[ghporter]

Rob, assuming that your techniques (yours and those from the web site you linked to) are the most effective at saving every drop of fuel is a fallacy. Your 20 year old hardware is less precise than 2-3 year old hardware; even the most obsessively tuned mod chip can't make up for that. How old are your rings? How old are your injectors? Ever replaced the injector guts? Just exactly what "aero mods" have you made, and have you wind tunnel tested them? Seen any REAL data on how aerodynamic a Mini is?

The base 2010 Mini model is rated at 28 City, 37 Highway by the EPA. While the newest EPA rating system is supposed to be more in tune with "real world" driving, it's still possible to improve on a car's rated mileage with driving strategies and behaviors. It is certainly not unreasonable to believe that a new Mini could get at least 40 MPG without too much effort. A real stickler for careful driving who uses gas without ethanol added (ethanol has 3% less energy density than plain gasoline) should be able to push up near 50 MPG. An extreme case, no doubt, but definitely plausible. Stating your opinion that this isn't possible is one thing. Stating flatly that it is not possible without some sort of hard evidence to back it up is entirely different. The EPA says that, of the class of "minicompact" cars is dominated by the Mini, with the base model with a manual transmission getting the 28/37 I mentioned above, and both the automatic and automatic convertible getting 25/33. Not too shabby, though the manual Mini is only a tiny bit more efficient than the Civic with an automatic...(25/36) Of course all these numbers are based on the 2010 models.

For comparison, the "more optimistic" numbers for the '91 Civic are 33/37 for the 4-speed manual and 31/35 for the 5-speed manual (regardless of whether it's a hatch or 4-door).

Data Source: EPA.gov

Further, Laminar is correct in stating that hypermiling is NOT about safe driving.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Good job.

That has to be an error, how is a nearly new 135i for sale for less than half the price of a new one?

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

VW announced in 2008 that they would build a plant in Tennessee. Their only other North American plant is indeed in Mexico, but it's not really clear if all US Volkswagen cars come from Mexico. Interestingly, VW America had been headquartered in Troy, Michigan, then Auburn Hills, Michigan. They moved in 2007 to Herndon, Virginia. Gotta wonder why they moved away from the headquarters area of the major US auto makers to Virginia...

Anyway, as far as I can tell, the Crowley, Oxfordshire, UK plant is THE Mini plant.

You can look on the window sticker and find out where the content is from. Volkswagen's Mexico plant makes primarily engines and transmissions (2.0T, 2.5L, and DSG I know for sure) and a small (comparatively) amount of Jettas and Golfs and GTIs. The rest are made in China, South Africa, India, and Russia. The US only receives South African and Mexican built Jettas and Golfs and GTIs. As for the Passat, it's made in Germany and India.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

You can look on the window sticker and find out where the content is from. Volkswagen's Mexico plant makes primarily engines and transmissions (2.0T, 2.5L, and DSG I know for sure) and a small (comparatively) amount of Jettas and Golfs and GTIs. The rest are made in China, South Africa, India, and Russia. The US only receives South African and Mexican built Jettas and Golfs and GTIs. As for the Passat, it's made in Germany and India.

I haven't seen a VW with a window sticker in a long time-I'm not car shopping. But the sticker is true for all cars. I don't know what the 2010s are like, but when I bought my Ohio-built Civic in 2007, it had fractionally more US content than a Michigan-built Mustang... But we were discussing final assembly locations, or at least that's what I was responding to.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

Doesn't it use more fuel to restart the engine than one would save by turning it off downhill? Seems more efficient to just take the foot off the accelerator to coast.

That used to be true with old carbureted engines, but my understanding is that modern fuel-injected engines don't use nearly as much fuel to start up. That's why hybrids like the Prius can do this also.

(Not that I'm advocating this as safe practice on a vehicle not designed for it.)

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Rob, assuming that your techniques (yours and those from the web site you linked to) are the most effective at saving every drop of fuel is a fallacy.

Where did he say that was the point?

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I haven't seen a VW with a window sticker in a long time-I'm not car shopping. But the sticker is true for all cars. I don't know what the 2010s are like, but when I bought my Ohio-built Civic in 2007, it had fractionally more US content than a Michigan-built Mustang... But we were discussing final assembly locations, or at least that's what I was responding to.

Sure, not all of them are as detailed. Most are like Ford's.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

Doesn't it use more fuel to restart the engine than one would save by turning it off downhill? Seems more efficient to just take the foot off the accelerator to coast.

No. When I have to wait at a train signal, I shut off the engine. Start-stop technology is also heading this way.

