[macintologist]

Let's face it. American-made cars are shite. Poor handling. Poor fuel economy. Poor design.

Here's yet more confirmation that Japanese simply make better cars

Consumer Reports Article - MSN Autos

What do you notice about the brands??

[hickey]

they all have vowels?

[sek929]

Toyota learned long ago that people are willing to pay thousands extra on a vehicle known for excellence.

[macintologist]

Theres a reason why the Camry is the best selling car in the US. It's not a coincidence.

[design219]

I drove Volvo's for years, and loved them, but now we have two toyotas and couldn't be more satisfied.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

Consumer Reports Article - MSN Autos

What do you notice about the brands??

Well, I noticed that all the cars appear to be unsuitable for any heterosexual gentleman who has nads larger than a peanut.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Well, I noticed that all the cars appear to be unsuitable for any heterosexual gentleman who has nads smaller than a peanut and needs to compensate.

Fixed

[imitchellg5]

They all have wheels?

[centerchannel68]

I agree that Japan's vehicles are a bit better, especially in terms of interior build quality, I don't think it's quite that simple. Consumer Reports, for example, bases all their stuff off from what CONSUMERS REPORT. Hence, if you have a car, you inform them what is good/bad about it. Any fact checking? Nope. More importantly, Domestic brands sell a lot of their cars to fleet companies, which does nothing but ruin already horrid resale values, so that a domestic car will be worth **** in just a few short years. Now, even IF this domestic was a superior engineered vehicle, the fact that it is now worth NOTHING, would make MANY owners (including myself) hesitant to put any money into maintaining it. What does this do? It makes it even worse, as a poorly maintained vehicle is going to be even less reliable.

Ex: I had a neon. It was worth MAYBE $3,000. The interior sucked. The rear main seal was leaking. Cost to fix? Over $700. Did I fix it? Hell no. Now, if I had a comparable Honda or Toyota, it would be worth more, and lot easier to sell. Would I maintain it? Hell yes.

Another issue: The stigma of certain cars. I've owned domestics and imports. All cars have parts that wear out. Now, I've actually HEARD a female acquaintence say "Oh I HATE my saturn! It's such a piece of crap! The brakes make this horrible grinding noise, and it squeals when it starts up and when I turn!" Truth be told, ALL cars will make 'horrible grinding noises' if you don't replace the pads when they start to squeak. She was grinding her calipers into her rotors, because she didn't maintain the vehicle. The squeal? A cheap freaking power steering belt that wasn't checked or replaced. It was probably original, and the car had over 120k on it. It generally seems that when stuff gets replaced on an import, it's not 'unreliable' or 'crappy', it is just needing 'maintenence'. So the same repair, on two different vehicles, is viewed in two drastically different lights.

And so... let's say both vehicles get reported to consumer reports. The domestic, through no fault of it's own, is now listed as unreliable, thanks to the owners not maintaining them. The import, which is more desirable, is maintained properly, and all repairs are viewed as 'scheduled maintenence' and CR lists it 'reliable'.

So please take CR with a grain of salt. After all, it listed the Dodge Neon as 'unreliable' for over 5 years AFTER Chrysler had fixed the 'headgasket problem'.

[Railroader]

Rob speaks the truth. And as usual macintologist spreads FUD.

The quality difference between foreign and domestics is miniscule. Looking at this chart at JDPower you can see that Buick and Cadillac have higher quality ratings than Toyota.

[mac128k-1984]

I've been a reader of consumer reports for years but the one thing that rubs me the wrong way is they seem to have an anti-American bias. I remember reading their april car edition for years and just about every American model was rated poor and every Japanese car was rated excellent. I've stopped using them as a guide when selecting cars.

I've owned various models of American cars (mostly dodge) and they've all been excellent cars for over 20 years. I've also owned my share of Japanese cars and they've been pretty decent - except for Subaru, that was a lemon and I'll never buy one of those again.

The moral of the story consider the source.

[Kevin Moon]

I rate my american car poor

[Sky Captain]

Where are the trucks?

I looked under the hood of one of the new Nissa full size trucks, what a nightmare.
What idiot engineered that thing? Apparently they want to make even more money off labor on repairs.

