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reader50
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Dec 20, 2010, 08:39 PM
 
I'm considering upgrading from compacts to a real camera, but I'm not in any hurry. And new models are often introduced in February - sometimes January too.

Right now, Amazon and many other places are offering promotions, where you buy the camera and get discounts (or package deals) on extra lenses. And it looks like the lens investment could easily top the camera price.

Do the lens promotions with camera run full-time, or when they end around Dec 31, do they not return until ~ November of next year? When is the best time to buy your first DSLR? I'm not familiar with the DSLR marketing cycle.

For reference, I'm thinking about cameras between the Pentax K-x on the low end, and the Rebel T2i on the high end. With kit lens, and kit telephoto zoom. Probably not going after a serious lens investment.
     
Oisín
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Dec 20, 2010, 08:52 PM
 
Probably not going after a serious lens investment.
Sure.

Keep telling yourself that.

     
Veltliner
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Dec 21, 2010, 02:58 AM
 
Canon is the much more expansible system, and the Rebels are excellent. Also, when you buy a Canon, you usually get a great deal on one of Canon's professional printers ($100 to $250, and worth it).
     
reader50  (op)
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Dec 21, 2010, 04:14 AM
 
I already have a Canon printer.

I'm mainly interested in if camera + lens promotions continue year-around. Or if they only turn up during holiday season.
     
OreoCookie
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Dec 21, 2010, 04:46 AM
 
For beginners, it doesn't really matter what system they go with, they all cover the basic needs of a photographer. The statement that the cost of lenses can easily exceed that of the body is the understatement of the year! That's basically the whole point of slrs: being able to use quality lenses.

First, we need to know your budget.

With regards to camera brand:
(1) Wipe your memory of all reviews you've read online.
(2) Go to a store and try all dslrs by different manufacturers. I also recommend you take the Panasonic GF-1 and Olympus EP-2 into your hands and try them as well. They're smaller than dslrs, but also offer interchangeable lenses and have large sensors. My best friend made the switch from a D70 to a GF-1 and ever since he has taken a lot more pictures -- the best camera is the camera you have with you!

Once you've settled on a brand and camera type, we can give you specific recommendations. I like to recommend people to skip the kit lens and get the 17-50 mm f/2.8 Tamron instead.
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ghporter
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Dec 21, 2010, 07:34 AM
 
I'm with Oreo on this. I had steeled myself to going with a Nikon when I finally decided to spend the money to get a DSLR. Then I went to BestBuy. And Wolf Camera. And just about every other storefront that offered DSLRs. And I just kept falling back to Canons. I also found out which reviews that I'd read were more advertising than critique (handy, but volatile-some reviewers are quite reliable except with certain products.)

At the time, once settled on Canon, I then balanced the features and costs and wound up getting the 10MP Digital Rebel XTi instead of the (then much pricier) 12MP "next step up." I'm still very happy about this.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
OreoCookie
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Dec 21, 2010, 09:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I also found out which reviews that I'd read were more advertising than critique (handy, but volatile-some reviewers are quite reliable except with certain products.)
Agreed.
Most differences in image quality, for instance, will be visible only under extreme conditions of under very close scrutiny, dslrs produce great-looking images when you use ISO 100-400, no matter if you're using a 4/3 camera, full frame or a 1.5x crop dslr.

The noted `good high-ISO behavior crown' that Canon and Nikon fight for each camera generation is such an extreme condition. Ditto for things involving `frames per second' and `autofocus.' Even entry-level cameras nowadays offer a lot. I remember getting my (analog) F80 and I thought 2.5 fps was fast!

Personally, I find a small viewfinder or a (to me) cumbersome user interface as well as size to have much more impact on the photo (photo quality as opposed to image quality) than anything else. The best camera is the one you have with you.
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Demonhood
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Dec 21, 2010, 03:34 PM
 
Oh, and Canon does these type of lens deals 2 or 3 times a year, not just at the holidays.
     
ghporter
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Dec 21, 2010, 09:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
The noted `good high-ISO behavior crown' that Canon and Nikon fight for each camera generation is such an extreme condition.
My EOS XTi offers ISO 1600. The T2i goes up to 6400 and can be expanded to do 12,800. At that high setting, does the camera capture individual photons? Yikes! I've never set my camera manually higher than 400, and on any of the programmable modes, I consistently get away with ISO 200 or less (automatically selected by the program or set by me). Sure, a sensitive sensor is good, but come on!

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Demonhood
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Dec 21, 2010, 10:22 PM
 
Whereas I regularly shoot events at ISO 1600-2000 (no flash is allowed or practical). So it can certainly matter to some.
     