Start-stop tech might be in your next new car... are you ready? [w/poll] — Autoblog

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

That used to be true with old carbureted engines, but my understanding is that modern fuel-injected engines don't use nearly as much fuel to start up. That's why hybrids like the Prius can do this also.

(Not that I'm advocating this as safe practice on a vehicle not designed for it.)

He's just popping the clutch while still rolling. It uses no extra fuel.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

He's just popping the clutch while still rolling. It uses no extra fuel.

No, he's actually turning his car off!!!

Originally Posted by downinflames68 

Dude. This may surprise you but i am a hypermiler. My commuter is a 91 civic with a bazillion miles that's been slightly aero modded. By honing my driving techniques I've gotten progressively better mileage. I shut my engine off on downhills, I draft behind larger vehicles, etc etc.

...

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

No, he's actually turning his car off!!!

I know. I'm saying that he's popping the clutch to restart the car. It uses no extra fuel. Starting an engine with the starter does use more fuel than normal running, though.

[Railroader]

Oh.

Still, nothing could possibly go wrong with what he's doing. Ever.

[imitchellg5]

I tried it once before. Never again.

[Cold Warrior]

Loss of power steering and power brakes is serious, especially if those things are needed at a moment's notice (deer, people, surface conditions). I'll gladly pay an extra $2/mo in gas to keep my engine on, especially if it prevents me from having to explain to the insurance company why I didn't stop in time.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

That has to be an error, how is a nearly new 135i for sale for less than half the price of a new one?

Because it's an automatic, and as we've all learned, automatics have zero value to car enthusiasts, and it would seem that these are the only people that can legally buy a used vehicle these days. Consequently, the price has been cut to less than half of the original sticker price to try and attract an "enthusiast" with need of a "transportation appliance" for those rare occasions he needs to get where he's going, and doesn't care if he looks cool to other enthusiasts when his rolling penis enhancement is in the shop. It's no great mystery, try and keep up!

[imitchellg5]

Ha ha ha I seriously can't stop laughing.

[brassplayersrock²]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

Because it's an automatic, and as we've all learned, automatics have zero value to car enthusiasts, and it would seem that these are the only people that can legally buy a used vehicle these days. Consequently, the price has been cut to less than half of the original sticker price to try and attract an "enthusiast" with need of a "transportation appliance" for those rare occasions he needs to get where he's going, and doesn't care if he looks cool to other enthusiasts when his rolling penis enhancement is in the shop. It's no great mystery, try and keep up!

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Ha ha ha I seriously can't stop laughing.

I can’t see why.

[imitchellg5]

That was a certain man's argument for a manual in a certain other thread.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

Because it's an automatic, and as we've all learned, automatics have zero value to car enthusiasts, and it would seem that these are the only people that can legally buy a used vehicle these days. Consequently, the price has been cut to less than half of the original sticker price to try and attract an "enthusiast" with need of a "transportation appliance" for those rare occasions he needs to get where he's going, and doesn't care if he looks cool to other enthusiasts when his rolling penis enhancement is in the shop. It's no great mystery, try and keep up!

[Laminar]

Good job. All of you.

[downinflames68]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

No, he's actually turning his car off!!!

[downinflames68]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Rob, assuming that your techniques (yours and those from the web site you linked to) are the most effective at saving every drop of fuel is a fallacy. Your 20 year old hardware is less precise than 2-3 year old hardware; even the most obsessively tuned mod chip can't make up for that. How old are your rings? How old are your injectors? Ever replaced the injector guts? Just exactly what "aero mods" have you made, and have you wind tunnel tested them? Seen any REAL data on how aerodynamic a Mini is?

The base 2010 Mini model is rated at 28 City, 37 Highway by the EPA. While the newest EPA rating system is supposed to be more in tune with "real world" driving, it's still possible to improve on a car's rated mileage with driving strategies and behaviors. It is certainly not unreasonable to believe that a new Mini could get at least 40 MPG without too much effort. A real stickler for careful driving who uses gas without ethanol added (ethanol has 3% less energy density than plain gasoline) should be able to push up near 50 MPG. An extreme case, no doubt, but definitely plausible. Stating your opinion that this isn't possible is one thing. Stating flatly that it is not possible without some sort of hard evidence to back it up is entirely different. The EPA says that, of the class of "minicompact" cars is dominated by the Mini, with the base model with a manual transmission getting the 28/37 I mentioned above, and both the automatic and automatic convertible getting 25/33. Not too shabby, though the manual Mini is only a tiny bit more efficient than the Civic with an automatic...(25/36) Of course all these numbers are based on the 2010 models.