[sknapp351]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

After all, it listed the Dodge Neon as 'unreliable' for over 5 years AFTER Chrysler had fixed the 'headgasket problem'.

I don't disagree with what you say about CR, but I will happily agree that my fiancé's '02 Neon has been anything but reliable.

SAm

[OldManMac]

More misinformation about Consumer Reports spread here. They do not base ALL of their info from customer reports. They actually buy and test every model that they do reports on. Their ratings also include other issues than reliability, such as fit and finish, control switch ease of use and placement, headroom and legroom, ease of getting in and out of a vehicle, crashworthiness, road noise, blind spots, handling, and any number of other factors besides simply how reliable the vehicle. Even something as simple as getting in and out of a car can make a big difference. A great example of this is my daughter's Grand Prix GT. It's two years old, it's a four door (which is all they make now), and, because they try to make it look like a coupe, with the steep windshield and rear window angles, it's very hard for me to get in and out of either the front or the back, as I have to be very careful not to bang my head, and I'm not a tall man at 5' 9". This is not a small car, and this was something CR correctly marked it down for. It's also a poor handling car, riding more like the typical mush wagon than its name would seem to indicate. I was driving it the other night, and it took forever to figure out how to work the cruise control; it was very unintuitive, and the controls were mounted on a tiny stalk, completely obscured by the steering wheel. This is the kind of stuff that the imports do a better job at.

CR also doesn't take advertising, so they're far less likely to be biased. There's no reason for them to rate a domestic brand worse than an import brand. They are an independent testing laboratory; everything they test is bought by them. Also, maintaining your car, except for wear and tear items, has nothing to do with its reliability. If you have a car that's known to have intake manifold gasket problems, or premature control arm bushing wear problems, as an example, that has nothing to do with the owner maintaining those parts. For years, Ford Taurus' were known to have transmissions that didn't last, frequently crapping out before 80,000 miles. That's due to poor quality control and lousy engineering, and in those regards, CR is spot on. I will agree that domestic brands have gotten a lot better in the last few years, but it's taken a long time for the domestics to realize their issues, and its tough to convince someone to buy your product again once you've been burned.

[Big Mac]

A friend has a '99 Toyota small truck. He's had one problem after another with it lately. I don't dislike Japanese autos, and the Japanese companies definitely know how to manage their finances better. But if you think Japanese cars are across the board better than American cars, say hi to President Reagan for me because you're stuck in the '80's.

[Sealobo]

I believe in about 5 years some people will start to argue that american cars are just as good as their korean counterpart.

[Cipher13]

All I have to say is that Mazda's are the ****.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by mac128k-1984 

I've been a reader of consumer reports for years but the one thing that rubs me the wrong way is they seem to have an anti-American bias.

Most definiitaly. I remember one time they compared a BASE model Jeep Wrangler to a Suzuki Grand Viatra (whatever it is) with ALL the options, and claimed the Suzuki was more luxurious. REALLY? Maybe because you ordered completely different versions of the vehicles you knobheads! Or the time they reviewed the Mazda 6 with a sport package, and looke down on it for it's "rough" suspension. Any automotive mag that actually liked performane would call that good, but apparently they felt like ordering the sporty model and THEN bitching about the ride. CR is the last place I go for car information.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by sknapp351 

I don't disagree with what you say about CR, but I will happily agree that my fiancé's '02 Neon has been anything but reliable.

SAm

What's happened to it? My friend had an 01, and he drove it for 140,000 with minimal problems.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by KarlG 

There's no reason for them to rate a domestic brand worse than an import brand.

Then why do they stack the cards in one direction when they do comparison tests?

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

But if you think Japanese cars are across the board better than American cars, say hi to President Reagan for me because you're stuck in the '80's.

To be fair, japan in general has better reliability, better resale value, better interiors, better industrial design, better paint, better power, and better handling and braking. So... american cars have....uh.... um... price? And..uh... err... price?

[sknapp351]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

What's happened to it? My friend had an 01, and he drove it for 140,000 with minimal problems.

