[Tiresias]

I notice a few parents visit the lounge.

I would appreciate your point of view on the following subject.

How old should your kid be before you start trying to teach them the concept of inappropriate behaviour/touching from adults, how to avoid such situations, and what to do if ever faced with such a situation?

My wife recently bought an award-winning book written for children about "good and bad touching". But it doesn't mention anything about how old is old enough to understand such matters.

My daughter is 3 and a half and pretty smart for her age. But I'm worried that she might be too young to understand what it is all about and that she might find it upsetting or confusing. My own view is that a child should first be old enough to ask questions and understand the answers to those questions. My wife thinks the sooner she learns the better, since there is no age-limit for risk.


What do you think?

(Please post appropriately or not at all).

[Zeeb]

Sadly, I think your wife is right. I don't think your child needs to "understand what its all about" though. All she has to know is how to recognize when someone is touching her in a bad way and then be able to tell you about it. There are methods for explaining that to a child without going into unnecessary detail. I'm sure the book you bought can help.

Funny you bring this up, I work at a school and am taking a course in detecting child sexual abuse next week. We also have very young children (about age 3) in the building. If this thread is still active, I'll letcha know what I learned.

[ghporter]

As soon as a child is old enough to understand "my hand is not mommy's hand" he or she should learn that some parts of his/her body are NOT for others to see or touch except for specific individuals (parents, doctor) in specific situations. Your daughter is more than old enough.

We taught our son the formal terminology for his body parts, and learned about inappropriate behavior on the part of his classmates in preschool by his use of slang terms he had NEVER heard from us. This was a major shock, but we were able to help the school find and fix a problem.

I'd go to the level of "some parts of your body are not for other people to see or touch" and then name those parts. Then stress that if someone other than the doctor (while parents are present) or parents during bath or after illness/injury even tries to see or touch those parts then both parents need to know immediately. Don't make it scary; make it as straightforward as rules for crossing a street - "hold mommy's hand tight, don't run, and we go straight across!.

[Cody Dawg]

You don't have to sexualize the discussion.

You teach your children as soon as they are old enough to understand: No one should EVER touch you ANYWHERE on your body...not with their hand, not with their fingers, not any way at all, NOT ANYWHERE...if that happens it is bad and you need to tell your daddy and mommy."

That's all it takes, period.

The truth is that no one should ever touch your child, period. Why would anyone touch your child? If it is a friend or relative they should only touch your child in your presence, period.

If you are asking this question then you may have suspicions and if you do, all I can say is trust your instinct and those suspicions. Don't put your child in a situation where he or she might be sexually exploited, that's all.

Personally, I don't trust anyone at all, period.

[BRussell]

I think the most important thing is to not shelter your children. Like ghporter said, use appropriate terms for body parts. They should learn the words as soon as they're learning words for other parts of their body. "Heads, shoulders, knees and penis, knees and penis." (Just kidding.) Oddly enough, I'm sure MacNN censored that even though every pre-schooler should use those words. [edit: wow it wasn't censored!] To make them "unspeakable" just makes them dirty and shameful and makes them less likely to talk about them.

There's also a good bit of research that shows that the "stranger danger" approach simply doesn't work. Children are innocent and trusting enough that a molester could gain their trust no matter how many stranger danger-type programs they are exposed to and no matter how paranoid they're made to feel. But the reality is that virtually all cases of child molestation are from family members rather than strangers anyway.

[Oneota]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

You don't have to sexualize the discussion.

You teach your children as soon as they are old enough to understand: No one should EVER touch you ANYWHERE on your body...not with their hand, not with their fingers, not any way at all, NOT ANYWHERE...if that happens it is bad and you need to tell your daddy and mommy."

That's all it takes, period.

The truth is that no one should ever touch your child, period. Why would anyone touch your child? If it is a friend or relative they should only touch your child in your presence, period.

If you are asking this question then you may have suspicions and if you do, all I can say is trust your instinct and those suspicions. Don't put your child in a situation where he or she might be sexually exploited, that's all.

Personally, I don't trust anyone at all, period.

I think that might be going a bit overboard - there's plenty of positive, healthy physical contact that can take place. To teach someone that they should never, under any circumstances, be touched at all is just damning your child to a life of isolation.

