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persquare · Oct 17, 2000, 04:49 PM

Forgive me if this is slightly off-topic, but please read on.
The number of scientific apps written for the mac has decreased and I find the fact that Matlab isn't going to be forwarded to OSX alarming (at least to people in my area: signal processing).

However, a lot of nice open source/GPLd etc software exist for different flavours of UNIX.

Thus, it would be nice to gather people working on such ports, to share code/experience etc. A start could be simply listing the software needs.

Comments/suggestions?

stardoc · Oct 18, 2000, 11:45 AM

Hi again persquare, I'm planning (once my OS X disk gets here) to immediately try to get xmgr or xmgrace up and running since I use that almost exclusively for my science and journal plotting. I think it is a great idea to set up a repository of science apps.

In the short term someone could set up a web page linking to various efforts underway. (I have plenty of disk space, if not time...)

How about it scientists and engineers, let's act like we want to be able to do our real work under OS X!

persquare · Oct 19, 2000, 04:14 PM

Seems we're the only scientist around, stardoc ;-)

Anyhow, I'm working on porting Octave and once that its working (almost there...) I'll probably look into gnuplot (rumored to run on OSX).

An idea for the future is to have some kind of Aqua front end to a collection of CLI-apps, cf TexShop & teTeX.

As for a sw repository, space is infinite, time is not! But a simple link page with some kind of UBB/maillist would suffice for the moment.

How's that for a start?

crazyjohnson · Oct 19, 2000, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by persquare:
An idea for the future is to have some kind of Aqua front end to a collection of CLI-apps, cf TexShop & teTeX.

Yes. What about Textures, there is an X-Windows version of it out - how about porting it to OS X?

stardoc · Oct 20, 2000, 01:53 AM

Not too many science people here, huh? (HEY MODERATORS! Could you post a note to the main web page calling attention to this thread?)

Yes, teTeX is important! (tho a CLI is fine for me.) I guess that really means ghostview etc. as well. I will eventually want python under OS X. For now I have a copy which runs fine under 9.0.4, so I assume it would run as a classic app for now... But it would presumably suffer from running that way, right?

What is the story about RPM? Is there a Mac OS X savvy version or is the OS file system to different from other unix flavors? My OS X disk has arrived but I haven't installed yet, so forgive the triviality of the question.

Overall, once I get OS X in place, I just want to start compiling my programs (and some astronomy packages) to get an idea of how straight forward it will be to come up to speed.

Marshall · Oct 20, 2000, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by stardoc:
I will eventually want python under OS X. For now I have a copy which runs fine under 9.0.4, so I assume it would run as a classic app for now... But it would presumably suffer from running that way, right?

Python is already available:
http://softrak.stepwise.com/Apps/Web...age=1329&os=20 .

What is the story about RPM? Is there a Mac OS X savvy version or is the OS file system to different from other unix flavors? My OS X disk has arrived but I haven't installed yet, so forgive the triviality of the question.

By RPM do you mean the package manager used by Red Hat? I think I've only seen that used by Red Hat Linux itself.

Mac OS X has its own "pkg" format to be used with the included Installer application. A pkg is actually a directory wrapper containing a pax.gz file and some metadata (including things like post-install shell scripts). This is what is used for the Mac OS X installation, the Developer Tools installation, and packages created by the PackageMaker developer tool.

For most graphical user applications on the system, required application files will be stored in the application's bundle, so a package tool that places files all over the system will be unnecessary; StuffIt and gnutar will probably handle most of those.

I seem to remember Apple talking about using Debian's package format; perhaps this was just for Darwin, I'm not sure. I also remember seeing that Apple was listed as participating in a group to standardize on a BSD package format. I'm not that familiar with either of these, however.

If by RPM you meant something else, I apologize for this somewhat lengthy explanation.

persquare · Oct 20, 2000, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by crazyjohnson:
Yes. What about Textures, there is an X-Windows version of it out - how about porting it to OS X?