2002 Neon SXT
1. Battery died within the first two weeks
2. Both front hubs had to be replaced by 15k.
3. Radio was replaced by 21k
4. Throttle Body replaced at 27k. ( She was driving down the interstate and the car stuck at wide open throttle. She had to pull into a rest stop doing 80mph and shut the car off to coast into a spot. 150 mile towing bill )
5. Transmission PCM flashed due to stalling in reverse.
6. Catalytic Converter replaced at 50k.
7. Rod Bearings, 2 motor mounts, and transmission solenoid replaced at 71k.
8. At 73k we had to take it back for Rods knocking again. They installed a new short block, which took them two and a half weeks.

Since she was in college when she got the car her father gave her his Firestone card and the car hasn't missed any maintenance. And all repairs are done at the dealer. The car gets full service every 3k, including balance and rotation. Allignment every 6k. It is just a POS. And the radio is nearly dead once again.

SAm

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Sealobo 

I believe in about 5 years some people will start to argue that american cars are just as good as their korean counterpart.

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

Where are the trucks?

I looked under the hood of one of the new Nissa full size trucks, what a nightmare.
What idiot engineered that thing? Apparently they want to make even more money off labor on repairs.

Well, I wonder if it isn't uncommon for someone to do their own repairs in Japan.

[mac128k-1984]

Originally Posted by KarlG 

More misinformation about Consumer Reports spread here. They do not base ALL of their info from customer reports. They actually buy and test every model that they do reports on.

By the same token, I purchased a Nissan Sentra based their ratings and reviews. You know what it had the same issues as any American car has.

I still read CR but I'll not use that as my only source for buying stuff. Take child car seats, they created an uproar only to find out they did not test them correctly. This isn't the first time they've pulled a stunt like that.

[scottiB]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Looking at this chart at JDPower you can see that Buick and Cadillac have higher quality ratings than Toyota.

While I have the Big 4, er 3, er 2 running through my veins, Power's fairness is dubious.

As a CR subscriber, I don't think that there's any bias towards Japanese cars, they are better--but not by a wide margin depending on vehicle. My wife and I have a 2002 Focus wagon with 65k miles and a 1997 GMC Sonoma with 157k miles and have had no significant problems with either--so add that to everyone's anecdote (I've also just completed my CR car survey reflecting this).

The schadenfreud-ic glee that the OP has in trumpeting the article is shared by many I've noticed (especially in moving from Detroit to Maryland), and American cars will have to lead the CR surveys for a few years before they shed the image of poor quality.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

This past fall my mom blew the motor in her '07 Honda Civic after 14,000 kilometers.

That is all I have to contribute. Wait, when do German cars start getting based again?

greg

[design219]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

This past fall my mom blew the motor in her '07 Honda Civic after 14,000 kilometers.

Did she change the oil in that time?

[Eug]

It should also be noted that Buick and Cadillac are both owned by GM.

Toyota's competitor is GM, not much smaller individual components of GM.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by design219 

Did she change the oil in that time?

Haha, oh yeah.

greg

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Most definiitaly. I remember one time they compared a BASE model Jeep Wrangler to a Suzuki Grand Viatra (whatever it is) with ALL the options, and claimed the Suzuki was more luxurious. REALLY? Maybe because you ordered completely different versions of the vehicles you knobheads! Or the time they reviewed the Mazda 6 with a sport package, and looke down on it for it's "rough" suspension. Any automotive mag that actually liked performane would call that good, but apparently they felt like ordering the sporty model and THEN bitching about the ride. CR is the last place I go for car information.

Yeah, ever notice their "performance" times? The 0-60s and quarter miles times are sometimes a second or more slower than a "real" magazine testing the same car. They just don't seem like car people.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Gossamer 

Yeah, ever notice their "performance" times? The 0-60s and quarter miles times are sometimes a second or more slower than a "real" magazine testing the same car. They just don't seem like car people.

No they aren't. Then again, the majority of car sales don't go to "car people".

I agree that CR isn't necessarily the greatest magazine for anything, but their intent is not to target street racers or nascar devotees.