[Cody Dawg]

I disagree 100% about teaching children to beware of strangers.

It is better than the alternative - which is to teach nothing and take your chances.

[Cody Dawg]

Oneota:

No, it's not.

You would not allow or like some stranger to touch you, would you?

Then why should you not teach your children that it is simply not appropriate, also? There is such a thing as "body space" and that is what I've taught my children.

Again, my post above stands true: Teach them that people other than daddy or mommy touching them is not appropriate rather than ignoring it and taking your chances that your children won't run into strangers who would kidnap them or molest them.

Also, remember that a lot of molestation issues occur within families rather than without.

[Oneota]

What about the teacher who pats a kid on the shoulder for doing a god job or the other kids at recess playing? Are those inappropriate venues for physical contact? How about the security monitor/guidance counselor/custodian in the hallway who notices your child misbehaving and grasps them by the shoulders to get their attention and talk to them?

[Buckaroo]

I would say atleast before they reach 24 years old.

[Cody Dawg]

They shouldn't touch my child, period. I don't want them patting my child in any way. They can tell my child that he or she did a good job.

Here's the thing: The teachers are taught not to touch children, period, at least in our school district, because it opens them up for liability issues for themselves and the school district. I don't want a professor touching me in a college setting - even to pat me - and tell me that I'm doing "a good job." He or she can TELL me. I would be uncomfortable having a stranger, even a prof or a boss, TOUCHING me.

That is what the teachers are told. School counselors are not allowed to touch kids, period. If a child is out of control the school police come down - two together - and will physically restrain a child if necessary and that is it. No school employees are supposed to touch the kids at all.

We received a letter home about this recently from the school district explaining this policy. Everyone seems to agree with it.

This is not the friendly 50's anymore. Yes, it used to be that a pat on the head and a "Good job" kudo was welcomed, but not anymore. This is a more violent and litigious society and there are a lot of sickos slithering around, even in the school districts. Think of Debra LeFavre or Letourneau as examples of women abusing children in a school setting.

The best way to deal with it is to teach your children to keep their hands and feet to themselves and expect that everyone else - even teachers - should do the same.

It's just my perspective.

Also, I have never discussed this much as it hurts too much, but I had my child kidnapped many years ago. By whom? By a teacher. He was 3 years old and taken by a Montessorri preschool teacher. I got him back three days later flown home from another state. Interestingly enough, she actually came to my house while awaiting trial to supposedly apologize and when I freaked out and tried to call the police she attacked me. People are unstable. I moved far away afterwards, changed my life so that I was always home with my children, and live very defensively now with locked doors, security system, safe room, and guarded and gated community. I will never go through that again, ever.

So, when I seem very overly protective and careful there is a reason why. Don't think it can't happen to you or your children because it can - and does.

Edited to say that even well-meaning people can be screwed up in the head, mentally ill, etc. The woman that took our son was mentally ill, period, no doubt about it. She had done something similar with a neighbor's child a few years before and received probation. She was just not right in the head. My son was never harmed and thought he had gone on a fun trip, but the emotional scars for the rest of us run deep. I will never trust anyone, not a teacher or a neighbor, no one, again.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

You don't have to sexualize the discussion.

You teach your children as soon as they are old enough to understand: No one should EVER touch you ANYWHERE on your body...not with their hand, not with their fingers, not any way at all, NOT ANYWHERE...if that happens it is bad and you need to tell your daddy and mommy."

That goes past the realm of "good idea" and into the territory of "trying to turn a kid autistic." No physical contact with anybody, ever? Why on earth not?

[BRussell]

Have you ever seen those Dateline specials where they have an ex-cop get a young kid in his car or get into the kid's home? Molesters are good. They know how to get even smart kids to let down their guard. These are kids who were taught by their parents not to trust strangers.

You probably could get your child to the point where they wouldn't fall for these ruses. But I think in order to do so, you'd have to make them so paranoid and distrusting of people that it wouldn't be worth it to prevent the infinitesimal chance of being abducted or molested by a stranger. It would be like living in a nuclear fall-out shelter your whole life just in case there's a global nuclear war. You really have to worry about family, not strangers. And I think you have to be in a kind of denial to not suspect that something is happening if it's happening in your family.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

So, when I seem very overly protective and careful there is a reason why. Don't think it can't happen to you or your children because it can - and does.

