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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac Desktops > Q: Original brand hard drive imac 24" 2.4Ghz (EMC 2134)

Q: Original brand hard drive imac 24" 2.4Ghz (EMC 2134) (Page 2)
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akent35
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Aug 16, 2014, 01:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by chasg View Post
Thanks for the good wishes akent35 (and just fyi: it's "chasG", not "Q" :-)

The temperature app is pretty cool, as my last post details. The graph over time is particularly useful, wish I'd known about this before the original hard drive died (just so I could definitely know if it were part of the problem).

I just noticed where you're from. Coincidentally, I was in Kent, England the other day, I didn't know there was one in WA. Those English colonists didn't have a lot of imagination when they went elsewhere, did they (I used to live in Canada, where in an hour I could get to a Windsor, Cambridge, Stratford, Hamilton and a London :-)

Cheers!

Chas
Sorry about the misspelling, Chasg! (Think I got it now)

Not sure where the name of the city I am in came from, as Washington did not become a state until 1889. Here's a little bit of history about the city of Kent, WA:

HistoryLink.org- the Free Online Encyclopedia of Washington State History

My wife and I were in London, England last December. Our oldest son lives and works there. Did not get out to Kent, England, though.

By the way, your country has had two excellent actors in recent American TV series! One, of course, is Martin Williams, who was truly brilliant as Lester Nygaard in "Fargo". The other is Matthew Rhys (born in Cardiff, Whales), who is also truly brilliant in "The Americans" (this one is still on TV, with Season 3 set to start sometime in January or February). What truly amazes me about both of them is how perfectly they speak "American" English in their roles. It is truly something!
     
Mike Wuerthele
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Aug 16, 2014, 02:12 PM
 
That GPU temp is hot. I'll see what I can find out about acceptable ranges.

I was leaning (in my head) towards a power supply issue earlier, and those temps are high too. I'll do a little reading and ask some pointed questions of some friends to see what I can find out.

Edit- that didn't take long. While on the very high end of ACCEPTABLE, your PSU and GPU temperatures are extremely high. Either one or both is a likely issue.
     
reader50
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Aug 16, 2014, 02:22 PM
 
It's odd that multiple locations are running so hot. Like the fans are not spinning up, or are blocked. Did you vacuum everything out before reassembly, including the case vent holes? Preferably including blowing out the fan ducts too.

I've lost track earlier, did you do a PRAM reset at any time? If the firmware isn't spinning the fans up with higher temps, that would explain everything.
     
P
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Aug 18, 2014, 04:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by chasg View Post
Ok, it's now 7 minutes later, and the app's graph has shown a slight downward trend in temp for many components, with the others remaining steady. The GP diode is 89C, the GP heatsink is 80C, the GP chip is 77C and the power supply is steady at 89C (and the SSD has risen one degree to 51C).
I think we have found the problem. The GPU can stand running that hot (it is a laptop model, and they can take more heat), but the PSU is way over its limit - about 40C over. Either it is shutting down as some sort of thermal overload protection, or the caps are just shorting. 89C is high enough that they might be doing that. I think that one of your fans is not moving at all.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
akent35
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Aug 18, 2014, 01:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
I think we have found the problem. The GPU can stand running that hot (it is a laptop model, and they can take more heat), but the PSU is way over its limit - about 40C over. Either it is shutting down as some sort of thermal overload protection, or the caps are just shorting. 89C is high enough that they might be doing that. I think that one of your fans is not moving at all.
Let's hope, for the op's sake, it is that. But, now how to fix that. If it's a simple thing like either the fan itself is defective, or there is a loose connection, that would make it somewhat easy to repair. But, if it's due to some other, more complicated fault (especially if it's electrical in nature), that will be challenging to repair it.
     
P
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Aug 20, 2014, 04:06 PM
 
I can tell you that the root cause is that the PSU is overheating, because a PSU temp that high will cause problems. That it is the fan not working is just a theory.

I looked around, and temperature monitor does not show fan speeds. Instead, you can use System Monitor from the same company, which does include fan speeds in a somewhat hidden location: Open the app, and pull down the menu from the temperature. That will show you the fan speeds. Or just try to feel if there is an airflow at the PSU (where the power cable goes in).