Oisín
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Dec 21, 2010, 11:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
My EOS XTi offers ISO 1600. The T2i goes up to 6400 and can be expanded to do 12,800. At that high setting, does the camera capture individual photons? Yikes! I've never set my camera manually higher than 400, and on any of the programmable modes, I consistently get away with ISO 200 or less (automatically selected by the program or set by me). Sure, a sensitive sensor is good, but come on!
The Nikon D3x (or whatever it’s called) goes up to ISO 102,400. Now that is something only a select few will ever need.

I avoid high ISO as much as I can, but when a flash isn’t allowed and you’re shooting concerts, ISO 1600 is often necessary, and ISO 2000–2500 can be, too. I do generally steer clear of low-light photography at ISO 3200 and above, though—the pictures come out simply too grainy to be useful, anyway.
     
OreoCookie
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Dec 22, 2010, 04:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Demonhood View Post
Whereas I regularly shoot events at ISO 1600-2000 (no flash is allowed or practical). So it can certainly matter to some.
Yes, but nowadays it seems to be normal to offer 5-digit ISO values on all cameras even if the photos look so shitty I'd never even consider using them. The Pentax K-5 offers ISO 51,200 (!), for instance.

What I meant is: all dslrs on sale allow for high-ISO settings of at least ISO 3200. If you look at, say, dpreview, the performance of cameras of the same generation on all models isn't too far apart and thus IMO not a deciding factor for most people.
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ghporter
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Dec 22, 2010, 07:52 AM
 
The higher the ISO rating, the noisier the digital image will be, no matter how "fast" the sensor is. Of course really fast sensors will have less noise at a given rating than less sensitive sensors. But while in some situations it's important to get the shot and then worry about cleaning it up (Demonhood's really high ISO shots are a great example), they're not as common for most of us as 100-400 range shots. DH, what kind of situations are you shooting with such high ISO settings?

I'm a hacker (in the older, golf/computer hobbyist sense) when it comes to digital photography; I'm much more comfortable with documenting projects and experiments than with getting candid or artistic shots, so I'm really used to throwing in as much light as possible, then having to deal with a little white balance afterward. But this Canon of mine came in really handy for catching lots and lots of great, candid shots in several situations. Even though I really looked very "tourist" when I took it on my last vacation...

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
reader50  (op)
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Dec 22, 2010, 08:16 AM
 
I took the plunge and ordered a Rebel T2i with kit lens and the kit telephoto. On top of the lens promotion, Amazon was offering another $100 promo code for the camera. Despite the wording of the terms, the promotions can both be used. With free 1-day ship during the holidays, I should be playing with my first real camera by tomorrow night.
     
mattyb
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Dec 22, 2010, 01:21 PM
 
Congrats, start saving NOW for that next lens.

Don't forget to post some piccies.
     
richwig83
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Dec 22, 2010, 06:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Veltliner View Post
Canon is the much more expansible system, and the Rebels are excellent. Also, when you buy a Canon, you usually get a great deal on one of Canon's professional printers ($100 to $250, and worth it).
What a load of crock!!!
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ghporter
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Dec 22, 2010, 10:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by richwig83 View Post
Originally Posted by Veltliner View Post
Canon is the much more expansible system, and the Rebels are excellent. Also, when you buy a Canon, you usually get a great deal on one of Canon's professional printers ($100 to $250, and worth it).
What a load of crock!!!
Adherence to the various camera brands tends to bring out religious/political reactions from adherents of other brands. Vetliner's statement is his opinion, as much as richwig's opinion is his own. Neither provides facts upon which the statements are based. (Yes, that's an invitation to provide data...)

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
richwig83
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Dec 23, 2010, 05:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Adherence to the various camera brands tends to bring out religious/political reactions from adherents of other brands. Vetliner's statement is his opinion, as much as richwig's opinion is his own. Neither provides facts upon which the statements are based. (Yes, that's an invitation to provide data...)
Nope... not here!! I use Canon!

But to say that one system is more expansible that the other is rubbish!
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Veltliner
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Dec 23, 2010, 06:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by richwig83 View Post
What a load of crock!!!
Originally Posted by richwig83 View Post

But to say that one system is more expansible that the other is rubbish!
Foolish and ignorant posts.
( Last edited by Veltliner; Dec 23, 2010 at 06:32 AM. )
     
Veltliner
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Dec 23, 2010, 06:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Adherence to the various camera brands tends to bring out religious/political reactions from adherents of other brands. Vetliner's statement is his opinion, as much as richwig's opinion is his own. Neither provides facts upon which the statements are based. (Yes, that's an invitation to provide data...)
This is not about brands.

Canon and Nikon are preferred options for professionals as they have the widest range of lenses available.

Sony has excellent cameras and zeiss lenses but there are still holes in the line-up.

Pentax is probably the worst choice, and Olympus, while producing excellent cameras, is hampered by their sticking to small sensors.

Generally I don't discuss gear. I just meant to give you some advice.