For comparison, the "more optimistic" numbers for the '91 Civic are 33/37 for the 4-speed manual and 31/35 for the 5-speed manual (regardless of whether it's a hatch or 4-door).

Data Source: EPA.gov

Further, Laminar is correct in stating that hypermiling is NOT about safe driving.

Not seeing 60mpg. At all. It doesn't have the body. Not size, but shape.

[downinflames68]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Yes, I gathered all that. It's happened to me when the engine cut out due to a defect.

It seems completely - pardon me - idiotic to do this voluntarily. Might as well blindfold yourself and remove your seatbelt - go all the way if your going to willfully eliminate safety margins. Brakes? Power steering? My granddad had none of that, and spent ten years of his life with a silver watch up his arse, so there!

It's fine. You still have powerbrakes for like 5 seconds of braking. And once you don't have power brakes, you still have brakes. If you've never driven a car without power brakes before, I can see why you'd think it was dangerous. Lots of people do this, on long downhills, to save gas. You can ask about it over at ecomodder if you want.

[downinflames68]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

Because it's an automatic, and as we've all learned, automatics have zero value to car enthusiasts, and it would seem that these are the only people that can legally buy a used vehicle these days. Consequently, the price has been cut to less than half of the original sticker price to try and attract an "enthusiast" with need of a "transportation appliance" for those rare occasions he needs to get where he's going, and doesn't care if he looks cool to other enthusiasts when his rolling penis enhancement is in the shop. It's no great mystery, try and keep up!

Probably. Everybody I know with a 1 series bought the manual. Not the automatic.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by downinflames68 

So, you're not turning the car off while it is on motion?

Originally Posted by downinflames68 

If it's a big downhill, you click the engine off til the RPMs drop to zero. Then put the key back to run, and shift into nuetral. Let you foot off the clutch, and coast. By putting the key back to run, it prevents the steering column from locking. You do lose power steering*, but that isn't a big deal at high speed, and you still have power brakes due to the pressure in the booster, but it only lasts for a few seconds of braking action. **Once you're at the bottom of the hill, put into whatever gear you want, and let out the clutch.

* There must not be any wild animals where you live. No need to turn in an emergency and need the power steering assist.

** If the vehicle is rolling along at 45mph can I put it in 1st and pop the clutch?

[Railroader]

Ugh. I feel stupider already.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by downinflames68 

It's fine. You still have powerbrakes for like 5 seconds of braking.

Smiling and nodding.

[downinflames68]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

So, you're not turning the car off while it is on motion?


* There must not be any wild animals where you live. No need to turn in an emergency and need the power steering assist.

** If the vehicle is rolling along at 45mph can I put it in 1st and pop the clutch?

You are totally clueless about pop starting a car. Congrats.

[Phileas]

Loss of power braking and steering is a surprisingly small deal if you're prepared for it. I've owned a fair number of old cars, including old trucks, that had no power assist of any kind. You just get used to the extra effort, but driving them is not inherently more dangerous.

You pop start a car with the appropriate gear, simple as that.

The danger with coasting is not so much loss of power assist, it's loss of power if you need to get out of a situation quickly.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Phileas 

Loss of power braking and steering is a surprisingly small deal if you're prepared for it. I've owned a fair number of old cars, including old trucks, that had no power assist of any kind. You just get used to the extra effort, but driving them is not inherently more dangerous.

Driving a car which has steering geometry set up for power assist without that power assist available is a different ballgame than driving a car which was designed for no power assist to start with.

[Doofy]

MINI - MINI One - Facts & Figures

Fuel consumption mpg - Manual (extra-urban)¹: 64.2

MINI - MINI Cooper - Facts & Figures

Fuel consumption mpg - Manual (extra-urban)¹: 61.4

Of course, we have proper man-sized gallons over here, not those little girlie things you have. But the figures are there.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by downinflames68 

Not seeing 60mpg. At all. It doesn't have the body. Not size, but shape.

As I said, just because it's not obvious to you doesn't mean that the Mini's body isn't more aerodynamic than you assume. Also as I said, with more advanced, more precise mechanicals, especially in terms of injectors, a newer engine can be much more fuel conservative than even a very well tuned and monitored older engine. Finally, I did mention getting near 60MPG being "an extreme case," didn't I? But I can "see" getting within sight of 50MPG with a new, well tuned and carefully driven Mini that's almost totally a highway-only car. Maybe not a fun way to drive it, but possible.

[Phileas]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Driving a car which has steering geometry set up for power assist without that power assist available is a different ballgame than driving a car which was designed for no power assist to start with.

True that. Those brake pedals in an old Landy are that long for a reason.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

But I can "see" getting within sight of 50MPG with a new, well tuned and carefully driven Mini that's almost totally a highway-only car. Maybe not a fun way to drive it, but possible.