As far as I know, Textures is proprietary sw. Several other (free) versions of tex/latex.packages exist, e.g. teTeX which is available for OSX. TexShop is a GUI for teTeX along the lines of Textures.
See: http://www.uoregon.edu/~koch/texshop/texshop.html

bashyal · Oct 20, 2000, 11:08 AM

I am not a scientist per se, but I _am_ interested in computational science, and mathematical visualization. So anyway, I have started to look at OpenDX (it used to be an IBM product, but they have open souced it now). I have just only started looking at it and looks pretty cool. But, it seems to use Motif and Imagemagick. So, we'll see how that goes. For more info take a look at www.opendx.org

Andrew [Not Registered] · Oct 20, 2000, 09:34 PM

A nice GUI app for DocBook editing would be nice. It seems nicer than LaTeX for computer docs.

Andrew

stardoc · Oct 21, 2000, 12:55 AM

Thanks Marshal for the python info. Re RPM, yes, I was refering to the Redhat Package Manager--which BTW runs on many Unix platforms. My thought was that perhaps a source-code only rpm could maybe just be installed/compiled if the paths could be translated appropriately. Then all of the RPM'd packages that aren't coded for specific h/w would be readily available... Maybe that's just naive though, I don't know. In anyevent, RPM packages are designed the same way as what you described (files + scripts + a bit of internal documentation).

persquare · Oct 21, 2000, 07:03 AM

Hi Marshall & stardoc,
Linux Journal (Aug. 2000) had an article about a Java Class to manage RPM content. The source is available at: http://jymengant.ifrance.com/jymenga...wspersonal.htm

bashyal; thanx for the link to OpenDX, it looks very impressive

neutrino · Oct 23, 2000, 11:59 PM

Here is another scientist. teTeX works just fine on OS X. I've been using is already for a while.
I also desperately need FORTRAN. I tried to build g77 and f2c, with no luck. Any success story?

persquare · Oct 24, 2000, 07:29 AM

I also desperately need FORTRAN. I tried to build g77 and f2c, with no luck. Any success story?

I was sent this script http://itsmac32.its.hk-r.se/buildf2c
It works perfectly, just make sure you're conncted to the internet or comment out the wget command if you have the f2c.tar file.

(I don't have the info on who wrote it right now, I'll add it later)

[This message has been edited by persquare (edited 10-24-2000).]

crazyjohnson · Oct 24, 2000, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by persquare:
As far as I know, Textures is proprietary sw. Several other (free) versions of tex/latex.packages exist, e.g. teTeX which is available for OSX. TexShop is a GUI for teTeX along the lines of Textures.
See: http://www.uoregon.edu/~koch/texshop/texshop.html

I use Textures on my Mac now - and want to run something like it under OS X (not in classic), does TexShop have macros like textures does?

stardoc · Oct 26, 2000, 12:13 AM

Ouch. I finally installed OS X and feel like I've been bombed into the stone age. I'm sure I'll get used to it, but the experience is nothing like either unix or mac.

Well anyway, I've started work porting an image subtraction and photometry package (I'll give the ref if anyone wants it). So far I've already run across the line terminator issue (I'll have to brush up on tr and the relevant octal codes to convert between the flavors of ASCII) and a compile-time failure--still experimenting here tho.

As an aside, can anyone tell me how to boot back into OS 9.0.4 (and thence back into X)? I installed OS X onto the same partition as OS 9.

crazyjohnson · Oct 26, 2000, 07:49 AM

Originally posted by stardoc:
As an aside, can anyone tell me how to boot back into OS 9.0.4 (and thence back into X)? I installed OS X onto the same partition as OS 9.

I dont think you can. If you installed on a sep. partition then you could just choose a different start up disk. Your are in 9 when you launch classic (almost) - - I would try to look to change startup disks, but doubt that would work, cause you dont got another start up disk.

gabrielf · Oct 26, 2000, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by stardoc:
As an aside, can anyone tell me how to boot back into OS 9.0.4 (and thence back into X)? I installed OS X onto the same partition as OS 9.

From X to 9
In X go into the System Preferences and click on Startup Disk then choose the OS you want to boot with. I think it works because in Startup Disk you acctually choose the System folder you want to start with not the disk as the name imply.

From 9 to X
You can't choose to boot X with the old control panel but in the OS X install there is a OS 9 program included with the name System Disk. It'll let you choose X as the startup OS.

I havn't tried it (have them installed on different disks) but from what I've heard it should work. If you can't find the OS 9 Startup Disk program it's possible to download it from Apple's website.

Good Luck!

