print your account information for future reference, then click Continue.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This looks promising, but I dont have the email account management button shown; I hope that someone else has better luck. Or maybe, .mac website has not been fully updated yet?

RH

kman42 · Jul 18, 2002, 03:47 PM

I'm thinking some combo deal:

1) You buy a mac you get 1 year free.
2) You buy Jag you get 1 year free.
3) You pay for .Mac you get OS updates whenever they come out for free.

Something like that.

::maroma:: · Jul 18, 2002, 03:52 PM

Well, well, well. Looks like being patient and acting rationally is again what people should have done. Tsk-tsk!

Nonsuch · Jul 18, 2002, 03:55 PM

I think you guys are misunderstanding. I don't think Millenium has inside scoop on a change to .Mac's pricing schedule. It sounds more to me like he (and perhaps some other MacNN higher-ups) are planning a highly visible and forceful protest action. Press release? Interviews with major tech media outlets? Human chain around 1 Infinite Loop? I wonder ...

asxless · Jul 18, 2002, 03:57 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by RH:
This is from the .mac help:

Converting your .Mac trial account to an email-only account

IMPORTANT: If you choose to convert your trial account to an email-only account, all your data files on Apple's servers (except for email messages) will be removed. Other .Mac services, such as iDisk, HomePage, Backup, and Virex, are not accessible to email-only accounts.

To convert your trial account to email-only, go to <a href="http://www.mac.com." target="_blank">www.mac.com.</a> Click Account in the .Mac menu bar, then click the Email Account Management button. Enter the member name and password of the trial account you'd like to convert, then click Convert.

Print your account information for future reference, then click Continue.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This looks promising, but I dont have the email account management button shown; I hope that someone else has better luck. Or maybe, .mac website has not been fully updated yet?

RH<hr /></blockquote>This has been posted several times yesterday. Look at the context of this help message which is how a 'full memeber' can add Email-only accounts for $10/email-only account. BTW the "Email Account Management button" does not display unless you have already paid for a 'full membership'.

asxless in iLand

Brazuca · Jul 18, 2002, 03:59 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nonsuch:
I think you guys are misunderstanding. I don't think Millenium has inside scoop on a change to .Mac's pricing schedule. It sounds more to me like he (and perhaps some other MacNN higher-ups) are planning a highly visible and forceful protest action. Press release? Interviews with major tech media outlets? Human chain around 1 Infinite Loop? I wonder ...<hr /></blockquote>Last I heard they were planning to hurl themselves at the windows of Apple's HQ and hope that the *SPLAT* noise would make a large enough statement.

Seriously, I think that perhaps Apple is seeing the backlash and wants to make a concession to appease the users. That would go a long way to calm people down.

dwishbone · Jul 18, 2002, 04:00 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ::maroma:::
Well, well, well. Looks like being patient and acting rationally is again what people should have done. Tsk-tsk!

<hr /></blockquote>where's the fun in that :-)

ratlater · Jul 18, 2002, 04:00 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nonsuch:
Human chain around 1 Infinite Loop? I wonder ...<hr /></blockquote>ROFL...human chain...I almost spit coke on my iBook!

-matt

Hash · Jul 18, 2002, 04:02 PM

The probable answer to MIllenium's mystery is here

<a href="http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=46;t=007654" target="_blank">Read for damn clues</a>

[ 07-18-2002, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Hash ]

dancrane2 · Jul 18, 2002, 04:13 PM

I wrote a letter yesterday to the mac.com feedback. Basically I told them they screwed up and they should leave the existing mac.com with 5-mb accounts and 20-mb iDisk, then charge for all of the extra services above and beyond.

We'll see. I hope they change their mind, it's best for alll parties concerned.

dwishbone · Jul 18, 2002, 04:19 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dancrane2:
I wrote a letter yesterday to the mac.com feedback. Basically I told them they screwed up and they should leave the existing mac.com with 5-mb accounts and 20-mb iDisk, then charge for all of the extra services above and beyond.