You can't protect your children from life. Even if you keep them locked up in the house all day long, sooner or later they are going to have to live in the world. Being overprotective gives kids a slightly lower chance of some problems (it still doesn't make it impossible that the child could be kidnapped) while giving them a much higher chance of other problems.

[BRussell]

Well that's terrible Cody Dawg, and it justifies your attitude. But despite your experience, in my opinion, as the father of two young kids, the way to keep your kids safe is to 1) stay with them when they're younger, and 2) as they get older, make sure they're confident. And I believe that sheltering them too much is inconsistent with confidence.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

You can't protect your children from life. Even if you keep them locked up in the house all day long, sooner or later they are going to have to live in the world. Being overprotective gives kids a slightly lower chance of some problems (it still doesn't make it impossible that the child could be kidnapped) while giving them a much higher chance of other problems.

I agree with Cody. And even if over-cautious parenting leads to other problems (the only one I can foresee is that the child will develop an exaggerated notion of how dangerous the world is) these problems will be far easier to over-come than sexual abuse. It is far, far better to err on the side of caution.

[Cody Dawg]

Actually, my kids live a fairly normal life.

But they have parameters about what someone bigger and larger has insofar as their physical bodies goes.

They attend public schools and they ride their bicycles around the neighborhood, etc.

But I don't want strangers touching them, period. It's creepy.

Telling your kids that strangers shouldn't touch them, not ever, is not sheltering them. It's being prudent and careful. It's part of our society today.

I think a lot of people posting in this thread don't have children, or if they do, they're forgetting how vulnerable a 3 to 7 year old child or children can be.

ADAM WALSH

The Adam Walsh Story

On July 27, 1981, 6-year-old Adam Walsh and his mother Revé went to a department store about a mile away from their home to shop for lamps. When they entered the store Adam saw several children playing video games on a television monitor and asked if he could stay to play. His mother let him stay and went to the lamp department, which was about 75 feet away. Because the lamp she wanted was not in stock she returned rather quickly, less than 10 minutes later, but couldn’t find Adam. After looking for Adam on her own for two hours, someone finally called the local police department.

Two weeks later, after one of the most intensive searches in Florida history, his severed head was found in a Vero Beach canal, 100 miles from where he was last seen.

The rest of his body was never found. No one has ever been convicted of the crime.

But it was a crime that would change the nation.

Few parents would ever again leave their kids alone. Children were fingerprinted, laws were changed. Finding lost children took on a new urgency, and police mobilized more swiftly.

''It remains the most horrific crime I have ever seen in my 30-plus professional years,'' said State Attorney Bruce Colton of Indian River County, who in 1981 was an assistant state attorney in Vero Beach.

JIMMY RYCE

From Claudine Ryce speaking to a class of children:

I do not want any of you kids to be killed by a sexual predator as my 9-year-old son Jimmy was. I know Jimmy did not want to die, that he had a lot he still wanted to do.

I have to tell you the truth though: there will always be bad people roaming around looking for children to hurt. The really scary thing is that these demons look just like your parents and your parents’ friends. They can be someone you know, someone you thought you could trust--your uncle or your father’s boss.

But you are not helpless. You can learn to recognize who sexual predators are by what they ask you to do. You can learn how to get away from them.

Read as many of the stories in Jimmy Ryce's Great Escape Maneuvers/ GEMs program as you can. Discuss them with your parents and friends. Ask yourself what acts by the adult could be those of a sexual predator and which of the Great Escape Maneuvers you think would have helped the kid get away from the predator.

Insist your school hold predator drills. Act out the different stories in Jimmy Ryce's GEMs program. Take turns playing the kid. Let an adult play the predator (you do not want to play a bad person). The more you practice what to do, the more likely it is you will save yourself if a real predator ever tries to get you.