[cjrivera]

Originally Posted by scottiB 

While I have the Big 4, er 3, er 2 running through my veins, Power's fairness is dubious.

CR's fairness has also been questioned.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=4733
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto...4802.html?pg=2
http://www.allpar.com/cr.html
http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/shor...?session_code=
http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/newdots.php

[Oisín]

Bah, American and Japanese cars all suck. Ellerts FTW!

[Eug]

I don't think CR tries to be unfair. I think CR just does a poor job of rating stuff sometimes.

That said, the expectations by some for CR to rate things the same way as a hardcore car magazine are not really reasonable.

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Bah, American and Japanese cars all suck. Ellerts FTW!

Looks like something a movie cop should be driving.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by sknapp351 

2002 Neon SXT
1. Battery died within the first two weeks
2. Both front hubs had to be replaced by 15k.
3. Radio was replaced by 21k
4. Throttle Body replaced at 27k. ( She was driving down the interstate and the car stuck at wide open throttle. She had to pull into a rest stop doing 80mph and shut the car off to coast into a spot. 150 mile towing bill )
5. Transmission PCM flashed due to stalling in reverse.
6. Catalytic Converter replaced at 50k.
7. Rod Bearings, 2 motor mounts, and transmission solenoid replaced at 71k.
8. At 73k we had to take it back for Rods knocking again. They installed a new short block, which took them two and a half weeks.

1. The battery has nothing to do with Chrysler.
2. Someone didn't properly torque down her front wheels, or balance them, or both.
3. Was this a flood damaged vehicle? Why so many electrical problems?
4. I've never heard of anybody having a problem with neon throttle bodies, and I know a LOT of neon people.
5. What?
6. Definitely sounds flood damaged. Corrosion. Electrical.
7,8. ?!?!?! At 80k? Something is messed up about this. I know lots of neon owners, running nitrous, huge turbos, and people who really beat on their cars. Hell, I tried mine like crap, changed the oil once every 10k miles, and it got to 102k no problems whatsoever. Also, installing a new shortblock is not a 2.5 week job. At all. It should take a day. Neons are not very complex vehicles. I'm guessing this thing was either flood damaged, or the place she was taking it to be serviced had retards working on it, making it worse to get more money from her.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by mac128k-1984 

By the same token, I purchased a Nissan Sentra based their ratings and reviews. You know what it had the same issues as any American car has.

I still read CR but I'll not use that as my only source for buying stuff. Take child car seats, they created an uproar only to find out they did not test them correctly. This isn't the first time they've pulled a stunt like that.

Or the time they did a road test on a first generation neon, and reported the 0-60 times took over 10 seconds, when car and drive, road and track, and every other autmotive magazine managed 0-60 in 7.5 seconds. Their reasoning was "We didn't push the pedal down all the way, because we figured most people would never do that".

... WHAT THE F@#$(@*!??!?!

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Eug 

It should also be noted that Buick and Cadillac are both owned by GM.

Toyota's competitor is GM, not much smaller individual components of GM.

It should also be noted that Buick and Cadillac vehicle are designed, engineered, tested, and manufactured by completely different divisions. Just because GM owns the divisions does not mean they are the essentially the same.

I have yet to see a GM model car. I Do see Buick models and various models of Cadillac and Toyota. But again, no GM cars.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

It should also be noted that Buick and Cadillac vehicle are designed, engineered, tested, and manufactured by completely different divisions. Just because GM owns the divisions does not mean they are the essentially the same.

I have yet to see a GM model car. I Do see Buick models and various models of Cadillac and Toyota. But again, no GM cars.

Why don't you compare Cadillac to Lexus then?

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by Eug 

No they aren't. Then again, the majority of car sales don't go to "car people".

I agree that CR isn't necessarily the greatest magazine for anything, but their intent is not to target street racers or nascar devotees.

Yes, but by not 'flooring a vehicle', and hten reporting it's performance, it's absolutely pointless to do the comparison. By that rational a yugo could be a 'faster' car than a dodge viper.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Then why do they stack the cards in one direction when they do comparison tests?

You've already answered your own question.