Cars get their worst gas mileage when new.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Cars get their worst gas mileage when new.

When BRAND new. After engine break in, new cars tend to get pretty close to their "typical" mileage, though this does improve in small increments over the first several thousand miles of use. Most manufacturers seem to use a "break in" oil in new engines (I know Honda does), which speeds seating of rings and engine break in in general.

My post was aimed more at "recent model" new versus "just off the lot" new.

[OreoCookie]

@Rob
Things like drafting behind larger vehicles and turning off your engine is dangerous since you lose many assistants that you normally have at your disposal. You endanger yourself and others when you do that.

I saw a Mythbusters episode on drafting once. Now I know their pseudo-science is not rock solid, but it was pretty clear that to draft close enough to another vehicle to see the fuel economy benefit of drafting, you have to tailgate at an extremely close and dangerous distance.

[OreoCookie]

Well, their science is mostly ok.
That tailgating saves fuel is not a mystery: it reduces drag. If everything were computer-controlled, driving in the draft of another car is fine. But with humans involved from A to Z, it's just nuts. Some people panic and do stupid things when they're being tailgated. Usually the person behind you wants you out of the way rather than save fuel.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by downinflames68 

You are totally clueless about pop starting a car.

What makes you think that? Quite the contrary, I called you out for giving bad information to those who might be clueless.

Originally Posted by downinflames68 

Congrats.

?!??!?!

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Usually it's because you're talking about the Imperial gallons used in the UK, which are bigger than US gallons. It's just a guess, but are you?

No...?

We talk about "mpg" here in the United States.

[andi*pandi]

When my father taught me to drive he showed me how to shut the engine off and restart in gear. That was an 84 escort though and had power nuthin'. It was a standard though.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

(ethanol has 3% less energy density than plain gasoline)

You missed a 0 there.

Or are you talking about E10 instead of ethanol?

[downinflames68]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

When my father taught me to drive he showed me how to shut the engine off and restart in gear. That was an 84 escort though and had power nuthin'. It was a standard though.

He probably died because it was SOOOOO dangerous.... am I right?

[downinflames68]

Originally Posted by hayesk 

I saw a Mythbusters episode on drafting once. Now I know their pseudo-science is not rock solid, but it was pretty clear that to draft close enough to another vehicle to see the fuel economy benefit of drafting, you have to tailgate at an extremely close and dangerous distance.

Depends on what kind of drafting. There are ways to draft tractor trailers that doesn't even involve being behind them.

[downinflames68]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

As I said, just because it's not obvious to you doesn't mean that the Mini's body isn't more aerodynamic than you assume. Also as I said, with more advanced, more precise mechanicals, especially in terms of injectors, a newer engine can be much more fuel conservative than even a very well tuned and monitored older engine. Finally, I did mention getting near 60MPG being "an extreme case," didn't I? But I can "see" getting within sight of 50MPG with a new, well tuned and carefully driven Mini that's almost totally a highway-only car. Maybe not a fun way to drive it, but possible.

Dude. I know a decent amount about aero, considering how much time I've spent reading about it. My thesis project was about aerodynamics... and I've done CFD with 3d models to tweak the aero of shapes, including some assistance from Volvo. So. Um.

Minis are not aerodynamic. At all. The CD on an S is .36, and .35 on a regular one. That is not very good, at all.

As for the engine being so much newer... it does not matter much. I understand that you know a lot about computers, but we have not seen a drastic increase in the performance of automobiles either in efficiency or power in the past 15 years, like we have with computing. Part of this is due to so many cars being saddled with heavy safety crap, but it results in cars that are about as fast as cars from 1995, with less efficiency. A honda D15 with lean burn is actually an EXTREMELY frugal engine; you have to remember that today, it is extremely hard to find a car that has less than 100hp. Back in the early 90s, there were a lot of cars that had less than 100hp. And to make more power, you need to burn more gas. I'm not trying to be a dick, but I think you're overstepping your bounds on this topic. And its' fine, I'm glad that you're interested in the efficiency of vehicles, but I think you need to do some more research.

[downinflames68]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

What makes you think that? Quite the contrary, I called you out for giving bad information to those who might be clueless.

I'd ask "how?" but then I remembered that you're the guy who thinks I need to put it into first to restart it on the freeway. So I guess I'm not going to ask how, and instead just let you to continue to exist in your own little world where you're actually intelligent.

[Cold Warrior]

See ya.

[Railroader]

Thank you.

[brassplayersrock²]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Thank you.

Thank you.

[Railroader]

Your welcome.