I had told Jimmy not to get in the car with anyone unless I told him that day it was OK for him to ride with that person. So, neighbors told me Jimmy had refused rides with them. I had told Jimmy to step back away from any car if a car stopped to ask directions, as it is, at best, inappropriate behavior for an adult to ask a child directions. After all, it could be someone trying to lure him close enough to the car to grab him.

I forgot to tell Jimmy what to do if someone pointed a gun at him and said “get in the car or I will kill you.” I believe Jimmy would be alive today, if he had known the safest thing to do is to turn and run despite the threat. Most predators are not going to risk getting caught by hurting you before they have their way with you. Sexual predators do not get their kicks by driving by and shooting you.

One little girl, in Marathon, Florida, is alive today, because she heard what happened to Jimmy and learned what Jimmy should have done. She told me “two men tried to get me in a car last week, but I turned and ran, like Jimmy should have.”

The more of Jimmy Ryce's Great Escape Maneuvers/GEMs you know, the more likely it is you will remember one that will work for you if a predator approaches you. Let me know if you have an idea for another Great Escape Maneuver or a GEM saves you!

Sidenote: The Jimmy Ryce Act is named for the nine-year-old who, in 1995, stepped off a school bus and disappeared for months. Jimmy’s backpack was later spotted in the trailer of Juan Chavez, a ranch hand. Chavez led authorities to Jimmy’s body. The boy had been raped, murdered and dismembered.

All I can say is talk to your children, period, because you love them more than keeping quiet. Claudine Ryce has the right perspective: There are evil and mentally ill people out there, right now, looking for more kids to victimize...including yours if given the opportunity.

If someone ever wanted to PM me and want me to call them I would and I could give them a perspective that they would never forget. What I went through was horrific. I thought my little boy was dead, being sexually tortured, physically tortured, you name it. I didn't know until after the FBI called and said that he was in a safe location in another state that he was alive. I spent the first 24 hours in the hospital, sedated, because I couldn't handle the fact that he was gone. No one can ever know, unless they go through it themselves, what it feels like. Now I am a much more defensive person - to the point where we have a gun and would defend ourselves violently - whereas before I was not. I changed and I changed a lot and I have a different attitude. Just imagine having your little toddler or boy or girl taken from you and not knowing what someone is doing to them. It is horrible. And that is why I am sickened by the attitude that we should forgive people through prison rehabilitation, "let them do their time," and let them out again. Jimmy Ryce and other children would still be alive if these people were locked up forever.

[Chuckit]

Being overprotective doesn't necessarily stop sexual abuse. It often just makes it easier for people to abuse the kid when he's older and doesn't have mommy there to coddle him. And any problems are not necessarily easier to overcome than sexual abuse. Emotional scars are hard to erase no matter where they come from — whether it's sexual abuse or a mother who keeps her children locked in the basement. Teaching children to be paranoid and fearful is trading a small degree of danger early in life for a much higher chance of misery in the long run. It's a bad deal.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I think a lot of people posting in this thread don't have children, or if they do, they're forgetting how vulnerable a 3 to 7 year old child or children can be.

I think it's possible you don't know what it's like to be intentionally cut off from the world as child.

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

ADAM WALSH

Great example. Would it have helped if his mother had taught him to freak out at normal human contact? No! He was kidnapped and chopped up. A teacher patting him on the back was the least of his worries.

[Cody Dawg]

Chuckit: You have your ideas and I have mine. You are not me. You have not experienced in your life what I have in mine. If you want to let your children be the way that they are, go ahead.

I'm merely telling people to educate their children that strangers/people should not touch them. It is worth 5 minutes of my time to say the following: People and strangers don't touch daddy or mommy so they shouldn't touch them either. If they do they should let daddy or mommy know about it. They should never get into a car with anyone other than daddy or mommy, not even if it is a friend of daddy or mommy's. They should never get into ANY car other than our car, even if it looks like a police car. If someone stops to talk to them they should not talk back but should right away come home. And if someone tries to get them to get into their car they should run home as fast as they are able to and if someone ever tries to grab them then they should yell and run away.

That is what I teach my children. You teach your children nothing or what you want. I will teach my children how I see fit. That is the beauty of this country: You do what you want to. I am glad for you that your children are carefree and happy. My children don't have that luxury of thinking the world is a perfect place because, yes, I am too insecure to believe that I should let my children believe that the world is perfect when I know that it is not.