But your choice was very good, and I wish you a lot of fun with your camera. Take a look at the manual. Will give you serious input on how to use your new gear.
     
richwig83
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Dec 23, 2010, 06:33 AM
 
Sorry... i thought you were implying that Canon was more expansible than any other... my fault and misreading!

(pentax/olymus/sony etc.... dont waste your time)
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ghporter
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Dec 23, 2010, 07:25 AM
 
Sorry folks, but it had looked to me like a camera jihad was about to go down. Glad to see I was wrong.

"Real camera" brands all have more complete lines of lenses and useful accessories than non-"camera" companies. That includes not only Canon and Nikon but Pentax and Olympus too. But not all camera companies' offerings are as complete or as effective. When you look at companies like Sony, you see big holes in their offerings.

When I bought my first digital camera, I went with a Kodak instead of an HP or Sony because the Kodak was a "real camera." Not the best possible product, sure, but it was a camera that happened to be digital, while the HP and Sony cameras I'd seen and used were all digital products that happened to take pictures. The gulf between the kinds of products has gotten more like a canyon, but it's still there and still hard to miss. I'll stick with a camera from a traditional camera company-and since I started SLR use with a Canon, I'm going to stick with them.

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OreoCookie
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Dec 23, 2010, 09:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by Veltliner View Post
Canon and Nikon are preferred options for professionals as they have the widest range of lenses available.
Reader is not a professional, so I don't think it's terribly relevant. All manufacturers have a complete lens selection for ambitious amateurs and beyond. Even if you want/need a full frame-sized, the selection decreases to four manufacturers. But most people don't want/can't afford full frame bodies anyway.
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Veltliner
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Dec 25, 2010, 07:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Reader is not a professional, so I don't think it's terribly relevant. All manufacturers have a complete lens selection for ambitious amateurs and beyond. Even if you want/need a full frame-sized, the selection decreases to four manufacturers. But most people don't want/can't afford full frame bodies anyway.
No sweat. He made a good choice anyway. TheT2i has the same sensor as the 7D. And a very good movie mode, if he's interested in video.
     
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Dec 25, 2010, 07:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by richwig83 View Post
Sorry... i thought you were implying that Canon was more expansible than any other... my fault and misreading!
No problem. The sky's cleared up and the sun's shining again
     
reader50  (op)
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Dec 26, 2010, 05:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by Veltliner View Post
No sweat. He made a good choice anyway. TheT2i has the same sensor as the 7D. And a very good movie mode, if he's interested in video.
I might be down the road. I tend to keep major purchases until they no longer have a resale value, so my Rebel will probably be in use for the next 5-10 years (barring theft, failure, charging mammoth, etc). So it made sense to buy upwards on features a bit, to allow future headroom. 720p video is typical on the other cameras I considered. That's perfectly good today, but will be lame in 5 years.

I ruled out Sony on principle - I don't buy anything from Sony since the rootkit scandal. And they have that problem with pushing proprietary elements that don't catch on.

Olympus and Panasonic got ruled out because of the four-thirds sensors. I'm OK with the mirrorless idea, but wanted a sensor in the APS-C size. And I really dislike the 4:3 aspect ratio. Displays have all gone widescreen, and I view pictures rather than print them. So taking 4:3 pics is a step back.

For me, I ended up considering the Pentax K-x, Nikon D3100, D5000, and Rebel T2i. The K-x has an excellent price, but it's feature set and 12 Mpx will not hold up well in a few years. The higher cameras add successively better features. The final holiday promotions on the Canon finally made the choice easy.
     
Veltliner
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Dec 27, 2010, 01:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
I might be down the road. I tend to keep major purchases until they no longer have a resale value, so my Rebel will probably be in use for the next 5-10 years (barring theft, failure, charging mammoth, etc). So it made sense to buy upwards on features a bit, to allow future headroom. 720p video is typical on the other cameras I considered. That's perfectly good today, but will be lame in 5 years.

I ruled out Sony on principle - I don't buy anything from Sony since the rootkit scandal. And they have that problem with pushing proprietary elements that don't catch on.

Olympus and Panasonic got ruled out because of the four-thirds sensors. I'm OK with the mirrorless idea, but wanted a sensor in the APS-C size. And I really dislike the 4:3 aspect ratio. Displays have all gone widescreen, and I view pictures rather than print them. So taking 4:3 pics is a step back.

For me, I ended up considering the Pentax K-x, Nikon D3100, D5000, and Rebel T2i. The K-x has an excellent price, but it's feature set and 12 Mpx will not hold up well in a few years. The higher cameras add successively better features. The final holiday promotions on the Canon finally made the choice easy.
Enjoy your camera! Be sure to try out the free DPP RAW converter that came with it. I still use it because of its quality conversions (and I have two more RAW converters on my computer) even though the interface is not so appealing.