What I find interesting is that everybody has their own anecdotal experiences, which they then think they can extrapolate out to the rest of the auotomotive world's experiences. When a motor (engine) burns out at 14,000 miles, it means nothing, except of course to the unfortunate person who's engine blew, unless it's a known problem. (What I'm curious about is how this engine "burned out" at 14,000 miles) If it becomes a known issue, then corrections need to be taken, and then we can point to that model and say there were know issue with it and it might be best to avoid it. There are no perfect products, when it comes to mechanical/electrical components, be it in a washing machine, a car, a computer, an airplane, etc., etc.

Unfortunately, people want to extrapolate their experiences out, because it alleviates them of any guilt in the purchasing decision; no one wants to admit they made a bad choice, so if their motor burns out prematurely, as an example, they come to the conclusion that they bought a junky car and won't buy another one because of the "problems" they've had with it. It's almost human nature, but it will continue because the vast majority of consumers don't do nearly the research they should before purchasing almost anything. Heck, I've done it myself. I purchased a 97 GrandAm GT coupe when it was three years old, and it turned out to be a true POS, because it had several issues that were known to be problems, and that CR reported on, but I bought the car without doing the research first. I went to the dealer looking for a specific car I'd seen on their web site, but it was gone when I got there, so the GrandAm was the next "best" car they had that I liked. Had I done the research, I would have avoided it like the plague, but I paid for my mistake, dearly. Next time, I'll be more diligent, and hopefully will have a better experience.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Why don't you compare Cadillac to Lexus then?

Because the OP made a blanket statement and I proved it wrong. Please try to keep in context.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by KarlG 

You've already answered your own question.

What I find interesting is that everybody has their own anecdotal experiences, which they then think they can extrapolate out to the rest of the auotomotive world's experiences.

Yeah well... I understand your point, but when I hung out with tons and tons of neon enthusiasts who really pushed the envelope of what their cars can do, and I didn't see ANY electrical problems, and the engines would only start breaking parts under HEAVY boost, I really question these people who say that their neon had all these electrical / engine problems. I mean, come on:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xYJ6-n1OL8k

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FEH01_F_ILA

I know almost all those people. None had electrical problems. None had engine problems, unless it was running a LOT of nitrous, or a lot of boost.

[Eug]

Well, I happen to agree with the sentiment that GM cars (on average) are not as well made as Toyota cars (on average). Sure, individual GM cars/series of cars may be better than individual Toyota cars/series of cars, but that's a different kettle of fish.

[sknapp351]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Definitely sounds flood damaged. Corrosion. Electrical

The car was purchased brand new from the dealer in the fall of '02. It has been in the rain, but thats it. All repairs were done by dealers under warranty, no cost to us. Only oil changes and new tires around 40k done outside the dealership. It is just a lemon. Ironically it is yellow.....
SAm

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

It should also be noted that Buick and Cadillac vehicle are designed, engineered, tested, and manufactured by completely different divisions. Just because GM owns the divisions does not mean they are the essentially the same.

I have yet to see a GM model car. I Do see Buick models and various models of Cadillac and Toyota. But again, no GM cars.

Not exactly true. It's true there are no GM branded cars, and that they have different nameplates attached to them, but they use the same engines, drivetrains, and platforms for multiple models, within the same series, and have done so for years. The real differences are with trim levels, appearance, and available options. A Chevy Cobalt and a Saturn Ion are built on the same platform. From a distance, it's hard to tell the difference between a Saab 9-7x and a Chevy Trailblazer, because they're built on the same platform. Many of the brands within GM share the same engines, transmissions, and platforms. As a matter of fact, this is common industry practice; it helps keep costs down, and it's a great way to fool the public. Ford and Chrysler do the exact same thing. Anyone who thinks that the Chrysler 300 and the Dodge Charger are different cars underneath is fooling themselves. Just because they're tested by different divisions, and the fan blower motor is engineered differently for a Buick than a Chevrolet, which is because of dash design, doesn't make them different. I'm surprised you would say such a thing, as IIRC you used to work for, or still work for GM.

[highstakes]

Wow...no Lexus's.

[centerchannel68]

What does lexus own?