Just two days ago a very nice young family was gunned down on the side of the Florida turnpike about 30 minutes from where we live. A father, a mother, and two little boys, 3 and 4. The mother was found in a fetal position with her arms around her babies trying to protect them from being shot. They were all massacred and there is no suspect yet. Why would someone kill a nice family? The entire family? See, to me the world is not a safe place. I am so very thankful that I live next door to the chief of police on one side, an attorney on the other, a detective on the side of him, etc. I feel safer. Not 100%, but safer. All I can do is be careful and watchful and vigilant. We work and budget and have chosen to live where we do so that we feel better about raising our children. We may not take fancy vacations, but I know that my children are a little safer where we live in the community we have chosen.

If I lived in the country in a rural area on a big piece of property I would probably be more relaxed about these things. But, I don't. I live in an area where I read about murders on a daily basis up and down the east coast of Florida. It's sad and frightening.

[Eriamjh]

Being touched on the shoulder or patted is not sexual abuse.

[Cody Dawg]

No, it's not. Unless it's done by a pedophile or a person who secretly downloads child porn.

You just never know what is what these days.

[medicineman]

Originally Posted by BRussell

I think the most important thing is to not shelter your children. Like ghporter said, use appropriate terms for body parts. They should learn the words as soon as they're learning words for other parts of their body. "Heads, shoulders, knees and penis, knees and penis." (Just kidding.) Oddly enough, I'm sure MacNN censored that even though every pre-schooler should use those words. [edit: wow it wasn't censored!] To make them "unspeakable" just makes them dirty and shameful and makes them less likely to talk about them.

There's also a good bit of research that shows that the "stranger danger" approach simply doesn't work. Children are innocent and trusting enough that a molester could gain their trust no matter how many stranger danger-type programs they are exposed to and no matter how paranoid they're made to feel. But the reality is that virtually all cases of child molestation are from family members rather than strangers anyway.

I have to agree with all of this. I lament the loss of childhood and their innocense. Gone are the days when a group of neighborhood kids would play together outside. They would watch out for one another. Leaders were formed and responsibility learned. And moms were just about behind every door for emergencies. The neighborhood watched out for themselves, more or less. But this is fodder for a whole new topic.

[Cody Dawg]

My neighborhood is full of kids. I can look outside at any time and they are out there bicycling, walking around the little lake, playing soccer in the field next to the lake. They're out there right now. There is a huge nature preserve behind our house (the lake is in front of the house) and there are trails throughout it and they can walk and explore in there. But, the entire community is fenced and gated so it's not open, per se, to the public. It's a controlled environment in that sense. It's the best that we feel we can do and still feel safe.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by medicineman

I have to agree with all of this. I lament the loss of childhood and their innocense. Gone are the days when a group of neighborhood kids would play together outside. They would watch out for one another. Leaders were formed and responsibility learned. And moms were just about behind every door for emergencies. The neighborhood watched out for themselves, more or less. But this is fodder for a whole new topic.

My neighborhood is still like this for the most part.

But I know what you mean. Sad.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

But, I don't. I live in an area where I read about murders on a daily basis up and down the east coast of Florida. It's sad and frightening.

Did you know that right now we in the US are at an all-time low in crime in its recorded history? At the same time crime started dropping, about 15 years ago, local news was really ramping up its coverage of crime. In the last several years, national news started doing the same, especially with crimes involving children.

You've had a terrible experience and I don't blame you for feeling the way you do. But I think it's important to point out the above facts.

[andi*pandi]

there is a discussion to have about privacy. And private parts that are only for going potty, getting clean, etc. We started talking about that as soon as he was 2.

you don't want to freak out a child so that he won't let daycare or a friend babysitting change a diaper. You don't your school to be one of those crazy places where they send a 5yr old home for giving another 5yr old a hug.

and I think it's ridiculous that teachers can't touch students--in a way, that's accusing them in advance of being molesters. That we live in a litigous society doesn't make it right--it is another symptom of what is wrong.