Just for future readers: the 60D is also a good choice because of its excellent viewfinder. An optical viewfinder is just the best for photography in my opinion and I wouldn't get a camera that doesn't have one (except a little slip-in-pocket, also called point-and-shoots ).

If you have any questions in regard to software, just post in the application forum before you buy something.

Have fun!
     
mattyb
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Dec 27, 2010, 04:46 AM
 
I know that reader50 has already chosen his desired poison, but I think that its important to stress that the feel of the beast in your hand, the ergonomics, is probably the most vital part of choosing a camera. If you can't get comfortable using the thing, then you'll never take any pictures. The Sonys just don't feel good in my hands, the Canons a bit better. The Nikons have (what seems to me) that perfect grip thickness. I also considered lens selection choices. Pentax seems too expensive here in France, Sony/Minolta while being cheaper didn't have a decent 2nd hand market. Canon or Nikon stood out here.

I'm glad that I didn't start with the Olympus system. They've basically said that they'll only do the E5 and then its Pen type cameras from now on, no more E-620 style bodies. Pity because the Zuiko lenses are supposed to be phenominal. I also like the idea of fast primes, and the µ4/3 and 4/3 suppliers don't have many primes.
     
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Dec 28, 2010, 05:38 AM
 
I have been researching DSLR's for the last couple weeks because of boxing day sales and this is what I have discovered.

Nikon is a good choice for lens because all the lenses from what I understand fit on all Nikon Cameras. You can technically attach the old style film lenses on the new Digital Cameras (though it will all be manual operation)

Canon advances lens technology more hence lenses changing fit style making them more complex in that no all lenses work with all Camera lines

Canon puts stabilization in the lenses not the Camera so the lenses cost more. You can get 2 different prices for the same kind of lens, one with the stabilization and one with out.

Anyways to cut a post short

Image Stabilization - Sony, Samsung, Pentax and Olympus are good choices with the Stabilization being in the body hence all lenses get it, and the lenses are cheaper.

High ISO Performance - Canon, Nikon, Pentax and Sony are the winners here

Market Share and Len Choices and Accesorries - Canon and Nikon clear winners here.

Overall I am thinking about Pentax Camera's for the price point and performance. I like the idea of having the image stabilization in the body not the lens. What I haven't found yet is if Pentax is like Nikon with standard lens connections. The way Canon changes fittings and builds lens for different models of Cameras was a put off for me. Because Pentax also perform's well with high ISO, its so far is my first choice.
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Veltliner
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Dec 28, 2010, 11:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post

Nikon is a good choice for lens because all the lenses from what I understand fit on all Nikon Cameras.

There was a time where this was not true.

The lenses for the D40 and D60 are specific to these cameras. It has to do with the motor for the autofocus.

Some low end D40/60 successors may apply the same principles.

Be sure to research this so you won't have a rude awakening.
     
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Dec 29, 2010, 12:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post

Canon puts stabilization in the lenses not the Camera so the lenses cost more. You can get 2 different prices for the same kind of lens, one with the stabilization and one with out.

Anyways to cut a post short

Image Stabilization - Sony, Samsung, Pentax and Olympus are good choices with the Stabilization being in the body hence all lenses get it, and the lenses are cheaper.

High ISO Performance - Canon, Nikon, Pentax and Sony are the winners here

Market Share and Len Choices and Accesorries - Canon and Nikon clear winners here.

Overall I am thinking about Pentax Camera's for the price point and performance. I like the idea of having the image stabilization in the body not the lens. What I haven't found yet is if Pentax is like Nikon with standard lens connections. The way Canon changes fittings and builds lens for different models of Cameras was a put off for me. Because Pentax also perform's well with high ISO, its so far is my first choice.
Nikon also puts the stabilization into the lenses (VR lenses).

Sony has it built into the bodies.
     
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Dec 29, 2010, 01:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Veltliner View Post
There was a time where this was not true.

The lenses for the D40 and D60 are specific to these cameras. It has to do with the motor for the autofocus.

Some low end D40/60 successors may apply the same principles.

Be sure to research this so you won't have a rude awakening.
Thats what I mean by manual use, the physical connection for the lens are all the same but some lenses can only operate in a manual fashion due to motors/communication setups. This is still better then Canon which makes the physical connections differently itself. Not that having them all the same and not being able to make full use of the lens is a true advantage.

** Question for those who know a lot about DSLR Cameras

Pentax, general opinions on them?
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Dec 29, 2010, 04:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
** Question for those who know a lot about DSLR Cameras

Pentax, general opinions on them?
2 reasons that I didn't get into Pentax. Lens prices and auto focus speed compared to Nikon or Canon. This info was from Pentax forum dwellers on dpreview. Lenses for Pentax are more expensive here in France than the competition.
     
   
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