If the fan is not spinning, best is to replace the entire fan assembly for that fan - if one can find a replacement.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
chasg  (op)
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Aug 20, 2014, 04:27 PM
 
Well, it's a relief to get a definitive answer to the spontaneous shut down problems! Thanks for all the advice and diagnoses :-)

There is at least one fan going, I can hear it. I'm assuming it's the one in the bottom right of this image:

http://www.bothhemispheres.com/galle...t/interior.jpg

I had thought that the one on the right of the image (black, up a bit) was sitting over the GPU, is there another large fan in this model of iMac that I can check out?

Looks like I'll need to take the bezel off again to definitively see if the fan(s) are running. Kicking myself for not checking when I had it apart before (grr).

I'll install System Monitor and see what it says, thanks for the further pointer, Mr. P!
     
akent35
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Aug 21, 2014, 02:05 AM
 
Via a google search, it looks like the part number for the fan is 922-8153. Here is a link to the results of a google search on that part number:

https://www.google.com/search?q=922-...x-a&channel=sb

It looks like you have a number of places where you can order one.
     
P
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Aug 21, 2014, 05:14 AM
 
I certainly hope that Apple put in a PSU fan in that model - the PSU is one of the things that both produces heat and needs to run cool, and it had a fan even back when CPUs didn't. My 27" iMac has three fans with different cooling zones - CPU, PSU, GPU - but I never owned a 24" iMac.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
chasg  (op)
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Aug 21, 2014, 11:00 AM
 
Thanks akent35, that'll come in handy (oh, and by the way, I point you to Hugh Laurie as House!).

P, I didn't see a third fan, but then I didn't see the psu either, it must've been under...stuff...that I didn't take apart. Rats, I'd hate to pull out all of those daughter cards.

I hope to take it apart again this weekend (if I can find the time, doing a ton of editing by Monday!).

Thanks again,

Chas
     
P
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Aug 21, 2014, 11:30 AM
 
Not so great news. Just looked around some more and found a teardown of what must be your model:

Disassembled iMac (2007 Mid) by KODAWARISAN_Page3

There is a third fan, in the center right where it would cool the PSU (assuming that the PSU is there, as that's where I remember the external AC jack is)... but it is behind the motherboard. You'd have to remove it and all of its heatsinks and attached heatpipes as one unit. Please post some fan stats before you start doing that.

That also means that akent's model number is not the right part - the CPU fan is the big one in the bottom left corner. That fan apparently also cools the GPU, (which is stupid, as those two are the biggest heat producers when loading the machine, but I guess they're both laptop components in this model), so if the CPU temp is reasonable, that fan is working.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
akent35
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Aug 21, 2014, 01:24 PM
 
I actually tried, via a google search of "How many fans are in an iMac EMC 2134", but could not come up with anything useful! But, great work, P!

Now, I am trying a google search of "Cooling fan for the Heat Sink for an iMac EMC 2134", so that I can get the part number, but so far, no luck. But, here is a link to a "teardown" of the iMac in order to remove the heat sink. I believe you will need to follow the first 34 steps in order to eventually remove the fan that P referred to:

https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iMac+In...placement/1017

I'll keep trying to get the part number for you.

OK, I got it! Took a bit of work, but it looks like the part number is 620-4355. But, based on two google searches using that part number (one for just the part number itself, and the other using 620-43455 along with your iMac model number (EMC 2134)), I could only find it on ebay:

iMac 24 inch A1225 CPU Fan 620 4335 | eBay

Hopefully, all of that is correct, and will help you.

Good luck!
( Last edited by akent35; Aug 21, 2014 at 01:46 PM. )
     
chasg  (op)
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Aug 21, 2014, 03:04 PM
 
Well, here are what the three fans are doing (and the temperatures of the various sensors):



I've felt by hand and the little grill in back (above where the plug goes in) is blowing cool air. Not a lot of volume, but cool, definitely not close to 100C! The aluminium in this spot is cool too.

The only place on this iMac that is hot to the touch is the back, upper left (as you look at the screen). Very hot. This is where the blue circuit board in the below image is (thanks P for the link). Not sure what this is though.



So, all fans are working, yay (a full tear down is do-able, but I'd really rather not). The cool air coming from the PSU fan is a bit confusing, it should be hot (unless this grill is where air is drawn in, and I'm feeling just a little blow back, and still, I'd expect the aluminium of the case here to be hot at least). And the hot-to-touch back upper left is a bit worrying.