I worry more about losing him in public. He's very fast. We are trying VERY hard to teach him to stay close to us for his own safety. I want my child close and supervised.

[CleoW]

I have a two year old, and this is what I tell him. I tell him that he has private parts, and that they are his, and nobody should touch them. I kind of do a chant, pointing to the area between my legs, and saying, Mine, nobody touch it! I've been doing this ever since he was about one and half, close to two. He loves it, and repeats after me. There's nothing scary in this. I also emphasize to him that if anybody hurts him or does something that makes him scared, he should always tell me, because I love him no matter what, and I'm here to protect him.

The complicated conversations about 'good' and 'bad' touching can wait until they are old enough to understand. At three, I think those ideas are just too complex for your son, and he'll be confused.

[CleoW]

I also think that since sexual abuse by a friend/relative/teacher is more common than stranger abduction, you should prioritize telling your child about 'private parts' and emphasize that they can tell you if someone is doing something to them that makes them uncomfortable. Simply telling children that strangers should not touch them would not be helpful in most instances of sexual abuse.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by Eriamjh

Being touched on the shoulder or patted is not sexual abuse.

I was born with genitalia on my shoulder.


Anyway, I find this thread depressing. Of course I remember being tuaght as a kid not to accept a ride even from family friends unless they knew the 'code word' since most kidnapping were done by someone the family knows.

[Railroader]

My daughter is turning 3 next week and I don't feel as if she is ready for the appropriate/innappropriate talk. Like ghporter, we use correct anatomical terms and a few vague terms as well such as "girl parts". I don't know when she'll be ready, but the moment she is I will not hesitate to explain to her what is correct touching and what is wrong.

Along with ghporter, I agree with what zeeb, BRussell*, Chuckit*, and Eriamjh have to say on this.

Although I abhor what Codydawg went through, I think overall she is a reactionary and is over reacting. She tends to read things in the news and believe them for gospel. I would not take her advice in this regard. She lives in a gated community. She lives in fear. Her sense of reality is twisted. Would you want that for your family?

Touching is not 100% all bad. My daughter is in preschool and hugged her teachers on the first day. It touched my heart to see her open up so quickly to people. I grew up in a very non-touchy home. To this day I can only tell you of two instance where I have hugged my dad. We rarely even shake hands. I hate that. We are great friends and talk almost everyday, but I feel we are missing out on something. I do NOT want my family to be like that. Sometimes my daughter now says "Daddy, I need a hug and so does Teddy**". Even if I have hugged her 1 minute ago I run over to her and hug her again and her brother too.

We need to love children, not shelter them.

Also, it's good to have communications with your neighbors both near and far. Let them know you want them to report and wrong doings by, or to, your child ASAP. Let them know you are always watching out for strangers and that they should do the same. But be casual about it. No one likes an obsessed individual.




*I'll bet you guys never thought you'd hear that eh?

**Names changed to protect the innocent

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Kevin

My neighborhood is still like this for the most part.

But I know what you mean. Sad.

Mine too.

We have one single registered sex offender [against children] in the entire city. He can't leave the house without 100% scrutiny in EVERYTHING he does. He's been "learned" that what he did was wrong and if he does it again it will be the last thing he does.

To live in fear is to not live.

[medicineman]

Everyone comes from different backgrounds and experiences. We come from a family of huggers. Three generations of us greet with hugs and kisses. When all of us first cousins come together with thier children and grandchildren, there are over 100 of us. That makes for a lot of hugs and kisses. This is also a learning process for what is appropiate. Kids learn fast. The key, as CleoW pointed out, is for the child to be able to come you without recrimination.

[CleoW]

Oh God, I, too, remember the 'code word'! My mom raised me to be very afraid of abduction. She suffered from clinical depression and was a paranoiac. She's better now, but back then, she scared the crap out of my sister and I. I would visit my Dad on weekends, and be perpetually afraid that he was going to take me. When strangers would smile and say hello to me, I'd freeze and my eyes would get big; people thought something was wrong with me.

[medicineman]

[QUOTE=Railroader]My daughter is turning 3 next week and I don't feel as if she is ready for the appropriate/innappropriate talk. Like ghporter, we use correct anatomical terms and a few vague terms as well such as "girl parts". I don't know when she'll be ready, but the moment she is I will not hesitate to explain to her what is correct touching and what is wrong.