We'll see. I hope they change their mind, it's best for alll parties concerned.<hr /></blockquote>good idea

KidRed · Jul 18, 2002, 04:22 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hash:
The probable answer to MIllenium's mystery is here

<a href="http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=46;t=007654" target="_blank">Read for damn clues</a><hr /></blockquote>mm, I read but found no damn clues

MasonMcD · Jul 18, 2002, 04:25 PM

Are we talking about a new online tool?

gorickey · Jul 18, 2002, 04:28 PM

Yeah, that thread told me squat...

Anyway, when can we "learn more" Millenium?

Target Practice · Jul 18, 2002, 04:28 PM

The clue...
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hash:

BTW: there is rumor of upcoming campaign

1. if you are .mac member (registered i guess), then you can upgrade to 10.2 Jaguar for 19$. Which gives roughly same price as education one : 49$+ 19$, Thats could be good idea. But so far - iNo. <hr /></blockquote>

Nonsuch · Jul 18, 2002, 04:29 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KidRed:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hash:
The probable answer to MIllenium's mystery is here

<a href="http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=46;t=007654" target="_blank">Read for damn clues</a><hr /></blockquote>mm, I read but found no damn clues

<hr /></blockquote>A rumor that people upgrading their iTools accounts to .Mac will be able to buy Jaguar for $19. Not a bad deal ... better than the edu discount even. We'll see.

gorickey · Jul 18, 2002, 04:29 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Target Practice:
The clue...
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hash:

BTW: there is rumor of upcoming campaign

1. if you are .mac member (registered i guess), then you can upgrade to 10.2 Jaguar for 19$. Which gives roughly same price as education one : 49$+ 19$, Thats could be good idea. But so far - iNo. <hr /></blockquote><hr /></blockquote>Bah.

oliverlubin · Jul 18, 2002, 04:33 PM

check these pages out. free email-only accounts? but when?

<a href="http://help.apple.com/mac/5/help/mail/pgs/mac40.htm" target="_blank">http://help.apple.com/mac/5/help/mail/pgs/mac40.htm</a>
<a href="http://help.apple.com/mac/5/help/mail/pgs/mac41.htm" target="_blank">http://help.apple.com/mac/5/help/mail/pgs/mac41.htm</a>
<a href="http://help.apple.com/mac/5/help/mail/pgs/mac42.htm" target="_blank">http://help.apple.com/mac/5/help/mail/pgs/mac42.htm</a>
<a href="http://help.apple.com/mac/5/help/mail/pgs/mac43.htm" target="_blank">http://help.apple.com/mac/5/help/mail/pgs/mac43.htm</a>

JLL · Jul 18, 2002, 04:41 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by oliverlubin:
check these pages out. free email-only accounts? but when?

<a href="http://help.apple.com/mac/5/help/mail/pgs/mac40.htm" target="_blank">http://help.apple.com/mac/5/help/mail/pgs/mac40.htm</a>
<a href="http://help.apple.com/mac/5/help/mail/pgs/mac41.htm" target="_blank">http://help.apple.com/mac/5/help/mail/pgs/mac41.htm</a>
<a href="http://help.apple.com/mac/5/help/mail/pgs/mac42.htm" target="_blank">http://help.apple.com/mac/5/help/mail/pgs/mac42.htm</a>
<a href="http://help.apple.com/mac/5/help/mail/pgs/mac43.htm" target="_blank">http://help.apple.com/mac/5/help/mail/pgs/mac43.htm</a><hr /></blockquote>Not this again

Brazuca · Jul 18, 2002, 05:04 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gorickey:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Target Practice:
The clue...
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hash:

BTW: there is rumor of upcoming campaign

1. if you are .mac member (registered i guess), then you can upgrade to 10.2 Jaguar for 19$. Which gives roughly same price as education one : 49$+ 19$, Thats could be good idea. But so far - iNo. <hr /></blockquote><hr /></blockquote>Bah.<hr /></blockquote>Double bah!!

zazou · Jul 18, 2002, 05:10 PM

Let's all remember.. regardless of what Apple does.....they don't have to do anything!

I see a lot of "Apple should" and 'They need to' phrasing here.