Mysteries abound!
     
chasg  (op)
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Aug 21, 2014, 03:09 PM
 
I just noticed this post over at MacFixit, by the way.

Exact same symptoms (even down to where the case is getting hot in the back upper left). This guy replaced the PSU to no avail, so I'm not going to do that in attempt to solve the problem (he's at least saved me much ££ and time):

https://www.ifixit.com/Answers/View/...eplacement+PSU
     
reader50
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Aug 21, 2014, 03:34 PM
 
If a component is hot, but airflow is cool, then something is blocking the airflow. The PSU ventilation holes perhaps, so the air bypasses it instead of flowing through. Or fuzz buildup within the PS around the hotter components.

You could tear things down enough to vacuum everything, and use compressed air for the parts the vacuum can't get into. And I would suggest getting a visual confirmation of the fans spinning.
     
akent35
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Aug 21, 2014, 03:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
If a component is hot, but airflow is cool, then something is blocking the airflow. The PSU ventilation holes perhaps, so the air bypasses it instead of flowing through. Or fuzz buildup within the PS around the hotter components.

You could tear things down enough to vacuum everything, and use compressed air for the parts the vacuum can't get into. And I would suggest getting a visual confirmation of the fans spinning.
Those are excellent suggestions, and certainly worth a try! And, if successful, it does not cost anything. Plus, you'll definitely have an expert understanding of the inside of your iMac.
     
P
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Aug 22, 2014, 05:45 AM
 
Top left is the outflow from the main heatsink for the CPU/GPU. That is likely hot, yes.

The center fan is the HDD fan, which isn't even moving fast (the CPU fan is REALLY working hard, though - I think 3300 is its peak).

The blue board in the top left is probably the wireless module, which would explain why it gets hot eventually - it is secondary heat from the CPU/GPU heatsink.

A fan doing 1253 rpm does not correspond to the PSU being over 90C, which gives us a few possible options:

* The fan should be spinning up in response to that temp, but the SMC is confused. Try resetting it:

Intel-based Macs: Resetting the System Management Controller (SMC)

* The HDD fan does not operate based on the PSU temp, and that is by design. As a workaround, you could try SMCfancontrol to speed up that fan a bit.

* Airflow over the PSU is blocked, and the fan is pulling air from somewhere else - reader50's theory. I would expect the fan to be revving if this were the case, but it could be if that the airflow is good even if it doesn't come over the PSU. Vacuum is good - especially "the wrong way" to dislodge things - or disassembly

* The PSU isn't actually hot at all, but the thermal sensor is broken and flipping the thermal runaway cutoff. This is possibly hardest to fix, but you might able to disable the sensor completely if you're confident about the cooling.

A question: Is the iMac hot if you try touching it close to the AC plug?
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Mike Wuerthele
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Aug 22, 2014, 09:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
A fan doing 1253 rpm does not correspond to the PSU being over 90C, which gives us a few possible options:
1253 is not the normal fan speed at low temp. 500 is.

So, the SMC is responding to something, whether or not this is an appropriate response, I don't know. My gut is to replace the power supply, but its not a new machine, and the cost to benefit isn't super.
     
reader50
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Aug 22, 2014, 02:29 PM
 
Good catch on the different fan speeds. I assumed the graphs were to the same scale, and didn't read the numbers. Because they were all modulating between zero and full speed. Or so it seemed.
     
l008com
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Aug 24, 2014, 03:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
* The HDD fan does not operate based on the PSU temp, and that is by design. As a workaround, you could try SMCfancontrol to speed up that fan a bit.
Best answer of the whole thread. Just speed up the HD fans a little bit. You can likely bump up the idle speed of one fan a fair amount without even hearing the difference. Or you could nudge all the fans a bit and let everything run a bit cooler. SMCFanControl is a great tool that I use often.
     