Along with ghporter, I agree with what zeeb, BRussell*, Chuckit*, and Eriamjh have to say on this.

Although I abhor what Codydawg went through, I think overall she is a reactionary and is over reacting. She tends to read things in the news and believe them for gospel. I would not take her advice in this regard. She lives in a gated community. She lives in fear. Her sense of reality is twisted. Would you want that for your family?

Touching is not 100% all bad. My daughter is in preschool and hugged her teachers on the first day. It touched my heart to see her open up so quickly to people. I grew up in a very non-touchy home. To this day I can only tell you of two instance where I have hugged my dad. We rarely even shake hands. I hate that. We are great friends and talk almost everyday, but I feel we are missing out on something. I do NOT want my family to be like that. Sometimes my daughter now says "Daddy, I need a hug and so does Teddy**". Even if I have hugged her 1 minute ago I run over to her and hug her again and her brother too.

We need to love children, not shelter them.

Also, it's good to have communications with your neighbors both near and far. Let them know you want them to report and wrong doings by, or to, your child ASAP. Let them know you are always watching out for strangers and that they should do the same. But be casual about it. No one likes an obsessed individual.




*I'll bet you guys never thought you'd hear that eh?

**Names changed to protect the innocent [/QUOTE

Man, I am so sorry to hear about you and your dad. Mine died when I was seventeen. I wish I had the chance to hug him more. My kids are in their 40's and we still hug when meeting. There is still time for you, though. Next time you meet, don't wait for him. Just give him a great big hug, and whisper in his ear, 'I love you, dad'. You'll make his day, and perhaps your relationship will change.

[CleoW]

Originally Posted by Railroader

My daughter is turning 3 next week and I don't feel as if she is ready for the appropriate/innappropriate talk. Like ghporter, we use correct anatomical terms and a few vague terms as well such as "girl parts". I don't know when she'll be ready, but the moment she is I will not hesitate to explain to her what is correct touching and what is wrong.

I have to respectfully disagree with your opinion that at three, your daughter is too young. Conversation just has to be tailored to meeet her age level. At three she can understand that her private parts belong to her, and nobody should be touching them except mommy and daddy when they are washing her. Sexual abuse happens to children at this age, and no child should be unprepared. I definitely agree that long, complicated discourse on 'appropriate' and 'inappropriate' touching can be confusing and scary for a child that age, but simple instruction can only help.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by CleoW

I have to respectfully disagree with your opinion that at three, your daughter is too young. Conversation just has to be tailored to meeet her age level. At three she can understand that her private parts belong to her, and nobody should be touching them except mommy and daddy when they are washing her. Sexual abuse happens to children at this age, and no child should be unprepared. I definitely agree that long, complicated discourse on 'appropriate' and 'inappropriate' touching can be confusing and scary for a child that age, but simple instruction can only help.

What about when nana, papa, grandma, grandpa, or one of many trusted friends babysit and give my children their baths?

Sexual abuse happens because of evil people. It doesn't happen because I didn't explain to my children that when someone kidnaps them that the evil person isn't supposed to be touching them. They're not going to have any control anyway, why scare them with the idea?

The only way to totally 100% prevent child abuse is to never let your child out of your sight ever. But then you're going to have other issues. I know people like this. Their children don't trust anyone and still live at home at 30 years of age.

[CleoW]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Sexual abuse happens because of evil people. It doesn't happen because I didn't explain to my children that when someone kidnaps them that the evil person isn't supposed to be touching them. They're not going to have any control anyway, why scare them with the idea?

Good point. That's why I emphasize, on the tail end of my post, that you should tell children to tell you if someone is doing something to them that makes them feel uncomfortable, so that they feel comfortable telling you, and stop repeat episodes.