We are not little children, we are consumers, and Apple is beholden to give us NOTHING for free

AU_student_iceBook · Jul 18, 2002, 05:11 PM

Triple BAH!
I already pre-ordered Jaguar from the education store...and I'm thinking about .mac.
I guess as long as they let me cancel my pre-order I might like that idea. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

OAW · Jul 18, 2002, 05:18 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nonsuch:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KidRed:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hash:
The probable answer to MIllenium's mystery is here

<a href="http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=46;t=007654" target="_blank">Read for damn clues</a><hr /></blockquote>mm, I read but found no damn clues

<hr /></blockquote>A rumor that people upgrading their iTools accounts to .Mac will be able to buy Jaguar for $19. Not a bad deal ... better than the edu discount even. We'll see.<hr /></blockquote>IF this is true, it would be "better". However, I still wouldn't "like" it because there should be a discounted price anyway for those users who already purchased OS X. Having said that, I would probably go for it grudgingly because it would allow me to get my hands on Jaguar and keep my @mac.com email for a year.

But, like many if not most iTools users, I only use it for the email. And there is no way in hell I would pay for the second year of .Mac when all I'm going to use is the email account.

Why Apple doesn't simply offer an @mac.com email only version of .Mac for $10-20 bucks a year is beyond me! If they did, all the howling and protesting would evaporate and they would still make a few extra bucks out of it.

OAW

Millennium · Jul 18, 2002, 05:19 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gorickey:
Yeah, that thread told me squat...

Anyway, when can we "learn more" Millenium?<hr /></blockquote>When it is ready. That should be within the next two to three days.

CharlesS · Jul 18, 2002, 06:09 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Target Practice:
The clue...
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hash:

BTW: there is rumor of upcoming campaign

1. if you are .mac member (registered i guess), then you can upgrade to 10.2 Jaguar for 19$. Which gives roughly same price as education one : 49$+ 19$, Thats could be good idea. But so far - iNo. <hr /></blockquote><hr /></blockquote>If that's true, I will *immediately* stop complaining, and probably purchase it. Hell, it's still free in that case, all things considered, except that they can pretty much guarantee that users will upgrade (you're paying for the upgrades anyway, so why not pick up the upgrade?) Pretty clever, if it's true.

asxless · Jul 18, 2002, 06:39 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by zazou:
Let's all remember.. regardless of what Apple does.....they don't have to do anything!

I see a lot of "Apple should" and 'They need to' phrasing here.

We are not little children, we are consumers, and Apple is beholden to give us NOTHING for free<hr /></blockquote>WOW, what insight! No one in this forum would have ever thought of that without your help.

Off course, it works both ways. As Apple _customers_, we are not beholden to spend another penny on Apple products or services. But then, that would not be very good for Apple or us.

BTW you sure have an appropriate sig

"'I have given up trying to figure people out in favor of mocking them...'"

IUJHJSDHE · Jul 18, 2002, 06:43 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Millennium:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gorickey:
Yeah, that thread told me squat...

Anyway, when can we "learn more" Millenium?<hr /></blockquote>When it is ready. That should be within the next two to three days.<hr /></blockquote>What are you basing this on?

Anomalous · Jul 18, 2002, 07:06 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Millennium:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gorickey:
Yeah, that thread told me squat...

Anyway, when can we "learn more" Millenium?<hr /></blockquote>When it is ready. That should be within the next two to three days.<hr /></blockquote>How about giving us free @macnn.com addresses? Did I guess it?

mdcarter1 · Jul 18, 2002, 08:23 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by OAW:
Why Apple doesn't simply offer an @mac.com email only version of .Mac for $10-20 bucks a year is beyond me! If they did, all the howling and protesting would evaporate and they would still make a few extra bucks out of it.

OAW[/qb]<hr /></blockquote>Please, as if people around here are going to stop protesting. They'll just move on to complaining about the price of Jaguar or no DDR or whatever.

[ 07-18-2002, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: mdcarter1 ]

clod · Jul 18, 2002, 08:35 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Millennium:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gorickey:
Yeah, that thread told me squat...

Anyway, when can we "learn more" Millenium?<hr /></blockquote>When it is ready. That should be within the next two to three days.<hr /></blockquote>It better be because ill be out of the loop for a week (going on vacation). I have 4 days left.

[ 07-18-2002, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: clod ]

booboo · Jul 18, 2002, 09:16 PM

To unquestioningly accept that "Apple is a business, and therefore has to charge (for iTools)" is to take an extremely short-sighted view of what makes good business.