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Aug 24, 2014, 09:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by l008com View Post
Best answer of the whole thread. Just speed up the HD fans a little bit. You can likely bump up the idle speed of one fan a fair amount without even hearing the difference. Or you could nudge all the fans a bit and let everything run a bit cooler. SMCFanControl is a great tool that I use often.
As the hardware is designed, you shouldn't have to use SMCFanControl as a permanent solution. If you HAVE to, then there's a problem that needs fixing!
     
ghporter
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Aug 25, 2014, 07:25 AM
 
I agree with Esta. The first thing to do is to ensure all the vents are clean, all the fans are actually working (not just turning, but turning as fast as they're supposed to), and that there aren't any bends/kinks/tears in any of the wires (especially power wires). If that doesn't improve thermal management to the point where you don't need a fan control kludge to keep the machine running, then it's time to look for the bad component. If the PSU is getting that hot, it's the primary suspect (and should be the first part that gets closely inspected, cleaned, etc.).

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
chasg  (op)
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Sep 14, 2014, 07:48 PM
 
Hi All,

Really sorry to be silent all this time. I just became so frustrated with this @!£$! iMac that I didn't want to even look at it for a bit (hope this makes sense!). It's still very hot, and shuts down occasionally (but perhaps not as often as before? Not quite sure, it could be confirmation bias).

Lots of possible solutions above, and I really appreciate it. When I had it open last time, I blew out the fans that I could see, but perhaps I didn't do a thorough enough job. I'm going to take the screen off again, perhaps in a few weeks, and see what the fans are actually doing, and blow them out again. Dismantling it further, and replacing the PSU, is more than I'm wiling to do at the moment.

Beyond checking out the fans again, I'm going to just let the bloody thing die (or maybe I'll throw it off a cliff and kill it myself). I've had some dud Apple products in my day (Iivx, a Cube and a 20th Anniversary Mac), but this one has been the biggest pain.

Thanks again all, I really and truly do appreciate all the great advice and guidance!

Chas
     
V
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Oct 12, 2014, 10:51 PM
 
I came here to make a thread about my iMac issues but they are quite similar to yours, minus the overheating. So my late 2009 i5 27" iMac HD died some time ago and i'm using a FW 800 3 TB drive as well atm. So i was thinking about open the iMac, change HD then change my superdrive to a SSD. I'd probably get the same Samsung one you got.

I got the idea about the superdrive to SSD from Youtube. It seems quite easy.

About the HD when i entered the number in google it got me to this drive on Amazon.



So i guess this drive would work. Could i use any size similar Seagate Barracuda 32 MB drive, like a 3 TB?

Anything i should know before ordering everything?

Oh and i don't have any particular tools, i saw a video of a guy removing his iMac screen with tape so i guess i'll do that and i have a set of normal and small screwdrivers. I also have an unopened cloth that came with my HD TV so i guess i'll use that to clean the screen before putting it back in.

I know that when the new iMac will roll out this week I'll want one but honestly I manage quite well with my FW drive, i mostly use my comp for net browsing and watching Twitch, Youtube and MPEG4 on my HD TV. It's just that this drive is a bit slow and sometimes the system hangs for an awkward amount of time. Stil it's a fine computer with a beautiful display so i'd like to keep using it as long as I could.

Thanks for the advices.
( Last edited by V; Oct 12, 2014 at 11:33 PM. Reason: Spelling)
     
reader50
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Oct 12, 2014, 11:31 PM
 
Don't get another 7200.11 - that model had high failure rates. Also, $100 is quite high today for only a 1 TB drive. I'd suggest a 3-4 TB drive to get higher speeds, even if you don't need all that space. Even with an SSD boot drive, you'll find a slow media drive annoying on file copies.

And you might install an OS on the media drive as an emergency boot drive, or to try out a new OS X version before taking the dive. If so, the slow speed of a smaller drive could prove quite annoying.

I'll let others comment on brands and HD issues related to an iMac installation.
     
P
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Oct 13, 2014, 11:16 AM
 
Apple actually issued a recall for that model, because the HDD had high failure rates. I ignored it and was fine, but then mine hasn't been used heavily (I got an SSD early on).