I understand your concern about creating fear, but it's all in the style and delivery that makes the difference in possible fear created. My son knows that no one is supposed to touch his privates, just like he knows he is not supposed to touch knives, bother Grandma's china, or let his older cousin take his toys. He knows if someone does something to him that is inappropriate, whether it be touching his privates, taking his toys, or hitting him, he can and should tell me. No need for fear.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by medicineman

Man, I am so sorry to hear about you and your dad. Mine died when I was seventeen. I wish I had the chance to hug him more. My kids are in their 40's and we still hug when meeting. There is still time for you, though. Next time you meet, don't wait for him. Just give him a great big hug, and whisper in his ear, 'I love you, dad'. You'll make his day, and perhaps your relationship will change.

You know, every year I say that exact same thing to my self and it never happens. And when I read stories about people who have lost their dad I always think the same thing. But I never do it.

I'll keep trying.

Fortunately, my relationship with my mom is exactly the opposite. She kisses me and hugs me at every meeting and tells me she loves me every time we talk (4-5 times a day). My parents are very happily married.

But this is fodder for another thread.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by CleoW

Good point. That's why I emphasize, on the tail end of my post, that you should tell children to tell you if someone is doing something to them that makes them feel uncomfortable, so that they feel comfortable telling you, and stop repeat episodes.

I understand your concern about creating fear, but it's all in the style and delivery that makes the difference in possible fear created. My son knows that no one is supposed to touch his privates, just like he knows he is not supposed to touch knives, bother Grandma's china, or let his older cousin take his toys. He knows if someone does something to him that is inappropriate, whether it be touching his privates, taking his toys, or hitting him, he can and should tell me. No need for fear.

That's understandable. Thanks for your your honesty.

I'll consider what you've said.

[Cody Dawg]

Railroader:

Have your kid kidnapped and see how "twisted" YOU become.

You have no idea...none whatsoever.

[Cadaver]

Sexual Harassment Panda!

Anyone see South Park?

[Cody Dawg]

No. Tell us about it?

Or is there a link to the episode online?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Railroader:

Have your kid kidnapped and see how "twisted" YOU become.

You have no idea...none whatsoever.

The odds of that happening are slim.

But I am glad you qualified your fear.

I sympathize with you in what happened to you, but you have to understand your situation is an extreme exception to the rule. You do realize that molesters and kidnappers live in gated communities as well don't you?

[KeriVit]

My friend is a survivor of sexual abuse by a family member and offers this advice:

3 or 4 is a bit young to draw the boundaries of touching as it can harm or help depending on how the conversation grows. A better way to approach the subject at this tender age is to discuss secrets.

Teach your child early that "no secret is a good secret." The secret is the predator's means of control. Take away the control and discuss secrets and what adults and children talk about and it is better. Speak to the child at their level.

Making them untouchable is impossible and the notion to do such will not help them in the long run.

[Kevin]

Just tell them to stay away from this guy

[Cody Dawg]

I think KeriVit has pointed out something essential: Children should not keep secrets from parents.



Of course, very young children probably cannot conceptualize what a secret is, exactly, but it is an excellent point to make with them as they get a little bit older.

Railroader: Yes, what happened to me/us was not that common...or was it?

There are 33,908 involuntary child abductions annually (non-family) and more than 350,000 abductions involving family.

[davesimondotcom]

Wow, this thread actually makes me feel better about the fact that we don't/can't have kids...

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Railroader: Yes, what happened to me/us was not that common...or was it?

There are 33,908 involuntary child abductions annually (non-family) and more than 350,000 abductions involving family.

Extremely uncommon:http://www.eyesofamerica.net/US_abdu...statistics.htm

ccording to the FBI's statistics of kidnapping children in America, strangers kidnap about 300 children every year.

C'mon CD, we can post conflicting statistics all day from various web sites.

[Big Mac]

I have to agree with those who have said Cody has taken this subject to unusual extremes. Cody's comments make me think of Ralph Wiggum's reaction to Marge when she touched him on the shoulder as a form of praise. It's good to be a bit paranoid when it comes to protecting children, but take it too far and the kids will be maladjusted, perhaps permanently, as they go through life. Telling kids that no one can touch them AT ALL will make them fearful of others and likely leave them without the capacity to form normal relationships with others. A child sheltered like that is the type who will get mocked as weird by his or her peers. Childrern can be merciless to those who do not conform to general expectations, and social outcasts do not lead happy lives. JMO.