It's almost as short sighted and simplistic as saying: well they've got to cut costs, so they cut the advertising or R&D budget...

(Not that I'm a fan of advertising...;-))

Free iTools/mac.com email may have bought Apple more goodwill and more customers than it cost them.

Sure, charge people for extra storage/more email addresses, but 5MB of (bandwidth-limited) space/1 mac.com email address can't cost that much. And contrary to what Steve said, there ARE still plenty of free email services. I even have 25MB of totally free webspace from my totally free - and advertisement-free - ISP

Likewise, not offering a cheap upgrade path to 10.2 may lose Apple more money (and goodwill, and kudos) in the long run, than it saves them, especially when, at this crucial time, the OS X uptake is still fairly low.

10.2 could change everything, so come on Apple, don't penalise all of us who beta tested OS X thus far.

I look after a couple of small offices of iMac's. I didn't/don't consider 10.1 to be ready for them, and what they do. That was the OS their iMac's shipped with. Now, the prospect of having to buy a full new OS for each iMac is not going o go down well, in fact it won't happen. Which ultimately means that perhaps for another year or two these people will be still in OS 9. Shame, particularly when OS X should be as visible as possible at this time.

I can't think of one instance where, in times of economic 'recession', going for short term profit at the expense of market penetration has been the right thing to do.

PS: In 10 years I haven't felt less goodwill towards Apple than I do about this Jaguar "upgrade". No I'm not running to Windows, but if things do continue in this direction, I will have to consider Linux for certain situations. Maybe I feel a little stupid for having been so Apple-centric in the past...

The really annoying thing is, I seem to end up with a new Mac every year anyway, despite thinking I will never afford it, so the chances are I will end up with a bundled 10.2 at some point. I guess that charging $129 means I'll end up with 10.2 later, rather than sooner.

Who loses?

[ 07-18-2002, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: booboo ]

Anomalous · Jul 18, 2002, 10:15 PM

Okay, this doesn't necessarily mean anything, but...

It seems like a server called "mail.macnn.com" has been activated. Interesting...

(It doesn't accept connections, though, of course.)

gralem · Jul 18, 2002, 10:24 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ratlater:
If you need more than 5MB of server space for e-mail than you should pay for a service.

-matt<hr /></blockquote>Even F-ing M$ only charges $9 or $19/year for >2MB email space. It's the $99 that sucks. I will not pay it, even though my company will buy it for me. NO NO NO. I can spend $92/year to PowWeb to have LOTS more services that .mac offers. And they won't shut down my site after 3 people view it within any 24-hour period.

---gralem

Ron Goodman · Jul 18, 2002, 10:28 PM

I just signed up for .Mac(although I hate the name). I think iSynch is seriously impressive.

MacGorilla · Jul 18, 2002, 10:32 PM

I would love a @macnn.com address

clod · Jul 18, 2002, 10:35 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MacGorilla:
I would love a @macnn.com address

<hr /></blockquote>I would settle for a macnn.com address if I have to. Hopefully I could get my old mac.com username.

cmoney · Jul 18, 2002, 10:37 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ron Goodman:
I just signed up for .Mac(although I hate the name). I think iSynch is seriously impressive.<hr /></blockquote>iSync DOESN'T require .mac except when you want to use it to sync between multiple Macs. What I don't understand is why iSync can't sync Macs on local networks. Theoretically it should be possible. I got to use it today at MWNY. It shows a list of all BlueTooth devices and then you just choose what you want synced. It could easily use Rendezvous to discover other Macs in the local network (wired or Airport) and add it to the list of available devices.

There would still be a need for .Mac to sync multiple Macs on separate networks (like when syncing a Mac at work and one at home) but at least my local Macs could stay in sync.

cmoney · Jul 18, 2002, 11:34 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Millennium:
I agree with you guys that something has to be done about the .mac pricing.

Something is in the works. I can't give more details just yet.

So please, hold off on the petitions and protest letters, for just a couple of days. Don't go to the news media (like what happened the whole NFN issue) or anything else just yet.

Please trust me. I am as livid as any of you are over this. But the wait will be worth it.<hr /></blockquote>At MWNY today, an Apple rep did say that the biggest complaint was the lack of a monthly option. He said the systems weren't in place to take care of that yet, but assured me that by the time renewals are up next year, it'll be in place. Little comfort to us right now though.