If you replace the HDD with one not from Apple, the fans will run at max speed. This leaves you with a couple of possible solutions:

* Leave the dead drive in place, boot from an SSD in the optical bay and store the rest on the external. The easiest thing to do, really.
* Have Apple replace it. Will probably be expensive.
* Replace the drive with one of the same type and try to reflash the firmware to the Apple one. Should be possible, but I've never heard of it
* Replace the drive and short out the fan sensor wires so the fan stays at the lowest possible speed. This is problematic because that fan cools the PSU as well, and under heavy use, it might overheat
* Use SMCFanControl to manually control the HDD fan, and set it to autostart
* Use this app that I found: iMac Hard Drive Replacement Fan Noise Issue | iMac HDD Fan Control Seems reputable, and there is a demo, but $35 is not free.

EDIT: Oh, and the replacement job. Getting the glass off is actually easy. Best is windscreen lifters from an auto parts shop, but a plunger will do the trick. I can do it without tools now, but then I've done it a few times (shove the glass all the way to one side - it moves about 2 mm - and push hard on the slight overlapping glass to make the magnets release in that corner, then slide a sheet of paper under each magnet in turn to make it release).

Once the glass is off, you have to unscrew the display. It's a small Torx, T8 I think - no security screws or pentalobe or anything like that, but not terribly common either. Then comes the hard part. At the top there is a gap between display and chassis. Insert a screwdriver there and gently lever the display up until you can grab it with your fingers. Careful, it is quite heavy. Then lift the top part out slowly until you feel something stopping you. That is the first band cable, of which there are three. Holding the display with one hand, reach under and release each cable in turn. Once done, lift the display up and out.

Now it's easy for a bit. The HDD is in the center, screwed in and connected in a normal manner. The optical is along one side, in a sort of carrier. Unscrew the carrier from the chassis, then the actual optical from the carrier.

Here is where you need to be a little creative. What I did was use the 3.5" adapter plate that the SSD came with as a carrier. Fastened the SSD to adapter plate, then the adapter plate to the carrier (drilled one hole in the adapter plate) and finally the carrier back in its place.

Now for the final issue: you need to convert the SATA power cable. It comes as a slim power cable and needs to be converted to a regular one. Adapters are available - I think I found mine at Amazon - but it takes a little looking. Fortunately you have enough space because the SSD is so much smaller.

Now, re-assembly. Put the display in place at the bottom, and start angling it down into place, connecting the three cables as you go. Screw it back in place. Clean both the display and the glass from dust, put the glass back on, and you're done.
( Last edited by P; Oct 13, 2014 at 11:31 AM. )
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Mike Wuerthele
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Oct 13, 2014, 11:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Here is where you need to be a little creative. What I did was use the 3.5" adapter plate that the SSD came with as a carrier. Fastened the SSD to adapter plate, then the adapter plate to the carrier (drilled one hole in the adapter plate) and finally the carrier back in its place.
Adhesive velcro.
     
P
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Oct 13, 2014, 01:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by EstaNightshift View Post
Adhesive velcro.
This was reversible in case I had to send it to Apple. Also, adhesive, a very hot backlight and a 90C airstream from the GPU do not mix.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
V
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Oct 13, 2014, 01:33 PM
 
OWC sells DIY 3G SSD kits specifically for my iMac model. So, unless their SSD are terrible, i'm thinking getting one of those.

As for the HD OWC claims that their HD won't cause fan problems if they are from the same manufacturer. I'd then get this one and use the FW 800 as backup only. Worst case scenario I'll just use one of the software solutions P graciously provided.

So unless one of you guys have a better/cheaper solution i'll order those tomorrow and report back next week after i found the time to make the swaps.
     
P
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Oct 13, 2014, 02:25 PM
 
OWC uses 2nd gen Sandforce controllers, which aren't exactly top of the line anymore. They also have a pretty bad reliability reputation. All you really need that is special is the SATA connector converter. Please see if you can source that somewhere else first.

If OWC says that you can replace a drive with same brand, it's probably so. I initially thought that it was that way, but when I googled to confirm, it seemed all drives from late 2009 needed the special firmware.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
V
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Oct 13, 2014, 08:46 PM
 
Ordered a cheaper Samsung 840 Pro from Newegg (can), it was on discount for almost the same price as the Evo, I think i got a great deal. Hopefully i won't screw anything up! Thanks for the great info and advices. Will post follow up likely next weekend.
     
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Oct 15, 2014, 10:28 PM
 
I'm now considering opening the screen as well to take care of the ghosting. Good/bad idea? Maybe I could try with my old Core 2 Duo first.

Youtube
     
 
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