/Gabbe

stardoc · Oct 28, 2000, 09:10 PM

[ Sorry, this is off thread.] I tried to use the system prefs but that didn't work. Eventually I booted with my 9.0 CD and dragged the OS X files into another folder, and renamed the System folder--then dragged my OS 9 sysfolder up to the root level of my disk and tried to reboot. Got yaboot and nothing else--not sure how that get a hold of the boot process. I don't recall what I did next, but eventually I got 9.0.4 to come alive tho there was significant filesystem damage that disk 1st aid and then the micromat tool fixed. It was a minor pain. When I reinstall X, I'll certainly put it on a different partition---but I'll need to repartition...

[Sorry again for the off thread...]

*doc

Oct 29, 2000, 02:34 PM

I am interested in scientific applications, libraries ...

I tried to compile atlas (www.netlib.org/atlas). But that didn't work. Did anybody try ? Or maybe with other C standard scientific libraries ?

pmcd · Oct 29, 2000, 08:36 PM

Textures is currently a Mac only application put out by Blue Sky. Nice version of TeX/LaTeX actually but the company will not be moving their stuff to OSX until they get their windows' port done which says something about them (and I own it, but am definitely moving away). From a commercial point of view there's Scientific Assistant which also provides a very nice GUI to LaTeX. Unfortunately the Scientific Workplace people had stopped Mac development a couple of years ago (nice front-end to LaTeX and Maple). There's another GUI to LaTeX that is Open Source. It's called LyX and runs under X Windows on Linux and other Unix systems. It's very promising.

S+ is in the same boat as MatLab. Both R and RLab (Open Source) would make for nice alternatives. The MatLab thing is really unsettling though.

Philip

Originally posted by crazyjohnson:
Yes. What about Textures, there is an X-Windows version of it out - how about porting it to OS X?

persquare · Oct 30, 2000, 05:11 AM

Originally posted by Nico:
I am interested in scientific applications, libraries ...

I tried to compile atlas (www.netlib.org/atlas). But that didn't work. Did anybody try ? Or maybe with other C standard scientific libraries ?

I'm working on a port of Octave which relies heavily on scientific libs. Most libs compile without problem, but remember that libm should _not_ be linked (-lm) since the stuff is provided by the standard framworks.

S+ is in the same boat as MatLab. Both R and RLab (Open Source) would make for nice alternatives. The MatLab thing is really unsettling though.

Thanx for the tip on RLab, I had forgotten about it!

BillStevenson · Oct 31, 2000, 12:44 PM

I wrote in on the main page to bitch about MathWorks not developing for the Mac anymore, but I was taken a little out of context [that's how news works...] Anyway, if you haven't already, please to contact mathworks at [email protected] and urge them to bring MATLAB back, perhaps starting with OS X. The thing that ticks me off is that they have a Linux version and no Mac version. Most people who run x86 Linux also run Windows, so it seems like a misallocation of resources when they could be maintaining the product on multiple architectures. The most twisted thing of all is that they don't sell a Mac student version but they have student versions for Windows and Linux -- how to they expect a need to come up if they don't let students (the future professionals) buy in?!? It seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy- they are killing the macintosh as an educational tool (I admit Apple could be better in education- but they are working on that as I write this!)

crazyjohnson · Oct 31, 2000, 01:02 PM

I think I remember someone telling me that Blue Sky had a Linux version out as well. How does TexShop compare at all to Textures. I use Texture alot and think that it is the best. How will it compare to using TexShop on OS X?

Originally posted by pmcd:
Textures is currently a Mac only application put out by Blue Sky. Nice version of TeX/LaTeX actually but the company will not be moving their stuff to OSX until they get their windows' port done which says something about them (and I own it, but am definitely moving away). From a commercial point of view there's Scientific Assistant which also provides a very nice GUI to LaTeX. Unfortunately the Scientific Workplace people had stopped Mac development a couple of years ago (nice front-end to LaTeX and Maple). There's another GUI to LaTeX that is Open Source. It's called LyX and runs under X Windows on Linux and other Unix systems. It's very promising.

QuatermassX · Nov 2, 2000, 10:51 AM

I am a managing web developer responsible for Math-related sites for a large publishing company. I would urge Apple to work VERY closely with IBM's TechExplorer group in making sure this CRUCIAL technology is QUICKLY integrated into OSX.
http://www-4.ibm.com/software/network/techexplorer/

There's been lots of work toward ActiveX integration of the product already :-/