When I asked him about the number of complaints they've received, he said Apple customers are vocal and so they've definitely heard the complaints. They seem to be using the expo to gauge customer reaction. When I was about to leave, he stopped me and asked outright, "So do you think you'll be signing up?" I told him right now I'm looking at my options as a .Mac subscription is just as expensive as a basic web-hosting plan which gives me more flexibility though less integration with OS X.

During our conversation, I brought up the web-hosting plan comparison and suggested Apple offer more services to get their web functionality up to par. My reasoning? I've got a personal site on another hosting service. .Mac costs just as much so I'd like to move my personal site to .Mac and take advantage of the .Mac-OS X integration, but I can't as .Mac doesn't offer as much web functionality and I can't justify paying for both services when there's so much overlap.

At first he was confused and thought I was using it for business purposes. To this end, he replied that they are looking at doing more for business users and business needs, though he didn't elaborate any more than bringing up the relationship between iMovie and Final Cut Pro, ie .Mac as we know it is like iMovie and .MacPro (my own term) would be like FCP.

When I clarified that I wanted more functionality for a personal site, he pointed out that .Mac isn't really being pushed as a full web hosting service but they were adding things, like the ability to collect feedback. I suggested adding something like an automated Blogging feature and he said it was a great idea and would suggest it to the higher ups.

That was about the extent of our conversation. I did get the feeling that Apple was listening to customers which gives me a glimmer of hope that .Mac would be worth the money. He also said that within the first month, they definitely planned to add more services. I think it would've been better to be less secretive and post those details to appease the masses (unless he was referring to the Coming Soon features already posted).

Nonsuch · Jul 18, 2002, 11:49 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by OAW:
IF this is true, it would be "better". However, I still wouldn't "like" it because there should be a discounted price anyway for those users who already purchased OS X. Having said that, I would probably go for it grudgingly because it would allow me to get my hands on Jaguar and keep my @mac.com email for a year.<hr /></blockquote>I think the exact same. Clever bods, those Apple guys.

robotmarkVIII · Jul 19, 2002, 12:01 AM

What if some organization (like MacNN) subscribed to .Mac, and then people who wanted to use just email would paypal them $10 to have their trial accounts upgraded?

mattmarshall · Jul 19, 2002, 12:03 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cmoney:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ron Goodman:
What I don't understand is why iSync can't sync Macs on local networks. Theoretically it should be possible.
<hr /></blockquote>adding this functionality--which is the most obvious way to go--cuts apple out as a middle man, and takes away their ability to accept your 100 dollars a year.

it should absolutely sync locally. that would be awesome.

gumby5647 · Jul 19, 2002, 12:14 AM

macnn.com email address. that would be pretty sweet. i'd gladly pay 20.00 or so a year for a [email protected] address

zcasper · Jul 19, 2002, 12:56 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cmoney:

That was about the extent of our conversation. I did get the feeling that Apple was listening to customers which gives me a glimmer of hope that .Mac would be worth the money. He also said that within the first month, they definitely planned to add more services. I think it would've been better to be less secretive and post those details to appease the masses (unless he was referring to the Coming Soon features already posted).<hr /></blockquote>I know alot of Apple people and if I can ever say anything about Apple, they do listen to their customers. This is very important to them. They may not do anything about it, but they do listen and will react sooner or later.

Zach

ringo · Jul 19, 2002, 01:17 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cmoney:
At MWNY today, an Apple rep did say that the biggest complaint was the lack of a monthly option. He said the systems weren't in place to take care of that yet, but assured me that by the time renewals are up next year, it'll be in place. Little comfort to us right now though.<hr /></blockquote>Wow, if that's true then Apple must have really pushed this out the door quickly. I'd think that the billing would be easy compared to the development time for OSX integration.

Maybe this is just Apple's reaction the the stock market drop and poor 2Q performance? I'm starting to wonder how well thought out this move was. It feels rushed.

Or maybe they're lying to the reps and just need to generate quick revenue, more than just the sum of 1st month fees.

[ 07-19-2002, 01:23 AM: Message edited by: ringo ]